IOHK Research and Scorex ARE NOT working with Waves

[statrubima]

I would suggest you to clone Qora for your project then.
Scorex (which is heavily based on Qora - even on the name) can serve the Waves purposes with asset / asset trading, decentralized trading, crowdfunding etc...everything that Waves promises to deliver.

Cheers

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

[nikster]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

So much drama, now you got your apology. your turn to be a man, Charles.

ride the waves..

[sjccrypto]

Charles,

So, instead of helping the first project that can put Scorex on the map (in some way, already did) you try and sabotage it. (great business decision)

Why? because of a miscommunication that could have been resolved, many weeks before the ICO launch, but instead, found it neccessary to release the information, right at that time.

You say no IOHK employees will be collaborating "IN ANY CAPACITY", yet according to Sasha, Kushti and maybe a one or two others will be advising.

One of you is wrong and if it's you, then you will have misrepresented the facts (lied), with a clear intent to sabotage the WAVES ICO and its' investors. Do you still maintain this position? Show me I am wrong? I really don't like my money being f*cked with.

If it turns out it is you that's wrong, then you owe us WAVES investors an apology.

[110110101]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

Thanks Sasha for speaking up! Looking forward to the progress and building of the waves platform. I've been looking for some news and I'm glad that you took the time to give your opinion with regards to IOHK.

[From Above]

just googgled for 10 sec and found this one

Here is some useful advice. Whenever you  see charleshoskinson write anything at all, and I mean ANYTHING, it's going to be about Charles Hoskinson. Unfortunately his persona is unable to function unless it acts as a self-advertising spambot so you're going to see a lot of information about how charleshoskinson is Charles Hoskinson. The subject matter is irrelevant, it is all about how internet recognition adds 3 inches to your thirdleggitry.

Charles Hoskinson is currently promoting a ponzi scheme called bitshares. I am curious about the backstory here.
Does he have a history of shady dealings?

why do they write shite about this humble man?
 


~CfA~

[sjccrypto]

just googgled for 10 sec and found this one

Here is some useful advice. Whenever you  see charleshoskinson write anything at all, and I mean ANYTHING, it's going to be about Charles Hoskinson. Unfortunately his persona is unable to function unless it acts as a self-advertising spambot so you're going to see a lot of information about how charleshoskinson is Charles Hoskinson. The subject matter is irrelevant, it is all about how internet recognition adds 3 inches to your thirdleggitry.

Charles Hoskinson is currently promoting a ponzi scheme called bitshares. I am curious about the backstory here.
Does he have a history of shady dealings?

 


~CfA~

You need to search for more than 10 seconds to get to know a person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ufCT6lQcY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UT3OZySRcA

[From Above]

just googgled for 10 sec and found this one

Here is some useful advice. Whenever you  see charleshoskinson write anything at all, and I mean ANYTHING, it's going to be about Charles Hoskinson. Unfortunately his persona is unable to function unless it acts as a self-advertising spambot so you're going to see a lot of information about how charleshoskinson is Charles Hoskinson. The subject matter is irrelevant, it is all about how internet recognition adds 3 inches to your thirdleggitry.

Charles Hoskinson is currently promoting a ponzi scheme called bitshares. I am curious about the backstory here.
Does he have a history of shady dealings?

 


~CfA~

You need to search for more than 10 seconds to get to know a person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ufCT6lQcY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UT3OZySRcA

thx for the links!!
(i never claimed that i feel to know him, i do NOT )

~CfA~

[crypto jerk]

What if it turns out Charles is right? Kushti is an acquaintance of Sasha that much we know. However representing Kushti as a consultant/advisor was/is misleading. It presumes that Kushti is involved in the decision making process and the coding process. Whereas if you read what Kushti wrote. It is up to Waves people to figure out how to make the platform work. And acording to Kushti the platform IS NOT READY to work, and needs lots in order to vet it.

The Waves thread represented their project as Kushti was working on it. In reality Kushti is an acquaintance of Sasha, and they had a conversation or two about Scorex. That does not equal advising or consulting.

Charles is right to distance his organization from Waves. There could be serious legal issues regarding Waves ICO.

Charles,

So, instead of helping the first project that can put Scorex on the map (in some way, already did) you try and sabotage it. (great business decision)

Why? because of a miscommunication that could have been resolved, many weeks before the ICO launch, but instead, found it neccessary to release the information, right at that time.

You say no IOHK employees will be collaborating "IN ANY CAPACITY", yet according to Sasha, Kushti and maybe a one or two others will be advising.

One of you is wrong and if it's you, then you will have misrepresented the facts (lied), with a clear intent to sabotage the WAVES ICO and its' investors. Do you still maintain this position? Show me I am wrong? I really don't like my money being f*cked with.

If it turns out it is you that's wrong, then you owe us WAVES investors an apology.

[TPTB_need_war]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

Actions speak louder than words. Have you removed the misleading statements from your website and inserted a disclaimer that your interactions on the open source Scorex do not constitute an endorsement, commitment, nor assistance from IOHK?

I think you don't understand well the predicament Charles is in, considering that he is running a global corporation and is ostensibly a USA citizen. He can't at any costs be later claimed to have contributed to the promotion of illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors (and regulatory issues in other jurisdictions). Although he won't come right out and say this, you need to respect and understand that this issue is most definitely lurking (unless Charles specifically states here that is not an issue for him). He is being diplomatic but it is up to you to have a brain and read between the lines so there won't be a misunderstanding. This is not a small matter. Jail time is potentially involved.

Disclaimer: IANAL so consult your own. And I have had no discussions with Charles on this matter, nor on legal issues, nor any private communication with Charles since 2014 (before he formed Ethereum) afair.

[sasha35625]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

Actions speak louder than words. Have you removed the misleading statements from your website and inserted a disclaimer that your interactions on the open source Scorex do not constitute an endorsement, commitment, nor assistance from IOHK?

I think you don't understand well the predicament Charles is in, considering that he is running a global corporation and is ostensibly a USA citizen. He can't at any costs be later claimed to have contributed to the promotion of illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors (and regulatory issues in other jurisdictions). Although he won't come right out and say this, you need to respect and understand that this issue is most definitely lurking (unless Charles specifically states here that is not an issue for him). He is being diplomatic but it is up to you to have a brain and read between the lines so there won't be a misunderstanding. This is not a small matter. Jail time is potentially involved.

Disclaimer: IANAL so consult your own. And I have had no discussions with Charles on this matter, nor on legal issues, nor any private communication with Charles since 2014 (before he formed Ethereum) afair.

We did not claim to be endorsed by IOHK in any way. I had a very vague idea about what IOHK was before a couple weeks ago. Charles contacted me first, not the other way about. 

[nikster]

Until I receive a formal apology from sasha in this thread for calling me delusional and then telling people to Google my history to see how I'm a "bad actor", there is no possibility of collaboration.

My company and its partners will not work with projects or people who personally attack our personnel or management.

Charles I did this because I couldn't really understand your behavior and what you actually wanted. It was in the heat of the moment and I apologize for this.  I have to mention that I know Alex from NXT community since at least a couple years, we've met at a conference, I've been following Scorex and his articles closely at least since October or November last year. It was a very obvious choice for me to build on scorex, since I liked the approach and it would obviously speed up the development. Of course Scorex is not production-ready but no one was going to put it into production immediately.

I know Alex as a member of NXT community and NXT developer, not as an IOHK employee. I can somehow understand your position now but you should also understand mine. Crypto is about cooperation, and I really expect people to cooperate, especially when they seem interested, like you did. So these developments were unexpected for me,  and I made these remarks.   This situation does not do any good to either party.  Please let's finish this and move on to building products.

Actions speak louder than words. Have you removed the misleading statements from your website and inserted a disclaimer that your interactions on the open source Scorex do not constitute an endorsement, commitment, nor assistance from IOHK?

I think you don't understand well the predicament Charles is in, considering that he is running a global corporation and is ostensibly a USA citizen. He can't at any costs be later claimed to have contributed to the promotion of illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors (and regulatory issues in other jurisdictions). Although he won't come right out and say this, you need to respect and understand that this issue is most definitely lurking (unless Charles specifically states here that is not an issue for him). He is being diplomatic but it is up to you to have a brain and read between the lines so there won't be a misunderstanding. This is not a small matter. Jail time is potentially involved.

Disclaimer: IANAL so consult your own. And I have had no discussions with Charles on this matter, nor on legal issues, nor any private communication with Charles since 2014 (before he formed Ethereum) afair.

Americans should be less political and more contributive to the crypto community.
What do you mean by " illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors "?
Are you serious? what's illegal here? the ico? WHAT?

These kind of childish acts are exactly whats holding progress BACK in all crypto world.
This is mine..This is yours.. grow up.

instead of supporting and contributing to each other, everyone wants what they THINK they deserve.

Kushti is an advisor, and now behind the scenes, all cause of this massive greedy post.
Your'e messing with people's lives, dreams and their investors'.

WAVES is a good idea. and IDEAS are powerful.

[TPTB_need_war]

What do you mean by " illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors "?
Are you serious? what's illegal here? the ico? WHAT?

These kind of childish acts are exactly whats holding progress BACK in all crypto world.
This is mine..This is yours.. grow up.

Your (boastful) ignorance is the problem. Read again the resource I cited upthread.

[nikster]

just googgled for 10 sec and found this one

Here is some useful advice. Whenever you  see charleshoskinson write anything at all, and I mean ANYTHING, it's going to be about Charles Hoskinson. Unfortunately his persona is unable to function unless it acts as a self-advertising spambot so you're going to see a lot of information about how charleshoskinson is Charles Hoskinson. The subject matter is irrelevant, it is all about how internet recognition adds 3 inches to your thirdleggitry.

Charles Hoskinson is currently promoting a ponzi scheme called bitshares. I am curious about the backstory here.
Does he have a history of shady dealings?

 


~CfA~

You need to search for more than 10 seconds to get to know a person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ufCT6lQcY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UT3OZySRcA

thx for the links!!
(i never claimed that i feel to know him, i do NOT )

~CfA~

This ted talk tell us nothing new.
Its the same talk as many others..

Charles, you should take the right path here,
you got your apology even tho your acts was not understandable.
and even malicous in a way, as this was posted on first day of the ico,
and that makes it seems you wanted to create real damage to this platform.

[nikster]

What do you mean by " illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors "?
Are you serious? what's illegal here? the ico? WHAT?

These kind of childish acts are exactly whats holding progress BACK in all crypto world.
This is mine..This is yours.. grow up.

Your (boastful) ignorance is the problem. Read again the resource I cited upthread.

Oh, you come from a family of lawyers.
Its all becoming clear to me now, the insults and your "elite" way.

Yeah..

[TPTB_need_war]

What do you mean by " illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors "?
Are you serious? what's illegal here? the ico? WHAT?

These kind of childish acts are exactly whats holding progress BACK in all crypto world.
This is mine..This is yours.. grow up.

Your (boastful) ignorance is the problem. Read again the resource I cited upthread.

Oh, you come from a family of lawyers.
Its all becoming clear to me now, the insults and your "elite" way.

Yeah..

Man you are oversimplifying. I am a minanarchist. Last time I checked (as far as I know), my father and I don't agree on most things (although I suspect he would respect my insights if he had time to absorb them, but maybe not also since I am more theoretical/abstractly based than he is). I don't have any elitist pedigree in me. I am (one of) the black sheep in the family (actually on further reflection, I think the entire family is composed of black sheep, lol).

Go read the link I provided and learn something.

Those of us who want to create successful projects, know we can't do so from prison.

[nikster]

What do you mean by " illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors "?
Are you serious? what's illegal here? the ico? WHAT?

These kind of childish acts are exactly whats holding progress BACK in all crypto world.
This is mine..This is yours.. grow up.

Your (boastful) ignorance is the problem. Read again the resource I cited upthread.

Oh, you come from a family of lawyers.
Its all becoming clear to me now, the insults and your "elite" way.

Yeah..

Man you are oversimplifying. I am a minanarchist. Last time I checked (as far as I know), my father and I don't agree on most things (although I suspect he would respect my insights if he had time to absorb them, but maybe not also since I am more theoretical/abstractly based than he is). I don't have any elitist pedigree in me. I am (one of) the black sheep in the family (actually on further reflection, I think the entire family is composed of black sheep, lol).

Go read the link I provided and learn something.

Those of us who want to create successful projects, know we can't do so from prison.

Ok, glad we cooled it down.
First of all you seem like a very intelligent person and hardly a "blacksheep". maybe you come from a strong family so you see it this way.
I've started reading your post (the first page), and the related one with the votes.

I think I understand what you mean by illegal, correct me if im wrong,
You say that ICO's can be illegal if their tokens are ecosystem related or not, and if their buying price is significant or not.
actually I voted for option 4, stating its illegal only if its a significant cost without use in the coin's ecosystem.

But since this entire market is still unregulated, and maybe it cant be.. yet.
So if there's no law about it. its neither legal nor illegal.

Thanks and have a nice weekend btw

[sasha35625]

What do you mean by " illegal investment securities to non-accredited USA investors "?
Are you serious? what's illegal here? the ico? WHAT?

These kind of childish acts are exactly whats holding progress BACK in all crypto world.
This is mine..This is yours.. grow up.

Your (boastful) ignorance is the problem. Read again the resource I cited upthread.

Oh, you come from a family of lawyers.
Its all becoming clear to me now, the insults and your "elite" way.

Yeah..

Man you are oversimplifying. I am a minanarchist. Last time I checked (as far as I know), my father and I don't agree on most things (although I suspect he would respect my insights if he had time to absorb them, but maybe not also since I am more theoretical/abstractly based than he is). I don't have any elitist pedigree in me. I am (one of) the black sheep in the family (actually on further reflection, I think the entire family is composed of black sheep, lol).

Go read the link I provided and learn something.

Those of us who want to create successful projects, know we can't do so from prison.

You over-complicate things, It all boils down to this - ICO is not illegal, it's just crowdfunding. If you do some projections about future profits this is illegal.
Actually when you do ICO you're selling a product - token in a value transfer system.

[TPTB_need_war]

I've started reading your post (the first page), and the related one with the votes.

I think I understand what you mean by illegal, correct me if im wrong,
You say that ICO's can be illegal if their tokens are ecosystem related or not, and if their buying price is significant or not.
actually I voted for option 4, stating its illegal only if its a significant cost without use in the coin's ecosystem.

But since this entire market is still unregulated, and maybe it cant be.. yet.
So if there's no law about it. its neither legal nor illegal.

Thanks and have a nice weekend btw

Thanks agreed happy we cooled it down. Same to you.

Your understanding appears to be entirely off in an incorrect direction. It doesn't have anything to do with the coin's ecosystem afaics. Rather it all hinges on whether the n00b investors are basing their expectations of future profit on the future actions of a centralized entity (i.e. the issuers of the ICO and the developers). That is what 'security' means, i.e the centralized entity is 'securing' your future profit.

Note I originally started that linked discussion thinking that one could do an ICO as long as they did not use that raised money in the enterprise of making the project ongoing and if they gave up managerial control. 2112 was more knowledgeable about the law and was steering me to the Howey test so I could learn that I was incorrect.

So I actually started out ignorant. As I studied the issue more in depth, I realized that just about any ICO sold to "unsophisticated, non-accredited" (<-- legal terms with definitions) USA investors is ostensibly illegal and the issuers of the ICO (and potentially also the accomplice promoters) are subject to SEC action even if they are foreign entities.

The test that is applied to determine whether an investment vehicle is a regulated investment security under USA law, is known as the Supreme Court's Howey test.

In the thread I linked for you, the requirements of the test are discussed in great detail. I suggest reading the entire thread so you don't miss any of the nuanced points.

ICO is not illegal, it's just crowdfunding. If you do some projections about future profits this is illegal.
Actually when you do ICO you're selling a product - token in a value transfer system.

That is sort of what I originally thought, but then I realized I was wrong.

The Supreme Court has said it will look past all obfuscations to the economic reality of whether the n00b investors were basing their expectations of future profit on the future actions of the centralized party issuing the tokens and developing the enterprise which the investors are investing in.

Realize I am doing you a big favor. Cancel the ICO immediately and keep yourself out of trouble. Stay focused on being a developer and not involve yourself in this legal tarpit.

[nikster]

I've started reading your post (the first page), and the related one with the votes.

I think I understand what you mean by illegal, correct me if im wrong,
You say that ICO's can be illegal if their tokens are ecosystem related or not, and if their buying price is significant or not.
actually I voted for option 4, stating its illegal only if its a significant cost without use in the coin's ecosystem.

But since this entire market is still unregulated, and maybe it cant be.. yet.
So if there's no law about it. its neither legal nor illegal.

Thanks and have a nice weekend btw

Thanks agreed happy we cooled it down. Same to you.

Your understanding appears to be entirely off in an incorrect direction. It doesn't have anything to do with the coin's ecosystem afaics. Rather it all hinges on whether the n00b investors are basing their expectations of future profit on the future actions of a centralized entity (i.e. the issuers of the ICO and the developers). That is what 'security' means, i.e the centralized entity is 'securing' your future profit.

Note I originally started that linked discussion thinking that one could do an ICO as long as they did not use that raised money in the enterprise of making the project ongoing and if they gave up managerial control. 2112 was more knowledgeable about the law and was steering me to the Howey test so I could learn that I was incorrect.

So I actually started out ignorant. As I studied the issue more in depth, I realized that just about any ICO sold to "unsophisticated, non-accredited" (<-- legal terms with definitions) USA investors is ostensibly illegal and the issuers of the ICO (and potentially also the accomplice promoters) are subject to SEC action even if they are foreign entities.

The test that is applied to determine whether an investment vehicle is a regulated investment security under USA law, is known as the Supreme Court's Howey test.

In the thread I linked for you, the requirements of the test are discussed in great detail. I suggest reading the entire thread so you don't miss any of the nuanced points.

ICO is not illegal, it's just crowdfunding. If you do some projections about future profits this is illegal.
Actually when you do ICO you're selling a product - token in a value transfer system.

That is sort of what I originally thought, but then I realized I was wrong.

The Supreme Court has said it will look past all obfuscations to the economic reality of whether the n00b investors were basing their expectations of future profit on the future actions of the centralized party issuing the tokens and developing the enterprise which the investors are investing in.

Realize I am doing you a big favor. Cancel the ICO immediately and keep yourself out of trouble. Stay focused on being a developer and not involve yourself in this legal tarpit.

But isnt the fact that its all traded for BTC, not standard fiat, changes the entire picture?
Since bitcoin is not recognized as a currency in the usa (and the world...)
No banks or private institutions are involved in the invesments' exchanges.

fiat -> btc -> ico token - process, solves this issue imo.
if it was a credit card / wire transfer, this would be an issue obviously.

And I'll read the rest of the thread later on, it certainly got my interest

[TPTB_need_war]

But isnt the fact that its all traded for BTC, not standard fiat, changes the entire picture?
Since bitcoin is not recognized as a currency in the usa (and europe..)
No banks or private institutions are involved in the invesments' exchanges.

fiat -> btc -> ico token - process, solves this issue imo.
if it was a credit card / wire transfer, this would be an issue obviously.

And I'll read the rest of the thread later on, it certainly got my interest

Again the Supreme Court decisions have more than once emphasized that they will look past obfuscating circumstances and make the determination based on the economic reality. So no, BTC's classification by any one has nothing to do with the fact that BTC can transfer value. The term 'value' is used in the Howey test, not only 'money'.

Disclaimer: IANAL, so please consult your own.