Provably fair dice - real or bulshit ?

[NLNico]

what do you mean with " MP apps should help the players by verifying each bet directly after it was made."? is the Bet ID not enough where user can check the outcome?

could you give us a sample MP app who implemented it so we could check and tell our coders to add it?

AFAIK ideal way for MP apps for each bet:

1) Get serverseedhash for next bet, show it to user, save it in browser (localstorage.) Note: if the browser is refreshed, STILL, use that same serverseedhash.
2) Generate a cryptographically-secure random clientseed, example of Ryan: https://gist.github.com/RHavar/a6511dea4d4c41aeb1eb Note: if the browser is refreshed, STILL, use that same clientseed.
3) Allow the player to change the clientseed, if he desires to do so.
4) Player clicks *bet*, you send those seeds to make the bet and get the result/serverseed back.
5) Check if the previously saved serverseedhash matches the hash of the bet result serverseed (in the user's browser)
6) Check if you calculate the same bet result with that serverseed (in the user's browser)

And repeat for next bet. This seems like a big process but is fairly easy to make and the player shouldn't even really notice.

You can see DustDice does this: https://github.com/dustdice/dustdice/blob/master/public/scripts/game-logic/engine.js#L205 This is just after making a bet. It verifies the game and it generates a new client seed.


* You will notice that in the process, the clientseed for each bet is different. That is the best way, but some players like to pick a "lucky clientseed". You could actually combine a random but still saved clientseed, described by Ryan here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1065847.msg12018096#msg12018096

is there a provably fair option for the user to verify all his bets after his session and not to check after each loss? this is interrupting each players game and not preferable in our opinion

That is the "nonce method" (using the same seeds for 10, 100 or even 1 million bets, but an incremental nonce to make the result different.) This way, you can verify all the bets, since the verifier just uses the incremental nonce too. But MP doesn't use this method.

MP uses the "per roll method" so the verifying has to be after each bet. This makes sense if you want to automatically verify bets since you don't need to request a new serverseed every time. But it only works if MP apps actually implement the verification process

[bob123]

Provably fair just means its not rigged.
Still 1% houseedge is quite high for an online casino.

[Bagus Tubagus]

Provably fair just means its not rigged.
Still 1% houseedge is quite high for an online casino.

I don't agree it's high, but its low. Go to online casinos who operates with dollars, and you'll see there's higher house edge.

[JackpotRacer]

what do you mean with " MP apps should help the players by verifying each bet directly after it was made."? is the Bet ID not enough where user can check the outcome?

could you give us a sample MP app who implemented it so we could check and tell our coders to add it?

AFAIK ideal way for MP apps for each bet:

1) Get serverseedhash for next bet, show it to user, save it in browser (localstorage.) Note: if the browser is refreshed, STILL, use that same serverseedhash.
2) Generate a cryptographically-secure random clientseed, example of Ryan: https://gist.github.com/RHavar/a6511dea4d4c41aeb1eb Note: if the browser is refreshed, STILL, use that same clientseed.
3) Allow the player to change the clientseed, if he desires to do so.
4) Player clicks *bet*, you send those seeds to make the bet and get the result/serverseed back.
5) Check if the previously saved serverseedhash matches the hash of the bet result serverseed (in the user's browser)
6) Check if you calculate the same bet result with that serverseed (in the user's browser)

And repeat for next bet. This seems like a big process but is fairly easy to make and the player shouldn't even really notice.

You can see DustDice does this: https://github.com/dustdice/dustdice/blob/master/public/scripts/game-logic/engine.js#L205 This is just after making a bet. It verifies the game and it generates a new client seed.


* You will notice that in the process, the clientseed for each bet is different. That is the best way, but some players like to pick a "lucky clientseed". You could actually combine a random but still saved clientseed, described by Ryan here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1065847.msg12018096#msg12018096

is there a provably fair option for the user to verify all his bets after his session and not to check after each loss? this is interrupting each players game and not preferable in our opinion

That is the "nonce method" (using the same seeds for 10, 100 or even 1 million bets, but an incremental nonce to make the result different.) This way, you can verify all the bets, since the verifier just uses the incremental nonce too. But MP doesn't use this method.

MP uses the "per roll method" so the verifying has to be after each bet. This makes sense if you want to automatically verify bets since you don't need to request a new serverseed every time. But it only works if MP apps actually implement the verification process

thank you very much for taking the time for this detailed explanation

I understood form MP head dev that v2 soon out will use the nonce method. lets see if MP can confirm this.

if yes that would be ideal in our opinion

thx again

[JackpotRacer]

Provably fair just means its not rigged.
Still 1% houseedge is quite high for an online casino.

thats your opinion and thats fair enough but you don'd mind if we don't agree. a good example is roulette

[fullypak]

Provably fair just means its not rigged.
Still 1% houseedge is quite high for an online casino.

thats your opinion and thats fair enough but you don'd mind if we don't agree. a good example is roulette

Reputed sites may not do these kind of hidden things because they know the potential of this online gambling business. If they can attract more people with honesty and good service then they can make really big money in normal ways without doing all these hidden things. But new sites may do these short cuts to get more money in faster ways, so chose carefully to gamble.

[goldcoinminer]

Provably fair just means its not rigged.
Still 1% houseedge is quite high for an online casino.

thats your opinion and thats fair enough but you don'd mind if we don't agree. a good example is roulette

Rigged or not rigged, the house still wins, they are in the business to generate profit. Please bear always in mind that you cannot last in any online gambling sites especially in dice due to house edge the gambling site sets. In order to win don't play long because the longer you play the more chances you lost in the long run.

[bitkilo]

what do you mean with " MP apps should help the players by verifying each bet directly after it was made."? is the Bet ID not enough where user can check the outcome?

could you give us a sample MP app who implemented it so we could check and tell our coders to add it?

AFAIK ideal way for MP apps for each bet:

1) Get serverseedhash for next bet, show it to user, save it in browser (localstorage.) Note: if the browser is refreshed, STILL, use that same serverseedhash.
2) Generate a cryptographically-secure random clientseed, example of Ryan: https://gist.github.com/RHavar/a6511dea4d4c41aeb1eb Note: if the browser is refreshed, STILL, use that same clientseed.
3) Allow the player to change the clientseed, if he desires to do so.
4) Player clicks *bet*, you send those seeds to make the bet and get the result/serverseed back.
5) Check if the previously saved serverseedhash matches the hash of the bet result serverseed (in the user's browser)
6) Check if you calculate the same bet result with that serverseed (in the user's browser)

And repeat for next bet. This seems like a big process but is fairly easy to make and the player shouldn't even really notice.

You can see DustDice does this: https://github.com/dustdice/dustdice/blob/master/public/scripts/game-logic/engine.js#L205 This is just after making a bet. It verifies the game and it generates a new client seed.


* You will notice that in the process, the clientseed for each bet is different. That is the best way, but some players like to pick a "lucky clientseed". You could actually combine a random but still saved clientseed, described by Ryan here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1065847.msg12018096#msg12018096

is there a provably fair option for the user to verify all his bets after his session and not to check after each loss? this is interrupting each players game and not preferable in our opinion

That is the "nonce method" (using the same seeds for 10, 100 or even 1 million bets, but an incremental nonce to make the result different.) This way, you can verify all the bets, since the verifier just uses the incremental nonce too. But MP doesn't use this method.

MP uses the "per roll method" so the verifying has to be after each bet. This makes sense if you want to automatically verify bets since you don't need to request a new serverseed every time. But it only works if MP apps actually implement the verification process

thank you very much for taking the time for this detailed explanation

I understood form MP head dev that v2 soon out will use the nonce method. lets see if MP can confirm this.

if yes that would be ideal in our opinion

thx again

Thanks from me too, i will look into this myself.
Could the incremental nonce using one seed be curupted by bad actors/scammers like predicting future rolls?
If any what are the week points using 1 seed for all bets?

[NLNico]

Since one of the inputs is a clientseed (that the site doesn't know when you get the serverseedhash), the future rolls are all random and the site cannot influence it. But after the first bet (or when the site has the clientseed), the site can indeed calculate all future rolls. The site just cannot influence or change them. A hacker could also do this and win all the bets, which is why security is so important for the site owner. Although with the "per roll" method, if the hacker can get the seeds, it's equally dangerous since it already has the clientseed so can calculate the bet result as well.



For the player, the weak point is mostly that "automated verifying" is easier with the "per roll method" (while manually checking or using a verifier is easier with the "nonce method".) Overall the "nonce method" is much better for the player, although I can understand the initial reason to have "per roll" for MP.





edit: another potential disadvantage of the "nonce method", is that all future rolls are already predicted. So let's say you have a bad losing streak so you stop betting and you start to verify your rolls (generate a new serverseed)... it's possible to see what your next bet result would have been. If this would have been a win, you could make yourself pretty crazy This obviously isn't really a technical thing though.

[maku]

I am not all that techy and I can't say that I know every detail of Provably Fair system. I know basics and understand how this system works.
However there were cases in the past that users found a way to tinker with Provably Fair system and manipulate outcome of a roll (Hufflepuff incident).
And now my question: can this scenario be reversed somehow? So that House could in the theory manipulate the rolls?

[gizane]

Provably fair just means its not rigged.
Still 1% houseedge is quite high for an online casino.

thats your opinion and thats fair enough but you don'd mind if we don't agree. a good example is roulette

Rigged or not rigged, the house still wins, they are in the business to generate profit. Please bear always in mind that you cannot last in any online gambling sites especially in dice due to house edge the gambling site sets. In order to win don't play long because the longer you play the more chances you lost in the long run.

Although the site always win in the end but they will always winner and loser and house is playing with so many player so although they win doesnt mean that all player sure lose. Some of them sure get a good profit too but oeverall it looks like house will always win. Play with a longer time or shorter time this is only some fallacy because winning or losing is depends on your luck not on the time that you spend and you can't be greedy because this will eat up your balance for sure

[lixer]

If it was such then how HufflePuff scammed them.
Primedice would easily know that he is scamming, please get enough proofs because otherwise you just get bad comments.

[goldcoinminer]

Provably fair just means its not rigged.
Still 1% houseedge is quite high for an online casino.

thats your opinion and thats fair enough but you don'd mind if we don't agree. a good example is roulette

Rigged or not rigged, the house still wins, they are in the business to generate profit. Please bear always in mind that you cannot last in any online gambling sites especially in dice due to house edge the gambling site sets. In order to win don't play long because the longer you play the more chances you lost in the long run.

Although the site always win in the end but they will always winner and loser and house is playing with so many player so although they win doesnt mean that all player sure lose. Some of them sure get a good profit too but oeverall it looks like house will always win. Play with a longer time or shorter time this is only some fallacy because winning or losing is depends on your luck not on the time that you spend and you can't be greedy because this will eat up your balance for sure

That's what you called house versus the bettors, and due to the house edge house is always an overall winner. The provably fair is real but I am still skeptical on it due to the fact that I don't know how read it since I am not much of a computer genius but I would still gamble on them only what I can afford to lose.

[brituspol]

However there were cases in the past that users found a way to tinker with Provably Fair system and manipulate outcome of a roll (Hufflepuff incident).

No, HP could only get the results of his bets beforehand. He would then just make some losing bets to make it seem as he was not cheating, while in the long run he mostly won.

And now my question: can this scenario be reversed somehow? So that House could in the theory manipulate the rolls?

Yes a casino can, however it wouldn't go unnoticed for more than a week. There are several examples of such manipulations, with 999dice being one of them.

[Bitkong.me]

I am not all that techy and I can't say that I know every detail of Provably Fair system. I know basics and understand how this system works.
However there were cases in the past that users found a way to tinker with Provably Fair system and manipulate outcome of a roll (Hufflepuff incident).
And now my question: can this scenario be reversed somehow? So that House could in the theory manipulate the rolls?

Hufflepuff incident wasn't manipulating, he basically had an second account with same server secret, so he first bet there and with knowledge of outcome (or with revealed server secret from second account) placed bigger bets in his first account.

If everything done correctly, manipulation is impossible, operator cannot change predefined result. Without client seed, or with client seed generated by operator (even locally, as operator can send it to the server before generating server seed, very hard to catch), operator can cheat by learning players' behavior. Example: You always bet High 50, so by knowing client seed, operator can generate server seed that give more Low 50 results (but this is too dangerous for operator because you may decide to play Low 50 this time).

Provably fair is a best thing happened to gambling, after bitcoin

[Shinpako09]

Dude even if the sites are fair it doesnt mean that you will win. Always keep on your mind that house always win before you gamble. And thats the risk we are taking. If someone lose it doesnt mean that house isnt fair its just because house always win.

[saiha]

Dude even if the sites are fair it doesnt mean that you will win. Always keep on your mind that house always win before you gamble. And thats the risk we are taking. If someone lose it doesnt mean that house isnt fair its just because house always win.

Yeah, Dice sites are also business. And owners want to have profit. That's why dice sites would be fair if you are a first time dicer but as the time goes by they will just let you lose any time you play.

[Sled]

Dude even if the sites are fair it doesnt mean that you will win. Always keep on your mind that house always win before you gamble. And thats the risk we are taking. If someone lose it doesnt mean that house isnt fair its just because house always win.

Yeah, Dice sites are also business. And owners want to have profit. That's why dice sites would be fair if you are a first time dicer but as the time goes by they will just let you lose any time you play.

Yeah, but still the can still lose if you have the luck that anyone dont have 
many Casino closed because they went bankrupt.

[BTCevo]

Dude even if the sites are fair it doesnt mean that you will win. Always keep on your mind that house always win before you gamble. And thats the risk we are taking. If someone lose it doesnt mean that house isnt fair its just because house always win.

Yeah, Dice sites are also business. And owners want to have profit. That's why dice sites would be fair if you are a first time dicer but as the time goes by they will just let you lose any time you play.

All business sure aim for profit, there is no business that not aim for profit. Not only dice site should be provably fair, all casino must have this provably fair or people wont play at their site. Before start a gambling site provably fair is a must, thats why most site nowadays always promote their provably fair system and house edge because both of these are the core of gambling site

[HeroCat]

Probably fair - it is a question. In fact I think that if dice site owners do not crash, there is profit for them, otherwise they will close down their dice sites.