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Author Topic: A German comedian could be sent to jail for insulting the Turkish president  (Read 7350 times)
eyeknock
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April 09, 2016, 11:09:18 AM
 #41

So we are becoming humorless machines while we try to make machines more like humans?

is not a good metaphore with a touch of humor about whats happend here? Wink


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haha i also love your avatar my friend, ahhh old memories....

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April 09, 2016, 11:26:17 AM
 #42

Essentially, a civil law country is a country where the written law dictates what the outcome of a trial may be. Because of this, virtual any person in a civil law country is truly guilt until proven innocent.
This is probably the worst misunderstanding of civil law I've ever seen in my whole life.
The exact opposite is true. Under civil law, so-called "rule of law" dictates that you are 100% not guilty unless finally proven to be guilty. You may usually not even be called guilty in public unless you are finally convicted. Everything else would be slander.
Also, under civil law, whatever is not explicitly forbidden, is allowed and can not be be forbidden in retrospect. There is no means of making a law applicable to the past. Very unlike in common law, btw.

There are pros and cons for both law systems, but when it comes to safety for a person from unexpected prosecution, civil law is without doubt "safer".


You have a severe misunderstanding of the differences of civil law and common law. What BADecker said was essentially correct. Most of what you probably think of as "common law" you are confusing with criminal law, which is most often composed of codes, which places it strictly under the venue of civil law. There is an active campaign in every common law country to confuse the two, because if people knew how to use common law, they would be able to free themselves from ANY violation of legislative code that did not directly harm another human being that is willing to testify to this effect.

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April 09, 2016, 11:37:07 AM
 #43

It´s understandable that you could get in trouble for claiming publicly that Obama is a convicted child molester, that´s libel. But If a comedian calls him or Erdogan an asshole or a goat fucker, that´s obviously tongue in cheek, poetic licence if you will. It´s an insult but these are public persons they have as such a certain target or a hunting licence on them so to speak.
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April 09, 2016, 01:06:28 PM
 #44

Essentially, a civil law country is a country where the written law dictates what the outcome of a trial may be. Because of this, virtual any person in a civil law country is truly guilt until proven innocent.
[...]
What BADecker said was essentially correct.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree. The bolded part could not be further from the truth.
It is untrue for both common and civil law, but slightly "more so" for civil law*.
Maybe there's a misunderstanding here because you don't refer to common law vs. civil law in the meaning of legal systems, but rather as the branch of law concerning legal disputes between civilians.

The bolded statement above, "a person is guilty until proven innocent", is definitely untrue in both legal systems. The reason is simply that not the legal system is responsible for this, but the legal principle of Rule of Law, which lies at the heart of both systems.



* the "slightly more so" results from the general observation that under common law, rule of law is harder to enforce. Which is only a slight statistical obversation, not a basic principle.

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April 09, 2016, 01:13:37 PM
 #45

Nobody has any right to insult one country's president. This is not fun or speech freedom. He should be punished. If everybody would able to insult any president how we can build respect between countries?

Why should we respect such a moron who's so easily provoked by somebody in another country, can you imagine how he'd react if somebody nearby that he could bomb went and insulted him? Fuck off and don't defend these types of morons. You sound like those people who think if you try to insult Mohammed you deserve what's coming to you, fucker.

If Sun Tzu is anything to go by, it is the sign of an incompetent leader if they are too easily provoked by the enemy.
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April 09, 2016, 03:53:09 PM
 #46

Willkommen in polictics&society qwk ^^

Leider diese woche viel zu tun um hier zu posten, aber ist schon ziemlich interessant was leute allgemein für vorstellung von der welt und deutschland haben haha.

Entweder die leute versuchen mit absicht lügen zu verbreiten oder sind so bescheuert, dass sie auf dem dümmsten müll reinfallen.

Nichts desto trotz - viel glück im kampf gegen die endlosen windmühlen  Grin

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April 09, 2016, 05:23:34 PM
 #47

Willkommen in polictics&society qwk ^^

Leider diese woche viel zu tun um hier zu posten, aber ist schon ziemlich interessant was leute allgemein für vorstellung von der welt und deutschland haben haha.

Entweder die leute versuchen mit absicht lügen zu verbreiten oder sind so bescheuert, dass sie auf dem dümmsten müll reinfallen.

Nichts desto trotz - viel glück im kampf gegen die endlosen windmühlen  Grin

Google Translate:

Unfortunately, this week much to do to post here, but is pretty interesting what people generally for perception of the world and Germany have haha.

Either the people are trying on purpose to spread lies or are so stupid that they fall for the stupid garbage.

Nevertheless - good luck in the fight against the endless windmills


 Smiley

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April 09, 2016, 09:17:50 PM
 #48

It is for example illegal to:
- propagate violence against minorities, e.g. "Kill all muslims!"
Why limit propagation of violence only against minorities? So it is okay to say "kill all Germans" and "kill all muslims" will be okay when they have reached 50% of Germany (give it 15 years at current inflow)?
Maybe the term "minorities" was wrong. It's usually used in "favor of" minorities. But of course, propagation of violence against majorities is equally forbidden Wink
German laws that restrict "free speech":
Anstiftung (§26 Strafgesetzbuch)
Volksverhetzung (§130 Strafgesetzbuch)
Beleidigung (§185 Strafgesetzbuch)
Üble Nachrede (§186 Strafgesetzbuch)
Verleumdung (§187 Strafgesetzbuch)

These laws exist because of the very first sentence in the german constitution:
Quote
Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar. Sie zu achten und zu schützen ist Verpflichtung aller staatlichen Gewalt.
Google translate:
Human dignity is inviolable. To respect and protect it is the duty of all state authority.

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April 10, 2016, 01:53:18 PM
 #49

Real Time with Bill Maher: New Rule – Learn How to Take a Joke (HBO)

Published on Jun 19, 2015
Subscribe to the Real Time YouTube: http://itsh.bo/10r5A1B

In his editorial New Rule, Bill Maher expresses concern about a new brand of politically correct censorship that is threatening to silence comedy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNJyDyCocGQ&nohtml5=False

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April 15, 2016, 12:29:00 PM
 #50

Nobody has any right to insult one country's president. This is not fun or speech freedom. He should be punished. If everybody would able to insult any president how we can build respect between countries?

Why should we respect such a moron who's so easily provoked by somebody in another country, can you imagine how he'd react if somebody nearby that he could bomb went and insulted him? Fuck off and don't defend these types of morons. You sound like those people who think if you try to insult Mohammed you deserve what's coming to you, fucker.

No use in arguing with these pro-Erdogan types, as most of them are low IQ people who are not capable of understanding the implications of dictatorial policies. Criticism of Putin is OK, but satire on Erdogan is a definite no-no. No wonder they are electing a complete moonbat such as Erdogan as their president year after year.

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April 15, 2016, 02:11:53 PM
 #51





http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36055488



Merkel is so funny! Sooo funny!

 Cheesy Grin Cheesy


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April 15, 2016, 02:13:24 PM
 #52

Bomb that POS country back into the stone age.  Hang that criminal merkal while we are at it too.  She should be hung for all to see.
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April 15, 2016, 02:16:31 PM
 #53

Bomb that POS country back into the stone age.  Hang that criminal merkal while we are at it too.  She should be hung for all to see.

Merkel should be executed by the firing squad for high treason and destroying the European civilization. And I favor bombing Turkey back to stone age (if it is not in the stone age right now). All the territory stolen from the Armenians (Kars, Van.etc), Greeks (Constantinople, Smyrna.etc), Syrians (Hatay), Kurds (south-east Anatolia), and the Assyrians should be given back to these people.

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April 16, 2016, 03:19:32 PM
 #54

Hello, I'm a German Wink

Just to set a few things right and into perspective:
freedom of speech is not really limited in Germany.
As long as you voice your opinions, there are just a few minor things you may not say, and even if you do, you usually face a minor fine like a couple hundred bucks.

It is for example illegal to:
- deny the Holocaust + some other "Nazi" stuff
- propagate violence against minorities, e.g. "Kill all muslims!"
- insult people directly and in a demeaning way, e.g. "Peter is an asshole"
- publicly claim as a fact which is not, e.g. "Barack Obama is a convicted child molester"

All of these (and some other exceptions I might have forgotten) may result in prosecution, usually not by a state attorney (only in cases one and two), but by the person you insulted.
If this person is a public figure, it is even asserted that they have to bear a higher level of insult and false statements against them. While I personally could sue someone for calling me an asshole, our chancellor probably could not.

Now, in the case of Erdogan and the comedian, the comedian specifically tailored the words of his poem in a way that is definitely, and without any doubt whatsoever, illegal. Which is precisely what he wanted. He even called his own poem a "Schmähkritik" which is the precise legal definition of where you cross the border of legal to illegal.

If you now believe that the prosecution of this comedian is something against the comedian, you simply don't understand the comedian himself, and his humor is lost on you, sorry, guys. Wink

TLDR; crossing the border to illegality was precisely what the comedian wanted, and what's so funny about it. In no way is freedom of speech in any danger by it.




Hello, I am not German  Wink

Can you tell us what this article is about?
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article154423058/Boehmermann-kuendigt-Fernsehpause-an.html

TLDR; Is this article describing precisely what the comedian wanted, and what's so funny about it? In no way is freedom of speech in any danger by it?


I welcome the perspective of a real German will a real sense of German humor, both things I obviously lack...

Thank you.




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April 16, 2016, 05:31:52 PM
 #55

Böhmermann works for the zdf ( lying .gov press) so this might just be some type of conspiracy or hoax!

On a serious node qwk explained it already that the comedian knew the consequences of his poem ( they explained it beforehand) and in the worst case it will end in a fine.

There are laws for insulting/defamation/libel and additional laws for special cases of the same against presidents of other nations.

Everything what is happening right now is exactly the way it should happen in a state under the rule of law.
You feel insulted you take the person to court and the courts decide.

Btw. Germany will remove the special laws regarding "Beleidigung von Staatsoberhäuptern" because it is just a relict of past times ( deutsches Kaiserreich or weimarer republik?) and not needed anymore.

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April 16, 2016, 07:30:45 PM
 #56

Böhmermann works for the zdf ( lying .gov press) so this might just be some type of conspiracy or hoax!

On a serious node qwk explained it already that the comedian knew the consequences of his poem ( they explained it beforehand) and in the worst case it will end in a fine.

There are laws for insulting/defamation/libel and additional laws for special cases of the same against presidents of other nations.

Everything what is happening right now is exactly the way it should happen in a state under the rule of law.
You feel insulted you take the person to court and the courts decide.

Btw. Germany will remove the special laws regarding "Beleidigung von Staatsoberhäuptern" because it is just a relict of past times ( deutsches Kaiserreich or weimarer republik?) and not needed anymore.



OK. This is normal in Germany to be fired for your job because you are a comedian. Good to know.


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April 16, 2016, 08:14:32 PM
 #57




Merkel criticized, lauded for allowing comic's prosecution



 BERLIN (AP) -- Chancellor Angela Merkel's decision to allow the possible prosecution of a TV comic for writing an intentionally offensive poem about Turkey's president prompted mixed reactions in Germany on Saturday.

Some commentators praised the move as a vote of confidence in the country's justice system while others accused Merkel of kowtowing to Turkey, whose president had filed a legal complaint against the comic.

In the unusual move, Merkel called a short-notice news conference Friday to personally announce that her government had granted Turkey's request to let prosecutors examine a criminal complaint against the comic for writing an intentionally offensive poem about Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Under German law, the government has to grant permission before prosecutors can consider whether to press charges against someone for the crime of insulting a foreign head of state.

"It's not clear what reasons weighed so heavily that she had to take this legally, politically and morally unnecessary as well as disastrous step," wrote Torsten Krauel, chief opinion writer of the center-right German daily Die Welt.

Krauel described Merkel's decision as bow to Erdogan, whose help the chancellor depends on for her plan to reduce the influx of migrants to Europe. Any conviction of comedian Jan Boehmermann would now "carry her political signature," he said, noting that previously Merkel had been known as a strong defender of free speech and for shrugging off public attacks against her in foreign media.

Others praised Merkel's move, arguing that it would highlight the independence of Germany's judicial system.

"Unlike in Russia or Turkey, innocent people don't have to fear the rule of law in this country," wrote Berthold Kohler, a publisher of the conservative daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. "The Boehmermann case is therefore better left in the hands of independent judges."

The comic himself indicated that he planned to take a break from television for a while.

In a Facebook posting Saturday, Boehmermann said he had received support from "the overwhelming majority of those who aren't President Erdogan."



http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_GERMANY_TURKEY_ERDOGAN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-04-16-09-24-15


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April 16, 2016, 08:49:46 PM
 #58

What happened to Germany's democracy and freedom of speech?
A foreign dictator is using the German legal system to silence critics? Is Germany serious?
Wonder who's in charge of Germany?
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April 16, 2016, 09:38:55 PM
 #59

Why doesn't Merkel just get it over with and suck Erdogan's dick on national television already.

BITCOINTALK STAFF SELECTIVELY ENFORCE THE RULES IN AN ATTEMPT TO CREATE A CHILL EFFECT AND PERMANENTLY REMOVE ME AND OTHERS FROM THIS FORUM AS RETALIATION FOR SPEAKING OUT ABOUT THEIR ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR, AND THAT OF THEIR PERSONAL CLIQUES.
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April 17, 2016, 10:33:39 AM
 #60

Böhmermann works for the zdf ( lying .gov press) so this might just be some type of conspiracy or hoax!

On a serious node qwk explained it already that the comedian knew the consequences of his poem ( they explained it beforehand) and in the worst case it will end in a fine.

There are laws for insulting/defamation/libel and additional laws for special cases of the same against presidents of other nations.

Everything what is happening right now is exactly the way it should happen in a state under the rule of law.
You feel insulted you take the person to court and the courts decide.

Btw. Germany will remove the special laws regarding "Beleidigung von Staatsoberhäuptern" because it is just a relict of past times ( deutsches Kaiserreich or weimarer republik?) and not needed anymore.



OK. This is normal in Germany to be fired for your job because you are a comedian. Good to know.




Nobody is fired. He is making a vacation and still works for the zdf.
The zdf also announced it is supporting him with all means nessecary.

It is quite funny if there was no special law for libel against a head of state erdogan would have just used a normal court process which would have went straight to court - 100%.

Because of the special law the german gov has to approve it which is the correct decision.

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