[BitFunder] Ziggap Bitcoin Sales Service

[usagi]

ZIGGAP still owes people on BTCJAM over 900 bitcoins.

Links? / OP care to comment on this?

Now you know where your invested coins are going to...... BTCJam.
Don't be surprised if the OP vanishes with your coins.

Obviously.

And they shouldnt be paying ANY dividends while still owing their original creditors.

Why not? It's perfectly acceptable to have accounts owing and still pay dividends. Let's check:

https://btcjam.com/listings/584

Borrower Reputation 100%
Positive:    147    Negative:    0
+bitcointalk    +bitcoin-otc
otc nick: aethero

This loan is in good standing. So I don't see why he can't also run a company that pays dividends.

[Deprived]

ZIGGAP still owes people on BTCJAM over 900 bitcoins.

Links? / OP care to comment on this?

The initial owner of ZIGGAP did take out that loan to start the company, however that loan was taken out by HIM and not by the company. The funds from this IPO are for the company, and not for him. Ergo the funds from this IPO are not going to be used to pay the loan.

So someone else started Ziggap and has now sold it - and you (new owners) didn't take on the loan?
How do we know you won't sell it again - and this time the next owners won't take on paying dividends to the shares?

Once a company has skipped on its commitments once it's hard to have confidence it won't do it again - especially when there's no record anywhere I can see of a change of ownership (i.e. for all we know the 'new' owners could be same as the 'old' ones - and the change of ownership just an excuse to default on the loan).  This really should have been explained in your OP - rather than dragged into the light by someone else later.

Who said the company changed ownership? Right now this account is speaking as the company which is composed of a team of individuals. Who has skipped on any commitments? Is the loan behind? Or late? Or defaulted?

The point that I'm trying to make is that all personal assets or liabilities and company assets or liabilities are kept strictly separate from each other at all times. The owner of ZIGGAP took that loan, not ZIGGAP. ZIGGAP is composed of multiple individuals but was started by one individual.

Well what you say here doesn't match what was said in the BTCJam listing.

It's listed there as a business loan not a personal loan.

And there's NOT an "initial owner" - it says "Ryan and Stormy Schreiber," : or are "and Stormy" the two middle names of the owner?  If there are two people, one named Ryan and the other Stormy then which of these is the "initial owner" who has responsibility for the loan?  And does the other one know that he was never one of the owners?

Your (if it's you) responses to questions there further make it clear that the loan is to a business not an individual - discussing things such as what happens if the business fails.

Now it may well be that you intend to honour the debt and are now trying to CONVERT it into a personal loan: but spinning it as though it was always a personal loan (albeit used to invest in a business) just doesn't wash.

[poly]

ZIGGAP still owes people on BTCJAM over 900 bitcoins.

Links? / OP care to comment on this?

Now you know where your invested coins are going to...... BTCJam.
Don't be surprised if the OP vanishes with your coins.

Obviously.

And they shouldnt be paying ANY dividends while still owing their original creditors.

Why not? It's perfectly acceptable to have accounts owing and still pay dividends. Let's check:

https://btcjam.com/listings/584

Borrower Reputation 100%
Positive:    147    Negative:    0
+bitcointalk    +bitcoin-otc
otc nick: aethero

This loan is in good standing. So I don't see why he can't also run a company that pays dividends.

The problem is that the IPO funds are supposed to be going towards the business, ziggap, not used to repay a BTCJAM "personal" loan.

[Deprived]

ZIGGAP still owes people on BTCJAM over 900 bitcoins.

Links? / OP care to comment on this?

Now you know where your invested coins are going to...... BTCJam.
Don't be surprised if the OP vanishes with your coins.

Obviously.

And they shouldnt be paying ANY dividends while still owing their original creditors.

Why not? It's perfectly acceptable to have accounts owing and still pay dividends. Let's check:

https://btcjam.com/listings/584

Borrower Reputation 100%
Positive:    147    Negative:    0
+bitcointalk    +bitcoin-otc
otc nick: aethero

This loan is in good standing. So I don't see why he can't also run a company that pays dividends.

Yeah, there's no reason why having debt should prevent paying dividends - the vast majority of companies have debt of some kind, no matter how profitable they are.  What's wrong is that the debt was incurred in the name of the company but wasn't disclosed when selling the IPO: but then disclosing financial details has never been a strong point of BTC IPOs.

[ZIGGAP]

ZIGGAP still owes people on BTCJAM over 900 bitcoins.

Links? / OP care to comment on this?

The initial owner of ZIGGAP did take out that loan to start the company, however that loan was taken out by HIM and not by the company. The funds from this IPO are for the company, and not for him. Ergo the funds from this IPO are not going to be used to pay the loan.

So someone else started Ziggap and has now sold it - and you (new owners) didn't take on the loan?
How do we know you won't sell it again - and this time the next owners won't take on paying dividends to the shares?

Once a company has skipped on its commitments once it's hard to have confidence it won't do it again - especially when there's no record anywhere I can see of a change of ownership (i.e. for all we know the 'new' owners could be same as the 'old' ones - and the change of ownership just an excuse to default on the loan).  This really should have been explained in your OP - rather than dragged into the light by someone else later.

Who said the company changed ownership? Right now this account is speaking as the company which is composed of a team of individuals. Who has skipped on any commitments? Is the loan behind? Or late? Or defaulted?

The point that I'm trying to make is that all personal assets or liabilities and company assets or liabilities are kept strictly separate from each other at all times. The owner of ZIGGAP took that loan, not ZIGGAP. ZIGGAP is composed of multiple individuals but was started by one individual.

Well what you say here doesn't match what was said in the BTCJam listing.

It's listed there as a business loan not a personal loan.

And there's NOT an "initial owner" - it says "Ryan and Stormy Schreiber," : or are "and Stormy" the two middle names of the owner?  If there are two people, one named Ryan and the other Stormy then which of these is the "initial owner" who has responsibility for the loan?  And does the other one know that he was never one of the owners?

Your (if it's you) responses to questions there further make it clear that the loan is to a business not an individual - discussing things such as what happens if the business fails.

Now it may well be that you intend to honour the debt and are now trying to CONVERT it into a personal loan: but spinning it as though it was always a personal loan (albeit used to invest in a business) just doesn't wash.

A loan FOR a business is not the same thing as a loan TO a business. How could Ryan or Stormy have taken a loan AS a business when the loan was used to create the business? It didn't exist before that.

Do you see how there are first and last names up there on the loan, but there are none anywhere on the IPO documentation or the website?

[poly]

So just to confirm, zilch coins from this IPO will be used to pay back the btcjam debt? Will you be releasing accurate financial statements on all of your income and expenses, listed along with the monthly dividend payments?

[ZIGGAP]

So just to confirm, zilch coins from this IPO will be used to pay back the btcjam debt? Will you be releasing accurate financial statements on all of your income and expenses, listed along with the monthly dividend payments?

Yes of course profit and loss statements will be listed along with dividends. The first dividend is in April. Expect a detailed profit and loss report and potentially other reporting of ZIGGAP's financial standing.

[Deprived]

ZIGGAP still owes people on BTCJAM over 900 bitcoins.

Links? / OP care to comment on this?

The initial owner of ZIGGAP did take out that loan to start the company, however that loan was taken out by HIM and not by the company. The funds from this IPO are for the company, and not for him. Ergo the funds from this IPO are not going to be used to pay the loan.

So someone else started Ziggap and has now sold it - and you (new owners) didn't take on the loan?
How do we know you won't sell it again - and this time the next owners won't take on paying dividends to the shares?

Once a company has skipped on its commitments once it's hard to have confidence it won't do it again - especially when there's no record anywhere I can see of a change of ownership (i.e. for all we know the 'new' owners could be same as the 'old' ones - and the change of ownership just an excuse to default on the loan).  This really should have been explained in your OP - rather than dragged into the light by someone else later.

Who said the company changed ownership? Right now this account is speaking as the company which is composed of a team of individuals. Who has skipped on any commitments? Is the loan behind? Or late? Or defaulted?

The point that I'm trying to make is that all personal assets or liabilities and company assets or liabilities are kept strictly separate from each other at all times. The owner of ZIGGAP took that loan, not ZIGGAP. ZIGGAP is composed of multiple individuals but was started by one individual.

Well what you say here doesn't match what was said in the BTCJam listing.

It's listed there as a business loan not a personal loan.

And there's NOT an "initial owner" - it says "Ryan and Stormy Schreiber," : or are "and Stormy" the two middle names of the owner?  If there are two people, one named Ryan and the other Stormy then which of these is the "initial owner" who has responsibility for the loan?  And does the other one know that he was never one of the owners?

Your (if it's you) responses to questions there further make it clear that the loan is to a business not an individual - discussing things such as what happens if the business fails.

Now it may well be that you intend to honour the debt and are now trying to CONVERT it into a personal loan: but spinning it as though it was always a personal loan (albeit used to invest in a business) just doesn't wash.

A loan FOR a business is not the same thing as a loan TO a business. How could Ryan or Stormy have taken a loan AS a business when the loan was used to create the business? It didn't exist before that.

Do you see how there are first and last names up there on the loan, but there are none anywhere on the IPO documentation or the website?

SO who was the "initial owner"?  

You claim it was a personal loan - yet one of your first responses in the BTCJam listing is:

"    Hi User #007, Nice nick! This BTCJam listing is an investment in the form of a business loan. Though it is highly unlikely, there is always a possibility that some sort of freak accident may occur that results in ZIGGAP failing. There are very few things that I can think of that could cause this to happen, besides something extreme like an unexpected death. However, since we are a multi-person team even in the event of a death the rest of the team could take over and continue the business. In the highly unlikely event that the business model itself fails we can always revert back to what we were doing with QuickBitcoins.net, which has been proven to be successful. Regardless the business would continue and the loan would be paid back."

That clearly states that a team/company has responsibility for repayment, NOT an individual.  Are you seriously saying you think your response there could be read as the loan being to a single person?

Is this "initial owner" - with the interesting middle names of "and Stormy" also schizophrenic - referring to himself as "we are a multi-person team"?  If it was a personal loan then only the individual borrowing would have responsibility to repay.

[poly]

"A loan FOR a business is not the same thing as a loan TO a business."

It's a loan for ziggap, but not taken on behalf of the company. Retroactive change? Genuine intentions? You be the judge.

[ZIGGAP]

ZIGGAP still owes people on BTCJAM over 900 bitcoins.

Links? / OP care to comment on this?

The initial owner of ZIGGAP did take out that loan to start the company, however that loan was taken out by HIM and not by the company. The funds from this IPO are for the company, and not for him. Ergo the funds from this IPO are not going to be used to pay the loan.

So someone else started Ziggap and has now sold it - and you (new owners) didn't take on the loan?
How do we know you won't sell it again - and this time the next owners won't take on paying dividends to the shares?

Once a company has skipped on its commitments once it's hard to have confidence it won't do it again - especially when there's no record anywhere I can see of a change of ownership (i.e. for all we know the 'new' owners could be same as the 'old' ones - and the change of ownership just an excuse to default on the loan).  This really should have been explained in your OP - rather than dragged into the light by someone else later.

Who said the company changed ownership? Right now this account is speaking as the company which is composed of a team of individuals. Who has skipped on any commitments? Is the loan behind? Or late? Or defaulted?

The point that I'm trying to make is that all personal assets or liabilities and company assets or liabilities are kept strictly separate from each other at all times. The owner of ZIGGAP took that loan, not ZIGGAP. ZIGGAP is composed of multiple individuals but was started by one individual.

Well what you say here doesn't match what was said in the BTCJam listing.

It's listed there as a business loan not a personal loan.

And there's NOT an "initial owner" - it says "Ryan and Stormy Schreiber," : or are "and Stormy" the two middle names of the owner?  If there are two people, one named Ryan and the other Stormy then which of these is the "initial owner" who has responsibility for the loan?  And does the other one know that he was never one of the owners?

Your (if it's you) responses to questions there further make it clear that the loan is to a business not an individual - discussing things such as what happens if the business fails.

Now it may well be that you intend to honour the debt and are now trying to CONVERT it into a personal loan: but spinning it as though it was always a personal loan (albeit used to invest in a business) just doesn't wash.

A loan FOR a business is not the same thing as a loan TO a business. How could Ryan or Stormy have taken a loan AS a business when the loan was used to create the business? It didn't exist before that.

Do you see how there are first and last names up there on the loan, but there are none anywhere on the IPO documentation or the website?

SO who was the "initial owner"?  

You claim it was a personal loan - yet one of your first responses in the BTCJam listing is:

"    Hi User #007, Nice nick! This BTCJam listing is an investment in the form of a business loan. Though it is highly unlikely, there is always a possibility that some sort of freak accident may occur that results in ZIGGAP failing. There are very few things that I can think of that could cause this to happen, besides something extreme like an unexpected death. However, since we are a multi-person team even in the event of a death the rest of the team could take over and continue the business. In the highly unlikely event that the business model itself fails we can always revert back to what we were doing with QuickBitcoins.net, which has been proven to be successful. Regardless the business would continue and the loan would be paid back."

That clearly states that a team/company has responsibility for repayment, NOT an individual.  Are you seriously saying you think your response there could be read as the loan being to a single person?

Is this "initial owner" - with the interesting middle names of "and Stormy" also schizophrenic - referring to himself as "we are a multi-person team"?  If it was a personal loan then only the individual borrowing would have responsibility to repay.

Ryan and Stormy Schreiber are two people. They are a married couple who for all intents and purposes are one financial unit. There are other additional members of the team as well. These include a primary developer, a designer, payment processing partners, and so on.

[Deprived]

ZIGGAP still owes people on BTCJAM over 900 bitcoins.

Links? / OP care to comment on this?

The initial owner of ZIGGAP did take out that loan to start the company, however that loan was taken out by HIM and not by the company. The funds from this IPO are for the company, and not for him. Ergo the funds from this IPO are not going to be used to pay the loan.

So someone else started Ziggap and has now sold it - and you (new owners) didn't take on the loan?
How do we know you won't sell it again - and this time the next owners won't take on paying dividends to the shares?

Once a company has skipped on its commitments once it's hard to have confidence it won't do it again - especially when there's no record anywhere I can see of a change of ownership (i.e. for all we know the 'new' owners could be same as the 'old' ones - and the change of ownership just an excuse to default on the loan).  This really should have been explained in your OP - rather than dragged into the light by someone else later.

Who said the company changed ownership? Right now this account is speaking as the company which is composed of a team of individuals. Who has skipped on any commitments? Is the loan behind? Or late? Or defaulted?

The point that I'm trying to make is that all personal assets or liabilities and company assets or liabilities are kept strictly separate from each other at all times. The owner of ZIGGAP took that loan, not ZIGGAP. ZIGGAP is composed of multiple individuals but was started by one individual.

Well what you say here doesn't match what was said in the BTCJam listing.

It's listed there as a business loan not a personal loan.

And there's NOT an "initial owner" - it says "Ryan and Stormy Schreiber," : or are "and Stormy" the two middle names of the owner?  If there are two people, one named Ryan and the other Stormy then which of these is the "initial owner" who has responsibility for the loan?  And does the other one know that he was never one of the owners?

Your (if it's you) responses to questions there further make it clear that the loan is to a business not an individual - discussing things such as what happens if the business fails.

Now it may well be that you intend to honour the debt and are now trying to CONVERT it into a personal loan: but spinning it as though it was always a personal loan (albeit used to invest in a business) just doesn't wash.

A loan FOR a business is not the same thing as a loan TO a business. How could Ryan or Stormy have taken a loan AS a business when the loan was used to create the business? It didn't exist before that.

Do you see how there are first and last names up there on the loan, but there are none anywhere on the IPO documentation or the website?

SO who was the "initial owner"?  

You claim it was a personal loan - yet one of your first responses in the BTCJam listing is:

"    Hi User #007, Nice nick! This BTCJam listing is an investment in the form of a business loan. Though it is highly unlikely, there is always a possibility that some sort of freak accident may occur that results in ZIGGAP failing. There are very few things that I can think of that could cause this to happen, besides something extreme like an unexpected death. However, since we are a multi-person team even in the event of a death the rest of the team could take over and continue the business. In the highly unlikely event that the business model itself fails we can always revert back to what we were doing with QuickBitcoins.net, which has been proven to be successful. Regardless the business would continue and the loan would be paid back."

That clearly states that a team/company has responsibility for repayment, NOT an individual.  Are you seriously saying you think your response there could be read as the loan being to a single person?

Is this "initial owner" - with the interesting middle names of "and Stormy" also schizophrenic - referring to himself as "we are a multi-person team"?  If it was a personal loan then only the individual borrowing would have responsibility to repay.

Ryan and Stormy are Husband and Wife. They file joint tax returns, live in the same house, and for all intents and purposes are a single financial unit.

The main point is that throughout the BTCJam listing it is portrayed as a loan to a business not to an individual - to the extent that even after "an unexpected death" the loan would be repaid (it's unstated but reasonable to assume that even after an expected death it would as well).  Now the argument could be made that this was just explaining how the business would continue - rather than how the loan would be repaid - however, were this a personal loan then:

1.  It should clearly have be stated that the loan is NOT to Ziggap but to a (specified) individual.
2.  Instead of discussing how the business would avoid failure, the focus should have been on how the individual would repay IF the business failed (which is irrelevant if the loan is to a business - but totally relevant if the loan is to an individual).

[ZIGGAP]

The initial release was a blazing success, and the next release is tomorrow.

Please note that the market demand is starting to grow above the expected next release price. There are already several walls growing. This means that you might have to place your bids higher than .0001 if you want to get them filled.

[velacreations]

The initial release was a blazing success, and the next release is tomorrow.

Please note that the market demand is starting to grow above the expected next release price. There are already several walls growing. This means that you might have to place your bids higher than .0001 if you want to get them filled.

how many shares will be in tomorrows release?

[Ukyo]

The initial release was a blazing success, and the next release is tomorrow.

Please note that the market demand is starting to grow above the expected next release price. There are already several walls growing. This means that you might have to place your bids higher than .0001 if you want to get them filled.

how many shares will be in tomorrows release?

He had said 5mil.

The first 10 million sold out in 60 minutes.

The next 5 million will go live 'sometime Wednesday' depending on the available time frame. As Wednesday gets closer this time will be specified.

The 5 million will be sold at a tentative rate of 0.0001 per share, depending on market demand. This means that any higher priced orders will get filled first, on a first come first serve basis automatically by BitFunder.

Should the 5 million not get sold within 24 hours of posting, any future sales will be delayed until I have determined the market is ready.

Any further share releases have no timeline or price determined as of yet.

[velacreations]

He had said 5mil.

thanks, I didn't see that.

[ZIGGAP]

The time of the next release has been specified to sometime Wednesday afternoon.

[velacreations]

The time of the next release has been specified to sometime Wednesday afternoon.

what time zone?

[ZIGGAP]

The time of the next release has been specified to sometime Wednesday afternoon.

what time zone?

Central

[Monster Tent]

ZIGGAP still owes people on BTCJAM over 900 bitcoins.

Links? / OP care to comment on this?

The initial owner of ZIGGAP did take out that loan to start the company, however that loan was taken out by HIM and not by the company. The funds from this IPO are for the company, and not for him. Ergo the funds from this IPO are not going to be used to pay the loan.

So someone else started Ziggap and has now sold it - and you (new owners) didn't take on the loan?
How do we know you won't sell it again - and this time the next owners won't take on paying dividends to the shares?

Once a company has skipped on its commitments once it's hard to have confidence it won't do it again - especially when there's no record anywhere I can see of a change of ownership (i.e. for all we know the 'new' owners could be same as the 'old' ones - and the change of ownership just an excuse to default on the loan).  This really should have been explained in your OP - rather than dragged into the light by someone else later.

The same bitcoin-otc identity is being used on both the loan and in this IPO.

From BTCJAM:
Credentials
OTC: aethero
Forum: ZIGGAP

I hardly need to point out the sad history of bitcoin companies which get sold and then suffer a catastrophic failure. There is also the  action of handing over the user data to a new owner without informing the customers.

Looks like they sold all the IPO shares so it doesnt really matter but just from a few things Ive discovered here I would avoid using their site and/or investing in it. Theres too many red flags.

[Deprived]

ZIGGAP still owes people on BTCJAM over 900 bitcoins.

Links? / OP care to comment on this?

The initial owner of ZIGGAP did take out that loan to start the company, however that loan was taken out by HIM and not by the company. The funds from this IPO are for the company, and not for him. Ergo the funds from this IPO are not going to be used to pay the loan.

So someone else started Ziggap and has now sold it - and you (new owners) didn't take on the loan?
How do we know you won't sell it again - and this time the next owners won't take on paying dividends to the shares?

Once a company has skipped on its commitments once it's hard to have confidence it won't do it again - especially when there's no record anywhere I can see of a change of ownership (i.e. for all we know the 'new' owners could be same as the 'old' ones - and the change of ownership just an excuse to default on the loan).  This really should have been explained in your OP - rather than dragged into the light by someone else later.

The same bitcoin-otc identity is being used on both the loan and in this IPO.

From BTCJAM:
Credentials
OTC: aethero
Forum: ZIGGAP

I hardly need to point out the sad history of bitcoin companies which get sold and then suffer a catastrophic failure. There is also the  action of handing over the user data to a new owner without informing the customers.

Looks like they sold all the IPO shares so it doesnt really matter but just from a few things Ive discovered here I would avoid using their site and/or investing in it. Theres too many red flags.

Nah, the company wasn't sold at all.  I got that impression from his talk of an "original owner" - as though there'd been a subsequent owner prior to the IPO.

But still amusing how he claims a loan defined as a business loan and taken out in the name of ZIGGAP was somehow a personal loan to one of the multiple individuals/team referred to in the loan description and discussion.

What seems to have happened is they tried raising funds via a loan on BTCJam, it wasn't selling out fast enough so they split it into two loans - one of which got filled.  They then abandoned trying to fill the second loan and did this IPO instead and are now trying to reclassify the loan as a personal loan.  Reclassing the loan as personal one makes little odds so long as it's paid - and with no assets declared for the company they can strip its existing wallets to repay it (which is why it's always a gamble investing in a company that doesn't produce ANY accounts whatsoever prior to IPO - you can quite easily be buying something with zero assets).

The rush to grab funds whilst giving minimal information is always a red flag to me.  Though it by no means always means scam - just means they want cash before people dig too deep or have the time (or information) to do proper math.