Removal of escrow.ms? Update: Recommend users for DT 2, as escrow.ms is removed

[SebastianJu]

Just out of curiosity how do you find out what DT level  yourself or another member is on, is there a complete list available somewhere?
Can anyone tell me on what level i am on?

https://bitcointalk.org/trust.txt.xz
or in trust setting- Hierarchical view

currently you in DT level 4 under me

@monbux finally, congratz

I downloaded that file but how do i read it?

For example I see that theymos has phantastisch on trust. And phantastisch has me trusted. Does that mean Iam on default trust level 2 now again?

[Lutpin]

For example I see that theymos has phantastisch on trust. And phantastisch has me trusted. Does that mean Iam on default trust level 2 now again?

You are in DT2, but not on that route.
You are on the downlist of Blazed (DT1).
theymos (DT1 aswell) has phantastisch in his list (-> DT2), which would put you on DT3.

or in trust setting- Hierarchical view
currently you in DT level 4 under me

No longer.

[SebastianJu]

It's a common misconception that one's trust list is a list of people who you extra-special-trust. Really it's a list of people who you believe have given accurate ratings and will continue to do so -- it's not necessary to actually trust them all that much otherwise. And likewise, if someone is very trustworthy but never leaves trust ratings, then it's somewhat pointless to add them to your trust list.

A lot of people are using the term "DT" in a confusing way... I wrote a vocabulary post about this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=891261.0

I tend to think that with the current trust we have three levels of how members should vote. First is untrusted and trusted from someone on default trust 2. Their trust ratings does not really mean much since they only show up on untrusted feedback and very few check there.

Next is default trust 2. Which means you have to be a lot more cautious who you trust now since your trust shows up for everyone. Your trust means you can trust this person and you show this to everyone. So it is not a thing of "a trade went well" anymore. You need to think of the person of someone you somehow got the impression of that you can trust him.

Being switched to default trust meant that i had to deal with that since i received a whole thread of complaints about it. So i created a new trust policy for me as escrow:

* No trust rating to account sellers, buyers or the account traded generally. Because i cant tell if the buyer is using the bought account from now on or if he will sell it shortly after. And i cant tell if a seller is selling the seller account shortly after too.
* No trust rating at all to escrowed amounts worth <$50.
* Deals where i was escrow should not get green trust since there is no risk involved to buyer and seller. So i can give a neutral trust (see trust options, neutral is a comment only and doesnt affect the rating) to them when rule 2 does not apply. I will state the escrowed amount as risked btc and mention that it is the escrowed amount.
* Exceptions of the above rules are possible if i trust a person really. Have the impression that he showed he is a honest guy or something like that.
* I will only give one trust rating and try to put all ratings in one rating.

Guess you have a lot more responsibility on that level.

Edited a part out. It seems like the normal trust rating are handled the same like with on default trust 2. Only the trust list is putting someone on default trust 2.

[SebastianJu]

Started to rework my list. Like others, I was looking at adding users in the wrong way (based on trades). I based my additions on how much they help out and feedback left. I will likely be tweaking this list more very soon. I hope a semi-democratic list helps out around here. Seems like OgNasty being DT1 is pretty much useless according to Theymos's definition of how trust should work since his list is basicly empty?

A way to not give wrong trust too.

Anyway, what is the difference between you giving green trust to a user the normal way and you putting a user into your trust settings? Is it the same basically? If so then you have to be really cautious now. Though i think you already found out.

Well, it looks like a lot of work to me.

[SebastianJu]

Alright, so I was added to DT1 and am willing to add a few users if they truly deserve it (people I have overlooked). Feel free to make suggestions of people I should add (obviously I need reasons).

Edit: I will be very active with my list...

I hear that QS has been a pretty good Scam Buster in the past

You know how to give me a great laugh. Though i think you did not mean that too serious anyway. It looks way too impossible anyway.

I think I would be a good addition to the DT network, as I was in the past. I don't think you can deny that most of what happened with me was because of people's emotions getting the best of them. BadBear removed me because I was less then honest about being banned, and really removed me because of this post. Tomatocage removed me because he was under intense pressure by others to do so. Dooglus excluded me because he routinely does things to sites that allows him to steal money that is similar to what tspacepilot did to coinchat and does not want to endanger his reputation (he similarly excluded BAC when BAC called out dooglus for giving inside information re CLAMs).

There are a very small number of ratings in which other, reputable members have suggested that I should remove such negative ratings, and the single complaint about a positive rating was from someone advising that an account was recently sold. 

I had to laugh because you are so consistent on holding on your account even though it looks pretty unlikely getting the red trust away.

I agree you are a good spambuster but you might remember that i at least once spoke against your red trust. I think you gave red trust way too freely. Red trust can practically destroy an account and it seems to me the complaints about your ratings were not only from scammers but from people who genuinely felt their feeling of justice hurt.

Can happen easily.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Alright, so I was added to DT1 and am willing to add a few users if they truly deserve it (people I have overlooked). Feel free to make suggestions of people I should add (obviously I need reasons).

Edit: I will be very active with my list...

I hear that QS has been a pretty good Scam Buster in the past

You know how to give me a great laugh. Though i think you did not mean that too serious anyway. It looks way too impossible anyway.

I think I would be a good addition to the DT network, as I was in the past. I don't think you can deny that most of what happened with me was because of people's emotions getting the best of them. BadBear removed me because I was less then honest about being banned, and really removed me because of this post. Tomatocage removed me because he was under intense pressure by others to do so. Dooglus excluded me because he routinely does things to sites that allows him to steal money that is similar to what tspacepilot did to coinchat and does not want to endanger his reputation (he similarly excluded BAC when BAC called out dooglus for giving inside information re CLAMs).

There are a very small number of ratings in which other, reputable members have suggested that I should remove such negative ratings, and the single complaint about a positive rating was from someone advising that an account was recently sold. 

Most of what happened to you was because of your "self escrow" and you're obviously still in denial about how dishonest that is.

[SebastianJu]

For example I see that theymos has phantastisch on trust. And phantastisch has me trusted. Does that mean Iam on default trust level 2 now again?

You are in DT2, but not on that route.
You are on the downlist of Blazed (DT1).
theymos (DT1 aswell) has phantastisch in his list (-> DT2), which would put you on DT3.

Ah thanks for the explaination and thanks Blazed on adding me again. I did not see me added on the list i downloaded some hours ago.

In fact i had thought that theymos was default trust 0 and everyone on default trust one got his trust from theymos. It would make sense since someone had to add them. Though as admin you don't really need to use the trust system for that i guess. Only backend change.

So the list can't tell you who is default trust 1 since there is no notice about the level. You only can judge from ratings when you know someone is default trust x.

[Blazed]

Started to rework my list. Like others, I was looking at adding users in the wrong way (based on trades). I based my additions on how much they help out and feedback left. I will likely be tweaking this list more very soon. I hope a semi-democratic list helps out around here. Seems like OgNasty being DT1 is pretty much useless according to Theymos's definition of how trust should work since his list is basicly empty?

A way to not give wrong trust too.

Anyway, what is the difference between you giving green trust to a user the normal way and you putting a user into your trust settings? Is it the same basically? If so then you have to be really cautious now. Though i think you already found out.

Well, it looks like a lot of work to me.

If I add someone to my list (like I added you) they become DT2 members and their feedback shows up for everyone. If I leave feedback it is the same as before.

[Lutpin]

Anyway, what is the difference between you giving green trust to a user the normal way and you putting a user into your trust settings? Is it the same basically? If so then you have to be really cautious now. Though i think you already found out.

Did you read the post by theymos you replied to? Did you read the thread he linked? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=891261.0
If you give a positive trust to a user, that will result in a change of his trust score for all those users who got you in their trust network. If you're on DT1 or DT2, your ratings will be shown as "trusted" with default settings.
If you put a user into your trust list, that will include him into your trust network and show that users trust ratings as "trusted" for you (and those from users in their trust list,... / depending on your trust depth).

* I will only give one trust rating and try to put all ratings in one rating.

Actually, since trust ages, and only your oldest trust influences the rating, you can easily leave a new trust for every reason you have to give a user a trust rating.
Giving 2 trusts wont affect his score, as giving 2 negs won't either (compared to giving only one of them). Deleting and reposting however, can result in a lower overall score, since the first trust might have already aged.

I had to laugh because you are so consistent on holding on your account even though it looks pretty unlikely getting the red trust away.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think QS is back to 0 on default settings.

Ah thanks for the explaination and thanks Blazed on adding me again. I did not see me added on the list i downloaded some hours ago.

That list is updated weekly on Saturdays. Balzed probably added you after the latest update of the trust.txt.xy

[Quickseller]

I had to laugh because you are so consistent on holding on your account even though it looks pretty unlikely getting the red trust away.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think QS is back to 0 on default settings.

I believe you are mistaken. It looks like I am in your trust network because of your custom trust settings.

[Lutpin]

I had to laugh because you are so consistent on holding on your account even though it looks pretty unlikely getting the red trust away.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think QS is back to 0 on default settings.

I believe you are mistaken. It looks like I am in your trust network because of your custom trust settings.

You are, but what I was talking about is this:  "Trust: 0: -4 / +17" (taken from an account with a clean trust list)
Your overall trust rating on default settings is back to a 0 (-> a black rating, with an orange -4).

With my trust settings that would be a "Trust: -9: -5 / +23 Warning: Trade with extreme caution!" btw.

[Quickseller]

I had to laugh because you are so consistent on holding on your account even though it looks pretty unlikely getting the red trust away.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think QS is back to 0 on default settings.

I believe you are mistaken. It looks like I am in your trust network because of your custom trust settings.

You are, but what I was talking about is this: "Trust:    0: -4 / +17"
Your overall trust rating on default settings is back to a 0 (-> a black rating, with an orange -4).

With my trust settings that would be a "Trust: -9: -5 / +23 Warning: Trade with extreme caution!" btw.

Yes that is correct.

I thought you were referring to someone adding me back into the DT network

[Lutpin]

Yes that is correct.
I thought you were referring to someone adding me back into the DT network

Nope, only was talking about your trust rating.

[whywefight]

I had to laugh because you are so consistent on holding on your account even though it looks pretty unlikely getting the red trust away.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think QS is back to 0 on default settings.

I believe you are mistaken. It looks like I am in your trust network because of your custom trust settings.

Before i kicked dt out i noticed qs doesnt have those ?? ?? anymore

Ah lutpin wrote it

[--Encrypted--]

I had to laugh because you are so consistent on holding on your account even though it looks pretty unlikely getting the red trust away.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think QS is back to 0 on default settings.

I believe you are mistaken. It looks like I am in your trust network because of your custom trust settings.

Before i kicked dt out i noticed qs doesnt have those ?? ?? anymore

Ah lutpin wrote it

mexxer-2 and RHavar (not completely sure about this one) got added to the DT so he got more positives.

[Lutpin]

mexxer-2 and RHavar (not completely sure about this one) got added to the DT so he got more positives.

RHavar moved from DT4 to DT3 with mexxer moving from DT3 to DT2.

uh nope. Rhavar is on DT2 with bare DefaultTrust list. not sure who added him as he's not on Blazed's list. (and you're in his list, in case you missed.)

RHavar is in dooglus's trust list

Yep, my bad.

[Quickseller]

I had to laugh because you are so consistent on holding on your account even though it looks pretty unlikely getting the red trust away.

I technically have neutral trust right now. However even when I did have "red" trust, (eg a "trade with extreme caution" tag), I was able to participate in signature deals, was able to engage in trades at favorable prices/rates to me, and was entrusted with multiple other people's money in fairly decent amounts. I also feel that I have a decent amount of respect.

I agree you are a good spambuster but you might remember that i at least once spoke against your red trust. I think you gave red trust way too freely. Red trust can practically destroy an account and it seems to me the complaints about your ratings were not only from scammers but from people who genuinely felt their feeling of justice hurt.

I don't think any QS threads were created by anyone who did not have a negative rating from me.

Some people may say that I was quick to leave a negative rating, however I never left a negative rating without evaluating all of the facts and information available to me. I was also very rarely incorrect about someone being a scammer, and when I was outright wrong, I would quickly remove any negative trust that I left when evidence is presented that shows I was wrong (case in point ndnhcas the evidence that I presented stood up to scrutiny for several days, and once ndnhc pointed out something that no one else did I removed my negative rating and apologized).

For the most part I never left negative trust unless something was actually stolen, or if there was a clear attempt to steal (or an alt thereof)

[whywefight]

I had to laugh because you are so consistent on holding on your account even though it looks pretty unlikely getting the red trust away.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think QS is back to 0 on default settings.

I believe you are mistaken. It looks like I am in your trust network because of your custom trust settings.

Before i kicked dt out i noticed qs doesnt have those ?? ?? anymore

Ah lutpin wrote it

mexxer-2 and RHavar (not completely sure about this one) got added to the DT so he got more positives.

Well i decided to add him to my list too. I dont trust him but somehow his ratings. Also i might not agree with him sometimes but somehow i have some respect left for him. He is a bit harsh sometimes. Sounds strange i know. Cant really decide.

Doesnt mean i wouldnt trade with him. My view might be blurred because i am sick of reading the qs/vod/dooglus/bac etc drama storries all over the forum...

[--Encrypted--]

mexxer-2 and RHavar (not completely sure about this one) got added to the DT so he got more positives.

RHavar moved from DT4 to DT3 with mexxer moving from DT3 to DT2.

uh nope. Rhavar is on DT2 with bare DefaultTrust list. not sure who added him as he's not on Blazed's list. (and you're in his list, in case you missed.)

[Quickseller]

mexxer-2 and RHavar (not completely sure about this one) got added to the DT so he got more positives.

RHavar moved from DT4 to DT3 with mexxer moving from DT3 to DT2.

uh nope. Rhavar is on DT2 with bare DefaultTrust list. not sure who added him as he's not on Blazed's list. (and you're in his list, in case you missed.)

RHavar is in dooglus's trust list