Email from Avalon

[sidehack]

So what's your need and what's your want?
All you want is a downclock/downvoltageble miner? If so, it's possible.
If you need a miner under 500W? It's possible.
any others?

There have been no decent miners under 500W released since the Antminer S3 in summer 2014. I'm not including Technobit's Minion boards in these considerations for the well-documented reason that that offering was mostly a scam; in any case, it was also summer 2014.

There have been two consumer/non-rackmount miners released since the S3 came out that allowed downvolting - the Avalon4 (fall 2014) and SP20 (winter 2014).

Nobody said it wasn't possible to do this. What we said was, nobody's done it in a year and a half and it's about friggin' time somebody did because it's what a lot of us want. What I'm saying is, if you don't want to, sell chips to someone who does. You make money from the sale of chips; with the exception of providing technical information to a very few technically competent people there is no customer service required on your part. If those chips go into miners designed for a customer base you are not serving, direct competition is minimized and you make money off miners you didn't have to build, you don't have to support and that are going to people who wouldn't have been your customers anyway. It's probably worth thinking about at least.

[2112]

I understand you want to make money , but having your chips in other peoples designs would make you money not cost you money.

This is your mistake. It isn't about money. It is about respect, and by "respected" it one from the Occident should probably think "feared". My shortest explanation is that ngzhang belongs to a class of people for whom having 90% of $1000 is more than having 10% of $100000. It isn't about getting more money, it is about getting more respect. It is a fundamental difference in motivation.

[2112]

You make money from the sale of chips; with the exception of providing technical information to a very few technically competent people there is no customer service required on your part.

He can't do this because it is too risky for him. It is possible that your design would be better than his. That would mean a "loss of face" or loss of respect (and self-respect) for him. That's why he can't and wont risk doing what you propose.

[philipma1957]

I understand you want to make money , but having your chips in other peoples designs would make you money not cost you money.

This is your mistake. It isn't about money. It is about respect, and by "respected" it one from the Occident should probably think "feared". My shortest explanation is that ngzhang belongs to a class of people for whom having 90% of $1000 is more than having 10% of $100000. It isn't about getting more money, it is about getting more respect. It is a fundamental difference in motivation.

Well put My brother has often tried to explain 'respect' and loss of it in the Chinese culture to me.

My brother has spent 5 years in Taiwan and 3 years in mainland China.  He was a dean at a NYC college he speaks reads and writes Chinese and has a PHD from Columbia in Linguistics .  Pretty much really smart in comparison to me.


The chip  in a design other then Avalon 's own design most likely will not happen  for a lot of reasons including your respect one.

As I see this from the viewpoint of I don't need to mine for money.  I don't try to make a lot of money and I really want to promote small mining as much as I can.
This is just not an agenda for any asic builder as the small miner with 'free' power kills big farms.

Many people can do a small miner at their office legally. By small 500 to 700 watts not noisy for space heating.


Many homes in the USA have electrical heat old school plain and simple radiator type.
In my area  there are two senior only developments they use electrical heat. four room small homes with 1 bath.  They would be ideal for 500 watt miners like an s-3.
Quiet and they just  could tie into a network in the club house of the development.

Both cases above put a hurt on large farms. 
As for sidehack building a better miner then avalon would build he probably would  in adjustability  and efficiency .

Frankly I don't sit in on a 25ph farm and listen to them discuss what they want with Avalon. They work from a different viewpoint. Then I do.
They would make the coin and sell the coin and leave the system in the dust.

But the crypto world will adjust  look at  Eth coin   it is an adjustment to  BTC asic builders.   The gpu companies have gaming and design as 1 and 2 but they have come to realize mining can help their bottom line.  Eth coin will switch to POS is Eth asics come out.

then a new coin with a new algorithm will take over. always keeping gpu's as top miner.
In time this could simply kill off asic btc.   Why because they won't sell chips to different designers.

Many companies make gpus and the major chips in them are more accessible to designers.  so by hoarding asic chips  the major players are risking the future of btc.

I spend 1400 watts for 150 mh to mine eth coin  even at my 17 cent summer power rate I turn a profit.  plus have good pc's to sell if I choose.
Plus I know that if an asic builder builds an asic chip the coin goes to POS.

Mind you I will still buy an avalon 7 and an bitmaintech s-9 for the array.

But my agenda is small miners in house as it keeps the gear everywhere. So if rotating from BTC asics to Eth coin gpus allows miners to be more wide spread I will push Eth coin.

As an aside  AMD  has more then enough money to prop up the price of Eth coin buying it on exchanges .  It will help thier gpu sales.

[sidehack]

then a new coin with a new algorithm will take over. always keeping gpu's as top miner.
In time this could simply kill off asic btc.   Why because they won't sell chips to different designers.

Completely off topic, but this is one of the reasons I don't support any altcoin at all. The only coin worth supporting is one with long-term viability. Mining a coin you expect to die and be overtaken by another is working for short-term profit and in that scenario, when you profit someone is left holding the bag.

Anyway.

If I built a miner better than what Avalon themselves could produce, it's only because I have a different definition of "better" than they're operating with - a different set of priorities. Based on everything from S5 to Avalon6, it looks like the big manufacturers are now prioritizing a minimal parts count and maximizing efficiency. That makes sense, to a certain extent. However, when you run your ASICs at the top end of their efficiency curve you leave a lot of room for improvement (at the expense of more ASICs per hashrate; see S2 1J/GH 1.57GH/ASIC vs S1 2J/GH 2.8GH/ASIC with the same chip). If a miner had a stock setpoint of the chips' top-end capability but allowed for adjusting the clock and voltage, the efficiency could be improved by 30-50% (depends heavily on the chip of course) at a cost of hashrate. But if the miner is priced to break even at top clock, after that any extension of its viable life because of undervolting means more profit. As recently noted in another thread, the year-and-a-half-old SP20 is still viable for some consumers because its adjustable efficiency range is from about 1J/GH down to something like 0.45J/GH, which extended its life substantially and kept it viable through the next two generations of competitor hardware.

In the Avalon4/SP20/S5 generation of gear, I didn't have available funds to buy miners but of those three the only one I actively wanted was the Avalon4. Because it was quiet and allowed for voltage adjustment. Both of those attributes are now considered unneccessary features but if you took a poll of users here you'd likely see an overwhelming response in favor of machines that run quietly and have adjustable voltage. If you want respect from the community, the way to do it is not to ignore them, but to facilitate getting them what they want and doing so graciously. When I got chips from Bitmain there was quite a bit of positive PR in the community for them being willing to make that deal. When Bitfury announced they'd be selling their new chips to third parties, that was the talk for the next few months; when in the previous generation Bitfury kept them all to themselves that was grumbled at for most of a year. Just saying, whether you want money, respect or both, supporting the development of a miner within the community and geared toward the small miners would have an incredible return compared to the amount of effort required.

[tntdgcr]

Any way I can get any information from you guys about the A7 chip? Or even the A6 chip? Not a single one of my inquiries about anything have been responded to since last June so I gave up after about six months of trying.

I had set up a big sale of Avalon4 units between Canaan-Creative and a guy I was consulting for who was starting a farm. He ended up never paying for the order (a problem the guy had often, which is why I use the past tense in regard to my dealing with him; I was tired of facilitating his laziness screwing people) so I assume I've been officially spurned on my deadbeat client's behalf but I'd really like that to change.

Sense miner design and production become a very difficult (mainly about cost, timing, supply chain, manufacture, software, etc...)job, I hardly believe any 3rd party can do a competitive design. I think anyone (who is not in present industry )should give up for self-miner-production-for-self-mining . Or you have different opinion?

At minimum , I'd think that potentially , "licensing" production onward to smaller regional players could make sense. I understand the sentiment, we've seen so many bad entrants, failed projects, defunct companies come and go. However, in earnest, not since BitFury 55nm has anyone actually stepped up and supplied chips to the people that want them. ( At worst,  you sell more chips , others fail , CC proves correct )

We love our A6s , it's my favorite current gen miner, how soon is soon for the A7 in your mind?

[ngzhang]

Well, I think there are many viewpoints and opinions, I suggest please email love@canaan.io with your ideas and business proposals. Canaan is open minded. Please follow us at https://twitter.com/canaanio

 

[kilo17]

Well, I think there are many viewpoints and opinions, I suggest please email love@canaan.io with your ideas and business proposals. Canaan is open minded. Please follow us at https://twitter.com/canaanio

 

There is a very long thread here about myself and SideHack producing a miner using Avalon chips- it just so happens I got screwed on the deal by your partners at BlockC and was promised chips then they decided I could not have them.

So the deal is still on the table if you would like to help us.

Keith

[not.you]

I think there is probably a larger demand than most people realize for a real alternative to bitmain.  I would even pay more (as long as the price still made it profitable in the end) to support an alternative manufacturer.

[philipma1957]

I think there is probably a larger demand than most people realize for a real alternative to bitmain.  I would even pay more (as long as the price still made it profitable in the end) to support an alternative manufacturer.

I have purchased about 8 or 9 avalon6s for myself.

I helped sell about 40 in group buys.

I like the company.

I would love them to set sidehack up to build smaller miners here in USA .

A 300 to 600 watt model.

I have invested in sidehack's compac sticks.

I would invest in this idea.

I would also help to distribute a smaller miner if it is ever available.

[valkir]

Im like Phil, I believe in Sidehack and already invested in his project.

I bought avalon 4 and 6 and did some review. I also helped for the distribution of Compac in Canada and will be more than happy to help the distribution of the next gear.

Come on Avalon, give us some chip to keep the home mining alive 

[d57heinz]

Im like Phil, I believe in Sidehack and already invested in his project.

I bought avalon 4 and 6 and did some review. I also helped for the distribution of Compac in Canada and will be more than happy to help the distribution of the next gear.

Come on Avalon, give us some chip to keep the home mining alive  

I think there is probably a larger demand than most people realize for a real alternative to bitmain.  I would even pay more (as long as the price still made it profitable in the end) to support an alternative manufacturer.

I have purchased about 8 or 9 avalon6s for myself.

I helped sell about 40 in group buys.

I like the company.

I would love them to set sidehack up to build smaller miners here in USA .

A 300 to 600 watt model.

I have invested in sidehack's compac sticks.

I would invest in this idea.

I would also help to distribute a smaller miner if it is ever available.

for these reasons .. they will not send sidehack chips.> It cuts into their bottom line.. Instead they would love to sell you a miner


i bet they would send them to me  They prolly think id get stuck with them and wouldnt hurt their bottom line.. You guys airing this all out in the open has been whats hurt so many projects in this space to date.. Maybe now you will think of this before hand.. They see that sidehack will most likely be able to pull this off thus fucking him on his chips.

EDIT> also since its the sales of miners that is keeping this afloat.. Sidehack would have to be in agreement with the other asic manufacturers on how much of sales goes back into propping up the price to further future sales

Best Regards
d57heinz

[philipma1957]

Im like Phil, I believe in Sidehack and already invested in his project.

I bought avalon 4 and 6 and did some review. I also helped for the distribution of Compac in Canada and will be more than happy to help the distribution of the next gear.

Come on Avalon, give us some chip to keep the home mining alive  

I think there is probably a larger demand than most people realize for a real alternative to bitmain.  I would even pay more (as long as the price still made it profitable in the end) to support an alternative manufacturer.

I have purchased about 8 or 9 avalon6s for myself.

I helped sell about 40 in group buys.

I like the company.

I would love them to set sidehack up to build smaller miners here in USA .

A 300 to 600 watt model.

I have invested in sidehack's compac sticks.

I would invest in this idea.

I would also help to distribute a smaller miner if it is ever available.

for these reasons .. they will not send sidehack chips.> It cuts into their bottom line.. Instead they would love to sell you a miner


i bet they would send them to me  They prolly think id get stuck with them and wouldnt hurt their bottom line.. You guys airing this all out in the open has been whats hurt so many projects in this space to date.. Maybe now you will think of this before hand.. They see that sidehack will most likely be able to pull this off thus fucking him on his chips.

EDIT> also since its the sales of miners that is keeping this afloat.. Sidehack would have to be in agreement with the other asic manufacturers on how much of sales goes back into propping up the price to further future sales

Best Regards
d57heinz

Well you may see it that their bottom line gets cut if they sell 10000 chips to sidehack.  They may see it that way.

Frankly  they shut the door on the guy that wants a decent lottery miner.



How about  a smaller unit for the guy that can run 400 watts all year long for free.  As he would be using a space heater anyway.

Why shut that guy out?  No need to do that. 

  let sidehack build one here from chips

and copy it from sidehack to sell it in china.

Both China gets it and USA  + Europe gets it.

[sidehack]

Like I've said for a long time, I don't want to compete with 1KW units. My target customer is the guy who wouldn't be buying their hot loud machines anyway, so they'd be getting a cut of sales they wouldn't have had otherwise.

and copy it from sidehack to sell it in china.

If by "copy" you mean "license" or some other formal agreement for IP sharing, sure. If by "copy" you mean "steal", to hell with that.

[philipma1957]

Like I've said for a long time, I don't want to compete with 1KW units. My target customer is the guy who wouldn't be buying their hot loud machines anyway, so they'd be getting a cut of sales they wouldn't have had otherwise.

and copy it from sidehack to sell it in china.

If by "copy" you mean "license" or some other formal agreement for IP sharing, sure. If by "copy" you mean "steal", to hell with that.

I would mean you do an agreement that in turn for chips sold to you and support on chip  pin out to pcb layout.

once you make the design they could use it in China/Asia

 you could use it in USA/Canada.

Small ½ power models say 400-600 watts.

We all know they do bigger units but if they want to supply small ½ power units to China /Asia it is a natural to share the design with them.

While you handle USA Canada South + Central America.

You did a deal with a europe guy for the compac stick    so something on those lines.

You agree to only do 400-600 watt machine so as not to compete against their 900-1200 watt machine.
You don't sell your 400-600 watt machine to China /Asia you license them to do that.
They only sell they 400-600 copy of your machine to  China /Asia .

It is a simple easy business plan.

[sidehack]

I'd be up for an agreement. I won't design a consumer miner with a stock setpoint above about 500W DC consumption, so yeah competing with 900+W is by no means what I want to do.

To be transparent, I did license the Compac design to MacEntyre for $2 per unit of whatever he manufactured, in addition to the understanding I'd send any Euro customers his way.