750ml Colloidal Silver - $29

[iCEBREAKER]

750ml bottle, 10 parts per million.

$5 flat rate shipping (any quantity), USA only.



Escrow via BitMit:
https://www.bitmit.net/en/item/14827-colloidal-silver-750ml?ref=2987

What makes Sacred Silver the best CS available?

Value  
   Compared to other brands, Sacred Silver is very economical at $29 for 750/ml.
   Cheaper in bulk, $49 for two or $59 for three.  $15 each in a 6 pack or $12 each for a case of 12.

Process  
   Sacred Silver is made only after midnight, when solar interference is at a minimum.
   Sacred Silver is made underground in a dark, empty room with no other sources of electrical fields.
   Sacred Silver is made in the presence of an amethyst and silver based orgonite positive energy generator.
   Sacred Silver contains only distilled water and silver.  No salt, protein, or other additives are ever used.

Quality
   Sacred Silver is an artisan product, made fresh to order in small (less than 1 gallon) batches.
   Tested with a calibrated Hanna PPM meter, every bottle is hand labeled with the actual measurement.
   Sacred Silver comes in glass wine bottles, which keep out damaging light and are static free (unlike plastic).
   Sacred Silver contains both silver ions and colloidal silver, with plenty of each for all types of applications.


Intended for ceremonial and/or religious use only.



Plenty of 100% positive feedback here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=484.msg1224370#msg1224370) and on BitMit.

[1714981241]

1714981241

[str4wm4n]

LOL look at this guy try to sell his shit.

So fail LOL!  

wtf smoothie?

this stuff is legit

[Simran]

Wtf is this bullshit?

[EricTyle]

? What do you do with it?

[johnniewalker]

Is this actual Ag or some Waterboy Sacred Water shit (you guys know what I'm talking about, the stuff blessed by an Eskimo in the movie lol)?

[iCEBREAKER]

? What do you do with it?

Colloidal silver kills the entire spectrum of pathogens.  So it has a million and one uses. 

Here's a personal anecdote:

Last night I was getting a sore throat.  Gargled with it.  Instant relief.

I'm sure you can think of other applications tailored to your personal biology. 

Or just keep some around, in case of Swine/Bird/Zombie Flu plague epidemics.   

[iCEBREAKER]

Is this actual Ag or some Waterboy Sacred Water shit (you guys know what I'm talking about, the stuff blessed by an Eskimo in the movie lol)?

Yes, it's actual Ag.  I use .999 silver rods to make it.

10 parts per million to be exact, as measured with a calibrated Hana Instruments meter.

Nanometer-scale pieces, small enough to penetrate cells, break off the rods and bounce around in the water.

[str4wm4n]

Hey iCEBREAKER,

You should make a video of yourself doing the milk test with your colloidal silver that would be really interesting.

You take 2 glasses of milk, put a tablespoon of colloidal silver in one, and nothing in the other, and leave them out of the fridge.

one goes bad quick and the other doesn't. guess which one doesn't

search "colloidal silver milk test" on youtube!

[MKEGuy]

I wont lie - I was super skeptical of this stuff when a buddy introduced me to it.  But twice now when I've had access to it when I was about to get sick - it went away by the next day.  Is it the only reason?  IDK.  I can tell you I normally have a pretty decent immune system.  So if you have a terrible one and are looking for a magic bottle - this obviously isn't gonna do the trick.  But if your looking for something that just might help you get over that cold a little quicker.... well - I strongly recommend giving it a shot!

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

When are you going to sell prayers and curses?

[alir]

I remember reading somewhere your body never processes the silver out and continued use turns your skin blue. This stuff even legal to sell?

[cosmicone]

Colloidal silver is more bullshit snake oil.  Everyone knows it.

[str4wm4n]

I remember reading somewhere your body never processes the silver out and continued use turns your skin blue. This stuff even legal to sell?

Oprah had a retarded man who abused CS and turned his skin blue on her show in an attempt to discredit colloidal silver.

Colloidal silver is more bullshit snake oil.  Everyone knows it.

Do you speak from experience? If not then please keep your "knowledge" to yourself.

[cosmicone]

Do you speak from experience? If not then please keep your "knowledge" to yourself.

Show me a link to one peer reviewed study on the efficacy of Colloidal Silver (which is not debunking it).  It's as useless as homeopathy.

Hmm, let's see how most reviews from medical doctors start:

Code:

Colloidal silver isn't considered safe or effective for any of the health claims manufacturers make. Silver has no known purpose in the body. Nor is it an essential mineral, as some sellers of silver products claim. 

[iCEBREAKER]

Hey iCEBREAKER,

You should make a video of yourself doing the milk test with your colloidal silver that would be really interesting.

You take 2 glasses of milk, put a tablespoon of colloidal silver in one, and nothing in the other, and leave them out of the fridge.

one goes bad quick and the other doesn't. guess which one doesn't

search "colloidal silver milk test" on youtube!

Sounds like a good fun experiment but it's not necessary because others have already done it, and silver coins have been used to keep water/milk fresh since forever.

[iCEBREAKER]

I wont lie - I was super skeptical of this stuff when a buddy introduced me to it.  But twice now when I've had access to it when I was about to get sick - it went away by the next day.  Is it the only reason?  IDK.  I can tell you I normally have a pretty decent immune system.  So if you have a terrible one and are looking for a magic bottle - this obviously isn't gonna do the trick.  But if your looking for something that just might help you get over that cold a little quicker.... well - I strongly recommend giving it a shot!

It's good to be skeptical and also good to be open-minded.

My aunt was skeptical and afraid she'd turn blue.  Then she tried it because of a sore throat.  The instant relief convinced her.

[iCEBREAKER]

When are you going to sell prayers and curses?

I'll start today!

Would you like me to bless your forlorn, hopelessly stagnant BTCINVEST security, in the hope of someday getting it over the offer price?   

It couldn't hurt, and might help more than your hilarious "We have 69 ASICMINER shares (diluted among 10,000 pieces of my trash failstock)" PR release.   


P.S.  Holy Water's reputation for curative effects comes from the fact it was stored in silver vessels.  That's a Sacred Silver Secret!

[Domrada]

Myth:

Silver is a magic cure-all potion.  Never be sick again!

Fact:

Silver is a natural anti-bacterial, anti-fungal element.  Pharmacies still sell prescription ointments containing silver for preventing skin infections in burns and open sores.  It has bizarre historical uses such as keeping water fresh and controlling body odor.  BUT it kills indiscriminately, and it should never be ingested.  Your body needs all kinds of bacteria and microbes to survive.  If you could magically zap all the bacteria in your body, you'd be dead within a week.  An over abundance of ingested metals will collect in your liver and cause organ failure.

[iCEBREAKER]

I remember reading somewhere your body never processes the silver out and continued use turns your skin blue. This stuff even legal to sell?

This stuff is perfectly legal to sell (hint: teh google is your friend).

10 parts per million colloidal silver will never turn you blue, even if you drank a gallon daily for the rest of your life.

The blue people messed up by taking shortcuts, using homemade equipment, and not monitoring PPM.

My colloidal silver is made with a commercially produced generator that automatically cuts off once the proper (extremely low) concentration is reached.

People consume exponentially larger amounts of other heavy metals all the time.  The body has no trouble processing them.

In fact, we'd die without sufficient quantities of copper, zinc, iron, magnesium, potassium, sodium, etc. in our diets.

[Domrada]

Do you speak from experience? If not then please keep your "knowledge" to yourself.

Show me a link to one peer reviewed study on the efficacy of Colloidal Silver (which is not debunking it).  It's as useless as homeopathy.

Hmm, let's see how most reviews from medical doctors start:

Code:

Colloidal silver isn't considered safe or effective for any of the health claims manufacturers make. Silver has no known purpose in the body. Nor is it an essential mineral, as some sellers of silver products claim. 

Your medical review quote is technically true.  Notice it says nothing about whether silver kills bacteria. It absolutely does. But so does soap.  Soap has no known purpose IN the body.  Soap is not an essential nutrient.  And no one in their right mind would ingest soap for their health.  The analogy is appropriate to silver.

[johnniewalker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq8C0GknwAM

[iCEBREAKER]

Show me a link to one peer reviewed study on the efficacy of Colloidal Silver (which is not debunking it).  It's as useless as homeopathy.
Hmm, let's see how most reviews from medical doctors start:

Colloidal silver isn't considered safe or effective for any of the health claims manufacturers make. Silver has no known purpose in the body. Nor is it an essential mineral, as some sellers of silver products claim.

Did you believe Clinton's Surgeon General Donna Shalala, when he marched out that little orc and she

stood with Attorney General Janet Reno and Drug "Czar" Barry McCaffrey threatening to revoke doctors' licences for recommending medical marijuana (a successful civil challenge later backed the government off.)   "Marijuana is illegal, dangerous, unhealthy and wrong," Shalala said. "It's a one-way ticket to dead-end hopes and dreams."

Modern medical doctors use silver all the time.  Before antibiotics, physicians used it even more frequently and extensively.

Let's consult the Wiki to continue your education.

First, please familiarize yourself with the oligodynamic effiect.  This will be important later, so pay attention!

The oligodynamic effect (Greek: oligos = few, Greek: dynamis = force) was discovered in 1893 by the Swiss Karl Wilhelm von Nägeli as a toxic effect of metal ions on living cells, algae, molds, spores, fungi, viruses, prokaryotic and eukaryotic microorganisms, even in relatively low concentrations.

Data from silver suggest that these ions denature enzymes of the target cell or organism by binding to reactive groups, resulting in their precipitation and inactivation.

Silver inactivates enzymes by reacting with the thiol groups to form silver sulfides. Silver also reacts with the amino-, carboxyl-, phosphate-, and imidazole-groups and diminish the activities of lactate dehydrogenase and glutathione peroxidase.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect

Got it?  Good, now let's move on and apply your new learning to medicine.

Silver and silver nanoparticles are used as an antimicrobial in a variety of industrial, healthcare and domestic applications.

Colloidal silver was used by physicians in the early 20th century, but its use was largely discontinued in the 1940s following the development of safer and more effective modern antibiotics.

Hippocrates in his writings discussed the use of silver in wound care.  At the beginning of the twentieth century surgeons routinely used silver sutures to reduce the risk of infection. In the early 20th century, physicians used silver-containing eyedrops to treat ophthalmic problems, for various infections, and sometimes internally for diseases such as tropical sprue, epilepsy, gonorrhea, and the common cold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_uses_of_silver

[str4wm4n]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq8C0GknwAM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ugkg9RePc

[grue]

Since about 1990, there has been a resurgence of the promotion of the ingestion of purchased or homemade[11] colloidal silver as a dietary supplement or homeopathic remedy, marketed with claims of it being an essential mineral supplement, or that it can prevent or treat numerous diseases, such as cancer, diabetes, HIV/AIDS, herpes,[9] and tuberculosis.[11][42][43] No medical evidence supports the ingestion of colloidal silver as being effective for any of these claimed indications.[8][11][44] Silver is not an essential mineral in humans; there is no dietary requirement for silver, and no such thing as a silver "deficiency".[11] Quackwatch characterizes colloidal silver as "risk without benefit".[45] Consumer Reports lists colloidal silver as a "supplement to avoid", describing it as "likely unsafe".[46]

There is no evidence that colloidal silver treats or prevents any medical condition, and it can cause serious and potentially irreversible side effects such as argyria.[11] In August 1999, the U.S. FDA banned colloidal silver sellers from claiming any therapeutic or preventive value for the product,[8] although silver-containing products continue to be promoted as dietary supplement in the U.S. under the looser regulatory standards applied to supplements.[8] The FDA has issued numerous Warning Letters to Internet sites that have continued to promote colloidal silver as an antibiotic or for other medical purposes.[47][48]

[greyhawk]

I remember reading somewhere your body never processes the silver out and continued use turns your skin blue. This stuff even legal to sell?

This stuff is perfectly legal to sell (hint: teh google is your friend).
[/img]

Hint: This stuff is only legal to sell (in the US in opposition to every other civilized country in the world), because (in the US in opposition to every other civilized country in the world) registration agencies do everything the wrong way around. You don't have to prove your snake oil is safe, the FDA has to prove your snake oil is unsafe. Which is why (in the US in opposition to every other civilized country in the world) thousands of people die every year because snake oil sellers like you can only be stopped (in the US in opposition to every other civilized country in the world) after it has been conclusively proved it was your snake oil that killed them. You people are a blight upon humanity and should be forced to ingest your own product preferably before you procreate so we can finally can get rid of your specific contamination of the gene pool.

[str4wm4n]

What makes the FDA better than the FED?

[ironcross360]

colloidal silver is good for you

[iCEBREAKER]

What makes the FDA better than the FED?

The FED only tricks 98% of the sheeple into believing it's necessary to keep them safe from the big bad evil scary greedy free market.

The FDA fools 99% of them.  As demonstrated above.

[iCEBREAKER]

Hint: This stuff is only legal to sell (in the US in opposition to every other civilized country in the world), because (in the US in opposition to every other civilized country in the world) registration agencies do everything the wrong way around. You don't have to prove your snake oil is safe, the FDA has to prove your snake oil is unsafe. Which is why (in the US in opposition to every other civilized country in the world) thousands of people die every year because snake oil sellers like you can only be stopped (in the US in opposition to every other civilized country in the world) after it has been conclusively proved it was your snake oil that killed them. You people are a blight upon humanity and should be forced to ingest your own product preferably before you procreate so we can finally can get rid of your specific contamination of the gene pool.

OK we get it.  You hate free markets and consumer choice.  You wish the burden of proof to be on the accused and somehow think it possible for them to prove a negative.

You love socialist hellholes, resent the freedoms unique and liberties exclusive to the USA, and confuse coercion with civilization.

I bet you also agree with the FedGov that medical cannabis has no medical value.  "Baa-baa" sayeth the wooly sheeple.   

How many people have died from colloidal silver?  Zero.  How many have died from things they could have cheaply and easily treated with colloidal silver?  More than zero.

BTW I do ingest my own product, and TYVM for wishing death upon me.  Such remarks speak volumes about your own poor, unsavory character.

"Blight upon humanity?"  Wow.  Drama much?   

[iCEBREAKER]

There is no evidence that colloidal silver treats or prevents any medical condition, and it can cause serious and potentially irreversible side effects such as argyria.[11] In August 1999, the U.S. FDA banned colloidal silver sellers from claiming any therapeutic or preventive value for the product,[8] although silver-containing products continue to be promoted as dietary supplement in the U.S. under the looser regulatory standards applied to supplements.[8] The FDA has issued numerous Warning Letters to Internet sites that have continued to promote colloidal silver as an antibiotic or for other medical purposes.[47][48]

Oh my, aren't you a big fan of the fallacious Argument From Authority?   

Taking medical advice from the FDA is like

1) taking financial advice from the SEC
2) taking fiscal advice from the Treasury
3) taking economic advice from the Fed

The government lies!  All the time!  Right to our stupid faces!

Remember this chestnut?

Doctors Given Federal Threat On Marijuana
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/31/us/doctors-given-federal-threat-on-marijuana.html

The Clinton Administration said today that doctors in California and Arizona who prescribe drugs like marijuana that are illegal under Federal law could lose their prescription-writing privileges and even face criminal charges.

Voters in those two states approved propositions in November that relax restrictions on the medical use of some illegal drugs. But the Federal Government, uneasy with the measures, has been developing a strategy to counter them.

''These propositions are not about compassion, they are about legalizing dangerous drugs,'' Gen. Barry R. McCaffrey, retired, Director of the Administration's Office of National Drug Control Policy, said at a news conference today. ''These two propositions simply do not affect Federal law.''

Supporters of the Arizona and California measures have pointed to some research suggesting that marijuana may be useful for relieving internal eye pressure in glaucoma, for controlling nausea in cancer patients on chemotherapy, and for combating severe weight loss associated with AIDS and the human immunodeficiency virus.

Yet several organizations of experts say that there is no proved medical use for marijuana and that in any case better drugs exist to treat nausea, the effects of glaucoma and H.I.V.-related ''wasting.''

That was a point underscored at the news conference today by General McCaffrey, Attorney General Janet Reno and Donna E. Shalala, the Secretary of Health and Human Services.

''All available research,'' Secretary Shalala said, ''has concluded that marijuana is dangerous to our health. Marijuana harms the brain, heart, lungs and immune system.''

Did you believe Shalala too?  Tsk-tsk!  You should know better.   

[greyhawk]

Hint: This stuff is only legal to sell (in the US in opposition to every other civilized country in the world), because (in the US in opposition to every other civilized country in the world) registration agencies do everything the wrong way around. You don't have to prove your snake oil is safe, the FDA has to prove your snake oil is unsafe. Which is why (in the US in opposition to every other civilized country in the world) thousands of people die every year because snake oil sellers like you can only be stopped (in the US in opposition to every other civilized country in the world) after it has been conclusively proved it was your snake oil that killed them. You people are a blight upon humanity and should be forced to ingest your own product preferably before you procreate so we can finally can get rid of your specific contamination of the gene pool.

OK we get it.  You hate free markets and consumer choice.  You wish the burden of proof to be on the accused and somehow think it possible for them to prove a negative.

You love socialist hellholes, resent the freedoms unique and liberties exclusive to the USA, and confuse coercion with civilization.

I bet you also agree with the FedGov that medical cannabis has no medical value.  "Baa-baa" sayeth the wooly sheeple.   

How many people have died from colloidal silver?  Zero.  How many have died from things they could have cheaply and easily treated with colloidal silver?  More than zero.

BTW I do ingest my own product, and TYVM for wishing death upon me.  Such remarks speak volumes about your own poor, unsavory character.

"Blight upon humanity?"  Wow.  Drama much?   

No. I have a medical background in contrast to you and yes, I am utterly convinced killing off your particular genetic aberration is a boon to humanity more powerful than the renaissance was.

[iCEBREAKER]

"Blight upon humanity?"  Wow.  Drama much?  

No. I have a medical background in contrast to you and yes, I am utterly convinced killing off your particular genetic aberration is a boon to humanity more powerful than the renaissance was.

Yes.  You do drama much!

Please, be even more over the top with your violent, unpleasant eugenic fantasies of culling those you deem unfit.  It's great entertainment!  

If you really had a medical background you wouldn't presume to scoff at the wisdom of Hippocrates, or the indisputable fact of the oligodynamic effect.

In contrast to you, I have background in hard science and thus respect the value of keeping an open mind.

And I suppose you are completely ignorant of this bit of history too:

The silver protein molecule is Argyrol in use for over 100 years to date, ample in clinical data support of the benefits and versatility of the silver protein molecule in medicine without detriment of drug resistance.

Niched in opthalamics, Argyrol dominated topical antimicrobials for the first half of the 20th century. With the enormous profits from the sale of the drug for a wide range of indications in human and veterinary medicine.

Argyrol is an over-the-counter internationally recognized anti-infective, drug regulatory compliant immediate to manufacture and distribution in every jurisdiction for antiseptic use in medicine specifically due to global drug regulatory administrative adjudication initiated by FDA in the United States to mandate New Drug Applications for silver drugs.  Argyrol is found continuously in commerce in medicine since the date of Argyrol inception by Barnes and Hille.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyrol

Now go on and tell us why you think the FDA should be allowed to force supplement providers to prove their innocence, on pain of state violence.  Such a good little bootlicker!  

[grue]

Now go on and tell us why you think the FDA should be allowed to force supplement providers to prove their innocence, on pain of state violence.  Such a good little bootlicker!   

this is not how science works. you are the one making the extraordinary claim, not us. it is your claim that goes against our current understanding of medicine. the onus is on you to provide evidence to back your hypothesis. just because FDA is the government does not automatically make their position false.

[Zedster]

? What do you do with it?

Colloidal silver kills the entire spectrum of pathogens.  So it has a million and one uses. 

Here's a personal anecdote:

Last night I was getting a sore throat.  Gargled with it.  Instant relief.

I'm sure you can think of other applications tailored to your personal biology. 

Or just keep some around, in case of Swine/Bird/Zombie Flu plague epidemics.   

You forgot it also can turn your skin permanently blue.  You too can be a smurf!

[mobile4ever]

You forgot it also can turn your skin permanently blue.  You too can be a smurf!

Water is toxic if taken in large amounts. Used in the right amounts, colloidal silver is one of the best anti-biotics there is.

[iCEBREAKER]

this is not how science works. you are the one making the extraordinary claim, not us. it is your claim that goes against our current understanding of medicine. the onus is on you to provide evidence to back your hypothesis. just because FDA is the government does not automatically make their position false.

Please elaborate on exactly what "extraordinary claims" I've made, and I'll be glad to back them up.   

FYI, the oligodynamic effect is not an extraordinary claim, it is established science.   

Thank you for your interest in Sacred Silver, the first colloidal silver product produced exclusively for the Bitcoin community!

[str4wm4n]

I wish the price was only 1 BTC. I would definitely buy some

[grue]

Please elaborate on exactly what "extraordinary claims" I've made, and I'll be glad to back them up.  

your claims goes against the following:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=1999_register&docid=fr17au99-6.pdf
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/silver
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8632503
http://dx.doi.org/10.1053%2Fajem.2001.25773

please provide evidence with reputability greater than, or equal to the sources given above. please note "mainstream medicine is ruled by big pharma suppressing the true knowledge" is not a substitute for lack of reputable evidence.

FYI, the oligodynamic effect is not an extraordinary claim, it is established science.  

according to your logic: since soap kills bacteria and viruses, you should drink soap to kill bacteria in your body. similar logic can be applied to any number of toxic substances.

in addition, all of silver's proven use in medication involves topical application, and no ingestion.

Hippocrates in his writings discussed the use of silver in wound care.  At the beginning of the twentieth century surgeons routinely used silver sutures to reduce the risk of infection. In the early 20th century, physicians used silver-containing eyedrops to treat ophthalmic problems, for various infections, and sometimes internally for diseases such as tropical sprue, epilepsy, gonorrhea, and the common cold.

and guess what? snake oil was also widely used in the 19th and 20th century.

[Bengt Bedrup]

https://i.imgur.com/pjzoz8p.jpg

Sorry, but this image is pure bullshit. Neither silver nor DNA are magnetic, and even if they were the "magnetic binding" would undo itself once the virus particle got away from the silver particle. Secondly, human DNA and viral DNA are in most senses the same, so anything that would affect the viral DNA would probably also affect your DNA - although to be fair, human cells are much larger than viruses so because of the distance the magnetic effect on the viral DNA would probably be larger than on the human DNA, but the problem with that reasoning is that it presumes that such an effect exists in the first place.

Now, if you wish to claim an oligodynamic effect you should know that viruses are relatively insensitive to such effects, because they have very little in the way of enzymes. Virus particles are pretty much boxes of blueprints that are delivered to the host cells, and then the host cells manufacture enzymes and whatever else they need according to the specifications.

[Simran]

We all know this is bullshit! OP has never heard of placebo before!

Let me go garble some of my gold, instant relief to making me feel more rich!

[iCEBREAKER]

Please elaborate on exactly what "extraordinary claims" I've made, and I'll be glad to back them up.  

your claims goes against the following:

according to your logic: since soap kills bacteria and viruses, you should drink soap to kill bacteria in your body. similar logic can be applied to any number of toxic substances.

in addition, all of silver's proven use in medication involves topical application, and no ingestion.

and guess what? snake oil was also widely used in the 19th and 20th century.

Please respond to the question where I asked you to enumerate the "extraordinary claims" I've made.

I maintain that I have made no such claims.  Please elaborate, or stop asserting that I have made any.  You are rebutting arguments I've never made.

Why do you keep babbling about "snake oil?"  Are you not capable of specifically discussing colloidal silver, the actual product at hand?

You have presented no evidence that "snake oil" was used for any of the well known purposes that silver served.

Did Hippocrates discuss snake oil in his writings?  NO.  Silver?  YES.

Did surgeons routinely use snake oil sutures to reduce infection?  NO.  Silver?  YES.

Did physicians use snake oil eyedrops to treat ophthalmic problems?  NO.  Silver?  YES.

Did many peoples, from Romans to American pioneers, use snake oil to keep water and milk fresh?  NO.  Silver?  YES.

I never advocated drinking soap.  Soap has an adverse reaction in the body at high concentrations and does nothing at 10 PPM.  Unlike silver:

The oligodynamic effect (Greek: oligos = few, Greek: dynamis = force) was discovered in 1893 by the Swiss Karl Wilhelm von Nägeli as a toxic effect of metal ions on living cells, algae, molds, spores, fungi, viruses, prokaryotic and eukaryotic microorganisms, even in relatively low concentrations

Take your irrelevant straw men about "snake oil" and "soap" and go away until you are capable of discussing scientific matters without appeals to emotion.

[iCEBREAKER]

Neither silver nor DNA are magnetic, and even if they were the "magnetic binding" would undo itself once the virus particle got away from the silver particle. Secondly, human DNA and viral DNA are in most senses the same, so anything that would affect the viral DNA would probably also affect your DNA - although to be fair, human cells are much larger than viruses so because of the distance the magnetic effect on the viral DNA would probably be larger than on the human DNA, but the problem with that reasoning is that it presumes that such an effect exists in the first place.

Now, if you wish to claim an oligodynamic effect you should know that viruses are relatively insensitive to such effects, because they have very little in the way of enzymes. Virus particles are pretty much boxes of blueprints that are delivered to the host cells, and then the host cells manufacture enzymes and whatever else they need according to the specifications.

What a stunning display of ignorance!  

Silver isn't magnetic?  Don't have even the faintest clue about what ions are, do you?

You also obviously don't know the difference between diamagnetism and ferromagnetism.

You should go on tour with the Insane Clown Posse.  They don't understand magnetism either!  

"anything that would affect the viral DNA would probably also affect your DNA"

Now ^this^ takes the prize for abject stupidity.

Acél was perhaps the first to observe that the oligodynamic action of silver was due to liberated
Ag+ as opposed to metallic (neutral) Ag.  Eichorn has emphasized that the charge significantly
facilitates electron displacement.  The oligodynamic metal charge effectively yanks electrons away from
another molecule (such as a bacterial membrane), in essence weakening the molecular bond and
rendering it susceptible to cleavage.  Goetz emphasized that, “the ionized state of silver is of
fundamental importance for an oligodynamic effect; at the same time, the experimental evidence seems
to indicate definitely that Ag, once bound to organocolloids (i.e., mild silver protein), almost completely
loses its ionized state.”  As Goetz’s knowledge evolved in realizations of the finer points of silver
oligodynamics, he eventually and correctly concluded that silver is microcidal only if it is in the ionic
state, as was more recently established by the work of Rochart and Uzdins who observed cells
selectively bond only with silver ions.

Silver can serve as a disinfectant at concentrations about 1,000 times lower than the toxic level to mammalian life (Warrington 1996).

Magnetic Disruption of Viral DNA

A virus is constructed of a capsid that contains incomplete segments of DNA and RNA. These DNA segments carry a slight magnetic charge. There is a claw on the outside of the virus that attaches the virus to a healthy cell. Once the virus is attached to a healthy cell it can”inject” the incomplete DNA into the healthy cell, producing damage to the normal DNA and causing it to reproduce abnormally. This can cause viral diseases like influenza, hepatitis, and cervical cancer.

The new supercharged silver acts like a magnet that attracts the charged DNA particles. The DNA binds so tightly to the silver that it makes a chaotic tangle of incomplete genetic material that can never lengthen out, so it can never go through replication. This inactivates the virus and prevents replication of viral disease. Normal cells have thicker, more protected cell membranes with a balanced charge, which protects them from the silver’s magnetic attraction.

Please don't quit your day job to teach molecular and cell biology, chemistry, or physics.  

That picture you said is "bullshit?"  It's smarter than you, King Dumbass.  

[usagi]

The properties of colloidal silver are well known. No point arguing with science. Although some people have been known to argue with a brick wall.

Some people are allergic to silver as some people are allergic to copper, etc. please check with your doctor before taking colloidal silver.

It's worth noting more people are allergic to asprin than are allergic to colloidal silver.

[str4wm4n]

So hows about selling me a bottle for 1 btc? 

[iCEBREAKER]

So hows about selling me a bottle for 1 btc? 

Sure, bidding here starts at 29.00 USD (= 0.967 BTC) including shipping and escrow:

https://www.bitmit.net/en/item/14827-colloidal-silver-750ml?ref=2987

[grue]

Please respond to the question where I asked you to enumerate the "extraordinary claims" I've made.

I did. Your claims are extraordinary because they go against current medical knowledge. I have provided papers proving silver has no effect. You have not presented any empirical evidence, besides inferences based on old knowledge.

You have presented no evidence that "snake oil" was used for any of the well known purposes that silver served.

Did surgeons routinely use snake oil sutures to reduce infection?  NO.  Silver?  YES.

Did many peoples, from Romans to American pioneers, use snake oil to keep water and milk fresh?  NO.  Silver?  YES.

note how all of those applications are outside the body, or at the most, topical.

The oligodynamic effect (Greek: oligos = few, Greek: dynamis = force) was discovered in 1893 by the Swiss Karl Wilhelm von Nägeli as a toxic effect of metal ions on living cells, algae, molds, spores, fungi, viruses, prokaryotic and eukaryotic microorganisms, even in relatively low concentrations

hey guess what? your body is made of living cells.

Did Hippocrates discuss snake oil in his writings?  NO.  Silver?  YES.

so he discussed silver in his writings. besides the fact you're appealing to tradition (lead was pretty good for pipes at those times), it still doesn't justify the fact that there is no evidence to support colloidal silver. also, keep in mind the modern scientific method was invented in the 18th and 19th century.

[iCEBREAKER]

Your claims are extraordinary because they go against current medical knowledge. I have provided papers proving silver has no effect. You have not presented any empirical evidence, besides inferences based on old knowledge.

The oligodynamic effect (Greek: oligos = few, Greek: dynamis = force) was discovered in 1893 by the Swiss Karl Wilhelm von Nägeli as a toxic effect of metal ions on living cells, algae, molds, spores, fungi, viruses, prokaryotic and eukaryotic microorganisms, even in relatively low concentrations

hey guess what? your body is made of living cells.

No shit, Dick Tracy.  Assuming you know the difference between microorganisms and mammals, you really shouldn't go through life blissfully ignorant of the fact that:

Silver can serve as a disinfectant at concentrations about 1,000 times lower than the toxic level to mammalian life (Warrington 1996).

I'd be happy to substantiate any "extraordinary claims" I've made, but am having trouble finding any.   

   How many "extraordinary claims" have I made?  One, two, three, twelve, forty-two?

   Where did I make these "extraordinary claims?"  In this thread?  In which post(s)?

   If you don't know how to use the quote feature, just cut and paste them in quote marks and I'll figure out the context.

I can't believe you are still contesting the antimicrobial efficacy of silver.  It's not a debate you can win.  In fact, you're going get your ass kicked!   

Silver in Healthcare: Its Antimicrobial Efficacy and Safety in Use
Royal Society of Chemistry, May 27, 2010
http://books.google.com/books?id=QxtLm7MgQhYC&lpg

^^^Is this enough empirical evidence, or shall I continue to educate you on the subject as you move the goalposts ever farther down the field?   

[grue]

I never denied the medicinal properties of silver. I do agree, that like copper, silver inhibits the growth of bacteria on its surface. However, this does not imply that ingestion of elemental silver particles will lead to better health.

Silver in Healthcare: Its Antimicrobial Efficacy and Safety in Use
Royal Society of Chemistry, May 27, 2010
http://books.google.com/books?id=QxtLm7MgQhYC&lpg
https://i.imgur.com/A6WRR1a.png[

^^^Is this enough empirical evidence, or shall I continue to educate you on the subject as you move the goalposts ever farther down the field?   

• silver nitrate is not bioequivalent to elemental silver
• your own quoted material states that the improvement was not due to silver nitrate per se
• your own quoted material only stated silver was effective in topical applications, not ingestion

[iCEBREAKER]

I never denied the medicinal properties of silver. I do agree, that like copper, silver inhibits the growth of bacteria on its surface. However, this does not imply that ingestion of elemental silver particles will lead to better health.

• silver nitrate is not bioequivalent to elemental silver
• your own quoted material states that the improvement was not due to silver nitrate per se
• your own quoted material only stated silver was effective in topical applications, not ingestion

I'm quite sure that, while vaginal douches and oral rinses are arguably topical (or at least not ingestion per se), the pills used for treatment of gastrointestinal complaints and peptic ulcers were indisputably ingested.  

Maybe you have some special way of taking pills not involving ingestion (anally perhaps?).  

(Remarkably, it wasn't until decades later that the link between ulcers and viruses/bacteria was established.)

Of course you never denied the medicinal properties of silver.  That would be stupid*.

*Quibbling about nitrate vs colloid is even more stupid because colloids have been demonstrated to be superior.

Good catch on recognizing the key metric of surface area.  Now think about how much surface area particles in a colloid have.  Hint: it's a lot!

If you don't see the implication, that's fine.  But please recognize that many other people, including experts with credentials vastly superior to your own, do.

In fact, in the early 1900’s Alfred Searle, founder of the global Searle Pharmaceutical Company, had already discovered that silver in its liquid colloidal form could kill even the most deadly of pathogens. In his book Colloids in Biology and Medicine, 1919, Searle wrote:

    “Applying colloidal silver to human subjects has been done in a large number of cases with astonishingly successful results...it has the advantage of being rapidly fatal to microbes without toxic action on its host. It is quite stable. It protects rabbits from ten times the lethal dose of tetanus or diphtheria toxin.”

Likewise, this Czech study published in the prestigious Journal of Physical Chemistry B in 2006, also demonstrated that colloidal silver was a highly effective agent against MRSA:

 “…silver particles with a narrow size distribution with an average size of 25 nm, which showed high antimicrobial and bactericidal activity against Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria, including highly multi-resistant strains such as methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA). The study further demonstrated that very low concentrations of silver could be utilized to destroy MRSA, as long as the silver particles were very small, averaging 25 nm.”

[iCEBREAKER]

Hey iCEBREAKER,

You should make a video of yourself doing the milk test with your colloidal silver that would be really interesting.

You take 2 glasses of milk, put a tablespoon of colloidal silver in one, and nothing in the other, and leave them out of the fridge.

one goes bad quick and the other doesn't. guess which one doesn't

search "colloidal silver milk test" on youtube!

It would be much better to have an unbiased, independent reviewer perform the experiment.

If anyone wants to do this "milk test" I'll sell you a bottle for half price (that's less than the cost of shipping).

[grue]

It would be much better to have an unbiased, independent reviewer perform the experiment.

If anyone wants to do this "milk test" I'll sell you a bottle for half price (that's less than the cost of shipping).

If i fill a bottle of milk with rubbing alcohol, and it doesn't go bad, does that mean i should drink rubbing alcohol? all it proves is that it kills bacteria. a lot of things kill bacteria, doesn't mean it's good for you

I never denied the medicinal properties of silver. I do agree, that like copper, silver inhibits the growth of bacteria on its surface. However, this does not imply that ingestion of elemental silver particles will lead to better health.

• silver nitrate is not bioequivalent to elemental silver
• your own quoted material states that the improvement was not due to silver nitrate per se
• your own quoted material only stated silver was effective in topical applications, not ingestion

I'm quite sure that, while vaginal douches and oral rinses are arguably topical (or at least not ingestion per se), the pills used for treatment of gastrointestinal complaints and peptic ulcers were indisputably ingested. 

Maybe you have some special way of taking pills not involving ingestion (anally perhaps?).   

(Remarkably, it wasn't until decades later that the link between ulcers and viruses/bacteria was established.)

Of course you never denied the medicinal properties of silver.  That would be stupid*.

*Quibbling about nitrate vs colloid is even more stupid because colloids have been demonstrated to be superior.

Good catch on recognizing the key metric of surface area.  Now think about how much surface area particles in a colloid have.  Hint: it's a lot!

If you don't see the implication, that's fine.  But please recognize that many other people, including experts with credentials vastly superior to your own, do.

In fact, in the early 1900’s Alfred Searle, founder of the global Searle Pharmaceutical Company, had already discovered that silver in its liquid colloidal form could kill even the most deadly of pathogens. In his book Colloids in Biology and Medicine, 1919, Searle wrote:

    “Applying colloidal silver to human subjects has been done in a large number of cases with astonishingly successful results...it has the advantage of being rapidly fatal to microbes without toxic action on its host. It is quite stable. It protects rabbits from ten times the lethal dose of tetanus or diphtheria toxin.”

Likewise, this Czech study published in the prestigious Journal of Physical Chemistry B in 2006, also demonstrated that colloidal silver was a highly effective agent against MRSA:

 “…silver particles with a narrow size distribution with an average size of 25 nm, which showed high antimicrobial and bactericidal activity against Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria, including highly multi-resistant strains such as methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA). The study further demonstrated that very low concentrations of silver could be utilized to destroy MRSA, as long as the silver particles were very small, averaging 25 nm.”

I like how all those studies are done in early 20th century. also, your MRSA example is flawed because it never stated the method of consumption. a quick search on wikipedia reveals that MRSA occurs on the skin, which further suggests that all known applications of colloidal server is for topical use.

[TECSHARE]

It would be much better to have an unbiased, independent reviewer perform the experiment.

If anyone wants to do this "milk test" I'll sell you a bottle for half price (that's less than the cost of shipping).

If i fill a bottle of milk with rubbing alcohol, and it doesn't go bad, does that mean i should drink rubbing alcohol? all it proves is that it kills bacteria. a lot of things kill bacteria, doesn't mean it's good for you

I never denied the medicinal properties of silver. I do agree, that like copper, silver inhibits the growth of bacteria on its surface. However, this does not imply that ingestion of elemental silver particles will lead to better health.

• silver nitrate is not bioequivalent to elemental silver
• your own quoted material states that the improvement was not due to silver nitrate per se
• your own quoted material only stated silver was effective in topical applications, not ingestion

I'm quite sure that, while vaginal douches and oral rinses are arguably topical (or at least not ingestion per se), the pills used for treatment of gastrointestinal complaints and peptic ulcers were indisputably ingested. 

Maybe you have some special way of taking pills not involving ingestion (anally perhaps?).   

(Remarkably, it wasn't until decades later that the link between ulcers and viruses/bacteria was established.)

Of course you never denied the medicinal properties of silver.  That would be stupid*.

*Quibbling about nitrate vs colloid is even more stupid because colloids have been demonstrated to be superior.

Good catch on recognizing the key metric of surface area.  Now think about how much surface area particles in a colloid have.  Hint: it's a lot!

If you don't see the implication, that's fine.  But please recognize that many other people, including experts with credentials vastly superior to your own, do.

In fact, in the early 1900’s Alfred Searle, founder of the global Searle Pharmaceutical Company, had already discovered that silver in its liquid colloidal form could kill even the most deadly of pathogens. In his book Colloids in Biology and Medicine, 1919, Searle wrote:

    “Applying colloidal silver to human subjects has been done in a large number of cases with astonishingly successful results...it has the advantage of being rapidly fatal to microbes without toxic action on its host. It is quite stable. It protects rabbits from ten times the lethal dose of tetanus or diphtheria toxin.”

Likewise, this Czech study published in the prestigious Journal of Physical Chemistry B in 2006, also demonstrated that colloidal silver was a highly effective agent against MRSA:

 “…silver particles with a narrow size distribution with an average size of 25 nm, which showed high antimicrobial and bactericidal activity against Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria, including highly multi-resistant strains such as methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA). The study further demonstrated that very low concentrations of silver could be utilized to destroy MRSA, as long as the silver particles were very small, averaging 25 nm.”

I like how all those studies are done in early 20th century. also, your MRSA example is flawed because it never stated the method of consumption. a quick search on wikipedia reveals that MRSA occurs on the skin, which further suggests that all known applications of colloidal server is for topical use.

You really got backed into a corner here with your marketplace ad trolling didn't you Grue? Seems as if you have been forced to concede quite a few points here and are resorting to semantic distinctions to argue your points. I know you like to think of yourself as doing something for the Bitcoin community, like you are protecting it from bad things but you are not. You are just looking for excuses to play expert and troll, you have been doing it pretty much unbroken here for years. It is pretty transparent and sad.

As far as colloidal silver goes, does anyone think the pharmaceutical industries who do most of the research papers or fund them would cover colloidal silver, a product which is non-patentable and practically free to anyone who knows how to make it, to be covered without bias? If colloidal silver was on shelves in stores everywhere they would lose BILLIONS in medication sales as well as other medical consumables and treatments. They would make every effort to create a negative image around colloidal silver, up and to including releasing fraudulent or misleading research. People are still pulling out their blue man fear mongering decades later, even when it is well known that only happens if you create it incorrectly AND use it in EXTREME EXCESS. Its just sad how many people claim to be experts on topics without even learning a damned thing for themselves.

[iCEBREAKER]

Taken internally, colloidal silver can be used to fight infection. It has been shown to be effective against more that 650 disease-causing organisms, including Escherichia coli (E. coli) bacteria and the fungus Candida albicans"

Prescription for Nutritional Healing (2010) Dr. James Balch

Grue fancies himself a Rational Skeptic Supreme, but sadly has fallen into the extremist clutches of the Anti-Woo Jihahist mindset. 

They become what they hate, IE nutjobs, through the wonders of convergent morphology.   

It's not entirely his fault, Dawkins and company have been diligently spreading the virulent Fundamentalist Atheist meme for some time.  Grue's merely parroting their spiel.


I'd like Grue to stop making a fool of himself and admit that

1.  the 2006 Czech study was not done in the "early 20th century"   

2.  scientific studies done in the early 20th century do not become invalid or outdated until contrary evidence emerges

3.  consuming 10 parts per million silver in distilled water is in no way comparable to drinking rubbing alcohol, nor does it have a chance in hell of turning anybody blue

4.  silver pills used for treatment of gastrointestinal complaints and peptic ulcers were indisputably ingested, not applied topically

5.  recent revelations about the role pathogens play in ulcer formation explains why those pills were so effective

6.  protection from "ten times the lethal dose of tetanus or diphtheria toxin" are obviously internal (again NOT TOPICAL) applications

7.  changing the subject from colloidal silver to smurfs, snake oil, rubbing alcohol, or soap is a dishonest appeal to emotion and not a rational argument (red herring)

[DobZombie]

Soap has an adverse reaction in the body at high concentrations and does nothing at 10 PPM.  Unlike silver:

Yeah, silver will do this eventually at any dose....

[TECSHARE]

Soap has an adverse reaction in the body at high concentrations and does nothing at 10 PPM.  Unlike silver:

Yeah, silver will do this eventually at any dose....

Did you even bother to read how he got that way? He went thru GALLONS of the stuff per month using internally and on his skin. ADDITIONALLY he produced it with TAP WATER and IMPURE STERLING SILVER which both create SILVER SALTS NOT COLLOIDAL SILVER. You can't claim colloidal silver will turn you blue when this man was not using colloidal silver.

[DobZombie]

You can't claim colloidal silver will turn you blue when this man was not using colloidal silver.

Just like you can't claim colloidal silver will kill viruses in the body?

See what I did there?

[TECSHARE]

You can't claim colloidal silver will turn you blue when this man was not using colloidal silver.

Just like you can't claim colloidal silver will kill viruses in the body?

See what I did there?

Where did I say that? Regardless there certainly is NO STUDIES supporting colloidal silver is antiviral. Not one....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3199605/
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/222102689_Antiviral_activity_of_silver_nanoparticles_synthesized_by_fungal_strain_Aspergillus_niger
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18505176?dopt=AbstractPlus
http://www.jnanobiotechnology.com/content/3/1/6

(that was like 30 seconds of googling)

[ny2cafuse]

Colloidal silver is used widely in the marijuana growing community.  Colloidal silver is used to produce pollen sacs on a female plant that will carry female chromosomes, not male.  So they then pollinate the plants with the female chromosome pollen and produce feminized seeds.

Colloidal silver is very easy to make.  Sure, you can have different types with all different types of purity.  But when it boils down to it, you could do it yourself with a silver coin, a glass of water, and a 9V battery. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=60610&highlight=colloidal+silver

[DobZombie]

Where did I say that?

I never said you did. I just say you can't.

I'm going by the picture at the start of the thread

[grue]

Taken internally, colloidal silver can be used to fight infection. It has been shown to be effective against more that 650 disease-causing organisms, including Escherichia coli (E. coli) bacteria and the fungus Candida albicans"

Prescription for Nutritional Healing (2010) Dr. James Balch

Grue fancies himself a Rational Skeptic Supreme, but sadly has fallen into the extremist clutches of the Anti-Woo Jihahist mindset. 

They become what they hate, IE nutjobs, through the wonders of convergent morphology.   

It's not entirely his fault, Dawkins and company have been diligently spreading the virulent Fundamentalist Atheist meme for some time.  Grue's merely parroting their spiel.


I'd like Grue to stop making a fool of himself and admit that

1.  the 2006 Czech study was not done in the "early 20th century"   

2.  scientific studies done in the early 20th century do not become invalid or outdated until contrary evidence emerges

3.  consuming 10 parts per million silver in distilled water is in no way comparable to drinking rubbing alcohol, nor does it have a chance in hell of turning anybody blue

4.  silver pills used for treatment of gastrointestinal complaints and peptic ulcers were indisputably ingested, not applied topically

5.  recent revelations about the role pathogens play in ulcer formation explains why those pills were so effective

6.  protection from "ten times the lethal dose of tetanus or diphtheria toxin" are obviously internal (again NOT TOPICAL) applications

7.  changing the subject from colloidal silver to smurfs, snake oil, rubbing alcohol, or soap is a dishonest appeal to emotion and not a rational argument (red herring)

1. my reference about your studies' age was for your first 2 claims.

2. your 20th century stuides HAVE been invalidated by modern studies (see my previous posts)

3. that was directed at your flawed experiment. proposal

4, 5. can I see RCT for that?

6. pretty sure you get tetanus externally (cut with rusty nail)
.
7. I never made a claim about smurfs, that was someone else. I also don't see how any of those arguments were an emotional appeal. Your logic of "it kills bacteria so it must be good in ingest it" was simply flawed, and I was trying to prove you wrong by contradiction.

[Gabi]

This thread=bullshit

[Sukrim]

Well, some food (for example fish) contains ~10 ppm silver as well - you could just eat a piece of Sushi to ingest exactly the same amount of Ag.

Also calling it some ceremonial item or other bullsh*tting around does not change the claim that's made just a few lines later in that picture: That Ag ions and colloidal Ag (which are measured both by some calibrated instrument...?!) magically magnetically are attracting virii.
Probably one really has to do some ceremony before that for it to occur...

Also why does it cost ~0.6 BTC to produce 750ml of something that contains about as much silver as sea water? Who actually produces that stuff? My suspicion is that this is done (under maybe questionable hygienic conditions - "It is self sterilizing anyways!!!") via some homebrew method by the OP him-/herself.

[TECSHARE]

Well, some food (for example fish) contains ~10 ppm silver as well - you could just eat a piece of Sushi to ingest exactly the same amount of Ag.

Also calling it some ceremonial item or other bullsh*tting around does not change the claim that's made just a few lines later in that picture: That Ag ions and colloidal Ag (which are measured both by some calibrated instrument...?!) magically magnetically are attracting virii.
Probably one really has to do some ceremony before that for it to occur...

Also why does it cost ~0.6 BTC to produce 750ml of something that contains about as much silver as sea water? Who actually produces that stuff? My suspicion is that this is done (under maybe questionable hygienic conditions - "It is self sterilizing anyways!!!") via some homebrew method by the OP him-/herself.

I don't know if you have any idea what fish costs here away from the coasts, but the bottle of colloidal silver is cheaper, especially considering that it is not intended for nutritional use but intended as a direct application to the problem area (ie skin, mouth, sinus, stomach). It works because it is charged and concentrated. This is not the case with the silver in fish.

As far as being for ceremonial use, I can't speak for the seller, but I do believe he is relegated to this form of sale because of fine fascist folks such as yourself that are threatened by the free market, and force him to seek this legal protection for fear of persecution. Persecution not from harm he has done mind you, but persecution for daring to challenge FDA policy (NOT LAW!). If it is such a horrible dangerous product with no efficacy, then why is it constantly still being sold after decades of claims by wannabe experts, control freaks, and shills with an ever increasing market share?

People WANT this product, if they didn't no one would sell it. The only reason it costs so much is because he is taking a risk that a fine obsessive individual like yourself might call the gestapo to kick in his door over a medical treatment EVERYONE should have access to if they want. As far as the conditions it was created under, people sell home made food here ALL THE TIME. They aren't following FDA policy either. Do you go into each of their threads posting about how you find the conditions in which they were created to be objectionable when you have no knowledge of it in the first place? It seems to me you speak a lot about things you have no knowledge of. It is much easier than thinking or learning for yourself.

[grue]

If it is such a horrible dangerous product with no efficacy, then why is it constantly still being sold after decades of claims by wannabe experts, control freaks, and shills with an ever increasing market share?

argumentum ad populum

[TECSHARE]

If it is such a horrible dangerous product with no efficacy, then why is it constantly still being sold after decades of claims by wannabe experts, control freaks, and shills with an ever increasing market share?

argumentum ad populum

Actually no, because I am not arguing it is good because it is popular, I am arguing that it would not be so popular if it  was as dangerous as all you wannabe experts claim it is. If it was dangerous less people would use it and usage would dwindle to nothing, not grow as people discovered its potential or lack thereof. I think you need to go back to debate class.

Exercise for the class:
Find me a single instance of some one who harmed themselves using properly made colloidal silver* in moderation. If this stuff is as dangerous as you claim it is then this shouldn't be difficult. Good luck.

*(only distilled water and .9999 purity silver used)

[Sukrim]

There is a nice saying in my country:
"Billions of flies can't be wrong - eat more shit!"

I'm not claiming that something that contains less silver than sea water or a lot of the food I eat daily is dangerous.
I am however claiming the following (and the burden of proof is upon the OP as the producer, not me as a potential consumer):
* The liquid being sold is being produced in an potentially unhygienic environment with potentially contaminated ingredients.
* The liquid being sold does NOT contain 10 ppm Ag particles. It also does not contain the amount of silver ppm that the "hana" (actually it's "Hanna instruments") meter reports, if the OP even posesses such a device...

In regards to "it's a free market and the people WANT to buy it" - people like you are the exact reason why free markets can and will never work.

Oh, and while ingesting 10 ppm silver in distilled water in moderation might not have adverse effects (just like homeopathics), there are no positive effects beyond placebo either. The harm would probably rather come from neglecting proper treatments (e.g. consuming colloidal silver instead of taking antibiotics) rather than the substance itself.

[iCEBREAKER]

Dear Suckrim,

Thank you for your intense fixation on Sacred Silver, the first colloidal silver produced exclusively for the Bitcoin community.

This product is produced using a commercially available CS generator with a sterling reputation, many satisfied customers, and years of success in its market.

Please take the time and make the effort to understand the oligodynamic effect (which educated people realize has nothing to do with homeopathy) explained here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect


Gaining knowledge of this important phenomenon will help you see why your previous catty/snotty/ignorant/disgusting remark about flies eating shit has zero applicability to the OP.

Every environment is "potentially unhygenic" but we all understand your desire is not to engage in an intellectually honest, productive discussion, but rather to thread crap and declare victory. 

Every ingredient is likewise "potentially contaminated" but we all understand your desire is not to engage in an intellectually honest, productive discussion, but rather to thread crap and declare victory.

Demanding I prove these two negatives (a logical impossibility) offers you a cheap but cheesy means, which you are not above utilizing, to accomplish that shameful goal.

I appreciate your one valid contribution to this thread, pointing out "Hanna" is misspelled in the OP (which I've corrected).

If I were to post pictures of the Hanna Instruments TDS meter being calibrated and displaying the stated 10PPM, to where would you then move your hateful, nitpicking goalposts of FUD?   


Your ad hominem attack on Tecshare, blaming him for being the reason "why free markets can and will never work" makes no sense at all (and is overwrought drama-queen hysteria).

Free markets can always and will always work, unless distorted by regulatory interference and statist coercion to an extent inducing artificial shortages.

Colloidal silver is effective against many pathogens, but unfortunately cannot cure you of being a screeching banshee lacking even rudimentary scientific or logical ability.

[Sukrim]

If you care to read your quoted article, it is about metal ions, not metal colloids... Also you can read the linked article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_uses_of_silver
Yes, your solution (especially if made through electrolysis) is likely containing ions - and I'm very interested how your water resistance meter actually measures anything beyond ions (e.g. silver nanoparticles)

By the way TECSHARE already tried to sell overpriced water for Bitcoin some time ago, so no, you're not the first one to do so.

Please post the exact type of the Hanna TDS meter, the certificate for your calibration solution, a video of calibration + measurement of actual solution without cuts, the exact type/brand of water you use (and certificates of these) as well as the silver. Also of interest might be the conditions under which this solution is produced - how do you keep your bottles sterile for example, how do you ensure the claims in your OP concerning the special circumstances under which this stuff is being produced (what are "no other" sources of electricity for example and how do you guarantee to have 0 electric fields during the preparation)?

Also you seem to like to insert empty lines.

This

is

a

bit

annoying

to

read

for

me.

[johnniewalker]

just curious...what does this stuff taste like?

[iCEBREAKER]

just curious...what does this stuff taste like?

10PPM (barely over the taste threshold) is too low a concentration to make much difference. 

A fresh batch tastes like distilled water.

After a few weeks it has a very slight metallic flavor that many people won't even notice.

[iCEBREAKER]

Dear Suckrim,

Thank you for your continued fixation on Sacred Silver, the first colloidal silver produced exclusively for the Bitcoin community.

I'm pleased to help alleviate the unnecessary fear, uncertainty, and doubt you have been experiencing with regard to this product.

Sacred Silver's quality control is done using a temperature-compensating Hanna Instruments TDS meter calibrated with Hanna's own calibration fluid.

For more details (which you will undoubtedly gainsay, nitpick, and otherwise accuse of misrepresentation and/or insufficiency) see the manufacture's product page here:

http://www.hannainst.com/usa/prods2.cfm?id=003003&ProdCode=Primo

While not ideal or extremely precise, such instruments have been used with success for many years, despite their shortcomings versus costly testing in specialized laboratories.

TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids. This meter is often used by the water industry to measure the level of minerals in water, however it gives a relatively accurate reading of colloidal silver ppm. The only way to obtain a true parts per million (ppm) measurement of a collodial silver sample is to send it out to a lab equipped to analyse the CS. That can be time consuming and very expensive. Most producers of CS are now rating their ppm with a TDS meter and adding the nomenclature "TDS" after the ppm number. For example, 10 ppm TDS, means 10 ppm as measured with a TDS meter.  For our purposes, it's more than accurate enough. It takes all the guess work out of trying to figure how concentrated your CS solution is.

Every point in the universe has electrical fields present.  To minimize the impact of these fields, Sacred Silver is made after midnight, in a professionally cleaned spare room with no other electronic equipment present.

As to the claim that the oligodynamic effect only applies to ions, please be more thorough in your reading and comprehension before making such wildly inaccurate, easily prevented/corrected claims, which can be refuted merely by posting the part of the article you ignored.

Silver nanoparticles, obtained by irradiating a silver nitrate solution with an electron beam, are effective bactericides, destroying gram-negative species immune to conventional antibacterial agents.[6]

[6]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100524101339.htm
May 25, 2010 — Writing in the International Journal of Nanoparticles, Rani Pattabi and colleagues at Mangalore University, explain how blasting silver nitrate solution with an electron beam can generate nanoparticles that are more effective at killing all kinds of bacteria, including gram-negative species that are not harmed by conventional antibacterial agents.

I'm sorry the common practice of using double-spacing for enhanced legibility has such a outsized negative effect on you.  Perhaps you should see an eye doctor, or consult a structural engineer who can help you build a bridge and get over it.   

[grue]

so it comes down to:
are there any randomized controlled studies that show ingestion of colloidal silver solution at concentration of 10 ppm ± 5 (very generous range) can treat/diagnose/prevent any disease? if so, is it better than placebo/control, and is it comparable to existing treatments?

A fresh batch tastes like distilled water.

After a few weeks it has a very slight metallic flavor that many people won't even notice.

well that's weird.

[mufa23]

Hate to say it, but the majority of my family members have a history of working in the medical profession (both USA and Germany), and they've time and time again told me how awesome Colloidal Silver is. I used to gargle it all the time growing up whenever I got a sore throat. These days it's considered more of an herbal remedy / homeopathic medicine kind of thing. But it does work, just not nearly as well as it's advertised. I wouldn't call it a placebo effect either. Perhaps something more in the middle ground. The stuff isn't all that special. It does help, just not very much. And I was laughing pretty hard when I saw the magnetic DNA bullshit in the first post. iCEBREAKER does have some truth to what he's saying. I could inquire with my family if you guys are actually interested.

tl;dr
The stuff works, but not very well. Antibiotics are still the go-to treatment.

EDIT: Oh, and the midnight moonlight stuff is obviously a load of crap

[iCEBREAKER]

Why is it weird for water with a tiny trace of metal to have a slight metallic taste?

That seems like an obvious consequence, and normal for anyone with a discerning palate.

Also, space weather does actually make a large difference on the color/production of metal colloids.

Solar events have a strong influence in terms of slowing the process of making a colloid, primarily because it causes increased oxidation, which occurs especially when the sun is sending lots of high energy phenomena our way.

I know, I know.  The whole 'electric universe' thesis is crazy talk.  Whoever heard of so-called 'solar wind' or 'belts' of so-called 'plasma' surrounding so-called 'planets?'   

As if so-called 'silver' would ever interact with so-called 'electromagnetic radiation' in any meaningful way whatsoever!  What's next, some kind of crazy device that uses 'photosensitive' silver film to capture images, in some sort of unheard-of contraption called a 'photograph?"   

Move the goalposts as far down field as necessary to protect your narrow, fragile, FDA statist thug-approved view of the world.  The fact remains that

Albert Searle, who founded the drug company that later evolved into Merck, performed a great deal of research on colloidal silver and its benefits against infection. As Warren Jefferson notes in the book Colloidal Silver Today, Searle wrote that colloidal silver has “…the advantage of being rapidly fatal to the parasites—both bacterial and otherwise— without any toxic action on the host.” Searle also believed it was useful for tonsillitis, conjunctivitis, impetigo, leg ulcerations, eczema, dysentery and boils.

No one is quite sure how silver kills pathogenic bacteria. It is possible that it inhibits the enzymes microbes depend on for survival. Some researchers believe that microbes naturally attract particles suspended in the colloidal silver, and the accumulation of these particles causes their death. Still other scientists hypothesize that silver interferes with bacterial reproduction, disrupts their membranes and inhibits the functions within the cells. It also may boost the body’s own immune defenses, making them more potent in destroying invading microbes.

Mark Stengler, in his book The Natural Physician’s Healing Therapies, writes that he uses colloidal silver for the internal and external treatment of acute infections. He also uses it as an antifungal and antiparasitic agent, giving it to patients internally for infections of the digestive tract. Other holistic doctors, he says, use colloidal silver for the long-term treatment of Lyme disease.

[TECSHARE]

Hate to say it, but the majority of my family members have a history of working in the medical profession (both USA and Germany), and they've time and time again told me how awesome Colloidal Silver is. I used to gargle it all the time growing up whenever I got a sore throat. These days it's considered more of an herbal remedy / homeopathic medicine kind of thing. But it does work, just not nearly as well as it's advertised. I wouldn't call it a placebo effect either. Perhaps something more in the middle ground. The stuff isn't all that special. It does help, just not very much. And I was laughing pretty hard when I saw the magnetic DNA bullshit in the first post. iCEBREAKER does have some truth to what he's saying. I could inquire with my family if you guys are actually interested.

tl;dr
The stuff works, but not very well. Antibiotics are still the go-to treatment.

EDIT: Oh, and the midnight moonlight stuff is obviously a load of crap

Thanks for injecting some logic into this discussion. Please do present any evidence you have, I would be interested to see it. As far as antibiotics are concerned, lately there are a lot of resistant "superbugs" going around that are resistant to multiple types of antibiotics. Not only are antibiotics not always effective against them, but overuse also leads to more resistant strains. Doctors are commonly resorting to 3rd and 4th line antibiotics to treat this growing problem. One of the interesting things about colloidal silver is that the mechanism in which it kills viruses and bacteria is different than standard penicillin based antibiotics. Also you are ignoring viral infections, in which case antibiotics are useless except to treat coexisting bacterial infections.

Standard antibiotics work like this:
"Penicillin is an antibiotic that destroys Bacteria by destroying the cell wall of the microorganism. It does this by inactivating an enzyme necessary for the cross linking of bacterial cell walls. The enzyme is known as transpeptidase. It accepts the penicillin as a substrate, it then alkanolates a nucleophilic oxygen of the enzyme, rendering it inactive. Cell wall construction stops and the bacteria soon die. The antibiotic nature of the penicillin is due to the strained b-lactam ring, on opening the ring strain is relieved this makes penicillin more reactive than ordinary amides"
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webprojects2002/thornton/how_does_penicillin_work.htm

Bacterium have evolved to resist this type of attack mostly due to the over use of antibiotics in the meat production industry in combination with poor hygiene standards for the animals. Colloidal silver works in such a different way that viruses and bacteria have difficulty mutating into colloidal silver resistant strains. Here is an example relating to H5N1:

"All current scientific evidence supports that oligodynamic Ag+ hydrosol will denature virtually any protein or nucleic acid 49, 50, 51 that lacks sufficient antioxidant protection or lacks sufficient surveillance by metallothioneins.52 Viruses possess neither system of defense and their endlessly evolving cycle of viral protein mutations cannot shield their recurrent vulnerability to the denaturing action of oligodynamic Ag+. The evidence is quite compelling that over the past century that the Orthomyxoviridae family [e.g., Influenza (species unidentified),53, 54, 55 Influenza A (strains not identified),56, 57 Influenza A (Okuda strain),58 and Influenza B (Haemophilus influenzae)59] has been unable to outwit the virotoxic effects of oligodynamic Ag+ . "
http://www.imref.org/articles/pdfs/Townsend_I.pdf

Related:

"Synthesis and effect of silver nanoparticles on the antibacterial activity of different antibiotics against Staphylococcus aureus and Escherichia coli"
http://www.nanomedjournal.com/article/S1549-9634%2807%2900046-9/abstract

"Safety of Oligodynamic Silver Hydrosols"
http://www.imref.org/articles/pdfs/Safety_of_Oligodynamic_Silver_Hydrosols.pdf

[grue]

[...]

[...]
Mark Stengler, in his book The Natural Physician’s Healing Therapies, writes that he uses colloidal silver for the internal and external treatment of acute infections. He also uses it as an antifungal and antiparasitic agent, giving it to patients internally for infections of the digestive tract. Other holistic doctors, he says, use colloidal silver for the long-term treatment of Lyme disease.

so far, you got a natural physician writing that he uses colloidal server internally. GREAT! now all you have to do is produce a RCT that shows it's more effective than placebo.

[iCEBREAKER]

Grue, you have very poor reading comprehension skills.  

If you have to twist the plain language of the text beyond recognition in order to make it, your point is probably BS.  

EG, Dr. Strengler refers not only to his own practice, but "other holistic doctors" as well.

Keep struggling cupcake.  Your anti-science, pro-FDA jihad against colloidal silver will surely earn you a place in Rabid Fundamentalist Skeptic heaven (plus a dozen virgin Donna Shalalas).

"Marijuana has no recognized medical value.  It is not medicine, no matter how many cancer patients' lives it saves.  Marijuana will not cause the munchies until an RTC proves it does.
Colloidal silver is the devil.  Keep using patented antibiotics until all pathogens develop resistance to them.  Because profit.  Ask Grue, my fellow hater of freedom, for details."

You sound *EXACTLY* like the anti-medical cannabis police state thugs, whining about how you 'merely demand years of fully insured, prohibitively regulated, ludicrously expensive, double-blind, peer-reviewed, fair trade shade grown studies' to prove what has been common knowledge for 5,000 years.

Both of you are fully aware there is no incentive for a company to fund such studies, because colloidal silver and cannabis are not patentable, but that doesn't stop you two from making the demand regardless.  

Why?  Because you are both asshamsters.  

Thank you for your continued interest in Sacred Silver, the first colloidal silver produced exclusively for the Bitcoin community.

[grue]

Grue, you have very poor reading comprehension skills.  
If you have to twist the plain language of the text beyond recognition in order to make it, your point is probably BS.  
EG, Dr. Strengler refers not only to his own practice, but "other holistic doctors" as well.

If you can provide some empirical evidence, that would be great.

just for the fun of it:
Conspiracynutjob1983 is a believer in 9/11 conspiracies. He refers not only to his own practice, but "other conspiracy theorists as well".

You sound *EXACTLY* like the anti-medical cannabis police state thugs, whining about how you 'merely demand years of fully insured, prohibitively regulated, ludicrously expensive, double-blind, peer-reviewed, fair trade shade grown studies' to prove what has been common knowledge for 5,000 years.

you accuse me of appealing to emotion, and now you're using ad homiem? nice.

[iCEBREAKER]

Dear Grue,

I'm not here to defend the entire edifice of whatever passes for holistic medicine, but nice try at retreating into generalities when your attack on the particular failed spectacularly.   

You are aware that many modern doctors incorporate elements of non-western medicine, but you don't care because that fact is inconvenient to the scary FUD associated with holistic medicine with which you are trying to smear colloidal silver.  YLFI: guilt by association, congratulations!

You are also aware that the oligodynamic effect is neither controversial nor a conspiracy theory many people find highly offensive, yet you still throw out a red herring about '9/11 nutjobs.'

How distasteful of you to stand on the graves of the dead in order to defame a well known health product with a very long history of extensive use.   

Couldn't you think of a less inflammatory way to make your (rather silly) point?  Oh that's right, you are here for no reason other than to start flame wars.  Well cupcake, have fun getting trollstomped.

How is it an "appeal to emotion" to point out that both colloidal silver and cannabis both have long (1000+ year) histories of safe, effective prior use but are not studied extensively at present due to lack of patent potential?

I said you "sound like the anti-medical cannabis police state thugs, whining about how you 'merely demand years of fully insured, prohibitively regulated, ludicrously expensive, double-blind, peer-reviewed, fair trade shade grown studies' to prove what has been common knowledge for 5,000 years," not that you are literally a jackbooted thug.  (Asshamster, yes.  JBT, no.)

Thank you for your oddly persistent interest in Sacred Silver (the first colloidal silver product produced exclusively for the Bitcoin community) and your unabiding desire to participate in a conversation devoted to a product you have no intention of buying or even considering buying.  Such devotion is endearing, if a little creepy.   

[TECSHARE]

Notice how Grue has nothing to say to me and the studies I provided. He also hasn't been able to provide evidence of ANYONE who used pure colloidal silver (pure distilled water, and .999+ silver ionized into it) in moderation and was damaged physically by it. You can't even provide just one example? How many examples can be provided of amoxicillin hurting and even killing people? Quite a few. I am not saying one can replace the other completely - but if you are going to talk about safety well it has a pretty impeccable record compared to pretty much any pharmaceutical you could pick out of a hat.

[grue]

Notice how Grue has nothing to say to me and the studies I provided. He also hasn't been able to provide evidence of ANYONE who used pure colloidal silver (pure distilled water, and .999+ silver ionized into it) in moderation and was damaged physically by it. You can't even provide just one example? How many examples can be provided of amoxicillin hurting and even killing people? Quite a few. I am not saying one can replace the other completely - but if you are going to talk about safety well it has a pretty impeccable record compared to pretty much any pharmaceutical you could pick out of a hat.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I questioned colloidal's effectiveness in curing disease when ingested, not whether it's safe.

You are aware that many modern doctors incorporate elements of non-western medicine, but you don't care because that fact is inconvenient to the scary FUD associated with holistic medicine with which you are trying to smear colloidal silver.  YLFI: guilt by association, congratulations!

It's not FUD. There is just no evidence presented in this thread. If you think I missed a piece of evidence, please redirect me to which source I missed. Please note that evidence refers to empirical evidence (from RCTs), not how many physicians wrote about it, or how long the practice has been around.

You are also aware that the oligodynamic effect is neither controversial nor a conspiracy theory many people find highly offensive, yet you still throw out a red herring about '9/11 nutjobs.'

I have never denied the oligodynamic effect. This has been said many times, even you acknowledge this in your posts.

How distasteful of you to stand on the graves of the dead in order to defame a well known health product with a very long history of extensive use.  

Couldn't you think of a less inflammatory way to make your (rather silly) point?  Oh that's right, you are here for no reason other than to start flame wars.  Well cupcake, have fun getting trollstomped.

history of use does NOT constitute evidence unless there were properly controlled trials proving its effectiveness.

How is it an "appeal to emotion" to point out that both colloidal silver and cannabis both have long (1000+ year) histories of safe, effective prior use but are not studied extensively at present due to lack of patent potential?

oh isn't that convenient? a product that has been around for thousands of years has never had its validity verified by modern science? Must be some big phrama conspiracy there. Again, just because it's "common sense" doesn't mean it's automatically true. Remember when it was "common sense" that low temperatures caused the cold?

[iCEBREAKER]

You are aware that many modern doctors incorporate elements of non-western medicine, but you don't care because that fact is inconvenient to the scary FUD associated with holistic medicine with which you are trying to smear colloidal silver.  YLFI: guilt by association, congratulations!

It's not FUD. There is just no evidence presented in this thread. If you think I missed a piece of evidence, please redirect me to which source I missed. Please note that evidence refers to empirical evidence (from RCTs), not how many physicians wrote about it, or how long the practice has been around.

There you go again, moving the goal posts to the horizon by purposefully defining "evidence" in as artificially narrow a way as possible.  Ever heard of the phrase "Evidence of the Senses?"  No?  It's going to come as a shock to you, but there are plenty of kinds of evidence produced outside of RCTs.   

You are also aware that the oligodynamic effect is neither controversial nor a conspiracy theory many people find highly offensive, yet you still throw out a red herring about '9/11 nutjobs.'

I have never denied the oligodynamic effect. This has been said many times, even you acknowledge this in your posts.

Of course you never denied the oligodynamic effect.  That would be stupid.  But so is being unable to discuss colloidal silver without ranting about '9/11 nutjobs.' 

How distasteful of you to stand on the graves of the dead in order to defame a well known health product with a very long history of extensive use.  

Couldn't you think of a less inflammatory way to make your (rather silly) point?  Oh that's right, you are here for no reason other than to start flame wars.  Well cupcake, have fun getting trollstomped.

history of use does NOT constitute evidence unless there were properly controlled trials proving its effectiveness.

Again, you should be able to make that point without resorting to red herrings intended to instigate flame wars.  But thanks anyway for sharing the ugliness of your thought process and depth of your strangely emotional antipathy towards colloidal silver.   

How is it an "appeal to emotion" to point out that both colloidal silver and cannabis both have long (1000+ year) histories of safe, effective prior use but are not studied extensively at present due to lack of patent potential?

oh isn't that convenient? a product that has been around for thousands of years has never had its validity verified by modern science? Must be some big phrama conspiracy there. Again, just because it's "common sense" doesn't mean it's automatically true. Remember when it was "common sense" that low temperatures caused the cold?

Again with the "conspiracy" trigger words.  Why is it so hard for you to understand that a product must be patentable and potentially very profitable in order for a company to justify the massive trouble and exorbitant expense of RTCs?  And FYI, cold temps are conducive to viral propagation for several different reasons.  Now go back to debunking something less complicated and more in line with your limited capabilites, like chemtrails, homeopathy, or astrology.   

[FreedomCoin]

I remember reading somewhere your body never processes the silver out and continued use turns your skin blue. This stuff even legal to sell?

Oprah had a retarded man who abused CS and turned his skin blue on her show in an attempt to discredit colloidal silver.

Colloidal silver is more bullshit snake oil.  Everyone knows it.

Do you speak from experience? If not then please keep your "knowledge" to yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria

[TECSHARE]

I remember reading somewhere your body never processes the silver out and continued use turns your skin blue. This stuff even legal to sell?

Oprah had a retarded man who abused CS and turned his skin blue on her show in an attempt to discredit colloidal silver.

Colloidal silver is more bullshit snake oil.  Everyone knows it.

Do you speak from experience? If not then please keep your "knowledge" to yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria

You have learned how to use Wikipedia, why actually learn about a subject when you can have random people on the internet tell you what to believe!

P.S. The subject of Argyria has been discussed here already in depth, not that you would ever bother reading something before forming an opinion.

[grue]

iCEBREAKER, always nice to have you back.

It's not FUD. There is just no evidence presented in this thread. If you think I missed a piece of evidence, please redirect me to which source I missed. Please note that evidence refers to empirical evidence (from RCTs), not how many physicians wrote about it, or how long the practice has been around.

There you go again, moving the goal posts to the horizon by purposefully defining "evidence" in as artificially narrow a way as possible.  Ever heard of the phrase "Evidence of the Senses?"  No?  It's going to come as a shock to you, but there are plenty of kinds of evidence produced outside of RCTs.   

Tell me how RCTs are considered as narrow. RCTs are the standard in modern, evidence based medicine. You should also know that "Evidence of the Senses" is basically anecdotal evidence, and therefore not reliable.

Also, whether or not RCT results can be reproduced outside of RCTs does not have anything to do with the reliability of non-RCT results.

I have never denied the oligodynamic effect. This has been said many times, even you acknowledge this in your posts.

Of course you never denied the oligodynamic effect.  That would be stupid.  But so is being unable to discuss colloidal silver without ranting about '9/11 nutjobs.' 

uh... ok?

history of use does NOT constitute evidence unless there were properly controlled trials proving its effectiveness.

Again, you should be able to make that point without resorting to red herrings intended to instigate flame wars.  But thanks anyway for sharing the ugliness of your thought process and depth of your strangely emotional antipathy towards colloidal silver.   

How is that a red herring? You were arguing that colloidal silver was effective because of its use throughout history.

oh isn't that convenient? a product that has been around for thousands of years has never had its validity verified by modern science? Must be some big phrama conspiracy there. Again, just because it's "common sense" doesn't mean it's automatically true. Remember when it was "common sense" that low temperatures caused the cold?

Again with the "conspiracy" trigger words.  Why is it so hard for you to understand that a product must be patentable and potentially very profitable in order for a company to justify the massive trouble and exorbitant expense of RTCs?  And FYI, cold temps are conducive to viral propagation for several different reasons.  Now go back to debunking something less complicated and more in line with your limited capabilites, like chemtrails, homeopathy, or astrology.   

>implying all RCTs are funded by drug manufacturers
>implying all RCTs are done solely for the purpose of getting regulatory approval for a drug
>implying universities don't do RCTs for the purpose of advancing human knowledge

case in point: acetylsalicylic acid, an out-of-patent drug has recently shown to reduce the risk of heart attacks and strokes.

[iCEBREAKER]

iCEBREAKER, always nice to have you back.

Tell me how RCTs are considered as narrow. RCTs are the standard in modern, evidence based medicine. You should also know that "Evidence of the Senses" is basically anecdotal evidence, and therefore not reliable.

Also, whether or not RCT results can be reproduced outside of RCTs does not have anything to do with the reliability of non-RCT results.

>implying all RCTs are funded by drug manufacturers
>implying all RCTs are done solely for the purpose of getting regulatory approval for a drug
>implying universities don't do RCTs for the purpose of advancing human knowledge

case in point: acetylsalicylic acid, an out-of-patent drug has recently shown to reduce the risk of heart attacks and strokes.

Thanks grue, we do have lots of fun around here don't we?    

I didn't imply anything about "all RCTs."  My HS English teacher taught me to avoid 'always and never' statements.

Your academic research edge cases are the exception not the rule, and do not dispute my reasoning regarding the results of lack of profit motive meeting exorbitant expense.  

Also, many research institutions are highly dependent of corporate benefactors.  These 'commonize cost, privatize profits' games are euphemistically called 'public-private partnerships.'  (I call them fascism, but that's another topic.)

As you know, there are different types of evidence, with varying qualifying requirements and standards.  IE: Statistical, testimonial, anecdotal, and analogical evidence.

Your myopic fixation on only one kind (statistical) and unwillingness to accept the others is motivated solely by your malicious negative prejudice towards colloidal silver.

If I get a burn (especially sunburn  ) I don't need RCTs to tell me that applying aloe vera is a good idea.  I learned that from my grandma, and it's common sense.

RTCs may help ascertain the efficacy and agents of aloe's action over a large groups of people, but there's no reason for any individual to suffer while waiting for them to be designed/approved/funded/executed/analyzed/reviewed/published/etc.

You may, but I do not live in a socially-constructed reality.  My epistemology is based on rational individualism, which does not discount (and indeed exalts) the evidence of the senses:

In this highly original defense of realism, Atlas Society founder David Kelley argues that perception is the discrimination of objects as entities, that the awareness of these objects is direct, and that perception is a reliable foundation for empirical knowledge. His argument relies on the basic principle of the "primacy of existence," in opposition to Cartesian representationalism and Kantian idealism.

In the first part of the book, Kelley discusses the nature and validity of perception. He argues against classical sensationalist and modern computational theories, according to which perception involves inferences from sensory input. Unlike most realists, he also offers an in-depth consideration of the problems of perceptual relativity. His theory incorporates a key distinction between the object and the form in which it is perceived. This distinction provides insights into the status of phenomenal qualities, the nature of perceptual constancy, and the difference between primary and secondary qualities.

In the second part of the book, Kelley is concerned with the way we distinguish conceptual knowledge from perception. His theory of non-propositional justification shows how perceptual judgments are supported by the direct awareness of objects, and it allows a novel defense of empiricism.

http://www.atlassociety.org/david-kelley-evidence-senses

Again, trusting the FDA's medical advice (RCTs be damned) is like trusting the SEC for investment advice ("Madoff?  Sure, he's a great guy.  A real mench!").
Or like trusting public schools to educate your children.
Or like trusting the Fed with the power to print money.
Or like trusting the FEC to ensure free and fair elections.
Or like trusting the Post Office to deliver mail.  Oh, wait.  That one is actually in the Constitution so NVM.  

[iCEBREAKER]

According to the wiki, RCTs have plenty of their own problems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomized_controlled_trial#Disadvantages

    9.1 Limitations of external validity
    9.2 Costs
    9.3 Time
    9.4 Relative importance of RCTs and observational studies
    9.5 Difficulty in studying rare events
    9.6 Difficulty in studying outcomes in distant future
    9.7 Pro-industry findings in industry-funded RCTs
    9.8 Therapeutic misconception
    9.9 Narrowing of the studied question
    9.10 Statistical error
    9.11 Cultural effects
    9.12 Conflict of interest dangers

Luckily it's a free country so there's no problem with you abstaining from colloidal silver while decrying the choice of millions of consumers to use it when and as they see fit, while happily ignoring your pedantic objections/concern trolling and improve our quality of life with a product well-known to be safe and with a long history of practical value.  

Thanks again for your interest in Sacred Silver, the only colloidal silver product produced exclusively for the Bitcoin community.  Your opinion is important to us, because we appreciate any opportunity to address the misconceptions about, and baseless hostility towards, distilled water containing 10 parts per million of extremely tiny nanoscale silver particles (and ions).

[grue]

If I get a burn (especially sunburn  ) I don't need RCTs to tell me that applying aloe vera is a good idea.  I learned that from my grandma, and it's common sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

bonus:
https://i.minus.com/iVyoG5NjLNBzb.png

Again, trusting the FDA's medical advice (RCTs be damned) is like trusting the SEC for investment advice ("Madoff?  Sure, he's a great guy.  A real mench!").
Or like trusting public schools to educate your children.
Or like trusting the Fed with the power to print money.
Or like trusting the FEC to ensure free and fair elections.

how is this relevant to colloidal silver? your argument is based on mistrust of goverment agencies (opposite of appeal to authority). but even that fails, because I wanted RCTs, regardless of source.

According to the wiki, RCTs have plenty of their own problems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomized_controlled_trial#Disadvantages
[...]

So you don't like randomized controlled trials. What experiments/proof can you provide that shows ingestion of colloidal silver can cure, prevent or diagnose a disease? The evidence you presented so far either do do not lead to the aforementioned conclusion, or is purely speculative.

You may, but I do not live in a socially-constructed reality.  My epistemology is based on rational individualism, which does not discount (and indeed exalts) the evidence of the senses:

Would you so kindly explain what "evidence of the senses" is? Is it just anecdotal evidence?

[Noitev]

It seems like a larger majority of people on the bitcoin forum are conspiracy theorists than the average group. Feel free to sell your wares, I have no reason to stop you, everyone on here has probably made up their minds on how logical this all is and sometimes the things the majority believe in IS untrue and these small miracles make a difference, but in my mind this is another worthless cure-all and I don't want people to get their hopes up.

[iCEBREAKER]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

bonus:
https://i.minus.com/iVyoG5NjLNBzb.png

Would you so kindly explain what "evidence of the senses" is? Is it just anecdotal evidence?

Great example of my point, thanks.  I know, from experience and observation, that aloe makes my sunburn better.  I didn't need the validation from statistical evidence provided by RCTs.  Some less independent herd-minded people do, because they live in a world filled with fear, uncertainty, and doubt (but that's their problem).

Although claimed to be effective, Aloe vera has not been proven to offer protection for humans from sunburn, suntan, or other damage from the sun.  In studies on mice, aloe vera polysaccharides preserved the number and morphology of immunosuppressive and dendritic cells in skin damaged by ultraviolet exposure.

RCTs are great for establishing aloe's method(s?)/agent(s?) of action, but it would be silly to suffer needlessly waiting decades for their results when relief can be provided immediately.

My main concern is with my own utility, not establishing some kind of Grand Truth about samples of large numbers of people or mice.

Evidence of the senses is a form of empirical evidence.  A first-hand account is a form of primary evidence.  RCTs are secondary sources.

Anecdotes are stories you hear from others.  If you're unfamiliar with Objectivist epistemology you should read Kelly's above quoted book.

 grue: "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?"  (argumentum ad auctoritatem,  epistemological Methodism, Fundamentalist Denialism)

   iCEBREAKER: "You don't need a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows."  (Endoxa, Sensus communis, Epistemological particularism)

Objectivist epistemology begins with the principle that "consciousness is identification". This is understood to be a direct consequence of the metaphysical principle that "existence is identity."[17] Rand defined "reason" as "the faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses."[18] Says Rand, "The fundamental concept of method, the one on which all the others depend, is logic. The distinguishing characteristic of logic (the art of non-contradictory identification) indicates the nature of the actions (actions of consciousness required to achieve a correct identification) and their goal (knowledge)—while omitting the length, complexity or specific steps of the process of logical inference, as well as the nature of the particular cognitive problem involved in any given instance of using logic."[19]

According to Rand, consciousness possesses a specific and finite identity, just like everything else that exists; therefore, it must operate by a specific method of validation. An item of knowledge cannot be "disqualified" by being arrived at by a specific process in a particular form. Thus, for Rand, the fact that consciousness must itself possess identity implies the rejection of both universal skepticism based on the "limits" of consciousness, as well as any claim to revelation, emotion or faith based belief.

Objectivist epistemology maintains that all knowledge is ultimately based on perception. "Percepts, not sensations, are the given, the self-evident."[20] Rand considered the validity of the senses to be axiomatic, and claimed that purported arguments to the contrary all commit the fallacy of the "stolen concept"[21] by presupposing the validity of concepts that, in turn, presuppose the validity of the senses.[22] She held that perception, being physiologically determined, is incapable of error. For example, Optical illusions are errors in the conceptual identification of what is seen, not errors in sight itself.[23] The validity of sense perception, therefore, is not susceptible to proof (because it is presupposed by all proof as proof is only a matter of adducing sensory evidence) nor should its validity be denied (since the conceptual tools one would have to use to do this are derived from sensory data). Perceptual error, therefore, is not possible. Rand consequently rejected epistemological skepticism, as she holds that the skeptics' claim to knowledge "undistorted" by the form or the means of perception is impossible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Rand%29#Epistemology:_reason

[TECSHARE]

It seems like a larger majority of people on the bitcoin forum are conspiracy theorists than the average group. Feel free to sell your wares, I have no reason to stop you, everyone on here has probably made up their minds on how logical this all is and sometimes the things the majority believe in IS untrue and these small miracles make a difference, but in my mind this is another worthless cure-all and I don't want people to get their hopes up.

Why bother educating yourself about a subject when you can form an opinion on it while knowing absolutely nothing about it! Life is much easier that way.

[grue]

Great example of my point, thanks.  I know, from experience and observation, that aloe makes my sunburn better.  I didn't need the validation from statistical evidence provided by RCTs.  Some less independent herd-minded people do, because they live in a world filled with fear, uncertainty, and doubt (but that's their problem).

so your logic is: I got sunburn, put on aloe, and now sunburn is better. therefore, aloe heals my sunburn faster. if you had any critical thinking skills, you will see there are tons of biases and variables that you're not accounting for. for all i know, it could be placebo, or your skin healing naturally.

RCTs are great for establishing aloe's method(s?)/agent(s?) of action, but it would be silly to suffer needlessly waiting decades for their results when relief can be provided immediately.

the problem is that studies has not shown that aloe vera aids in skin healing. if aloe vera really did help to heal skin, the results should be reproducible.

Evidence of the senses is a form of empirical evidence.  A first-hand account is a form of primary evidence.  RCTs are secondary sources.

there's nothing wrong with empirical evidence you collected yourself. however, unless the evidence was collected from many sources and in a controlled environment, the result will be subject to bias. i, along with a overwhelming majority of the scientific community prefer RCTs because they were done in a controlled environment, with a large sample group, and conducted in a way to minimize biases.

Anecdotes are stories you hear from others.  If you're unfamiliar with Objectivist epistemology you should read Kelly's above quoted book.

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence#Scientific_context

[ironcross360]

if it can keep milk fresh imagine what it does to your blood! It purifies!

Hey iCEBREAKER,

You should make a video of yourself doing the milk test with your colloidal silver that would be really interesting.

You take 2 glasses of milk, put a tablespoon of colloidal silver in one, and nothing in the other, and leave them out of the fridge.

one goes bad quick and the other doesn't. guess which one doesn't

search "colloidal silver milk test" on youtube!

Sounds like a good fun experiment but it's not necessary because others have already done it, and silver coins have been used to keep water/milk fresh since forever.

[iCEBREAKER]

My logic is "if it works, don't fix it."  IDC about the theoretical hobgoblins (bias, variables, and placebos, OH MY!) you're so worried about enough to let them reduce my quality of life.

If you were capable of rational mentation by form and could understand Rand's Objectivist epistemology, it would be obvious that the evidence of the senses does not require external validation from some collectivist consensus reality predicated on shaky RCTs with their own litany of intrinsic defects (bias, variables, and placebos, OH MY!).

I don't need to know everything about the chemistry of partially acetylated mannan polysaccharides and biological activities of veracylglucan C to simply use aloe effectively.  Just like Hippocrates didn't need to understand the oligodynamic effect when he discussed the use of silver in wound care.

I already read the wiki page on evidence, but will nevertheless continue to maximize my own utility without regard for data describing more general circumstances.  It was mostly a review (I received passing grades in both Philosophy of Science and Theory of Knowledge).

Such data are suspect for many reasons, as illustrated by the problems with obtaining a standardized aloe extract:

It has been claimed that the polysaccharides in A. vera gel have therapeutic properties such as
immunostimulation, anti-inflammatory effects, wound healing, promotion of radiation damage repair,
anti-bacterial, anti-viral, anti-fungal, anti-diabetic and anti-neoplastic activities, stimulation of
hematopoiesis and anti-oxidant effects [4,7,38].

On the other hand, there are a number of clinical reports that have found A. vera gel not effective in
terms of the above mentioned therapeutic activities or even to cause undesirable effects such as
retardation of wound healing. As mentioned before, these conflicting results could be due to the use of
plants from different locations with variations in their chemical composition and also because of
different isolation techniques that were used to extract compounds from the aloe leaf pulp.

The importance of why the specific compounds that were isolated from a plant and then tested in a
particular bioassay should be known can be demonstrated by the potential antagonistic and competitive
activities between constituents. When the two maloylglucans, namely veracylglucan B and C, were
each individually evaluated for biological activities it was found that veracylglucan B demonstrated
high anti-inflammatory and anti-proliferation effects, while veracylglucan C exhibited significant cell
proliferative and anti-inflammatory activities. Therefore, if A. vera gel is tested in a wound healing
experiment and it contains high amounts of veracylglucan B and is perhaps also contaminated with
anthraquinones from the exudate, it will most probably result in retardation of wound healing. If the
gel is obtained from a plant with higher concentrations of veracylglucan C, it would probably end in
positive wound healing results [23].

Furthermore, the polysaccharides found in aloe gel are not stable, especially under stress conditions
such as heat, the presence of acid and enzymatic activities. It has been suggested that a standardised
method is necessary for production of aloe gel products to avoid degradation of the polysaccharides
and thereby preventing the removal of high molecular weight molecules. This standardised and
consistent production process is vital for preserving the natural biological activity of the aloe gel [39].

http://www.mdpi.org/molecules/papers/13081599.pdf

^^This is why it is unreasonable for you to demand I (Capital P) Prove in some absurdly specific manner (RCTs) that the particular aloe plant growing in my particular grandmother's particular garden really did ameliorate the sunburn on my particular skin when applied freshly squeezed from a particular living leaf.

Thank you for your relentless interest in Sacred Silver, the only colloidal silver produced exclusively for the Bitcoin community.   

Your opinion, no matter how ill-informed and calcified, is important to us because we appreciate any opportunity to address the easily dispelled canards commonly regurgitated when on the strangely polarizing subject of tiny amounts of nanometer scale silver particles floating in distilled water.

[Noitev]

So, have you sold any yet?

[Noitev]

750ml bottle, 10 parts per million.


Process  
   Sacred Silver is made only after midnight, when solar interference is at a minimum.
   Sacred Silver is made underground in a dark, empty room with no other sources of electrical fields.
   Sacred Silver is made in the presence of an amethyst and silver based orgonite positive energy generator.
   Sacred Silver contains only distilled water and silver.  No salt, protein, or other additives are ever used.

For the first part, at least have the products you claim to be beneficial in your product, Why pay you .25 BTC for probably less then a cent of pure silver at market price.

If it's because of your process, Pretty sure that the silver is gonna come into contact with electric and magnetic fields before you put it in water. and even then everything you've posted doesn't mention this abstract process.

Silver DOES have medical applications, I've gotten cisplatin which contains the heavy metal platinum, but don't pick and choose what benefits it has against when other research says it's a placebo, especially at 10 ppm considering thats basically homeopathy of silver.

More power to you if you wanna take silver compounds, I can't stop you, but at least get it from someone who sells it at not insane prices, your literally making 98% profit

[seannnyx]

price negotiable? 

[str4wm4n]

Just ordered a bottle on bitmit! Please ship ASAP! Thank you!

[iCEBREAKER]

So, have you sold any yet?

Yes.  Congratulations to str4wm4n, our first customer!   

Why pay you .25 BTC for probably less then a cent of pure silver at market price.

If it's because of your process, Pretty sure that the silver is gonna come into contact with electric and magnetic fields before you put it in water. and even then everything you've posted doesn't mention this abstract process.

Silver DOES have medical applications, I've gotten cisplatin which contains the heavy metal platinum, but don't pick and choose what benefits it has against when other research says it's a placebo, especially at 10 ppm considering thats basically homeopathy of silver.

More power to you if you wanna take silver compounds, I can't stop you, but at least get it from someone who sells it at not insane prices, your literally making 98% profit

My colloid generator, including silver electrodes and PPM/TDS meter, cost over $200.  I just payed almost $29 to ship the first order, and so will have to raise the price.

You obviously didn't bother making even a cursory effort to look at the market for colloidal silver before hitting 'reply' and proceeding to yammer about things about which you know absolutely nothing.  Allow me to dispel your knee-jerk objections and half-witted irrelevancies.

The cheapest CS on Amazon is about $1.31/oz: http://www.amazon.com/Silverbiotics-American-Biotech-Labs-Biotics/dp/B009D0WBWI/

Sacred Silver was originally $1.14/oz and is now $1.34/oz.  My single bottle price matches (and in bulk, beats) the best on Amazon, so it's idiotic to call them "insane" (unless you mean 'insanely low').

Cisplatin has terrible side effects and is not made with silver.  Why would you even bring it up?  Do you not understand that silver and platinum are entirely different elements?

Colloidal silver works because of the oligodynamic effect and has nothing to do with homeopathy.  For homeopathy, nominal dilution is one part in a million.  Sacred Silver is 10 parts per million.  Are you really too retarded to understand the difference between science and quackery?

I am not "literally making 98% profit."  You are a liar and a buffoon.  I made almost nothing from my first order and now have to raise the price by $5 to make it worthwhile.

Thank you for your interest in Sacred Silver, the first colloidal silver produced exclusively for the Bitcoin community.

We regret that while colloidal silver destroys nearly all pathogens (fungal, viral, bacterial), it unfortunately cannot cure your blithering ignorance.   

[Noitev]

So, have you sold any yet?

Yes.  Congratulations to str4wm4n, our first customer!  

Why pay you .25 BTC for probably less then a cent of pure silver at market price.

If it's because of your process, Pretty sure that the silver is gonna come into contact with electric and magnetic fields before you put it in water. and even then everything you've posted doesn't mention this abstract process.

Silver DOES have medical applications, I've gotten cisplatin which contains the heavy metal platinum, but don't pick and choose what benefits it has against when other research says it's a placebo, especially at 10 ppm considering thats basically homeopathy of silver.

More power to you if you wanna take silver compounds, I can't stop you, but at least get it from someone who sells it at not insane prices, your literally making 98% profit

My colloid generator, including silver electrodes and PPM/TDS meter, cost over $200.  I just payed almost $29 to ship the first order, and so will have to raise the price.

You obviously didn't bother making even a cursory effort to look at the market for colloidal silver before hitting 'reply' and proceeding to yammer about things about which you know absolutely nothing.  Allow me to dispel your knee-jerk objections and half-witted irrelevancies.

The cheapest CS on Amazon is about $1.31/oz: http://www.amazon.com/Silverbiotics-American-Biotech-Labs-Biotics/dp/B009D0WBWI/

Sacred Silver was originally $1.14/oz and is now $1.34/oz.  My single bottle price matches (and in bulk, beats) the best on Amazon, so it's idiotic to call them "insane" (unless you mean 'insanely low').

Cisplatin has terrible side effects and is not made with silver.  Why would you even bring it up?  Do you not understand that silver and platinum are entirely different elements?

Colloidal silver works because of the oligodynamic effect and has nothing to do with homeopathy.  For homeopathy, nominal dilution is one part in a million.  Sacred Silver is 10 parts per million.  Are you really too retarded to understand the difference between science and quackery?

I am not "literally making 98% profit."  You are a liar and a buffoon.  I made almost nothing from my first order and now have to raise the price by $5 to make it worthwhile.

Thank you for your interest in Sacred Silver, the first colloidal silver produced exclusively for the Bitcoin community.

We regret that while colloidal silver destroys nearly all pathogens (fungal, viral, bacterial), it unfortunately cannot cure your blithering ignorance.  

For homeopathy, nominal dilution is one part in a million.  Sacred Silver is 10 parts per million.  Are you really too retarded to understand the difference between science and quackery?

To address your homeopathy claims, it is common for an agent in homeopathy to be 10 ppm, anything from 1 part per hundred to 1 part per googol isn't unheard of. I'm kind of surprised you believe in the science of colloidal silver and not homeopathy.

For the claim it's been used for a hundred years, so have many other unsafe drugs or ineffective drugs, that is until modern medicine had come along and proven that silver used back then was dangerous. Why else would the medical community stop using it back then if it was so good at what you claim it does?

All of the medical benefits you speak of are incredibly vague. When people refute you, you say it works for yourself and their research isn't credible (even though it is.) When EVERY point you have made has been "eh, it works for me and my friends" and if you try to bring cherry picked reviews for people hailing it as a miracle cure, I'm sure you'll find a significant number saying it does nothing (But to be fair, calling water a miracle cure does have benefits as a placebo, so it's a total lie to say it has no benefits, it's just profiting you more than the people suffering considering you can just give them tap water and have them make the same claims). If you're saying that the scientific method isn't a reliable approach and that we should trust some random strangers we don't know against the very significant amount of medical data that at least tries to post some information, than I really can't take you seriously.

The reason i brought up cisplatin is that it is similar to silver in the sense that it kills cells indiscriminately (cisplatin is better because it targets cancer cells to a higher degree). silver gold and platinum have no reason to be in the body and you can be healthy without consuming any of them, but I realize I was wrong with my assessment that it was a heavy metal. To be honest cisplatin saved my life and it really irritates me when I hear people talk about some miracle drug no one wants to publish because it's a big conspiracy. If silver had a REAL clinical use, however small, it'd be given fast track drug status like many other drugs have. What do you think the FDA exists for? There's a reason you can't market this as having and medical benefits, a la Intended for ceremonial and/or religious use only.

It cost you $200 dollars for a machine that allows you to sell water with trace amounts of elemental silver. This machine can probably make gallons of silver water for about 2 cents an ounce. once you sell 7 orders you've made a profit and can continue to sell at the astronomical margin of about 98%. (6 orders now that you intend to raise the price!) Also a quick note $59 for three.  $15 each in a 6 pack. so for 1 dollar more I can get 6 bottles??

The bulk order one slays me. Just because other people rip consumers off doesn't mean you have the right to. for the price of 3 of your products, you can buy a machine that does it for you, and after you've consumed them, you can make more for pennies. (I wouldn't even mind you selling that since it isn't just indistinguishable from water without the use of specialized equipment.)

What I think happened was that you had a business idea to buy a machine that returns its investment nearly instantly (after 6 orders) and that it's literally a cash cow after. I just want to see more legitimate btc businesses than people selling distilled water.

It's very obvious that you only care about selling your product, but if you are a potential buyer and aren't swayed by any medical evidence that shows it kills nearly all microorganisms that make up your body (leading to its discontinuation decades ago). and you INSIST on using it, at least make it yourself to ensure quality and if you plan on doing so for prolonged periods of time.

Also, can you explain what any of this garbage means?

Process  
   Sacred Silver is made only after midnight, when solar interference is at a minimum.
   Sacred Silver is made underground in a dark, empty room with no other sources of electrical fields.
   Sacred Silver is made in the presence of an amethyst and silver based orgonite positive energy generator.

[BitCoinUser123]

I`m still relatively new here, but this is thus far one of the most epic argument threads I have seen.

As far as the colloidal silver thing - if you
1) Believe the OP`s stance on the effects of colloidal silver
2) Trust his methods
3) Believe that the stuff works

Then go for it.

Scroll to the bottom for a summary of the argument and conclusions, as I see them.

I`m new to the thread and the community, so I apologize in advance if I offend or upset.  It is my intention to consolidate and to share my own views on this subject, but it is not my intention to step on the toes of the OP or any of the previous participants.

I have in past used all kinds of natural / herbal / folk remedies, including this stuff.  Some of them (anecdotally) worked for the intended purposes.  Some of them do in fact have reproducible and / or peer-reviewed evidence to back them, but Randomized Clinical Trials are not the singular method of assessing clinical usefulness.  Evidence-based medicine is great, and it is the single most effective method of allocating scarce medical resources in a way that yields the greatest gains over time to large numbers of people.  However, it is equally disingenuous to say `RCTs or it didn`t happen` as it is to say `Dr. Bozo van Huckster writes of using these products on himself, his chickens, and a variety of other patients.  He also writes of OTHER holistic health professionals who think he is the bees` knees.` (No disrespect to OP or to holistic health professionals - that is simply bad writing with an appeal to authority in place of actual evidence, even where that evidence may in fact exist).

I`m not criticizing the validity of either of those points.  I`m saying that there are standards of evidence both beyond the OP`s and before the standard of an RCT, which does in fact have a lot of the biases alluded to, not least of which is patentability and thereby profit motive for major pharmaceutical companies.

In the USA unlike most other Western countries, people are permitted to sell whatever they damn well please, provided that they do not make any claims that it is intended to diagnose, treat or cure any disease or disorder.  The exception is when an item is proven to be innately harmful, in which case it is simply illegal to be sold *as a health food or supplement* although  it may remain available for sale for other purposes.  However, `harmful` is a sliding scale depending on the gravity of the situation (which on my view is shorthand for political expediency).

My view is that the system and the free(ish) market are working so long as you are able to more or less any supplement or product, produced by any method that appeals to you, without making unproven claims that the product is suitable to diagnose, treat or cure any disease.  But the OP has in fact crossed from selling a generic supplement which *somebody*, *somewhere* has used for a particular purpose, into the realm of assuring that it can be used to diagnose, treat or cure a range of disorders.  That could stand him in bad stead with the FDA or relevant regulators in other countries.

I`m not arguing about the efficacy of this particular product.  I am telling you that if you don`t have an appropriately Randomized Clinical Trials and/or reports in peer-reviewed articles about a substance, you cannot legally claim that it will serve to diagnose, treat or cure a given disease.  The product may well be useful for the stated purpose, but you can`t legally make that direct causal claim.  If you want to discuss what it has done for you PERSONALLY, go ahead.  If you want to produce anecdotal examples of other people it has helped, or clearly outline cases where it was used in past (both of which you seem to have done), then fill your boots.  But I can say pretty conclusively that assuring the product is in FACT useful for diagnosing, treating or curing a range of diseases or illnesses falls foul of the guidance on this matter.  Whether those rules are arbitrary, unfair, or only enforced by jackbooted thugs is a totally separate issue.

I have extensive involvement with modern medicine, as well as `folklore` and holistic medicine.  I grew up in a community that would use poultices and herbal remedies of all sorts to treat various things - but with that said, we were in a fairly remote area and had direct personal access to the relevant plants.  The reproducible nature of many these effects (be it aloe to speed burn healing, homemade probiotic yogurt to improve digestive ailments, whatever) does at least lead to the suggestion that some of them are effective, to some degree, for some specific individuals, in some specific instances.  In some cases this definitely does include placebo effect, which is frequently more powerful even than pharmaceuticals.  Thus, if someone has an ailment which I have experienced and they are finding the modern medical response insufficient or unduly expensive, I have no problem explaining the methods I have seen or used in past.  That leaves it to the individual in question to determine whether and how well it works, as well as to do all relevant research to assess safety of the methods.

I think that it`s a problem for a seller to assert that a product WILL have specific health effects when (under law) those effects have been inadequately proven.  I think it is a problem for customers to purchase such an item purely on the basis that the seller said as much.

I similarly think that it is a problem to suggest that without an RCT, any given product is ineffective and should be outlawed.  As someone who has had cancer, and who would not have lived into adolescence without modern Western / allopathic medical intervention, including radical surgery, I have great respect for modern medicine and specifically for the evidence-based school of thought.  To claim that ONLY Western medicine or that ONLY evidence-based medicine (which is a still-narrower sub-school of thought) has any validity, is hubris. 

People have the freedom to eat, drink, and generally do what they want.  With that freedom comes a responsibility to question and research everything people say.  The law (as it currently stands) permits you to make claims as to health benefits only in certain evidentiary circumstances.  I don`t claim that these are the right circumstances, and I don`t claim that the claims permitted are always perfect - but there is a certain degree of consistency, and it leads people to a position of comfort, allowing them to trust certain health / medical claims without having to themselves become experts in the relevant fields.

If the OP wants to sell his silver water, more power to him.  I believe that`s what radical freedom is about.  If further commenters want to doubt the validity of his claims, more power to them also.  I think these claims should be doubted.  But it`s ingenuous for both sides to pre-determine what will constitute evidence and then rule out the possibility of the other side having any validity.

In this matter, if you want to be safe, you need to become an expert in the matter and then decide for yourself.  I personally will not be imbibing any form of liquid silver in any quantity, but then I also minimize intake of silver through fish.  My favourite athletic garments (Under Armour, actually) and running-specific socks have small amounts of silver built into the fabric as one of the antibacterial and possibly antifungal agents that keep them from stinking to high heaven after I`ve been wearing them and running / working all day.  The silver preparation (which also includes chemical antimicrobial agents) does work, anecdotally, as when wearing them I do not smell like a homeless man even after a long day of travelling and hauling luggage.

I think that we can all generally agree that:

- Silver (in various forms) is known to have antibacterial effects.  Medical and general fact. Known for a long time, as evidenced by materials on both sides throughout this thread.
- Current medical opinion is that there is insufficient information to rate safety or effectiveness in treating most medical conditions with colloidal silver.
- Silver (in various forms) is believed by some people to have antifungal effects.  There is controversy, and inadequate evidence to describe it as a medical certainty.
- Silver (in various forms) is believed by some people to have antiviral effects.  There is controversy, and inadequate evidence to describe it as a medical certainty.
- Silver is not an essential mineral in the human body like copper, zinc, iron, magnesium, etc.  Medical and general fact.
- You may experience drug interactions if you take colloidal silver with tetracycline, quinolones and thyroxine medications. (Medical fact)
- Silver itself is not toxic, but most silver salts are.  Medical and biological fact.
- Silver is used in food coloring; it has the E174 designation and is approved in the European Union for this purpose (But not the United States).
- Silver ingestion can lead to a skin condition called Argyria (or argyrosis in the eye)

This is a permanent skin pigmentation change - making you look like a bluish tin man.  This is a medical fact.  The specific concentration of silver necessary to lead to this condition is not well know from the research that I can see.  It is clear that a lower concentration of imbibed silver would (at least) take a longer time to lead to such a condition.  If the concentration is sufficiently low that your organs are able to process and excrete it, then you may indefinitely avoid this disorder.  This disorder is apparently not itself harmful, but may be accompanied by other side effects depending on the type of silver ingested.

Miracles are (at best) exceedingly rare, and miracle cures all the more so.  Eating properly, exercising, and sleeping will do amazing things for you.  My colleagues think that I must have some secret because I am never sick - but those boring things are pretty much the answer for me.

Whether you are buying over the counter OR prescription drugs OR `natural` health supplements, make sure you`ve done your research.

I just saw that this thread was long, convoluted and tough to read for a newcomer.  I came away saying "What, if anything have we concluded here?"  I don`t think there HAS been a conclusion, nor do I think that there realistically can be.  Some believe the OP to be malicious and willfully ignorant, while the OP and some with similar views believe all opposed to be blinded followers of statism.  I don`t think that either one of those is strictly the case, but it is clear that both sides disagree strongly and that each has strong and somewhat sound personal reasons for their viewpoints.

As far as I`m concerned, you can undertake any kind of dietary regime you like, but it is wise to make sure that you understand what exactly these things are really doing to your body.  In general, the unchallenged word of a salesman (whether friendly bitcoiner or Big Pharma) or of either a fan or a detractor with any kind of ideological bias for or against entire classes of substances (no disrespect to earlier participants) are poor bases on which to make important health decisions.  Nobody but you (and to some degree, the people who love or rely upon you) will be affected by your health decisions.  I recommend you take ownership of those decisions and make sure you`re using the best information available as determined by the value system which you consider most relevant.  If you only trust Randomized Clinical Trials, search the medical literature and make a decision based on the information contained therein.  If small trials and personal anecdotes coupled with a examination of the chemical compounds in question are good enough, have at`er.  Decide what evidence hurdle you need met and make your choices on that basis.  I think that everybody should have the right to make free, informed choices on what products they will buy.  Sellers should absolutely be forbidden from making unsubstantiated or unprovable claims, and sellers should think carefully about what those words mean before speaking about their products.

But the bottom line is that consumers should not be assumed to be stupid.  If I want to drink raw milk, eat less-than-completely cooked food, or consume dubious metallic potions, I have the right to do so.  I will ensure that I have adequate information, and I will make myself very comfortable that the seller isn`t confused or misrepresenting his product, and then I will make a buying decision.

Again, I apologize if I seem at all to be soapboxing and I hope this post is useful.

[TECSHARE]

BitCoinUser123,

Your seemingly non-bias points at the beginning of this gigantic screed later revealed themselves to be nothing more than the same arguments already made here while attempting to give your own argument validity by admitting your own human fallibility. Your ego doesn't rule your logic, you want a cookie?

As far as documented empirical data, you claim there are no studies supporting the safety and efficacy of colloidal silver, and I argue that you haven't bothered to even read thru this thread completely to read them, let alone research this subject yourself. As far as FDA regulation, it is designed to crush anything but corporate sanctioned pharmacological and food products, also giving those industries a pass on some very important regulations that ACTUALLY protect us from harm on a global scale.

But hey, I guess this one guy selling silver suspended in water is the real threat, lets all focus on him and pretend we have expertise because that guy said colloidal silver is bad, all the while never once trying it yourself, talking to anyone who has, or spending a single minute of your time to actually research the subject.

The fact is people attack this subject with almost a fundamentalist religious view - it doesn't matter if colloidal silver has been proven to be safe or effective because I BELIEVE it is harmful! If you dare to tell me otherwise I will attack you as if you threatened my faith. This type of belief system is pervasive in EVERY field, its not hard to spot once you recognize it for what it is - ego masturbation.

[BitCoinUser123]

Neither the rudeness nor the condescension are necessary. 

I`m not claiming that there are no studies.  However, there are not any Randomized Controlled Trials demonstrating the efficacy of ingestion of colloidal silver for the purposes of curing any disease. That lack is for many reasons, including the fact that the FDA is predisposed toward protecting the interests of Big Pharma and encouraging the use of patentable chemical extracts and synthetic compounds, making it unlikely that they would ever acknowledge such a study.  If you consider the FDA to be a racket and you reject the validity of western industrial medicine/Big Pharma - well, I don`t completely agree, but I don`t consider it an altogether unreasonable viewpoint either. You`re certainly right on one thing though - if both sides of the argument can't recognize the other side's points as even having valid bases, the whole discussion dissolves into a spat between  opposing faiths with each side trying to cite its holy book for evidence.

At any rate, the absence of those particular studies is a fact, and it is a dealbreaker for some people.  That`s their choice, on the basis of the information that is important to them.  Maybe they need to broaden their horizons, maybe we need a far better vetting system than the FDA and the likes of Pfizer.

My post could have been shorter, but you can scroll through and not read it.  I thought an approximate, relatively balanced restatement might help newcomers who didn`t plan to read the whole thread but who might put up with my `gigantic screed.  Maybe I was wrong.  If so, ignoring me would serve you better than trying to run me down.

I tried to summarize the stuff that was in minimal dispute, and the stuff that was in serious dispute.  There are points FOR silver's historical use as an antiseptic, there is the point that not all silver is created equal and different kinds have different effects on the human body.  There are also points that could support a position against human consumption of silver in any form.  People can make up their own minds.

I did read through the entire thread, and I did spend more than a single minute to actually research the subject, even though I didn't come away with the precise view that you do.  That research is why I didn`t attack, and that is why I have no desire to discredit the product.  Maybe it works, maybe it doesn`t.  I don`t personally have enough evidence to convince myself one way or the other.  I`m entirely confident it won`t kill you the first time you drink it, and if it is prepared properly I wouldn`t expect it to kill you with prolonged usage.  I`m more interested in encouraging people to research it thoroughly for themselves than in pressing them to adopt a particular viewpoint. 

Snide condescension doesn't support the idea that you`re enlightened and anybody who doesn`t see things your way is a blinded zealot.  Your rudeness is kind of alienating to newcomers who are either honestly skeptical or who have questions but still might consider using the stuff.  I don`t think colloidal silver is public enemy # 1, but I also don`t yet share your entire viewpoint.  Not an attack.

I`m sorry if my original post was longer than you`d like, but I am not your enemy.

[iCEBREAKER]

I'm kind of surprised you believe in the science of colloidal silver and not homeopathy.

Your surprise is entirely the result of your ignorance and subsequent flawed premises.  Chief among them being that the oligodynamic effect and homeopathy are related, and not entirely separate, phenomena.

Here, I'll be altruistic and provide you with a clue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect

The oligodynamic effect (Greek: oligos = few, Greek: dynamis = force) was discovered in 1893 by the Swiss Karl Wilhelm von Nägeli as a toxic effect of metal ions on living cells, algae, molds, spores, fungi, viruses, prokaryotic and eukaryotic microorganisms, even in relatively low concentrations.

The exact mechanism of action is still unknown.  Data from silver suggest that these ions denature enzymes of the target cell or organism by binding to reactive groups, resulting in their precipitation and inactivation.  Silver inactivates enzymes by reacting with the thiol groups to form silver sulfides.  Silver also reacts with the amino-, carboxyl-, phosphate-, and imidazole-groups and diminish the activities of lactate dehydrogenase and glutathione peroxidase.

Silver is capable of rendering stored drinking water potable for several months. For this reason, water tanks on ships and airplanes are often "silvered".  Silver compounds such as silver sulfadiazine are used externally in wound and burn treatments.[5] Silver nanoparticles, obtained by irradiating a silver nitrate solution with an electron beam, are effective bactericides, destroying gram-negative species immune to conventional antibacterial agents.  Silver-coated medical implants and devices have been shown to be more resistant to biofilm formation.

Now you have no excuse to continue laboring under the false belief that colloidal silver has anything whatsoever to do with homeopathy (or Cisplatin). 

Thank you for your interest in Sacred Silver, the only colloidal silver produced exclusively for the Bitcoin community!

[iCEBREAKER]

I`m still relatively new here, but this is thus far one of the most epic argument threads I have seen.

Woot!  Thanks.  That's high praise considering This. Is.  B I T C O I N T A L K, the epicenter of all Internet Nerd Drama.   

dubious metallic potions

The oligodynamic effect has been established science since 1893.  Source: v. Nägeli K.W. 1893. Über oligodynamische Erscheinungen in lebenden Zellen. Neue Denkschr. Allgemein. Schweiz. Gesellsch. Ges. Naturweiss. Bd XXXIII Abt 1.

Rolling your eyes and indulging in unjustified snark only make you a doubting Thomas, not cool or insightful.

Neither the rudeness nor the condescension are necessary.

I'll consider that a mea culpa for your "dubious potion" wisecrack.   

Snide condescension doesn't support the idea that you`re enlightened

OK, OK.  We forgive your previous misbehavior.  No need to keep apologizing and beating yourself up for it.  Let's move on, as pals. 

[Noitev]

Whatever, I wasted too much time on this. All i suggest is setting the price to something like, $10. You are right that it does purify water, but the health benefit claims are dubious. Using minute amounts of Iodine and alcohol both have antimicrobial properties, but you can buy it much cheaper and it's probably better considering we know how it's properties work.

[grue]

The fact is people attack this subject with almost a fundamentalist religious view - it doesn't matter if colloidal silver has been proven to be safe or effective because I BELIEVE it is harmful! If you dare to tell me otherwise I will attack you as if you threatened my faith. This type of belief system is pervasive in EVERY field, its not hard to spot once you recognize it for what it is - ego masturbation.

No, I attack this because I don't want other people to get their hopes up buying a quack product. Their time and money can be better used finding real cures, not some cure-all supported by anecdotal evidence. But apparently, him and many others don't have a problem with pure anecdotal evidence. In fact, they either don't care, or deny the documented issues with anecdotal evidence:

IDC about the theoretical hobgoblins (bias, variables, and placebos, OH MY!)

The thing is, if a product really did work, it should be reproducible in many environments, including RCTs. However, there are no RCTs supporting colloidal silver's efficacy. iCEBREAKER thinks this is totally ok because no one will ever fund such a study, therefore it's totally ok to believe in colloidal silver without rigorous evidence.

[BitCoinUser123]

Let's move on, as pals. 

Deal. 

[TECSHARE]

The fact is people attack this subject with almost a fundamentalist religious view - it doesn't matter if colloidal silver has been proven to be safe or effective because I BELIEVE it is harmful! If you dare to tell me otherwise I will attack you as if you threatened my faith. This type of belief system is pervasive in EVERY field, its not hard to spot once you recognize it for what it is - ego masturbation.

No, I attack this because I don't want other people to get their hopes up buying a quack product. Their time and money can be better used finding real cures, not some cure-all supported by anecdotal evidence. But apparently, him and many others don't have a problem with pure anecdotal evidence. In fact, they either don't care, or deny the documented issues with anecdotal evidence:

IDC about the theoretical hobgoblins (bias, variables, and placebos, OH MY!)

The thing is, if a product really did work, it should be reproducible in many environments, including RCTs. However, there are no RCTs supporting colloidal silver's efficacy. iCEBREAKER thinks this is totally ok because no one will ever fund such a study, therefore it's totally ok to believe in colloidal silver without rigorous evidence.

Riddle me this smart guy....
If you truly believe that there is no evidence unless there are RCTs conducted... what magical part of science allows you to declare colloidal silver INEFFECTIVE without any RCTs? Funny how your logic only seems to work for your argument but anything contrary just gets glossed over.

[ISAWHIM]

Colloidal silver turns you blue... DO NOT DRINK IT or use it to soak your skin in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahihGKZC5Kk

Don't buy this crap. It gives you permanent irreversible damage to your body. That is why no doctor uses this, and the FDA has warnings against people trying to sell this on the market.

You might as well drink bleach... it kills pathogens too!

FYI, colloidal silver kills GOOD and BAD pathogens. Just like bleach.

It is good for you to wash your counters and toilets with, but bleach is more effective and cheaper.

[TECSHARE]

Colloidal silver turns you blue... DO NOT DRINK IT or use it to soak your skin in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahihGKZC5Kk

Don't buy this crap. It gives you permanent irreversible damage to your body. That is why no doctor uses this, and the FDA has warnings against people trying to sell this on the market.

You might as well drink bleach... it kills pathogens too!

FYI, colloidal silver kills GOOD and BAD pathogens. Just like bleach.

It is good for you to wash your counters and toilets with, but bleach is more effective and cheaper.

Polly want a cracker? Way to not read the thread.

For anyone who is not resistant to educating themselves: http://www.rsc.org/delivery/_ArticleLinking/DisplayHTMLArticleforfree.cfm?JournalCode=MD&Year=2010&ManuscriptID=c0md00069h&Iss=Advance_Article#cit59

[grue]

Riddle me this smart guy....
If you truly believe that there is no evidence unless there are RCTs conducted... what magical part of science allows you to declare colloidal silver INEFFECTIVE without any RCTs? Funny how your logic only seems to work for your argument but anything contrary just gets glossed over.

That's a strawman. All I said was that there was no evidence showing colloidal's effectiveness in curing, preventing or diagnosing any known disease.

[TECSHARE]

Riddle me this smart guy....
If you truly believe that there is no evidence unless there are RCTs conducted... what magical part of science allows you to declare colloidal silver INEFFECTIVE without any RCTs? Funny how your logic only seems to work for your argument but anything contrary just gets glossed over.

That's a strawman. All I said was that there was no evidence showing colloidal's effectiveness in curing, preventing or diagnosing any known disease.

Not at all. My very point is by YOUR OWN LOGIC you are no more correct concluding it is ineffective than he is concluding it IS effective. Since neither position can be proven according to your standards, you are just as erroneous concluding it is ineffective, and therefore you are a hypocrite.

You aren't here to protect anyone. You are here to stroke your ego and attack people whom you do not agree with because it entertains you. A quick look thru your post history demonstrates this clearly. Stop patronizing this forum like they are all children incapable of critical thought to make their own choices.

[grue]

Not at all. My very point is by YOUR OWN LOGIC you are no more correct concluding it is ineffective than he is concluding it IS effective. Since neither position can be proven according to your standards, you are just as erroneous concluding it is ineffective, and therefore you are a hypocrite.

you do realize in medicine, the null hypothesis is that substance x does not cure/prevent/diagnose any known illness, right? therefore, without any conclusive proof, it's assumed that substance x does nothing. (inb4 you claim this standard is because of big phrama/government)

You aren't here to protect anyone. You are here to stroke your ego and attack people whom you do not agree with because it entertains you. A quick look thru your post history demonstrates this clearly. Stop patronizing this forum like they are all children incapable of critical thought to make their own choices.

ad hominem

[TECSHARE]

Not at all. My very point is by YOUR OWN LOGIC you are no more correct concluding it is ineffective than he is concluding it IS effective. Since neither position can be proven according to your standards, you are just as erroneous concluding it is ineffective, and therefore you are a hypocrite.

you do realize in medicine, the null hypothesis is that substance x does not cure/prevent/diagnose any known illness, right? therefore, without any conclusive proof, it's assumed that substance x does nothing. (inb4 you claim this standard is because of big phrama/government)

You aren't here to protect anyone. You are here to stroke your ego and attack people whom you do not agree with because it entertains you. A quick look thru your post history demonstrates this clearly. Stop patronizing this forum like they are all children incapable of critical thought to make their own choices.

ad hominem

Try reading your own wiki articles before you post them. Just because some one described this situation doesn't AGAIN mean you get to declare the substance in question ineffective. You don't practice science you practice selective learning. My point has been left unchallenged. You proclaim it is not scientific to make assumptions, and by your own standards (which you dutifully ignore for the sake of ego) your conclusions HAVE NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS.

"a null hypothesis is potentially rejected or disproved on the basis of data that is significantly under its assumption, but never accepted or proved. In the hypothesis testing approach of Jerzy Neyman and Egon Pearson, a null hypothesis is contrasted with an alternative hypothesis, and these are decided between on the basis of data, with certain error rates. These two approaches criticized each other, though today a hybrid approach is widely practiced and presented in textbooks."

As far as the claim of ad hominem, it is in fact not a personal attack. Clearly this is an observation of your behavior I am noting over a period of years DIRECTLY RELATED to your activities here. If you would like to see real ad hominem attacks I would be glad to go back in your post history to find some examples for you.

[grue]

Try reading your own wiki articles before you post them. Just because some one described this situation doesn't AGAIN mean you get to declare the substance in question ineffective. You don't practice science you practice selective learning. My point has been left unchallenged. You proclaim it is not scientific to make assumptions, and by your own standards (which you dutifully ignore for the sake of ego) your conclusions HAVE NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS.

Are you just circling back on yourself? I'll say it again: I never claimed that colloidal silver was ineffective. I am claiming that no one should take colloidal silver to treat/prevent/diagnose an illness because there is no evidence showing it does.

Why anyone would use a product to treat/diagnose/prevent an illness, even though there is no rigorous evidence showing its effectiveness is beyond me.

"a null hypothesis is potentially rejected or disproved on the basis of data that is significantly under its assumption, but never accepted or proved. In the hypothesis testing approach of Jerzy Neyman and Egon Pearson, a null hypothesis is contrasted with an alternative hypothesis, and these are decided between on the basis of data, with certain error rates. These two approaches criticized each other, though today a hybrid approach is widely practiced and presented in textbooks."

and if you look one sentence after that...

This hybrid is in turn criticized as incorrect and incoherent – see statistical hypothesis testing.

top lel

As far as the claim of ad hominem, it is in fact not a personal attack. Clearly this is an observation of your behavior I am noting over a period of years DIRECTLY RELATED to your activities here. If you would like to see real ad hominem attacks I would be glad to go back in your post history to find some examples for you.

that is the very definition of an ad hominem. you're referencing my post history, which has nothing to do with my arguments presented in this thread. At best that's a red herring.

[TECSHARE]

Not at all. My very point is by YOUR OWN LOGIC you are no more correct concluding it is ineffective than he is concluding it IS effective. Since neither position can be proven according to your standards, you are just as erroneous concluding it is ineffective, and therefore you are a hypocrite.

you do realize in medicine, the null hypothesis is that substance x does not cure/prevent/diagnose any known illness, right? therefore, without any conclusive proof, it's assumed that substance x does nothing. (inb4 you claim this standard is because of big phrama/government)

You aren't here to protect anyone. You are here to stroke your ego and attack people whom you do not agree with because it entertains you. A quick look thru your post history demonstrates this clearly. Stop patronizing this forum like they are all children incapable of critical thought to make their own choices.

ad hominem

First of all you are just repeating yourself at this point. I understand the theory completely all though I am not convinced you do. Your key word there is ASSUMED, which is not a fact based conclusion. Also I might remind you for the second time that this theory is not accepted as indisputable fact. It is a process method for organizing information, not some magical definition you can pull out of a Google search to make you more correct.

If it was indisputable fact, no one would ever discover ANYTHING new. Additionally you are taking parts of my conversations from before where I was talking about pharmaceutical corporations not funding RCTs out of context and attempting to make it look as if that is my logic behind every single point I make. This time it is about YOU and the failure in your own logic. Taking my words out of context wont help you. The fact is you don't even follow your own standards that you attempt to apply to others, and you are contradicting yourself by your own logic. Just pretending you don't, or copy and pasting a thousand Wikipedia definitions wont make it less true.

[TECSHARE]

Try reading your own wiki articles before you post them. Just because some one described this situation doesn't AGAIN mean you get to declare the substance in question ineffective. You don't practice science you practice selective learning. My point has been left unchallenged. You proclaim it is not scientific to make assumptions, and by your own standards (which you dutifully ignore for the sake of ego) your conclusions HAVE NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS.

Are you just circling back on yourself? I'll say it again: I never claimed that colloidal silver was ineffective. I am claiming that no one should take colloidal silver to treat/prevent/diagnose an illness because there is no evidence showing it does.

Why anyone would use a product to treat/diagnose/prevent an illness, even though there is no rigorous evidence showing its effectiveness is beyond me.

"a null hypothesis is potentially rejected or disproved on the basis of data that is significantly under its assumption, but never accepted or proved. In the hypothesis testing approach of Jerzy Neyman and Egon Pearson, a null hypothesis is contrasted with an alternative hypothesis, and these are decided between on the basis of data, with certain error rates. These two approaches criticized each other, though today a hybrid approach is widely practiced and presented in textbooks."

and if you look one sentence after that...

This hybrid is in turn criticized as incorrect and incoherent – see statistical hypothesis testing.

top lel

As far as the claim of ad hominem, it is in fact not a personal attack. Clearly this is an observation of your behavior I am noting over a period of years DIRECTLY RELATED to your activities here. If you would like to see real ad hominem attacks I would be glad to go back in your post history to find some examples for you.

that is the very definition of an ad hominem. you're referencing my post history, which has nothing to do with my arguments presented in this thread. At best that's a red herring.

Since you decided to edit your post I will reply again.
"Why anyone would use a product to treat/diagnose/prevent an illness, even though there is no rigorous evidence showing its effectiveness is beyond me."

Have you ever considered that no one needs you to make these conclusions for them? Have you ever considered that perhaps you may not know as much as you think you do, and you may in fact be inhibiting people from seeking cheap, safe and effective medical treatment? Do you ever think to yourself "Hey I spend an inordinate amount of time posting in marketplace threads acting like bored a 2bit ineffectual mall security guard."?

A few reasons why people might turn to using colloidal silver, without RCTs completed to your personal satisfaction:

1. Allergies - A lot of people are allergic to many types of antibiotics and have a very limited selection of antibiotics.

2. Antibiotic resistant bacteria - These kind of super bugs are increasingly common, and often 2nd or 3rd line antibiotics are being used ineffectively. Colloidal silver operates on a different principal of action that is very difficult for bacteria to mutate a resistance to.

3. It is safe - Regardless of your personal standards millions of people use colloidal silver regularly. If you disagree please provide me a single case of injury caused by colloidal silver which was properly prepared and used in moderation. (tip: blueman doesn't count. He admitted to drinking gallons a month in addition to using impure tap water and STERLING silver (includes toxic impurities like silver salts). Also this isn't an injury it is a cosmetic condition)

4. Viruses - Colloidal silver has been shown to be actively antiviral. There are a mere handful of antiviral drugs, and their efficacy and safety is questionable in many cases.

5. TONS of drugs that went thru endless RCTs were later shown to be unsafe, defective, or even lethal. How is that a pinnacle of scientific standards? The medical industry is increasingly showing itself to be more concerned with profits than healthcare and people are losing faith in this system and are forced to make these choices for themselves. Also I might add these RCT's that are used to approve drugs are funded by the company producing it. Conflict of interest much? Additionally who would fund the RCT for colloidal silver if it can't be owned under patent?

6. Not everyone can afford to spend hundreds of dollars to see a doctor so they can tell them what they already know every time they get a sore throat or a cold. Not everyone is insured. Not everyone can manage a day off of work or the STACK of costs associated with our medical system. The medical industry doesn't always have your best interests in mind, often all they have in mind is the bottom line.

7. Not everyone requires mommy and daddy to bureaucratically approve things that via ones own ability to learn and use critical thought can be discovered to be beneficial. Just because you haven't matured beyond the point that you require the state to make all of your choices for you does not mean the rest of us have to live under those  same conditions. Humanity has made scientific discoveries before RCTs existed, and they will continue to do so with or without them. Additionally there are REAMS of studies on colloidal silver if you ever bother to read them. You attack these people because you yourself are not free, and real freedom threatens you because you are afraid of the responsibilities that come with it. Therefore you have to reassure your ego that your belief system is correct by going on the offensive on a subject which CLEARLY has no direct effect on you as some one who is not interested in purchasing this product.

That is just a handful of reasons why some one might use colloidal silver regardless of lack of industry backing. There are a lot more but I don't have the time.

As far as your "null hypothesis" argument, you know how science works right? There are many different schools of thoughts, methods, specialties, and processes which can some times disagree with one another in theory until conclusive empirical data is produced. This means opposing theories exist until one, all, or none of them are proved to be correct.

Also do you know the definition of hypothesis?

"hy·poth·e·sis  (h-pth-ss)
n. pl. hy·poth·e·ses (-sz)
1. A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.
2. Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption.
3. The antecedent of a conditional statement."

It is basically a fancy way of saying an ASSUMPTION "model". You can't just pick any theory out of a hat and conclude it is standard industry practice applicable whenever convenient for your argument. That is not how science works, you don't just get to pick apart a tiny unrelated facet and ignore the whole. Frankly I think you have a serious lack of a scientific education. Empirical processes is pretty much day 1 stuff.

Also it is not an ad hominem attack if it is a direct cause of your bias in presentation of your "points", it is in fact directly related to the discussion on a logical level, regardless of your personal sensitivity to it.

Why do I keep wasting my time with you? I am tired of watching willfully ignorant, obsessive, arrogant, pushy people overshadow beneficial discoveries with FUD for the sole reason that the government didn't give it a stamp. For you this has nothing to do with science or medicine and everything to do with your groveling statist ideals and fearfulness. Your statements not only clearly demonstrate your lack of understanding of your own words, but your obsessive fixation with bureaucratic approval.

[Noitev]

lots of text

can the both of you stop arguing?

[grue]

Since you decided to edit your post I will reply again.
"Why anyone would use a product to treat/diagnose/prevent an illness, even though there is no rigorous evidence showing its effectiveness is beyond me."

Have you ever considered that no one needs you to make these conclusions for them? Have you ever considered that perhaps you may not know as much as you think you do, and you may in fact be inhibiting people from seeking cheap, safe and effective medical treatment? Do you ever think to yourself "Hey I spend an inordinate amount of time posting in marketplace threads acting like bored a 2bit ineffectual mall security guard."?

begging the question: that is the very thing we are disputing.

A few reasons why people might turn to using colloidal silver, without RCTs completed to your personal satisfaction:

1. Allergies - A lot of people are allergic to many types of antibiotics and have a very limited selection of antibiotics.

2. Antibiotic resistant bacteria - These kind of super bugs are increasingly common, and often 2nd or 3rd line antibiotics are being used ineffectively. Colloidal silver operates on a different principal of action that is very difficult for bacteria to mutate a resistance to.

3. It is safe - Regardless of your personal standards millions of people use colloidal silver regularly. If you disagree please provide me a single case of injury caused by colloidal silver which was properly prepared and used in moderation. (tip: blueman doesn't count. He admitted to drinking gallons a month in addition to using impure tap water and STERLING silver (includes toxic impurities like silver salts). Also this isn't an injury it is a cosmetic condition)

4. Viruses - Colloidal silver has been shown to be actively antiviral. There are a mere handful of antiviral drugs, and their efficacy and safety is questionable in many cases.

5. TONS of drugs that went thru endless RCTs were later shown to be unsafe, defective, or even lethal. How is that a pinnacle of scientific standards? The medical industry is increasingly showing itself to be more concerned with profits than healthcare and people are losing faith in this system and are forced to make these choices for themselves. Also I might add these RCT's that are used to approve drugs are funded by the company producing it. Conflict of interest much? Additionally who would fund the RCT for colloidal silver if it can't be owned under patent?

6. Not everyone can afford to spend hundreds of dollars to see a doctor so they can tell them what they already know every time they get a sore throat or a cold. Not everyone is insured. Not everyone can manage a day off of work or the STACK of costs associated with our medical system. The medical industry doesn't always have your best interests in mind, often all they have in mind is the bottom line.

7. Not everyone requires mommy and daddy to bureaucratically approve things that via ones own ability to learn and use critical thought can be discovered to be beneficial. Just because you haven't matured beyond the point that you require the state to make all of your choices for you does not mean the rest of us have to live under those  same conditions. Humanity has made scientific discoveries before RCTs existed, and they will continue to do so with or without them. Additionally there are REAMS of studies on colloidal silver if you ever bother to read them. You attack these people because you yourself are not free, and real freedom threatens you because you are afraid of the responsibilities that come with it. Therefore you have to reassure your ego that your belief system is correct by going on the offensive on a subject which CLEARLY has no direct effect on you as some one who is not interested in purchasing this product.

1. there are plenty of other antibiotics to use. bonus: they actually have rigorous evidence demonstrating their effectiveness.
2. that is not a valid concern when it comes to human use of antibiotics. antibiotic resistance is formed when there are left over bacteria from a antibiotic regiment. this usually occurs when the patient does not finish all their antibiotics, or the antibiotics are used in low dosages in a preventative manner (usually in farms).
3. homeopathy is probably safer than colloidal silver, so are you ok with that too? the problem isn't with colloidal silver's safety. the problem is people wasting time and money on treatments that have not been shown to do anything.
4. antiviral =/= cure/prevent/diagnose any known illness
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
6. ad hominem: "you can't trust conventional medicine because they have profits in mind!"
7. how exactly am I acting bureaucratically? I never once asked for FDA or any regulatory approval.

That is just a handful of reasons why some one might use colloidal silver regardless of lack of industry backing. There are a lot more but I don't have the time.

As far as your "null hypothesis" argument, you know how science works right? There are many different schools of thoughts, methods, specialties, and processes which can some times disagree with one another in theory until conclusive empirical data is produced. This means opposing theories exist until one, all, or none of them are proved to be correct.
[...]
It is basically a fancy way of saying an ASSUMPTION "model". You can't just pick any theory out of a hat and conclude it is standard industry practice applicable whenever convenient for your argument. That is not how science works, you don't just get to pick apart a tiny unrelated facet and ignore the whole. Frankly I think you have a serious lack of a scientific education. Empirical processes is pretty much day 1 stuff.

So your logic is: there isn't evidence proving that colloidal silver isn't effective, therefore it's wrong for me to question the effectiveness of colloidal silver in preventing/curing/diagnosing any known disease.

[TECSHARE]

1. there are plenty of other antibiotics to use. bonus: they actually have rigorous evidence demonstrating their effectiveness.
2. that is not a valid concern when it comes to human use of antibiotics. antibiotic resistance is formed when there are left over bacteria from a antibiotic regiment. this usually occurs when the patient does not finish all their antibiotics, or the antibiotics are used in low dosages in a preventative manner (usually in farms).
3. homeopathy is probably safer than colloidal silver, so are you ok with that too? the problem isn't with colloidal silver's safety. the problem is people wasting time and money on treatments that have not been shown to do anything.
4. antiviral =/= cure/prevent/diagnose any known illness
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
6. ad hominem: "you can't trust conventional medicine because they have profits in mind!"
7. how exactly am I acting bureaucratically? I never once asked for FDA or any regulatory approval.

1. As I said before individuals clearly do not have as many choices as you claim if they have problems with allergies. Just because they are ok for YOU doesn't mean everyone else can use them. Who are you without this issue to tell them otherwise? Seems like everyone else pays the cost having a product banned that you have no use for.

2. First of all how antibiotic resistant bacteria are created wasn't in question - it is a FACT they exist regardless of how it is created. That is not the primary mechanism creating resistant bacteria anyways. The primary mechanism is thru food produce production and overuse of antibiotics in animals which often live in unsanitary conditions basically creating a super bug breeding ground. Additionally excessive use of antibacterial soaps and scrubs, especially in hospitals creates especially resistant strains. These are both far larger problems than individuals misusing antibiotics.

3. If a consenting adult is willing to use their own hard earned money buying whatever they want I have no problem with it. It is the responsibility of the individual to make choices that effect them personally, and I reject your notion that a 3rd party is required for everyone like mommy and daddy giving you the ok rather than learning how to make choices for yourself. They make the choices and they pay the price if they are wrong (like adults do).

4. That is FDA regulation (read policy not law).

5. How is the fact that thousands of drugs pass thru FDA approval with RCTs, yet still end up killing or injuring thousands of people in addition to some times being ineffective, implausible? It is fact, there is no debating it. I think you don't really understand 90% of the Wikipedia posts you link, you just pick stuff out of a search engine, don't bother understanding it and mistake it for knowledge. (example: http://anh-europe.org/news/analysis-of-clinical-trials-reveals-that-placebo-content-is-rarely-described  IE if you are testing a diabetes drug and the placebo is a sugar pill it could clearly effect the tests and make your "drug" appear more functional than it is.)

6. I fixed that for you: "You can't trust conventional medicine because they have profits in mind FIRST!"

7. See number 4.

[grue]

1. there are plenty of other antibiotics to use. bonus: they actually have rigorous evidence demonstrating their effectiveness.
2. that is not a valid concern when it comes to human use of antibiotics. antibiotic resistance is formed when there are left over bacteria from a antibiotic regiment. this usually occurs when the patient does not finish all their antibiotics, or the antibiotics are used in low dosages in a preventative manner (usually in farms).
3. homeopathy is probably safer than colloidal silver, so are you ok with that too? the problem isn't with colloidal silver's safety. the problem is people wasting time and money on treatments that have not been shown to do anything.
4. antiviral =/= cure/prevent/diagnose any known illness
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
6. ad hominem: "you can't trust conventional medicine because they have profits in mind!"
7. how exactly am I acting bureaucratically? I never once asked for FDA or any regulatory approval.

1. As I said before individuals clearly do not have as many choices as you claim if they have problems with allergies. Just because they are ok for YOU doesn't mean everyone else can use them. Who are you without this issue to tell them otherwise? Seems like everyone else pays the cost having a product banned that you have no use for.

2. First of all how antibiotic resistant bacteria are created wasn't in question - it is a FACT they exist regardless of how it is created. That is not the primary mechanism creating resistant bacteria anyways. The primary mechanism is thru food produce production and overuse of antibiotics in animals which often live in unsanitary conditions basically creating a super bug breeding ground. Additionally excessive use of antibacterial soaps and scrubs, especially in hospitals creates especially resistant strains. These are both far larger problems than individuals misusing antibiotics.

3. If a consenting adult is willing to use their own hard earned money buying whatever they want I have no problem with it. It is the responsibility of the individual to make choices that effect them personally, and I reject your notion that a 3rd party is required for everyone like mommy and daddy giving you the ok rather than learning how to make choices for yourself. They make the choices and they pay the price if they are wrong (like adults do).

4. That is FDA regulation (read policy not law).

5. How is the fact that thousands of drugs pass thru FDA approval with RCTs, yet still end up killing or injuring thousands of people in addition to some times being ineffective, implausible? It is fact, there is no debating it. I think you don't really understand 90% of the Wikipedia posts you link, you just pick stuff out of a search engine, don't bother understanding it and mistake it for knowledge. (example: http://anh-europe.org/news/analysis-of-clinical-trials-reveals-that-placebo-content-is-rarely-described  IE if you are testing a diabetes drug and the placebo is a sugar pill it could clearly effect the tests and make your "drug" appear more functional than it is.)

6. I fixed that for you: "You can't trust conventional medicine because they have profits in mind FIRST!"

7. See number 4.

1. So instead of using another antibiotic that is proven to work, you're going to use something that hasn't been proven to work? I see nothing wrong with that logic. inb4 someone is allergic to all known antibiotics
2. that is, of course under the assumption that colloidal silver actually works
3. appeal to "muh freedums"
4. how is "cure/prevent/diagnose any known illness" related with FDA?
5. your argument is that "drugs that have undergone RCTs still harm people", therefore, RCT system is totally broken and we should never use it. RCTs are not prefect, but if you have something better, I'm all ears.
6. still ad hominem
7. see #4

also, my previous point still stands:

So your logic is: there isn't evidence proving that colloidal silver isn't effective, therefore it's wrong for me to question the effectiveness of colloidal silver in preventing/curing/diagnosing any known disease.

[Nightowlace]

Do you speak from experience? If not then please keep your "knowledge" to yourself.

Show me a link to one peer reviewed study on the efficacy of Colloidal Silver (which is not debunking it).  It's as useless as homeopathy.

Hmm, let's see how most reviews from medical doctors start:

Code:

Colloidal silver isn't considered safe or effective for any of the health claims manufacturers make. Silver has no known purpose in the body. Nor is it an essential mineral, as some sellers of silver products claim. 

Oh right medical doctors, the ones who receive kickbacks and profit sharing of the drugs they prescribe. The ones who have their prescription pad in hand prior to even seeing you.

I am NOT saying I believe this whatsoever but I damn sure am not taking the word of medical doctors. If there was a natural healing method out there that did work they would be the last to know.

[str4wm4n]

GUESS WHAT EVERYONE???

I DRANK ALMOST THE WHOLE BOTTLE AND DIDN'T DIE OR TURN BLUE!

It had a very electric taste to it and really hit the spot.

Thanks again iCEBREAKER

[TECSHARE]

1. So instead of using another antibiotic that is proven to work, you're going to use something that hasn't been proven to work? I see nothing wrong with that logic. inb4 someone is allergic to all known antibiotics
2. that is, of course under the assumption that colloidal silver actually works
3. appeal to "muh freedums"
4. how is "cure/prevent/diagnose any known illness" related with FDA?
5. your argument is that "drugs that have undergone RCTs still harm people", therefore, RCT system is totally broken and we should never use it. RCTs are not prefect, but if you have something better, I'm all ears.
6. still ad hominem
7. see #4

also, my previous point still stands:

So your logic is: there isn't evidence proving that colloidal silver isn't effective, therefore it's wrong for me to question the effectiveness of colloidal silver in preventing/curing/diagnosing any known disease.

Actually your previous point doesn't stand. You have been proven to rely upon assumptions for your arguments with ZERO scientific basis backing your claims.


1. As some one who doesn't have antibiotic allergies it is convenient for you to dismiss this since you pay no price for some one else's bad health.

2. And you of course ASSUME it doesn't without any evidence, only LACK of evidence.

3. If you like being a bootlicking slave that is your prerogative - You don't get to decide where other people's freedoms end no matter how much you would love that.

4. For about the hundredth time, try understanding the words you post... http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRsearch.cfm?fr=101.93

5. All that garbage you just spouted was your personal interpretation as an attempt at marginalization, NOT what I said. RCT's you hold so highly are proven to be flawed SCIENTIFICALLY, therefore not as completely safe and sound as you pretend it is. This is also evidence that profit motive trumps healthcare.

6. So the medical industry harming people for profit has absolutely no logical connection to the way drugs are approved and processed?  Also, the medical industry is not a person, so I am not sure how it could be a personal attack. I didn't say the medical industry smelled funny, I said its primary motivation is MONEY, not healthcare - and that point is clearly tied logically to this discussion regardless of the fact that it goes against your argument.

7. Number 4 is FDA policy - try actually understanding your own words for once before you spew them all over like self affirming vomit.

You are one of the most willfully ignorant, intellectually lazy, and arrogant people I have ever had a "discussion" with (I don't think most of it counts as discussion, you are more like a Neanderthal smacking his own reflection in a pool over and over because he is afraid of the man in the water). You understand very little of the points you copy and paste from the internet, you rely completely upon 3rd parties to form your opinions for you, then you parrot them with zero critical thought or understanding. Why waste time learning or understanding things when correctness and win is just a Google search and a Wikipedia link away?

You lack understanding of even the most basic scientific concepts. The fact that you walk around pretending to have this knowledge and giving advice to people is not only repugnant, it is scarey that someone might believe you actually know what you are talking about. My opinion is you should go back to school to learn how science really works, then if you can manage, you can come back and try to have an actual debate.

[iCEBREAKER]

GUESS WHAT EVERYONE???

I DRANK ALMOST THE WHOLE BOTTLE AND DIDN'T DIE OR TURN BLUE!

It had a very electric taste to it and really hit the spot.

Thanks again iCEBREAKER

you are very welcome str4wm4n!   I'm chuffed to hear from my first satisfied customer.

3 cheers for voluntary exchange facilitated by bitcoin!   

[grue]

1. So instead of using another antibiotic that is proven to work, you're going to use something that hasn't been proven to work? I see nothing wrong with that logic. inb4 someone is allergic to all known antibiotics
2. that is, of course under the assumption that colloidal silver actually works
3. appeal to "muh freedums"
4. how is "cure/prevent/diagnose any known illness" related with FDA?
5. your argument is that "drugs that have undergone RCTs still harm people", therefore, RCT system is totally broken and we should never use it. RCTs are not prefect, but if you have something better, I'm all ears.
6. still ad hominem
7. see #4

also, my previous point still stands:

So your logic is: there isn't evidence proving that colloidal silver isn't effective, therefore it's wrong for me to question the effectiveness of colloidal silver in preventing/curing/diagnosing any known disease.

Actually your previous point doesn't stand. You have been proven to rely upon assumptions for your arguments with ZERO scientific basis backing your claims.

So you're arguing that if there is no rigorous evidence regarding a substance's ability to diagnose/treat/prevent a disease, it should be assumed that it's effective?

1. As some one who doesn't have antibiotic allergies it is convenient for you to dismiss this since you pay no price for some one else's bad health.

2. And you of course ASSUME it doesn't without any evidence, only LACK of evidence.

3. If you like being a bootlicking slave that is your prerogative - You don't get to decide where other people's freedoms end no matter how much you would love that.

4. For about the hundredth time, try understanding the words you post... http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRsearch.cfm?fr=101.93

5. All that garbage you just spouted was your personal interpretation as an attempt at marginalization, NOT what I said. RCT's you hold so highly are proven to be flawed SCIENTIFICALLY, therefore not as completely safe and sound as you pretend it is. This is also evidence that profit motive trumps healthcare.

6. So the medical industry harming people for profit has absolutely no logical connection to the way drugs are approved and processed?  Also, the medical industry is not a person, so I am not sure how it could be a personal attack. I didn't say the medical industry smelled funny, I said its primary motivation is MONEY, not healthcare - and that point is clearly tied logically to this discussion regardless of the fact that it goes against your argument.

7. Number 4 is FDA policy - try actually understanding your own words for once before you spew them all over like self affirming vomit.

You are one of the most willfully ignorant, intellectually lazy, and arrogant people I have ever had a "discussion" with (I don't think most of it counts as discussion, you are more like a Neanderthal smacking his own reflection in a pool over and over because he is afraid of the man in the water). You understand very little of the points you copy and paste from the internet, you rely completely upon 3rd parties to form your opinions for you, then you parrot them with zero critical thought or understanding. Why waste time learning or understanding things when correctness and win is just a Google search and a Wikipedia link away?

You lack understanding of even the most basic scientific concepts. The fact that you walk around pretending to have this knowledge and giving advice to people is not only repugnant, it is scarey that someone might believe you actually know what you are talking about. My opinion is you should go back to school to learn how science really works, then if you can manage, you can come back and try to have an actual debate.

Your logic boils down to: There is weak evidence supporting colloidal silver's effectiveness in curing/preventing a disease. Since there isn't evidence against this, we should use colloidal silver to treat/prevent disease.  Am I correct?

Also,
#1: begging the question (already explained)
#4: Oh, just because FDA used that phrase suddenly means that I'm some sort of regulator? I chose that phrase because it accurately describes my argument. How about I drop the "diagnose" part because no one is claiming colloidal silver can detect a disease. Would that make you happy?

Oh right medical doctors, the ones who receive kickbacks and profit sharing of the drugs they prescribe. The ones who have their prescription pad in hand prior to even seeing you.

I am NOT saying I believe this whatsoever but I damn sure am not taking the word of medical doctors. If there was a natural healing method out there that did work they would be the last to know.

ad hominem.

[Nightowlace]

http://www.oprah.com/health/The-Man-Who-Turned-Blue_1/2

[TECSHARE]

http://www.oprah.com/health/The-Man-Who-Turned-Blue_1/2

This is the one and only argument that opponents of colloidal silver have. He drank a glass a day of improperly prepared "colloidal silver" (actually contained silver salts because he used tap water and sterling silver). A glass a day is hardly use in moderation, even if it was true colloidal silver.

[Noitev]

1. So instead of using another antibiotic that is proven to work, you're going to use something that hasn't been proven to work? I see nothing wrong with that logic. inb4 someone is allergic to all known antibiotics
2. that is, of course under the assumption that colloidal silver actually works
3. appeal to "muh freedums"
4. how is "cure/prevent/diagnose any known illness" related with FDA?
5. your argument is that "drugs that have undergone RCTs still harm people", therefore, RCT system is totally broken and we should never use it. RCTs are not prefect, but if you have something better, I'm all ears.
6. still ad hominem
7. see #4

also, my previous point still stands:

So your logic is: there isn't evidence proving that colloidal silver isn't effective, therefore it's wrong for me to question the effectiveness of colloidal silver in preventing/curing/diagnosing any known disease.

Actually your previous point doesn't stand. You have been proven to rely upon assumptions for your arguments with ZERO scientific basis backing your claims.


1. As some one who doesn't have antibiotic allergies it is convenient for you to dismiss this since you pay no price for some one else's bad health.

2. And you of course ASSUME it doesn't without any evidence, only LACK of evidence.

3. If you like being a bootlicking slave that is your prerogative - You don't get to decide where other people's freedoms end no matter how much you would love that.

4. For about the hundredth time, try understanding the words you post... http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRsearch.cfm?fr=101.93

5. All that garbage you just spouted was your personal interpretation as an attempt at marginalization, NOT what I said. RCT's you hold so highly are proven to be flawed SCIENTIFICALLY, therefore not as completely safe and sound as you pretend it is. This is also evidence that profit motive trumps healthcare.

6. So the medical industry harming people for profit has absolutely no logical connection to the way drugs are approved and processed?  Also, the medical industry is not a person, so I am not sure how it could be a personal attack. I didn't say the medical industry smelled funny, I said its primary motivation is MONEY, not healthcare - and that point is clearly tied logically to this discussion regardless of the fact that it goes against your argument.

7. Number 4 is FDA policy - try actually understanding your own words for once before you spew them all over like self affirming vomit.

You are one of the most willfully ignorant, intellectually lazy, and arrogant people I have ever had a "discussion" with (I don't think most of it counts as discussion, you are more like a Neanderthal smacking his own reflection in a pool over and over because he is afraid of the man in the water). You understand very little of the points you copy and paste from the internet, you rely completely upon 3rd parties to form your opinions for you, then you parrot them with zero critical thought or understanding. Why waste time learning or understanding things when correctness and win is just a Google search and a Wikipedia link away?

You lack understanding of even the most basic scientific concepts. The fact that you walk around pretending to have this knowledge and giving advice to people is not only repugnant, it is scarey that someone might believe you actually know what you are talking about. My opinion is you should go back to school to learn how science really works, then if you can manage, you can come back and try to have an actual debate.

When did the world lose its innocence for you?

[grue]

http://www.oprah.com/health/The-Man-Who-Turned-Blue_1/2

This is the one and only argument that opponents of colloidal silver have. He drank a glass a day of improperly prepared "colloidal silver" (actually contained silver salts because he used tap water and sterling silver). A glass a day is hardly use in moderation, even if it was true colloidal silver.

how hard are you strawmaning? You have yet replied to my points.

[str4wm4n]

I'm strawmaning pretty hard

[Noitev]

I'm strawmaning pretty hard

lel

[TECSHARE]

http://www.oprah.com/health/The-Man-Who-Turned-Blue_1/2

This is the one and only argument that opponents of colloidal silver have. He drank a glass a day of improperly prepared "colloidal silver" (actually contained silver salts because he used tap water and sterling silver). A glass a day is hardly use in moderation, even if it was true colloidal silver.

how hard are you strawmaning? You have yet replied to my points.

You claim I say people should use colloidal silver because there are no RCTs, rather my point has always been you are exactly as ignorant as you claim I am for making a conclusion without RCTs. Who is using a strawman? Also please stop using these fallacy arguments until you learn the definitions of them. Your lack of understanding of what they mean is blaring and getting pretty annoying. By the way the fact that he wasn't actually using colloidal silver, but silver salts is not a straw man. I didn't reply because your posts are the same refractory drivel as before.

[grue]

You claim I say people should use colloidal silver because there are no RCTs, rather my point has always been you are exactly as ignorant as you claim I am for making a conclusion without RCTs. Who is using a strawman? Also please stop using these fallacy arguments until you learn the definitions of them. Your lack of understanding of what they mean is blaring and getting pretty annoying. By the way the fact that he wasn't actually using colloidal silver, but silver salts is not a straw man. I didn't reply because your posts are the same refractory drivel as before.

I can say the same for you. Blah blah blah big phrama... ramble ramble RCTs.

[iCEBREAKER]

You claim I say people should use colloidal silver because there are no RCTs, rather my point has always been you are exactly as ignorant as you claim I am for making a conclusion without RCTs. Who is using a strawman? Also please stop using these fallacy arguments until you learn the definitions of them. Your lack of understanding of what they mean is blaring and getting pretty annoying. By the way the fact that he wasn't actually using colloidal silver, but silver salts is not a straw man. I didn't reply because your posts are the same refractory drivel as before.

I can say the same for you. Blah blah blah big phrama... ramble ramble RCTs.

You may "say the same for" TECSHARE, but the difference is that he has facts and logic on his side, whereas you have neither.

Do you possess the rudimentary background in biology and basic analytical skills necessary to process this latest demonstration of silver's efficacy?

Silver makes antibiotics thousands of times more effective - http://www.nature.com/news/silver-makes-antibiotics-thousands-of-times-more-effective-1.13232

Collins and his team found that silver — in the form of dissolved ions — attacks bacterial cells in two main ways: it makes the cell membrane more permeable, and it interferes with the cell’s metabolism, leading to the overproduction of reactive, and often toxic, oxygen compounds. Both mechanisms could potentially be harnessed to make today’s antibiotics more effective against resistant bacteria, Collins says.

Many antibiotics are thought to kill their targets by producing reactive oxygen compounds, and Collins and his team showed that when boosted with a small amount of silver these drugs could kill between 10 and 1,000 times as many bacteria. The increased membrane permeability also allows more antibiotics to enter the bacterial cells, which may overwhelm the resistance mechanisms that rely on shuttling the drug back out.

That disruption to the cell membrane also increased the effectiveness of vancomycin, a large-molecule antibiotic, on Gram-negative bacteria — which have a protective outer coating. Gram-negative bacterial cells can often be impenetrable to antibiotics made of larger molecules.

“It’s not so much a silver bullet; more a silver spoon to help the Gram-negative bacteria take their medicine,” says Collins.

Silver Enhances Antibiotic Activity Against Gram-Negative Bacteria
Science Translational Medicine June 2013:Vol. 5, Issue 190
http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/5/190/190ra81

A declining pipeline of clinically useful antibiotics has made it imperative to develop more effective antimicrobial therapies, particularly against difficult-to-treat Gram-negative pathogens. Silver has been used as an antimicrobial since antiquity, yet its mechanism of action remains unclear. We show that silver disrupts multiple bacterial cellular processes, including disulfide bond formation, metabolism, and iron homeostasis. These changes lead to increased production of reactive oxygen species and increased membrane permeability of Gram-negative bacteria that can potentiate the activity of a broad range of antibiotics against Gram-negative bacteria in different metabolic states, as well as restore antibiotic susceptibility to a resistant bacterial strain.

We show both in vitro and in a mouse model of urinary tract infection that the ability of silver to induce oxidative stress can be harnessed to potentiate antibiotic activity. Additionally, we demonstrate in vitro and in two different mouse models of peritonitis that silver sensitizes Gram-negative bacteria to the Gram-positive–specific antibiotic vancomycin, thereby expanding the antibacterial spectrum of this drug. Finally, we used silver and antibiotic combinations in vitro to eradicate bacterial persister cells, and show both in vitro and in a mouse biofilm infection model that silver can enhance antibacterial action against bacteria that produce biofilms. This work shows that silver can be used to enhance the action of existing antibiotics against Gram-negative bacteria, thus strengthening the antibiotic arsenal for fighting bacterial infections.

FYI, a UTI is an internal application.  In case you don't know where the urinary tract is located, and still feel like clinging to the "external use only" fallacy. 

Thanks again for your interest in Sacred Silver, the only colloidal silver product produced exclusively for the Bitcoin community.  Proving your objections have no basis in reality is important to us, and we look forward to further demonstrating/crushing/curing your embarrassing ignorance in the future.

[cointoss]

Doh... Someone already beat me to Papa Smurf...