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Author Topic: Is VCash the most scalable crypto around?  (Read 2278 times)
bigfryguy (OP)
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June 13, 2016, 10:16:10 PM
 #1

John Connor claims:

"You don't prevent it. Blockchain's have no end, only a beginning. Incentive Nodes and volunteers host the blockchain. Removing the blockchain from end user computers is how we can scale to millions of nodes without so much as a hiccup. ZeroLedger coded directly into the core code means it can be deployed anywhere including to embedded devices and microchips.

This combined with the Autonomous block size means we never have think about scalability again.  That said we are currently the most scalable cryptocurrency codebase in existence. "

and here is the guantlet thrown down:

 " Feel free to write code to stress test the network and debunk it's scalability and we can re-open this topic and examine the results. :cool:"

can someone prove this otherwise?
 

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June 13, 2016, 10:18:59 PM
 #2

I have no idea about the actual question but I have a hard time respecting a coin with such a terrible win wallet.

Not your keys, not your coins!
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June 13, 2016, 10:58:36 PM
Last edit: June 14, 2016, 12:04:54 AM by haendehochueberfall
 #3

Crypto doesn't scale because of latency and bandwidth. Anyone who tells you different is a scammer.
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June 13, 2016, 11:06:45 PM
 #4

I'm surprised it's not more of a hot topic considering most legit projects want mainstream use in some shape or form.  

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June 14, 2016, 12:03:19 AM
 #5

Block chains can't scale without centralization...period.  Anyone that says otherwise is arguing against CAP theorem which is an effect of the speed of light limit.

Side chains are nasty hacks that add more problems than they solve, as is the lightning network, segwit and all the other "work arounds".  

This is a debate I've had many times and I spent a long time looking for solutions back in 2012-2013 before realizing the obvious.

A block chain is "a single threaded process", if you want more performance/scalability the only thing you can do is add more processing power per node, which raises the barrier to entry and reduces the number of nodes doing the actual processing (centralization).

The only way to increase scalability to 10,000 tps and beyond and maintain decentralization is to add parallelism to the processing of transactions, and drop the block chain based ledger structure. We're the only project that does that and has it functional today.  

Eth is also looking at something similar, but they are 2+ years away from it as of today and it has limitations due to it being block chain based shards.

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June 14, 2016, 12:05:32 AM
 #6

I'm surprised it's not more of a hot topic considering most legit projects want mainstream use in some shape or form.  

It's all smokes and mirrors did you not know?
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June 14, 2016, 12:09:04 AM
 #7

Block chains can't scale without centralization...period.  Side chains are nasty hacks that add more problems than they solve, as is the lightning network, segwit and all the other "work arounds".  Anyone that says otherwise is arguing against CAP theorem which is an effect of the speed of light limit.

This is a debate I've had many times and I spent a long time looking for solutions back in 2012-2013 before realizing the obvious.

A block chain is "a single threaded process", if you want more performance/scalability the only thing you can do is add more processing power per node, which raises the barrier to entry and reduces the number of nodes doing the actual processing (centralization).

The only way to increase scalability to 10,000 tps and beyond and maintain decentralization is to add parallelism to the processing of transactions, and drop the block chain based ledger structure. We're the only project that does that and has it functional today. 

Eth is also looking at something similar, but they are 2+ years away from it as of today and it has limitations due to it being block chain based shards.

I keep saving my btc for this....but it is taking a long time to release. When can I get some emunie ??

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June 14, 2016, 12:12:39 AM
 #8

Block chains can't scale without centralization...period.  Side chains are nasty hacks that add more problems than they solve, as is the lightning network, segwit and all the other "work arounds".  Anyone that says otherwise is arguing against CAP theorem which is an effect of the speed of light limit.

This is a debate I've had many times and I spent a long time looking for solutions back in 2012-2013 before realizing the obvious.

A block chain is "a single threaded process", if you want more performance/scalability the only thing you can do is add more processing power per node, which raises the barrier to entry and reduces the number of nodes doing the actual processing (centralization).

The only way to increase scalability to 10,000 tps and beyond and maintain decentralization is to add parallelism to the processing of transactions, and drop the block chain based ledger structure. We're the only project that does that and has it functional today. 

Eth is also looking at something similar, but they are 2+ years away from it as of today and it has limitations due to it being block chain based shards.

I keep saving my btc for this....but it is taking a long time to release. When can I get some emunie ??

Why is cancer taking so long for a cure? Smiley

Same question, same answer.  It's hard work on a difficult problem and takes time to solve.

If it was easy, there would already be a cure for cancer (lets leave the conspiracies at the door) and a scalable, efficient, stable crypto platform Smiley

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June 14, 2016, 12:24:19 AM
 #9

Block chains can't scale without centralization...period.  Side chains are nasty hacks that add more problems than they solve, as is the lightning network, segwit and all the other "work arounds".  Anyone that says otherwise is arguing against CAP theorem which is an effect of the speed of light limit.

This is a debate I've had many times and I spent a long time looking for solutions back in 2012-2013 before realizing the obvious.

A block chain is "a single threaded process", if you want more performance/scalability the only thing you can do is add more processing power per node, which raises the barrier to entry and reduces the number of nodes doing the actual processing (centralization).

The only way to increase scalability to 10,000 tps and beyond and maintain decentralization is to add parallelism to the processing of transactions, and drop the block chain based ledger structure. We're the only project that does that and has it functional today. 

Eth is also looking at something similar, but they are 2+ years away from it as of today and it has limitations due to it being block chain based shards.

I keep saving my btc for this....but it is taking a long time to release. When can I get some emunie ??

Why is cancer taking so long for a cure? Smiley

Same question, same answer.  It's hard work on a difficult problem and takes time to solve.

If it was easy, there would already be a cure for cancer (lets leave the conspiracies at the door) and a scalable, efficient, stable crypto platform Smiley

Okay, I hear  you Smiley

bigfryguy (OP)
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June 14, 2016, 12:38:33 AM
 #10

Block chains can't scale without centralization...period.  Anyone that says otherwise is arguing against CAP theorem which is an effect of the speed of light limit.

Side chains are nasty hacks that add more problems than they solve, as is the lightning network, segwit and all the other "work arounds".  

This is a debate I've had many times and I spent a long time looking for solutions back in 2012-2013 before realizing the obvious.

A block chain is "a single threaded process", if you want more performance/scalability the only thing you can do is add more processing power per node, which raises the barrier to entry and reduces the number of nodes doing the actual processing (centralization).

The only way to increase scalability to 10,000 tps and beyond and maintain decentralization is to add parallelism to the processing of transactions, and drop the block chain based ledger structure. We're the only project that does that and has it functional today.  

Eth is also looking at something similar, but they are 2+ years away from it as of today and it has limitations due to it being block chain based shards.


isnt that what zerotime did?

I may be wrong, and you can feel free to test the Vcash network to prove me wrong, but zeroledger with zerotime parallelism is exactly what John has done!!!!

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June 14, 2016, 12:55:53 AM
 #11

Block chains can't scale without centralization...period.  Anyone that says otherwise is arguing against CAP theorem which is an effect of the speed of light limit.

Side chains are nasty hacks that add more problems than they solve, as is the lightning network, segwit and all the other "work arounds".  

This is a debate I've had many times and I spent a long time looking for solutions back in 2012-2013 before realizing the obvious.

A block chain is "a single threaded process", if you want more performance/scalability the only thing you can do is add more processing power per node, which raises the barrier to entry and reduces the number of nodes doing the actual processing (centralization).

The only way to increase scalability to 10,000 tps and beyond and maintain decentralization is to add parallelism to the processing of transactions, and drop the block chain based ledger structure. We're the only project that does that and has it functional today.  

Eth is also looking at something similar, but they are 2+ years away from it as of today and it has limitations due to it being block chain based shards.


isnt that what zerotime did?

I may be wrong, and you can feel free to test the Vcash network to prove me wrong, but zeroledger with zerotime parallelism is exactly what John has done!!!!

I beg to differ.  If it is using a block chain its a completely different solution for a completely different problem.

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June 14, 2016, 01:24:49 AM
 #12

Block chains can't scale without centralization...period.  Anyone that says otherwise is arguing against CAP theorem which is an effect of the speed of light limit.

Side chains are nasty hacks that add more problems than they solve, as is the lightning network, segwit and all the other "work arounds".  

This is a debate I've had many times and I spent a long time looking for solutions back in 2012-2013 before realizing the obvious.

A block chain is "a single threaded process", if you want more performance/scalability the only thing you can do is add more processing power per node, which raises the barrier to entry and reduces the number of nodes doing the actual processing (centralization).

The only way to increase scalability to 10,000 tps and beyond and maintain decentralization is to add parallelism to the processing of transactions, and drop the block chain based ledger structure. We're the only project that does that and has it functional today.  

Eth is also looking at something similar, but they are 2+ years away from it as of today and it has limitations due to it being block chain based shards.

I will first admit I am no expert on blockchain technology or have any intimate deep knowledge on the subject. I am only lowly cryptocurrency enthusiast. However I believe John's explains the network implementation of XVC in the whitepaper. I only mention this because it seems relevant to your post. 
     

bigfryguy (OP)
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June 14, 2016, 01:28:30 AM
 #13

Block chains can't scale without centralization...period.  Anyone that says otherwise is arguing against CAP theorem which is an effect of the speed of light limit.

Side chains are nasty hacks that add more problems than they solve, as is the lightning network, segwit and all the other "work arounds".  

This is a debate I've had many times and I spent a long time looking for solutions back in 2012-2013 before realizing the obvious.

A block chain is "a single threaded process", if you want more performance/scalability the only thing you can do is add more processing power per node, which raises the barrier to entry and reduces the number of nodes doing the actual processing (centralization).

The only way to increase scalability to 10,000 tps and beyond and maintain decentralization is to add parallelism to the processing of transactions, and drop the block chain based ledger structure. We're the only project that does that and has it functional today.  

Eth is also looking at something similar, but they are 2+ years away from it as of today and it has limitations due to it being block chain based shards.


isnt that what zerotime did?

I may be wrong, and you can feel free to test the Vcash network to prove me wrong, but zeroledger with zerotime parallelism is exactly what John has done!!!!

I beg to differ.  If it is using a block chain its a completely different solution for a completely different problem.

I have a feeling your reply was off the cuff, and you havent done any research into what John has done.

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June 14, 2016, 01:36:41 AM
 #14

Block chains can't scale without centralization...period.  Anyone that says otherwise is arguing against CAP theorem which is an effect of the speed of light limit.

Side chains are nasty hacks that add more problems than they solve, as is the lightning network, segwit and all the other "work arounds".  

This is a debate I've had many times and I spent a long time looking for solutions back in 2012-2013 before realizing the obvious.

A block chain is "a single threaded process", if you want more performance/scalability the only thing you can do is add more processing power per node, which raises the barrier to entry and reduces the number of nodes doing the actual processing (centralization).

The only way to increase scalability to 10,000 tps and beyond and maintain decentralization is to add parallelism to the processing of transactions, and drop the block chain based ledger structure. We're the only project that does that and has it functional today.  

Eth is also looking at something similar, but they are 2+ years away from it as of today and it has limitations due to it being block chain based shards.


isnt that what zerotime did?

I may be wrong, and you can feel free to test the Vcash network to prove me wrong, but zeroledger with zerotime parallelism is exactly what John has done!!!!

I beg to differ.  If it is using a block chain its a completely different solution for a completely different problem.

I have a feeling your reply was off the cuff, and you havent done any research into what John has done.

Not at all, I don't have to do any research into what John has done because Vcash uses a block chain.  I've done more research into scaling a block chain than likely anyone in this industry....thus, I am able to make judgement without getting into the project specific details.

The hint is in your original post - Removing the blockchain from end user computers is how we can scale to millions of nodes without so much as a hiccup.

Scaling to millions of nodes via some form of SPV protocol is not the same as scaling transactional load and maintaining decentralization.  Which is the point I'm trying to make here, there are different flavours of scalability...some having further reaching benefits than others.

Also, Bitcoin can easily scale to millions of SPV driven nodes...it probably does so everyday, so its not really anything new.

Now show me a block chain / platform that can scale to millions of nodes, where all of those nodes are providing transactional processing and the network as a whole is reliably processing 10,000+ tps in a decentralized manner...and you'll have my attention Smiley

bigfryguy (OP)
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June 14, 2016, 05:02:15 AM
 #15

Not at all, I don't have to do any research into what John has done because Vcash uses a block chain.  I've done more research into scaling a block chain than likely anyone in this industry....thus, I am able to make judgement without getting into the project specific details.

The hint is in your original post - Removing the blockchain from end user computers is how we can scale to millions of nodes without so much as a hiccup.



I think you should read up on zeroledger, zerotime, and how John has used the two with an adaptive block size to do just what you have described.


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June 15, 2016, 03:33:52 AM
 #16

out of curiosity. how much would it cost to run a full scale TPS test on Vcash?

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June 15, 2016, 06:26:25 AM
Last edit: June 15, 2016, 07:12:05 AM by iamnotback
 #17

Is VCash the most scalable crypto around?

No.

Crypto doesn't scale because of latency and bandwidth. Anyone who tells you different is a scammer.

True for Satoshi's design. Other designs are feasible.

Block chains can't scale without centralization...period.  Anyone that says otherwise is arguing against CAP theorem which is an effect of the speed of light limit.

Correct but incorrect.

Please note that centralization of control is orthogonal to other aspects of centralization. When we say 'decentralized', what we really mean is decentralization of control.

And that is the strongest hint I have ever provided about my design.

Side chains are nasty hacks that add more problems than they solve, as is the lightning network, segwit and all the other "work arounds".

Agreed. They are Rube Goldberg designs.

Of egregious note, is that SegWit delegates validation to centralized nodes who then have control over which transactions are accepted, thus very easy to implement the 666 ChainAnchor plan from MIT. And SegWit involves trust without verification of validation, thus puts Nash equilibrium on more shaky foundation wherein we trust centralization, i.e. Blockstream is moving Bitcoin towards a fiat system. It appears the Chinese mining cartel and Blockstream are in bed together because you can note that the Chinese cartel used the lame and technically incorrect excuse that the Great Firewall of China prevented them from approving larger block size increases of Bitcoin XT and Classic. But what is really going on, is as explained in my discussion with Professor Jorge Stolfi, that the Chinese cartel wants to be able to control the block size increase so as to maximize the equation for transaction fees.

How do you calculate that Blockstream is for small blocks  Huh

Blockstream is for making sure they and the Chinese mining cartel control how fast the block size increases, so they can squeeze maximum transactions fees that the market will bear. You could read the Reddit discussion between Professor Jorge Stolfi and TPTB_need_war, which explained this.

And SegWit is all about centralization of validation, so that we get a 666 enslavement system. Do you think the powers-that-be invested $70 million in Blockstream for no reason. Come on. You don't think (Mr. ZIRP and Russian oligarchy maker) Larry Summers (who is on the board of 21 Inc.), Peter Thiel (BitPay, gifted $100k to Vitalik @ Ethereum, etc), and other banksters elite are in on that. Come on.

There is only one possible way you defeat those bastards. And that is to make something so popular, that can't be centralized. Once it is very popular, they will have a difficult time taking it away from the people.

Even the French presidential candidate Le Pen, is advocating banning Bitcoin because she has realized AnonyMint was correct in 2013 when he wrote Bitcoin : The Digital Kill Switch:

http://www.coindesk.com/french-presidential-hopeful-bitcoin-ban/

Some people are starting to realize that Bitcoin is a Trojan Horse planted to force nation-states off of cash and into a digital enslavement.



This is a debate I've had many times and I spent a long time looking for solutions back in 2012-2013 before realizing the obvious.

A block chain is "a single threaded process", if you want more performance/scalability the only thing you can do is add more processing power per node, which raises the barrier to entry and reduces the number of nodes doing the actual processing (centralization).

The only way to increase scalability to 10,000 tps and beyond and maintain decentralization is to add parallelism to the processing of transactions, and drop the block chain based ledger structure. We're the only project that does that and has it functional today.  

Eth is also looking at something similar, but they are 2+ years away from it as of today and it has limitations due to it being block chain based shards.

Problem is that sharding destroys Nash equilibrium if ever any state transition (e.g. transaction) from two or more different shards needs to be combined, because the two or more shards need to validate the history of each other else they rely on trust which destroys Nash equilibrium. But if they must validate each other, then they are back to the single-threaded process where all full nodes validate all transactions. You could try to isolate histories of individual transactions within shards (I suspect this is what eMunie does?) but it won't require too much cross-shard transactions before most of the history of each involved shard has to be validated.

Thus I have never viewed sharding as a workable solution to scaling validation (which is the design error of Ethereum's coming Casper). Instead I viewed ephemeral sharding as an excellent solution for the bandwidth and latency aspects of scaling. Unfortunately I must be vague else I will give too many hints about my design before it is released.

On top of all that, control must be decentralized.

I believe I have already the perfect design for a block chain. I am in implementation mode.
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June 15, 2016, 06:36:15 AM
 #18

The skills of John Connor are beginning to scare me a bit, even compared to things like Ethereum.

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June 15, 2016, 06:44:56 AM
 #19

 
The skills of John Connor are beginning to scare me a bit, even compared to things like Ethereum.

I'm scared of him too--is it true that he came from the future to tell Monero Devs about a bug they fixed in the past? Talk about bending the time/logic continuum.

Anyone from V-land want to dig into what Fuserleer and not-anonmint have said about the topic of scalability--or is this anbother noob-trap that refuses to talk honestly and openly about what the technology can and can't do?

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June 15, 2016, 06:55:33 AM
 #20

The skills of John Connor are beginning to scare me a bit, even compared to things like Ethereum.

John Connor's work in this space is astounding (mind blowing). His work imho has made bitcoin's promises into reality. John is a master cryptographer/coder and probably the best in this space.   

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