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Author Topic: A German comedian could be sent to jail for insulting the Turkish president  (Read 7352 times)
Wilikon
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April 08, 2016, 02:36:31 PM
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April 08, 2016, 02:43:18 PM
 #22

freedom of speech is not really limited in Germany.
As long as
You don't
It is for example illegal to:
Do this
All of these (and some other exceptions I might have forgotten) may result in prosecution
As seen above, more or less the same limits to freedom of speech apply in the US.
With the exceptions of Nazi stuff and propagation of violence, as far as I know.

I personally would be more afraid of voicing my opinion in the US than in Germany, simply because the amounts you may be sued for may be ridiculously huge over there, whereas you usually only risk a couple hundred bucks here. Wink
There's just no way someone could sue me for a couple million bucks in good old Germany Smiley

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April 08, 2016, 03:05:54 PM
 #23

Some countries have really unbeliveable laws. What about a freedom of speech? At the end he's an artist
yeah, I think three-year jail term is too long for insulting a president. why don't give a little ease? maybe punish them with months jail term, not years.

so just be careful with your tongue. it can be sharper than a sword in case of breaking someone's heart.

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April 08, 2016, 03:14:15 PM
 #24

freedom of speech is not really limited in Germany.
As long as
You don't
It is for example illegal to:
Do this
All of these (and some other exceptions I might have forgotten) may result in prosecution
As seen above, more or less the same limits to freedom of speech apply in the US.
With the exceptions of Nazi stuff and propagation of violence, as far as I know.

I personally would be more afraid of voicing my opinion in the US than in Germany, simply because the amounts you may be sued for may be ridiculously huge over there, whereas you usually only risk a couple hundred bucks here. Wink
There's just no way someone could sue me for a couple million bucks in good old Germany Smiley


I really thought Germany was better than that. I was really surprised to learn german laws was protecting all the dictators and killers in the world.
You did not chose to be born in germany so you are not responsible for this situation.


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April 08, 2016, 03:39:14 PM
 #25

Some countries have really unbeliveable laws. What about a freedom of speech? At the end he's an artist
yeah, I think three-year jail term is too long for insulting a president. why don't give a little ease? maybe punish them with months jail term, not years.
First of all, he will almost certainly not go to jail, not even for a single day.
Laws state a maximum term, and that's it. Even if he would be found guilty, which is highly unlikely, he would certainly get a measly three months or so, on parole. No jail at all. That's just the way German law works.
Why do you think a comedian, with a professional editorial staff behind him, working for one of the largest media "company"s in Germany, did precisely what he did? Simply because he knows what will happen to him: exactly nothing at all.

By the way, unlike in other jurisdictions, German jail terms are not usually cumulative. So, you don't face three years for the libel plus another 5 years for slander, but rather just one of the two. Kind of a "jail term discount" Grin

Now don't get me wrong here. There are some very good reasons to be upset about the whole cause of this affair. But if people from e.g. the US believe it's about a limit to freedom of speech, it's simply because they don't understand at all what the comedy is all about.

As I said before, his humor's lost on you. Cheesy


I was really surprised to learn german laws was protecting all the dictators and killers in the world.
No German law protects any dictator or killer more than any other person.
But, of course, as in the US and practically all "civilized" countries in the world, the law makes no distinction between the people concerned. All men are equal.

BTW, a dictator who is prosecuted by the International Criminal Court would be delivered to Den Haag by Germany.
Fun fact: not by e.g. the USA. But I guess that's just a matter of time.


To sum it up again: the topic you've started is a misunderstanding of the comedian's case.
You simply don't understand his humor and how funny (or not, depending upon taste) it is.
And it's almost impossible to explain it when you're not used to German law Wink

Yeah, well... I'm gonna go build my own blockchain, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the blockchain!
Wilikon
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April 08, 2016, 03:47:46 PM
 #26

Some countries have really unbeliveable laws. What about a freedom of speech? At the end he's an artist
yeah, I think three-year jail term is too long for insulting a president. why don't give a little ease? maybe punish them with months jail term, not years.
First of all, he will almost certainly not go to jail, not even for a single day.
Laws state a maximum term, and that's it. Even if he would be found guilty, which is highly unlikely, he would certainly get a measly three months or so, on parole. No jail at all. That's just the way German law works.
Why do you think a comedian, with a professional editorial staff behind him, working for one of the largest media "company"s in Germany, did precisely what he did? Simply because he knows what will happen to him: exactly nothing at all.

By the way, unlike in other jurisdictions, German jail terms are not usually cumulative. So, you don't face three years for the libel plus another 5 years for slander, but rather just one of the two. Kind of a "jail term discount" Grin

Now don't get me wrong here. There are some very good reasons to be upset about the whole cause of this affair. But if people from e.g. the US believe it's about a limit to freedom of speech, it's simply because they don't understand at all what the comedy is all about.

As I said before, his humor's lost on you. Cheesy


I was really surprised to learn german laws was protecting all the dictators and killers in the world.
No German law protects any dictator or killer more than any other person.
But, of course, as in the US and practically all "civilized" countries in the world, the law makes no distinction between the people concerned. All men are equal.

BTW, a dictator who is prosecuted by the International Criminal Court would be delivered to Den Haag by Germany.
Fun fact: not by e.g. the USA. But I guess that's just a matter of time.


To sum it up again: the topic you've started is a misunderstanding of the comedian's case.
You simply don't understand his humor and how funny (or not, depending upon taste) it is.
And it's almost impossible to explain it when you're not used to German law Wink



Even if he would be found guilty, which is highly unlikely, he would certainly get a measly three months or so

That is funny. I am getting that german humor now. It wasn't obvious the joke was on him, the comedian, but now yeah. I get it!

 Cheesy Grin Cheesy


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April 08, 2016, 03:55:25 PM
 #27

Quote
What do you think slander and libel are if not laws setting limits to freedom of speech?

Inciting assault, battery or potentially murder depending on how people react because they're ruining somebodies reputation and potentially getting them killed by morons who think they can go around murdering people with impunity, that and there's the financial cost as well because he won't get future employment. Just accusing somebody of rape or sexual assault nowadays is enough to ruin their life and get people to attack them so people who do this without providing any evidence are knowingly putting these people at risk and they affect their livelihoods by causing customers to either stop communicating with them or employers to fire them.

Now if it's for instance, just making fun of them, that does absolutely nothing, you can just turn off whatever media they're using and not watch it or listen or read etc. like the rest of us do, so no, it's not limiting free speech at all, because the person involved is being charged after something has happened rather than just for merely spreading a lie.

If for instance, somebody spread the lie and it did absolutely nothing and people didn't act on it, then there would be no reason to press any charges, slander and libel laws operate on peoples' actions rather than on what they say, at least that's how it's supposed to work.
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April 08, 2016, 04:04:01 PM
 #28

Even if he would be found guilty, which is highly unlikely, he would certainly get a measly three months or so, on parole. No jail at all.
That is funny. I am getting that german humor now. It wasn't obvious the joke was on him, the comedian, but now yeah. I get it!
No, sorry, you still don't get it. The joke is about the interpretation of several laws which are concerned, which is why the comedian made fun of it.
It's really sad that you don't understand it. It is funny. No doubt about it. Many Germans have a good laugh about the whole story Grin

Explaining jokes usually ruins them, and this one is a really complicated joke which even a lot of Germans don't understand. Sorry again for being unable to convey the humor.

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April 08, 2016, 04:10:16 PM
 #29

Quote
What do you think slander and libel are if not laws setting limits to freedom of speech?
If for instance, somebody spread the lie and it did absolutely nothing and people didn't act on it, then there would be no reason to press any charges, slander and libel laws operate on peoples' actions rather than on what they say, at least that's how it's supposed to work.
Oh, then there's a difference over here. So, you're basically saying, in the US I can call you a rapist and as long as nobody actually harms you for it, you have to accept that?
Well, in Germany it's a little different, if I called you a rapist and it can be assumed that that will hurt your reputation, I will probably have to pay a little fine and maybe compensate you for any damage it may have caused. I thought it'd be exactly the same in the US, only probably including a million-dollar lawsuit instead of the measly few bucks we usually get as compensation over here Wink

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April 08, 2016, 07:27:56 PM
 #30

What a load of shit, this shouldn't even be an issue for fucks sake, especially in a supposedly democratic country, Germany should grow some balls and tell Turkey to fuck off, but I guess Europe likes the middle eastern oil too much that it will consider sacrificing one of it's own citizens to the madman that leads that country.

exactly, perfectly agreed.. recep tayyip erdogan is so lunatic and i cant understand why germany - a democratic western county- is playing into the hands of recep tayyip.. there is freedom of speech in germany so everyone can explain one's idea on every  subject for sure...

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April 08, 2016, 07:37:33 PM
 #31

Freedom of speech issue doesn't give anybody to insult others. This is not freedom, this is  crime in every law.
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April 08, 2016, 08:25:13 PM
 #32

If you make a google search you will find that angela mertel is a jew. Also you will find that davuloglu is a crypto-jew. Thats why they have perfect relationships. Freemasonry and Zionists are rulling Europe.
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April 08, 2016, 08:26:09 PM
 #33

Even if he would be found guilty, which is highly unlikely, he would certainly get a measly three months or so, on parole. No jail at all.
That is funny. I am getting that german humor now. It wasn't obvious the joke was on him, the comedian, but now yeah. I get it!
No, sorry, you still don't get it. The joke is about the interpretation of several laws which are concerned, which is why the comedian made fun of it.
It's really sad that you don't understand it. It is funny. No doubt about it. Many Germans have a good laugh about the whole story Grin

Explaining jokes usually ruins them, and this one is a really complicated joke which even a lot of Germans don't understand. Sorry again for being unable to convey the humor.
Coming from the UK..Can German's be funny Cheesy..So give him life for telling a bad joke..
In fact give every German life for telling a joke Grin
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April 08, 2016, 08:34:56 PM
 #34

Quote
Oh, then there's a difference over here. So, you're basically saying, in the US I can call you a rapist and as long as nobody actually harms you for it, you have to accept that?

Well if we're going to talk law wise it varies from country to country, here in the UK for example I think there are specific laws about mocking public figures, but I need to go and research it carefully, this is what I think slander should be about though, the thing is, people are responsible for their own actions, they can't just blame it on hearsay and so on. So yes, if somebody kept on trying to call you a rapist and nobody does anything then yes, because those are just words, sure they can be a pain but no one is forcing you to read the stuff they're putting out and so on. Now if of course they were trying to stalk you and harass you with this and constantly follow you around that would fall within privacy laws.

My view on this is that it's all fairly self-correcting, because there are almost always stupid people who will think "Oh! This guy keeps making these claims about some other person without any proof, so therefore It's okay for me to beat him up!" so that guy is going to end up in jail if he tries anything and then you have a legitimate case on your hands to go after the guy who's spreading bullshit about you.

This is exactly what due process is for.
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April 09, 2016, 03:05:35 AM
 #35

The Turkish president has insulted himself more than any German could think of doing.

People "flee" to America, Canada, the U.K., Australia and New Zealand more than any other country when they can, because these countries are Common Law countries. A map of the various legal systems of the world is shown here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_the_Legal_systems_of_the_world_%28en%29.png.

What is the benefit of a common law country? Wikipedia says, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law:
Quote
Common law (also known as case law or precedent) is law developed by judges, courts, and similar tribunals, stated in decisions that nominally decide individual cases but that in addition have precedential effect on future cases.
The interesting thing about common law that Wikipedia doesn't spell out clearly is, in all the common law countries the judges are not necessarily the formal magistrates that oversee a trial. Often the judges are the 12-person jury, even though they are seldomly called this.

Court cases in common law lands can be "moved" by any defendant with knowledge and understanding, into a position where the formal judge (magistrate) has no authority except to referee the trial proceedings. The defendant can make the actual written law to rule, or he can let a jury make a decision, and, if he wishes, he can let the magistrate be the actual judge.

Germany is a civil law country. See Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_%28legal_system%29. Essentially, a civil law country is a country where the written law dictates what the outcome of a trial may be. Because of this, virtual any person in a civil law country is truly guilt until proven innocent.

The courts in a common law country are gradually moving towards a subtle form of civil law. This is because the people are less and less aware of the fact that the defendant can require that the plaintiff get on the stand and speak into the record his complaint or claim. In addition, if it is required by the defendant, the plaintiff must show and prove real harm or damage to himself or his property by the defendant before there can be any semblance of judgement against the defendant. This is why you are said to be innocent until proven guilty in a common law land.

In the case of the German comedian if he were in a common law land, the plaintiff would never appear and get on the stand, and if he did, there would be no real damage or harm that he could show that was clearly attributed to the defendant. But Germany, being civil law, can judge based on whatever it wants, whatever is written in the statutes.

Get yourself to a common law country. Learn how to move the court to remain in common law without the magistrate being the judge. This way you can be free until the plaintiff gets on the stand showing clear harm or damage you did to him, shown by witness and evidence as well as plaintiff speaking it into the record.

Btw, in common law, if the plaintiff loses, you the defendant can require payment in amounts that he was trying to collect from you for whatever damages he was claiming that you did.

Cool
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April 09, 2016, 08:48:46 AM
 #36

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April 09, 2016, 09:04:12 AM
 #37

Nobody has any right to insult one country's president. This is not fun or speech freedom. He should be punished. If everybody would able to insult any president how we can build respect between countries?
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April 09, 2016, 09:10:27 AM
 #38

I heard on the radio that Erdogan is a target now of the Russian Secret Services. This means that sooner or later they will kill him.
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April 09, 2016, 09:42:51 AM
 #39

Hello, I'm a German Wink

It is for example illegal to:
- propagate violence against minorities, e.g. "Kill all muslims!"
Why limit propagation of violence only against minorities? So it is okay to say "kill all Germans" and "kill all muslims" will be okay when they have reached 50% of Germany (give it 15 years at current inflow)?

Just to set a few things right and into perspective:
freedom of speech is not really limited in Germany.
As long as


You don't
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It is for example illegal to:

Do this
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All of these (and some other exceptions I might have forgotten) may result in prosecution


Have a nice day and welcome to Germany



Nice summary.
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April 09, 2016, 11:02:02 AM
 #40

Essentially, a civil law country is a country where the written law dictates what the outcome of a trial may be. Because of this, virtual any person in a civil law country is truly guilt until proven innocent.
This is probably the worst misunderstanding of civil law I've ever seen in my whole life.
The exact opposite is true. Under civil law, so-called "rule of law" dictates that you are 100% not guilty unless finally proven to be guilty. You may usually not even be called guilty in public unless you are finally convicted. Everything else would be slander.
Also, under civil law, whatever is not explicitly forbidden, is allowed and can not be be forbidden in retrospect. There is no means of making a law applicable to the past. Very unlike in common law, btw.

There are pros and cons for both law systems, but when it comes to safety for a person from unexpected prosecution, civil law is without doubt "safer".


It is for example illegal to:
- propagate violence against minorities, e.g. "Kill all muslims!"
Why limit propagation of violence only against minorities? So it is okay to say "kill all Germans" and "kill all muslims" will be okay when they have reached 50% of Germany (give it 15 years at current inflow)?
Maybe the term "minorities" was wrong. It's usually used in "favor of" minorities. But of course, propagation of violence against majorities is equally forbidden Wink

Yeah, well... I'm gonna go build my own blockchain, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the blockchain!
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