MEMBERS OF ETHEREUM TO RETURN ETC TO DAO INVESTORS PETITION

[szachta]

I signed the petition.How wil be the return.

[roselee]

If it's illegal then call the police. They are not obliged to give you anything. Ethereum also suffered loses because of the DAO, with it's value going to 50% of what it was. I don't ask for their money, do i ? You stupid fuck.

i guess you are right one of the DAO Holders should report to the police. i am certain they get there ETC back .

[NorthPixel]

If it's illegal then call the police. They are not obliged to give you anything. Ethereum also suffered loses because of the DAO, with it's value going to 50% of what it was. I don't ask for their money, do i ? You stupid fuck.

i guess you are right one of the DAO Holders should report to the police. i am certain they get there ETC back .

The question is which police force is responsible for investigation and catching the thief? The FBI or Chinese police?

[Das]

The FBI and the Chinese police should work together to proffer a solution, but I believe the issue on ground tilts more towards the Chinese police than the FBI.

[roselee]

18 millions dollars isn't a joke....
IF DAO holders wanted to sue - they could put up a really good case and it would then tie alot of things into the mix about using a new chain with an old brand. . I will be surprised if a whale doesn;t sue eventually especially if ETC rises in value more.
I won't sue as i am not a whale in by any means.
However i do want whats rightfully mine and if you do to - PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION

Well, then make up your mind. If you're not going to sue then your empty legal threats don't mean anything.

Have you even talked to the van-de-something white hat guy or do you just get the kick out of stirring shit on the intertubes?

What i am  going to say to Van-de Sande.

Me - Hi MR Sande - Did you notice you and your 'white hat' hacker team which you curated still owes DAO Investors over 18 million dollars.

Van de  - No it must of slipped my mind

Me - Oh really, Gee, Thats why you and your chronies havn't updated anybody as to what your doing with the stolen DAO ETC.

Van de - Yes, well alot of things slip my mind , especially when you work for Ethereum

Me -  Yes really tough remembering to update people when you work for Ethereum and the ETC & ETH case has been ongoing for the past month.          
        I mean its only a mere 7.2 million ETC-  So will you give back the ETC?

Van de  -- Well no DAO investor has asked for it back untill now

Me - Well look at the petition



PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION

A lesson in how to make friends and influence people.

Your attitude will always get closed doors. Get your money ready. The only way you'll get this ETC is in court. And I'll be supporting the defense all the way.

A lesson in tying humour into a BS situation.

I won't be in the court room, i'm too small fish to take further action on this but you can have fun supporting the defence if it comes to that.

The purpose of this thread is to raise awareness as so far nobody has come forward with a statement or anything regarding the ETC ( and hopefully get some signatures)

The amount of people on this thread who don't seem to understand that the DAO holders are the victims in this case is astounding. - They rather side with supposed 'white hat' hackers' who has shown no interest so far to return DAO holders rightfully owned stolen ETC. If they have - please post a link to this thread!

yes its unbelievebal what moral those eth fork suporters have.

[roselee]

It has all to do with it you dumbass, because DAO was like a hedge fund, but with NO insurance, no one guaranteed for the investment's safety as in, like " if something bad happens we'll give you our own money " . And the hardfork was only viable because of the 1month lockup period of the DAO funds, otherwise not even that would have been possible.
Being "meant to protect" is not the same as insured money, like if a bank gets robbed doesn't matter much because the money / deposits are insured.
Now that i destroyed your stupid arguments, tell us your mains account on this forum, how many do you have ?

i guess you have no clue of the situation.
if a person says this black hat attack is theft . and they take that as a reason why they destroy integrity of ethereum prefork, it should use this moral standarts for the persons own movements and then the white attack was theft too and they shall return the ether in there to the holders of the dao.

or the dao holders or one should do a police report.
or start a crowdfunding
in the threats i am sure they will suport it
right now 7.5 millions of etc are in the ahnds of the ones that like etc to die .


and if you say they got enough repay with the rollback well they should get there etc too like every other prefork eth holder.

or are there 2 sets of eth holders for you ? they ones that shut up and the ones that are bullied becouse they dont shut up?

[Ned Kelly]

I would suggest that you go ahead with your "legal implications". Don't forget to update this thread with how that works out, e.g. did the lawyers laugh at you immediately or just after they took your money, etc (pun intended).

OP: I want to sue somebody for X million.
Lawyers: Do they owe you?
OP: No, I was paid back what I was owed, but they have something else that's worth so much money and I want it.

You misunderestimate lawyers' agility.

All a lawyer needs is some reasoning-by-analogy that's the kernel of a plausible theory and he's ready to go. If the legal beagle gets the idea that the Ethereum ---> forked Ethereum + Ethereum Classic is like a split of a company into two, called a "spinoff," then he has a theory he can work.

1) Show that every holder of Ethereum before the split block received equal amounts of Ethereum-Fork and Ethereum Classic;
2) Show that Ethereum Classic has a copy of The DAO which contains Ethereum Classic, and that draining this version of The Dao does not touch the Ethereum-Fork DAO's holdings in the least, thus demonstrating that the Ethereum Classic in the ETC-DAO is separate from the Ethereum-Fork held by the "real" DAO;
3) Tie (1) and (2) together by showing that token holders in The DAO pre-fork have equal amounts of The DAO tokens for each blockchain;
4) Drag in the analogy relating the one-blockchain-into-two to a corporate spinoff, for which there are lots of precedents to show that all shareholders in Company X are entitled to their aliquot shares in both company X1 and Company X2;
5) Possibly put an insta-expert on the stand to demonstrate that a) the fork reduced the value of the "real" Ethereum and b) there's a negative correlation between the value of Ethereum-fork and Ethereum Classic, which tightens up the Ethereum-as-corporate-property analogy. [This one might well be superfluous, and it is risky because the insta-expert would be subject to cross-examination.]
6) Demonstrate that The DAO is a creature of the Ethereum blockchain, has no life or value outside of it, and demonstrate that The DAO has value with the Ethereum blockchain - and that The DAO-Classic has value in Ethereum Classic.
7) Conclude by adducing standard company-split precedents that all say that a company which splits owes its shareholders aliquot stakes in both new companies - and demonstrate that this analogy is exact with respect to forked Ethereum and Ethereum Classic.

So yeah, I'd say that a lawyer would take his money.


P.S. I'm no legal beagle myself, but I found this out when two mining-exploration companies were amalgamated into one (which became a producing gold mine, by the way) a long time ago. The two companies were called Golden Giant and Golden Sceptre, and they held deposits next to each other that were amalgamated into a new company called Hemlo Gold. As part of the re-org, which started off by merging Giant and Sceptre, each shareholder in each company got stock in three companies: Hemlo Gold, New Golden Giant and New Golden Sceptre. Never mind that the last two went nowhere; each shareholder was still entitled to a piece of all three because otherwise some corporate property from the temporarily-merged Giant-Sceptre company would have been unaccounted for.

The only risk with the above theory comes with the kernel analogizing a cryptocurrency to a corporation. But a capable lawyer could adduce the IRS ruling that cryptocurrency is property, and hope that the judge carries the ball the rest of the way by deciding that the analogy to corporate property is legally sound. It's not a sure thing, but it's a good-enough theory for a lawyer to take his money and sleep soundly at night.

But what would they charge for that??? Imagine the research involved. Better start a crowdfund/ICO for legal costs!

I think Nxtblg made a valid point. And given ETC price right now, it's a several mil in white hat DAO. There is a real possibility of lawsuit against Etherium Foundation, if they decided to keep these money for themselves.

[Minecache]

I would suggest that you go ahead with your "legal implications". Don't forget to update this thread with how that works out, e.g. did the lawyers laugh at you immediately or just after they took your money, etc (pun intended).

OP: I want to sue somebody for X million.
Lawyers: Do they owe you?
OP: No, I was paid back what I was owed, but they have something else that's worth so much money and I want it.

You misunderestimate lawyers' agility.

All a lawyer needs is some reasoning-by-analogy that's the kernel of a plausible theory and he's ready to go. If the legal beagle gets the idea that the Ethereum ---> forked Ethereum + Ethereum Classic is like a split of a company into two, called a "spinoff," then he has a theory he can work.

1) Show that every holder of Ethereum before the split block received equal amounts of Ethereum-Fork and Ethereum Classic;
2) Show that Ethereum Classic has a copy of The DAO which contains Ethereum Classic, and that draining this version of The Dao does not touch the Ethereum-Fork DAO's holdings in the least, thus demonstrating that the Ethereum Classic in the ETC-DAO is separate from the Ethereum-Fork held by the "real" DAO;
3) Tie (1) and (2) together by showing that token holders in The DAO pre-fork have equal amounts of The DAO tokens for each blockchain;
4) Drag in the analogy relating the one-blockchain-into-two to a corporate spinoff, for which there are lots of precedents to show that all shareholders in Company X are entitled to their aliquot shares in both company X1 and Company X2;
5) Possibly put an insta-expert on the stand to demonstrate that a) the fork reduced the value of the "real" Ethereum and b) there's a negative correlation between the value of Ethereum-fork and Ethereum Classic, which tightens up the Ethereum-as-corporate-property analogy. [This one might well be superfluous, and it is risky because the insta-expert would be subject to cross-examination.]
6) Demonstrate that The DAO is a creature of the Ethereum blockchain, has no life or value outside of it, and demonstrate that The DAO has value with the Ethereum blockchain - and that The DAO-Classic has value in Ethereum Classic.
7) Conclude by adducing standard company-split precedents that all say that a company which splits owes its shareholders aliquot stakes in both new companies - and demonstrate that this analogy is exact with respect to forked Ethereum and Ethereum Classic.

So yeah, I'd say that a lawyer would take his money.


P.S. I'm no legal beagle myself, but I found this out when two mining-exploration companies were amalgamated into one (which became a producing gold mine, by the way) a long time ago. The two companies were called Golden Giant and Golden Sceptre, and they held deposits next to each other that were amalgamated into a new company called Hemlo Gold. As part of the re-org, which started off by merging Giant and Sceptre, each shareholder in each company got stock in three companies: Hemlo Gold, New Golden Giant and New Golden Sceptre. Never mind that the last two went nowhere; each shareholder was still entitled to a piece of all three because otherwise some corporate property from the temporarily-merged Giant-Sceptre company would have been unaccounted for.

The only risk with the above theory comes with the kernel analogizing a cryptocurrency to a corporation. But a capable lawyer could adduce the IRS ruling that cryptocurrency is property, and hope that the judge carries the ball the rest of the way by deciding that the analogy to corporate property is legally sound. It's not a sure thing, but it's a good-enough theory for a lawyer to take his money and sleep soundly at night.

But what would they charge for that??? Imagine the research involved. Better start a crowdfund/ICO for legal costs!

I think Nxtblg made a valid point. And given ETC price right now, it's a several mil in white hat DAO. There is a real possibility of lawsuit against Etherium Foundation, if they decided to keep these money for themselves.

the EF are not the white hatters. FFS

[Ned Kelly]

the EF are not the white hatters. FFS

Someone above mentioned, he (white hat hacker) is a member of dev team. It's seems that at least he is affiliated with foundation. Anyway, in my opinion foundation should lawyered up. Because, in the case of legal action, it's not matter what you think, it's matter what you can proof in the court of law.

[RussianMiner]

If you want your DAO money back, go to ETH, not ETC

[JUSTDLISK]

As far as i am concerned, you are just begging for money here. The ETC is rightfully theirs, they are free to do what they want with it. They just executed the code, and its not your business what they do with their money now.

You must be joking?

Another noob who doesn't get it.

why don't you actually read some  of the posts here such as by OP , Smargada & Nxtblg.

[StinkyLover]

As far as i am concerned, you are just begging for money here. The ETC is rightfully theirs, they are free to do what they want with it. They just executed the code, and its not your business what they do with their money now.

You must be joking?

Another noob who doesn't get it.

why don't you actually read some  of the posts here such as by OP , Smargada & Nxtblg.

Erm... Who is the noob here?? Did you see the ranking before posting that or are you so full of hopes of free money that you insult anything that comes your way?

[dumana]

If you want your DAO money back, go to ETH, not ETC

That is right. The ETC should be worthless any more. So the hackers will not get a penny. But somebody want the hacker to be rich.

[Minecache]

Interesting!

Alex Van de Sande speaks out on the white hats funds.

Hopefully this draws a line under these rather distasteful demands of the ETC criminal coin supporters:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EthereumClassic/comments/4wnn3k/alex_van_de_sande_uavsa_and_the_rest_of_the_robin/d68wfen

[universe_]

If it's illegal then call the police. They are not obliged to give you anything. Ethereum also suffered loses because of the DAO, with it's value going to 50% of what it was. I don't ask for their money, do i ? You stupid fuck.

i guess you are right one of the DAO Holders should report to the police. i am certain they get there ETC back .

though i dont think that dao users will report it to the police, i think that nothing will happen, though i hope that etc is going to grow pretty huge

[DAOinvestorwantsETC]

Interesting!

Alex Van de Sande speaks out on the white hats funds.

Hopefully this draws a line under these rather distasteful demands of the ETC criminal coin supporters:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EthereumClassic/comments/4wnn3k/alex_van_de_sande_uavsa_and_the_rest_of_the_robin/d68wfen

This is very interesting and i have updated the original thread with a link to this reddit post.
I respect Alex Van De Sande for speaking out and giving clarity of the situation( finally).
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I wouldn't call myself part of the Robin Hood Group, not because I’m afraid of legal consequences or ashamed of it, but because I don’t think I’m worthy of that title. The guys who made the DAO counter attack were able to create attack vectors much more sophisticated than the original attacker developed, and created new ways to twist it so that the original attacker couldn’t counterattack. They set up active running scripts that at some point were constantly draining the dao to 1 wei, to capture any ether the attacker sent to the DAO to set up a new attack. I would never be able to do any of this. While I did a small part in helping the original counterattack, I’ve also been told that since the first attack most of the original group splintered and only a few kept pushing forward. I haven’t participated since that day, I don’t control any of the private keys to any relevant addresses, I had recent contact with them, but since the main goal was accomplish I don’t intend to keep contact and I certainly don’t want to be seen as their spokeperson for the next step..
Also, even the small part I did, I acted as an individual, not as part of the Ethereum Foundation. I never told Vitalik about my plans and when Ming, the Executive Director, asked me about it I refused to tell her, so that the Foundation wouldn’t be in any way implicated or active in this.
Last time I spoke to the White Hat Group about the status they had told me the attacker was able to run off with a big part of the funds and while they had recently won some battles, the funds were far from secure as they were still aware of possible attacks – which is why I didn’t want to make any public comment on that matter, otherwise the attention could jeopardize this whole thing. IMHO part of the reason they were more successful now was because the DAO had less value and was under a lot less scrutiny since the fork, I doubt such attack would be successful had the fork not taken place.
Before you guys talk about what they are going to do with the funds, notice that this group had absolutely no obligation to keep doing what they were doing, yet kept doing it anyway. They worked hard for the fork to happen because they wanted all the DAO investors to be made whole – and they accomplished that – but then the Ethereum Classic community made its central tenet that such a solution was morally wrong and we were all corrupt for doing it. The blackhat hacker tried their best to ruin any chance of counterattack, negotiation or ceasefire) yet I’ve seen posts in this community comparing them to Satoshi Nakamoto. These guys have done what no one else was willing or capable to do, yet they are constantly harassed and whenever I read a question about the White Hat Group’s ETC funds, the first answers usually mention lawsuits or assume malice on their part. I wonder how many DAO token holders today are even the same people who believed the original vision and participated on the launch and how many tokens are currently held simply by people who wanted to buy them for a chance of an arbitrage opportunity. Now, of course, this doesn’t represent the full community, I’ve been in contact with people from the Classic mod team that are trying to change the tone, but my recent experiences on this community haven't helped to change my opinion on it.
To make it completely clear, while I appreciate the irony that the same people who claimed the Dark attacker was the rightful owner because “code is law” are asking the opposite of the white hat attackers, I don’t endorse this idea: my understanding has always been that they would do their best to give the money back to the community, otherwise they would be no better than the black hat.
I do not know what they intend to do now and I learned that the recovery was successful via reddit like everyone else. While I believe they have the best intentions they are also at risk for a lot of legal troubles and costs. On a personal note I’ve lended them DAO tokens for the attack, which I haven’t seen since. I’ll be asking them for the eth-dao to be returned, but I’m donating the etc-dao to them.
My main point is this, they could have washed their hands of all this the day of the fork and let it all be taken by the thieves you applauded. If anything is ever recovered it’s all due to the tireless work of these people. So instead of constantly debating how much the white hats owe you, ask yourself how much you owe the white hats.
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My thoughts on the sentence highlighted in red

They deserve a carrot only IF they return the funds - NOT 18 Million dollars of DAO holders ETC.

[Nxtblg]

But what would they charge for that??? Imagine the research involved. Better start a crowdfund/ICO for legal costs!

Good question.

As I said before and will probably say again, I'm not a lawyer. So, my thinking-as-the-plaintiff's-lawyer is prolly defective in subtle ways.

To gab about the defense side, it occurred to me that there's a two-pronged slam-bang defense that any real lawyer would bring up in the initial interview:

Prong 1: The Good Samaritan defense. The white-hat hacker team had no motive other than to rescue The DAO stakeholders and worked for free during their rescue operation. It's not enough to claim that they did so because they themselves were stakeholders - not as long as they got the exact same aliquot-share reward as someone who occasionally cheered them on at Reddit but otherwise did nothing. In order to impugn this defense, the plaintiff has to prove that they got compensation over and above what they got as DAO stakeholders. To put it bluntly, the plaintiff would have to show that they were either a) paid for the work, which would render the Good-Samaritan part of the defense moot; or b) that they were bribed to do it. Either attempt requires the plaintiff to have evidence; speculation won't do.

Prong 2: "We Haven't Touched The Ethereum Classic Blockchain" defense. This one's intriguing, because a court would have to regard the Ethereum Classic blockchain as a separate entity. If the defense can demonstrate that they haven't touched the Ethereum Classic blockchain, then the plaintiff's job becomes harder. Plaintiff would have to argue that the white-hat-hacker team had an affirmative responsibility to return the Ethereum Classic to the now-Classic-DAO token holders. This could be done, using that corporate-spinoff analogy I riffed on above, but it would have to be done carefully. A judge might well decide that the people who incurred the liability were the dev team behind Ethereum Classic!

In fact, Prong 2 might well suffice on those last grounds.

So a real lawyer for the plaintiff would ask: 1) "Can you prove that the whit-hat hackers received special compensation over and above their share as DAO token holders?" 2) "Can you prove that they messed around with the Ethereum-Classic DAO on or after the time of the hardfork?" If the answer to both is "No," then said lawyer would decline the case.

Or recommend that the plaintiffs sure the devs of Ethereum Classic!

[Hueristic]

If you want your DAO money back, go to ETH, not ETC

It's pure greed, they want both. The funds should be destroyed.

[Minecache]

If you want your DAO money back, go to ETH, not ETC

It's pure greed, they want both. The funds should be destroyed.

Who are 'they'?

[Hueristic]

If you want your DAO money back, go to ETH, not ETC

It's pure greed, they want both. The funds should be destroyed.

Who are 'they'?

I know your not too bright so it's the original DAO holders. Duh