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Author Topic: [ANN][XRB]Cryptocurrency's killer app: RaiBlocks micropayments  (Read 774983 times)
fracas
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January 01, 2018, 06:08:58 PM
 #9501

To all newcomers to Raiblocks

If you are new to Bitcointalk you may not realize how things work around here. Ask yourself this - why would someone who states that Raiblocks is crap/a pump and dump/full of flaws, etc. keep coming on here posting the same thing over and over again even though it has already been addressed numerous times before? Because they care about noobs and want to protect them from the big bad Raiblocks dev stealing their money? LOL, I think not.

There are 3 reasons for these FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) posts:

1) Usually the person posting the FUD is actually holding the coin they are bashing - they make negative posts in an attempt to drive down the price so they can buy more.

2) They may also be holding a competing coin (IOTA for example) and they are angry that another coin has taken the spotlight away from them. You can spot people in this group as they will often have a signature advertising another coin or they will shill it directly in their post.

3) Pure saltiness. This forum has really gone downhill over the years and it is now filled with desperate, salty children who are angry that they missed the boat.

The world is full of toxic people who cannot accomplish anything on their own so they try to make themselves feel better by attacking other people's accomplishments. Ignore them and DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!

Blacklisted users that are here to spread FUD:

fracas: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1018688;sa=showPosts
xibeijan: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=110938;sa=showPosts
djpitagora: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1264506;sa=showPosts
cr1pton00b: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1557981;sa=showPosts

read their past posts and decide for yourself.

Blacklisted by who? Who are you? Can't we say our opinion? This sounds really nazi. But what to expect... censor everyone tells anything different so people don't get the point.

Come on, tell me this is FUD too:
- http://boards.4chan.org/biz/thread/5647016/holy-shit-xrb-scam-detected

Ah ok, now I understand... you get your crypto advice from 4chan. That explains everything LMFAO

It's clear you haven't clicked because if you did you would have discovered one of the many proofs of flawed "official" XRB exchange with easy price manipulation.

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January 01, 2018, 06:14:11 PM
 #9502

I have just discovered a curious thing, Bittrex listed and immediately removed XRB in past times:
- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1381323.2000

During Bittrex testing XRB chain went down 2 days. So the exchange decided to remove the coin immediately. Of course no dev even mentioned it.

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January 01, 2018, 06:35:24 PM
 #9503

I have just discovered a curious thing, Bittrex listed and immediately removed XRB in past times:
- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1381323.2000

During Bittrex testing XRB chain went down 2 days. So the exchange decided to remove the coin immediately. Of course no dev even mentioned it.

OMG, great catch! Bittrex went through the trouble of adding XRB and then removed it 2 days later - it must be a scam. EXIT NOW EVERYONE, THE SKY IS FALLING - SELL SELL SELL. IT IS A SCAM! XRB DEV IS SMART BUT NOT SMART ENOUGH TO CHEAT FRACAS!!!


As I said before, you are a complete imbecile.
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January 01, 2018, 06:55:20 PM
 #9504

Yeah, sure, we are all FUDders.

If you say that FAUCET distribution has been flawed and then stopped because of BOTs taking everything you are a FUDder:
- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1381323.8040 BOTs solving CAPTCHAs obtaining more than 200.000 XRB per day cheating for weeks\months, totally flawed distribution

If you say that it's a premined coin with most of it in the hands of creators you are a FUDder:
- https://raiblocks.net/page/frontiers.php

If you say it's not on legit exchange yet and it's price is manipulated, driven by exchange bug you are a FUDder:
- they allowed the price to be bug-driven (noob exchange bug that let people match orders in stead of clearing order book), they even admitted it (after letting the price go to moon). But you are anyway a FUDder when you say Bitgrail is a noob exchange.

If you say that they have the noobest wallet around even seen you are a FUDder, then you start wallet and you are back in the 90s.

If you say that they never have proven either in testnet more than 10tx/s (they promise 7000tx/s) you are a FUDder, now they do 7000tx/day and almost everything from wallet to webwallet to explorer crash.

If you say that their coin is not used at all for microtransactions (except 2 pathetics shop without users) you are a FUDder, even if people care just about getting rich.

If you say Cryptopia delisted it because it made the exchange crash you are a FUDder even if it actually happened.

If you say it's centralized because you have to trust main holders (to validate transaction\representatives) you are a FUDder.

Comepared to being held hostage to miners, yes it's more decentralized. And they're already working on making it easier for people to contribute to network strength and decentralization.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ZackShapiro/status/947575861246603264

You're not even addressing people's arguments. You're repeating the same old ones knowingly.
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January 01, 2018, 06:57:17 PM
 #9505

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January 01, 2018, 07:00:01 PM
 #9506

- https://raiblocks.net/page/representatives.php (the Official Representatives control 56% of the representation of all RaiBlocks)
Encourage users to make your account representative. Sometimes one pool had more than 50% of hashrate in Bitcoin network = Bitcoin is centralized

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January 01, 2018, 07:10:36 PM
 #9507

- https://raiblocks.net/page/representatives.php (the Official Representatives control 56% of the representation of all RaiBlocks)
Encourage users to make your account representative. Sometimes one pool had more than 50% of hashrate in Bitcoin network = Bitcoin is centralized

Please read the whole post to understand the flaw
Quote
Why RaiBlocks is not secure.

In this article I will try to explain why RaiBlocks is not secure and why its technology is any better neither comparable than the Bitcoin technology.

1. Decentralized payments
Decentralized payment networks are, in opposite of centralized payment network like banks, a way to secure your money without having the risk that a central authority could steal your money or manipulate the money in the market. Decentralized payment networks use asymmetric cryptography to ensure that you are the only one who can spend your money.
When you create a cryptocurrency wallet you are given a public key and a private key. The public key allows other people to send you money, while the private key allows you to spend them.  

But how other users know how many money do you have?
To accomplish this, every user of a decentralized payment network must download the entire transaction database which is replicated on the entire network. When you send a payment over the network, it is received by all the users connected on the network allowing them to know your updated wallet balance and allowing them to discard that payment if you don’t own enough funds.

2. Double Spending
The main problem that afflicts decentralized payment networks is double spending: the ability of an user to spend his money multiple times. In the real world, when you pay someone you give him the real cash. In a centralized payment network, like VISA, the central database is updated every time you make a payment, and they will not allow you to spend more money than your balance.
In a decentralized payment network what happens if you send the same amount of money on two users of the network in the same time? Since their database takes time to update for a small amount of time they both will receive the payment and accept it. In a later moment, when the network tells them that you double spent your money, they will cancel the payment, this is possible because every payment is broadcasted to the entire network, not only the receiver.
Without any other security layer, if a malicious user double spends his money and succeeds to block a payment receiver to know that he sent the same money to someone else (or even better, to another wallet of his own), the payment receiver will accept the payment and ship the good. This is so bad, since even a network connection problem could temporarily lead a payment receiver to undetect double spendings.

3. The Bitcoin Solution
To solve this problem, Bitcoin relays on the fact that after you receive a payment you need to wait a confirmation block, the confirmation block tells you that the payment you have received has been accepted by the entire network and you are allowed to spend it. To create a confirmation block, the miners create a list of all the pending unconfirmed transactions and solve a very difficult mathematical puzzle. The miner who solves the puzzle first, sends the block he found with all the list of confirmed transaction and the solved puzzle to the network, the users of the network will check if the puzzle solution is valid and then reward him with some free coins plus the sum of all the payment fees of each transaction in the block. The miners must create a valid list of payments to be accepted by the network, so double spend attempts are just discarded.

In Bitcoin an attacker,  to make a succesful double spending, should not just stop you from receiving a double spend attempt message, but he should also solve the puzzle to create a confirmation block in a reasonable time frame. Currently solving that puzzle with a single computer would take years; at writing time to solve that puzzle a network of thousands dedicated hardware is used, an attacker would require a billionaire investment to replicate that network. Moreover, it would not only need to create one confirmation block but six of them (6 confirmation blocks are required in the Bitcoin network to trust a payment).

Critics of Bitcoin say that all the computation power used to make the Bitcoin network secure is just a waste of energy because there are other reliable and better technologies. Is that true?

4. What is RaiBlocks?
RaiBlocks is a crypto currency that advertises itself as a fast, fee-less and secure currency, unlikely Bitcoin which is currently slow and high-fee (usually requires 1 hour to a full payment confirmation).
But the key point is that Bitcoin has been made that way to guarantee his users a certain amount of security to prevent double spendings.
 
RaiBlocks completely ignores the Bitcoin technology and relies on a special version of the Proof Of Stake concept.
When you receive a payment in the RaiBlocks network you have to wait a certain amount of time to be sure that a double spending has not been attempted (and remember the first problem, if an attacker stops you from receiving the double spend you would never know!)
When a double spent is detected, the RaiBlocks network starts a vote. Every peer connected to the network vote to accept the payment A or payment B; every user vote is weighted with the amount of his balance. Usually each peer votes for the first transaction he receives. The transaction which the sum of votes reaches the 51% of online amount of currency wins. The winning transaction is accepted by the network and the other one is discarded. (Reference https://github.com/clemahieu/RaiBlocks/wiki/Double-spending-and-confirmation)

The payment receiver, if his network has not been compromised, will then know if he can trust the payment or not, and will ship the good accordingly. This system leads to an unsolvable problem.

5. The Man in the Middle attack.

If an attacker succeeds to put himself between a merchant and the RaiBlocks network he can just filter the double spending payment packets, and the merchant will never know that he is receiving a double spending. The Raiblocks network will discard that payment while the merchant will accept it.

https://s18.postimg.org/7pnm6yweh/doublespend.png

6. Solutions proposed by the RaiBlocks team

a) The merchant should ask a vote for each payment he receives and wait for the confirmation.
The problem is that the attacker could manipulate the vote by telling the merchant that only his peers are connected to the network thus he will win the vote by filtering only his votes. Plus, asking a vote for each payment would cause a huge increment of bandwidth usage that many peers could not handle.

b) The merchant should have a remote node verifying the payment.
The attacker could just attack that network too.

c) The merchant should ask the RaiBlocks.net website if the payment has been accepted.
The attacker can hack the RaiBlocks.net website. Also if you have to rely on a website you can no longer consider RaiBlocks a decentralized network.

Other solutions

1) A payment to be accepted should require a vote with a minimum weight quorum.
It's difficult to establish a correct quorum, and if that quorum is offline no payments will be processed.

2) A payment need to be accepted by some trusted representatives.
This will stop the network on being decentralized. Also, if those representatives are offline the payments are not processed.

7. Why Bitcoin is not vulnerable to this type of attack
Simply because an attacker, to be trusted by a merchant, would require to solve a very difficult puzzle for six times. An attacker cannot alter the difficulty of that puzzle.

8. Other observations

a) RaiBlocks is just Bitcoins without the Bitcoin securing algorithm. The creator of Bitcoin, Satoshi Nakamoto, describes the double spending problem in the original Bitcoin paper: https://Bitcoin.org/Bitcoin.pdf. The developer of RaiBlocks just thinks to solve the problem by ignoring the problem.

b) The official representatives of the RaiBlocks network own more than 52% of total voting weight, allowing the developer to manipulate every vote on his will.
Source: https://dev.RaiBlocks.net/page/representatives.php


9. References
https://RaiBlocks.net/media/RaiBlocks_Whitepaper__English.pdf
https://github.com/clemahieu/RaiBlocks/wiki/Double-spending-and-confirmation

I want to say that the core developers of RaiBlocks have admitted the problem in chat. If you want you can join the discussion on discord.
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January 01, 2018, 07:27:31 PM
 #9508

- https://raiblocks.net/page/representatives.php (the Official Representatives control 56% of the representation of all RaiBlocks)
Encourage users to make your account representative. Sometimes one pool had more than 50% of hashrate in Bitcoin network = Bitcoin is centralized

Please read the whole post to understand the flaw
Quote
Why RaiBlocks is not secure.

In this article I will try to explain why RaiBlocks is not secure and why its technology is any better neither comparable than the Bitcoin technology.

1. Decentralized payments
Decentralized payment networks are, in opposite of centralized payment network like banks, a way to secure your money without having the risk that a central authority could steal your money or manipulate the money in the market. Decentralized payment networks use asymmetric cryptography to ensure that you are the only one who can spend your money.
When you create a cryptocurrency wallet you are given a public key and a private key. The public key allows other people to send you money, while the private key allows you to spend them.  

But how other users know how many money do you have?
To accomplish this, every user of a decentralized payment network must download the entire transaction database which is replicated on the entire network. When you send a payment over the network, it is received by all the users connected on the network allowing them to know your updated wallet balance and allowing them to discard that payment if you don’t own enough funds.

2. Double Spending
The main problem that afflicts decentralized payment networks is double spending: the ability of an user to spend his money multiple times. In the real world, when you pay someone you give him the real cash. In a centralized payment network, like VISA, the central database is updated every time you make a payment, and they will not allow you to spend more money than your balance.
In a decentralized payment network what happens if you send the same amount of money on two users of the network in the same time? Since their database takes time to update for a small amount of time they both will receive the payment and accept it. In a later moment, when the network tells them that you double spent your money, they will cancel the payment, this is possible because every payment is broadcasted to the entire network, not only the receiver.
Without any other security layer, if a malicious user double spends his money and succeeds to block a payment receiver to know that he sent the same money to someone else (or even better, to another wallet of his own), the payment receiver will accept the payment and ship the good. This is so bad, since even a network connection problem could temporarily lead a payment receiver to undetect double spendings.

3. The Bitcoin Solution
To solve this problem, Bitcoin relays on the fact that after you receive a payment you need to wait a confirmation block, the confirmation block tells you that the payment you have received has been accepted by the entire network and you are allowed to spend it. To create a confirmation block, the miners create a list of all the pending unconfirmed transactions and solve a very difficult mathematical puzzle. The miner who solves the puzzle first, sends the block he found with all the list of confirmed transaction and the solved puzzle to the network, the users of the network will check if the puzzle solution is valid and then reward him with some free coins plus the sum of all the payment fees of each transaction in the block. The miners must create a valid list of payments to be accepted by the network, so double spend attempts are just discarded.

In Bitcoin an attacker,  to make a succesful double spending, should not just stop you from receiving a double spend attempt message, but he should also solve the puzzle to create a confirmation block in a reasonable time frame. Currently solving that puzzle with a single computer would take years; at writing time to solve that puzzle a network of thousands dedicated hardware is used, an attacker would require a billionaire investment to replicate that network. Moreover, it would not only need to create one confirmation block but six of them (6 confirmation blocks are required in the Bitcoin network to trust a payment).

Critics of Bitcoin say that all the computation power used to make the Bitcoin network secure is just a waste of energy because there are other reliable and better technologies. Is that true?

4. What is RaiBlocks?
RaiBlocks is a crypto currency that advertises itself as a fast, fee-less and secure currency, unlikely Bitcoin which is currently slow and high-fee (usually requires 1 hour to a full payment confirmation).
But the key point is that Bitcoin has been made that way to guarantee his users a certain amount of security to prevent double spendings.
 
RaiBlocks completely ignores the Bitcoin technology and relies on a special version of the Proof Of Stake concept.
When you receive a payment in the RaiBlocks network you have to wait a certain amount of time to be sure that a double spending has not been attempted (and remember the first problem, if an attacker stops you from receiving the double spend you would never know!)
When a double spent is detected, the RaiBlocks network starts a vote. Every peer connected to the network vote to accept the payment A or payment B; every user vote is weighted with the amount of his balance. Usually each peer votes for the first transaction he receives. The transaction which the sum of votes reaches the 51% of online amount of currency wins. The winning transaction is accepted by the network and the other one is discarded. (Reference https://github.com/clemahieu/RaiBlocks/wiki/Double-spending-and-confirmation)

The payment receiver, if his network has not been compromised, will then know if he can trust the payment or not, and will ship the good accordingly. This system leads to an unsolvable problem.

5. The Man in the Middle attack.

If an attacker succeeds to put himself between a merchant and the RaiBlocks network he can just filter the double spending payment packets, and the merchant will never know that he is receiving a double spending. The Raiblocks network will discard that payment while the merchant will accept it.



6. Solutions proposed by the RaiBlocks team

a) The merchant should ask a vote for each payment he receives and wait for the confirmation.
The problem is that the attacker could manipulate the vote by telling the merchant that only his peers are connected to the network thus he will win the vote by filtering only his votes. Plus, asking a vote for each payment would cause a huge increment of bandwidth usage that many peers could not handle.

b) The merchant should have a remote node verifying the payment.
The attacker could just attack that network too.

c) The merchant should ask the RaiBlocks.net website if the payment has been accepted.
The attacker can hack the RaiBlocks.net website. Also if you have to rely on a website you can no longer consider RaiBlocks a decentralized network.

Other solutions

1) A payment to be accepted should require a vote with a minimum weight quorum.
It's difficult to establish a correct quorum, and if that quorum is offline no payments will be processed.

2) A payment need to be accepted by some trusted representatives.
This will stop the network on being decentralized. Also, if those representatives are offline the payments are not processed.

7. Why Bitcoin is not vulnerable to this type of attack
Simply because an attacker, to be trusted by a merchant, would require to solve a very difficult puzzle for six times. An attacker cannot alter the difficulty of that puzzle.

8. Other observations

a) RaiBlocks is just Bitcoins without the Bitcoin securing algorithm. The creator of Bitcoin, Satoshi Nakamoto, describes the double spending problem in the original Bitcoin paper: https://Bitcoin.org/Bitcoin.pdf. The developer of RaiBlocks just thinks to solve the problem by ignoring the problem.

b) The official representatives of the RaiBlocks network own more than 52% of total voting weight, allowing the developer to manipulate every vote on his will.
Source: https://dev.RaiBlocks.net/page/representatives.php


9. References
https://RaiBlocks.net/media/RaiBlocks_Whitepaper__English.pdf
https://github.com/clemahieu/RaiBlocks/wiki/Double-spending-and-confirmation

I want to say that the core developers of RaiBlocks have admitted the problem in chat. If you want you can join the discussion on discord.

Obviously you haven't because if you had you'd realize the person you are responding to, Byte16, is on the Raiblocks team! So I kind of have the feeling he understands the "problem" a little better than you.

The stupid on this thread hurts my head.
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January 01, 2018, 08:00:36 PM
 #9509

The raiblock win64 version 9 wallet does not work at all. Sync hangs since 3 days. Same situation on a second computer. A small transaction vom bitgrail hangs. They offer a snapshoot, but only vor version 8 not version 9.

I think nobody made a test not even a quick test on this. Raiblocks is broken.

Sorry guys, english is not my first language ...
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January 01, 2018, 08:02:04 PM
 #9510

Wow looks like RaiBlocks have large list of problems
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January 01, 2018, 08:06:50 PM
 #9511

Wow looks like RaiBlocks have large list of problems

People are just trading it (in flawed exchange at most), nobody is really using it (7000 tx/day!). As for IOTA when a decent amount of people started to use it problems came.

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January 01, 2018, 08:25:26 PM
 #9512

any news on bigger exchanges? what about the voting contest on binance?

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January 01, 2018, 08:26:57 PM
 #9513

any news on bigger exchanges? what about the voting contest on binance?

In current vote it is winning:
https://www.binance.com/vote.html

No RaiBlocks social is advertising it and they don't talk about exchanges until the moment they are already listed.

Currently just the usual three shity exchanges list XRB (Bitgrail, Mercatox, Bitflip).

In past times Cryptopia and Bittrex (just two days testing and then no listing) listed it and delisted after a while.

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January 01, 2018, 08:28:08 PM
Last edit: January 01, 2018, 08:46:01 PM by qero
 #9514

XRB is high overvalued coin. I've sold all. You need to be crazy to buy it now.

p.s. Look this coin.
Seems that it possible to make x10-x100 next year.
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/renos/
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1809933.0
Devs are preparing Renotron trading system and released alpha versions.
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January 01, 2018, 08:37:50 PM
 #9515

any news on bigger exchanges? what about the voting contest on binance?

In current vote it is winning:
https://www.binance.com/vote.html

No RaiBlocks social is advertising it and they don't talk about exchanges until the moment they are already listed.

Currently just the usual three shity exchanges list XRB (Bitgrail, Mercatox, Bitflip).

In past times Cryptopia and Bittrex (just two days testing and then no listing) listed it and delisted after a while.

thanks you. Hopefully it really wins the binance vote

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January 01, 2018, 09:45:07 PM
 #9516

Reddcoin RDD will be going to the moon 🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀
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January 01, 2018, 09:57:40 PM
 #9517

Gentlemen please try to be fair, you (everybody spamming this thread) missed this wonderful opportunity to invest in the new BTC, it's the rule, be respectful to eachother, for the very amazing work done by the team and for the community.

You are of course allowed to think that it's not a good coin or that it still has some issues .... but why do you spend so much time and energy to write 10 posts per hour saying the same things again and again ...

Cryptocurrency need a reliable coin havin XRB caracteristics, of course XRB isn't the holy grail, however the community is very enthusiastic with Raiblock and i personnaly like the great work made by the team which is very legit and honnest toward the community.

XRB is far from being a shitcoin or a scam, and is possibly what the world of crypto was waiting for, i see no reason why the coin couldn't reach 100$ within the next 6 month and much more in the coming years.

www.bitairt.io - World First Artificial Intelligence Artist on the Blockchain - Start to collect !
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January 01, 2018, 09:59:50 PM
 #9518

Oh man I wish I invested in Raiblocks when I first heard about it. I should go with my guts more often..
centner
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January 01, 2018, 10:06:20 PM
 #9519

Intresting coin but why it's not listed at main exchanges like bittrex, binance, bitfinex ect ? It will be more easy for investors to buy this coin. I'll buy some but for that i need to register at new exchanges Sad

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January 01, 2018, 10:09:43 PM
 #9520

Intresting coin but why it's not listed at main exchanges like bittrex, binance, bitfinex ect ? It will be more easy for investors to buy this coin. I'll buy some but for that i need to register at new exchanges Sad

The team started to work full time on the project very recently, if i remember well 3 new exchanges will add the coin in the coming weeks.
Futhermore the community is currently voting to get XRB listed on Binance, according to the current vote XRB get 53% of the votes and should be listed on Binance very soon. I guess that other exchange will follow.

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