LEGAL COURSE of ACTION Discussion --- bASIC / BitcoinASIC

[agath]

I can't believe it.

I just received the wire transfer from Thomas on my bank account.

So he isn't a liar.

However he never showed me any evidence he would have done it. No bank orders, nothing at all. And he stopped answering all my emails.

I already alerted half the world for this.

Now I was about to go to sleep, when I checked the account, like a ritual (in these days I did it so many times...) and ... SURPRISE. The money is there.

So I apologize with Tom to have called him a liar. However his communication was really poor and I didn't have any clue about what was happening. It seems that the wire transfer took 2 weeks to arrive.

There is still hope that you will see your money refunded.

I will write it in a new topic, so it will be more visible to everyone.

[Clearfly]

I can't believe it.

I just received the wire transfer from Thomas on my bank account.

So he isn't a liar.

However he never showed me any evidence he would have done it. No bank orders, nothing at all. And he stopped answering all my emails.

I already alerted half the world for this.

Now I was about to go to sleep, when I checked the account, like a ritual (in these days I did it so many times...) and ... SURPRISE. The money is there.

So I apologize with Tom to have called him a liar. However his communication was really poor and I didn't have any clue about what was happening. It seems that the wire transfer took 2 weeks to arrive.

There is still hope that you will see your money refunded.

I will write it in a new topic, so it will be more visible to everyone.

[nbtcminer]

@Agath:
 

I don't intend any offense, but it sounds very scammy to hear you post that you suddenly received a refund when a thread about taking legal recourse against Tom has gained traction. If he intended to give back the money he has taken from the community, he best be more transparent about it before his financial life is ruined with legal troubles. Providing you with a refund but not corresponding before doing so is not an acceptable way to do business. It is even less acceptable when a good portion of this community has contacted him and asked him for a refund, yet they have received neither conformation of their requests or a refund. While your luck is note worthy, it is most definitely not a sign that Tom is prepared to return the money to the people who paid him in good faith. He obviously need to help to pay it back the BTC / Wire Transfers and the only way that is seemly going to happen is if it is forced upon him through legal recourse

[Evan]

Thanks. Those sound like some good ideas.

Canvasing.

Victims.

About the EFF.

Class action lawsuit would have to be for ALL US clients, meaning we need I think its 70%, (I think its 70%, and i forget if this is number of people or $$$)

EFF Loves to do Ground breaking Litigation and BTC is ground breaking.

Even if we win litigation in the US against him it might not be enforceable if his funds are not in an US institution, but we could seriously make his life Difficult, to use financial institutions.

Also Damages CAN NOT BE IN BTC WE MUST USE USD DAMAGES, BASED ON THE CONVERSION RATE or TRADE IN VALUE AT THE TIME OF FRAUD.... Not Today's Current MTGox Values. Or will be laughed out of court. 

We Collectively need to stop referring to the BTC we lost, and instead use the real world value in USD of our damages.

[100%digital]

Agath, god you fail so badly.

[creativex]

I can't believe it.

What a coincidence...neither can we.

[||bit]

Class action lawsuit would have to be for ALL US clients, meaning we need I think its 70%, (I think its 70%, and i forget if this is number of people or $$$)

EFF Loves to do Ground breaking Litigation and BTC is ground breaking.

Even if we win litigation in the US against him it might not be enforceable if his funds are not in an US institution, but we could seriously make his life Difficult, to use financial institutions.

Also Damages CAN NOT BE IN BTC WE MUST USE USD DAMAGES, BASED ON THE CONVERSION RATE or TRADE IN VALUE AT THE TIME OF FRAUD.... Not Today's Current MTGox Values. Or will be laughed out of court.  

We Collectively need to stop referring to the BTC we lost, and instead use the real world value in USD of our damages.

Thanks Evans.

How could the EFF help exactly? Would their services be pro bono?

Explain what you mean about the all US clients part? Seems there should also be a way in this to compensate non US persons. I wouldn't want to see half of the clients left out.

About BTC only, it seems to me that if Tom never sold the bitcoins, AND if bitcoins are referred to it as simply "property", then it might be no different than saying Tom has accepted any kind of  property, and that he would have to return the property. But you might be right, and the point is noted.

In either case, we still need a lawyer to consult directly with to describe the options and define a pathway. Did you have a chance to do any canvassing?


BTW: there is a poster in this thread that will get a free legal consultation. He is asking for questions he can ask during the consultation. If you have the chance, consider what questions he can ask and post them here if you have time.

Thanks again.

||bit

[dust]

About BTC only, it seems to me that if Tom never sold the bitcoins, AND if bitcoins are referred to it as simply "property", then it might be no different than saying Tom has accepted any kind of  property, and that he would have to return the property. But you might be right, and the point is noted.

No. The products were priced in USD, BTC was simply used as way of transferring funds.  Tom owes us USD, although it can be repaid with BTC.

[dmcurser]

mhe I feel that i paid in btc he chose to convert it to usd not me he owes me the btc that was sent.

[||bit]

I will write it in a new topic, so it will be more visible to everyone.

Thanks. If it's true, then that is good for you. But until Tom comes out publicly and defines an acceptable/reasonable plan to pay everyone of the people he took property from, then this thread will remain.
And the topic discussed is regarding a legal response to Tom's business fiasco.

||bit

[||bit]

mhe I feel that i paid in btc he chose to convert it to usd not me he owes me the btc that was sent.

The product was priced in USD. You did not have to pay him in BTC. If he took BTC from people, and turned them into USD, then payback will almost certainly be in USD.

My opinion   is that if it can be proven that he never converted the BTC to USD, then there might be another argument there to recover original BTC.
BUT unless that is discovered in the legal process, then plaintiffs (victims making charges against bASIC) probably can't initially ask for BTC. Unless, maybe it can be described & determined as "property" meant for exchange, or as some other kind of legalese. But if some paid in dollars and others in BTC, then this could become an administrative headache. So, to keep the lawyer sane, it might need to be simplified (e.g. everyone claims USD). Afterall, there are already about 80 people that have taken the poll that they have a claim against bASIC.

||bit

[dust]

mhe I feel that i paid in btc he chose to convert it to usd not me he owes me the btc that was sent.

You chose to convert your money to USD the moment you purchased something priced in USD.  bASIC was advertising $1069 ASICs, not XX BTC ASICs.  If you want to continue this discussion, take it here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.0

[LazyOtto]

mhe I feel that i paid in btc he chose to convert it to usd not me he owes me the btc that was sent.

You chose to convert your money to USD the moment you purchased something priced in USD.  bASIC was advertising $1069 ASICs, not XX BTC ASICs.  If you want to continue this discussion, take it here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.0

What dust wrote is correct.

What you 'feel' is not legally relevant.

[dmcurser]

well i might be in a differnt boat as a traded a 100 btc bar for a preorder not btc itself.

[MichaelBliss]

mhe I feel that i paid in btc he chose to convert it to usd not me he owes me the btc that was sent.

You chose to convert your money to USD the moment you purchased something priced in USD.  bASIC was advertising $1069 ASICs, not XX BTC ASICs.  If you want to continue this discussion, take it here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.0

That thread is about BFL, who from the beginning stated they were using bitpay AND having all the BTC converted.  We're talking about a scam, bASIC, and there's no reason Tom should pocket any fraction of the BTC people sent, just because the price of it went up.  It wasn't converted.

[||bit]

It wasn't converted.

Where's proof of this?

I suggested earlier, if this goes legal, then a discovery may reveal that a conversion was never made. This should be traceable since the wallet ID you sent your funds to was recorded at purchase time.
If the discovery is made, then that is the only case where I can imagine people getting back their original BTC - and that is still only my speculation.

Otherwise, the price on the website was in USD, and nobody was forced to use BTC to make the purchase. Therefore, you get back the value in USD.

In the BFL scenario, it's true that BFL used Bitpay as a middle man exchange. However, in the case with bASIC, Tom acted in the same way as Bitpay. He would only have needed to do an immediate conversion by an exchange on receipt of the BTC.

||bit

[PuertoLibre]

http://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field

They will ask you a number of questions and take down you information and provide you with a phone number. Sometimes they will provide you with a number to the field agent in charge (or assigned) to your case.

Use it only as a last resort. Exhaust all options _first_ before using this one.

P.S. Keep in mind, depending on the nature of your [stated] case, they may send someone first and if there is something worthwhile they may perform a search and seizure of property. That may actually work against you in some ways, so keep that in mind.

[greyhawk]

I can't believe it.

I just received the wire transfer from Thomas on my bank account.

So he isn't a liar.
[...]

agath: Registered January 24, 2013, 12:00:12 PM

cablepair: Last Active/Banned:  January 23, 2013, 06:16:33 AM


Get help Tom, you're drunk again.

[agath]

I repeat that I am not Tom, and I am quite well known on IRC (freenode) since before the whole BTCFPGA thing. I opened this thread because I promised to leave a feedback on the forums after I received the funds. Who knows me can confirm it.

I don't hide that I became more than concerned, if not scared, until last night. I hope Tom will refund everyone, he proved to me that he is not a liar.

[greyhawk]

I repeat that I am not Tom, and I am quite well known on IRC (freenode) since before the whole BTCFPGA thing.

You might think so, but the reality of the matter is that I am agath, well known IRC person superstar extraordinaire.  So is the poster six posts above. Also the one 19 posts below.