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Author Topic: coinjedi / betsofbitco.in SCAMMERS: Declares "Push" on obvious win for BFL bet  (Read 27292 times)
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April 06, 2013, 09:49:41 PM
 #201

Last 3 trolls seem to be missing the fact that the bet deadline was at the end of April 1, not the start of it.

Oh cool, a brand new explanation. Yes, the word "before" in "before April 1st" is quite ambiguous and should have been defined better.

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April 07, 2013, 12:45:08 AM
 #202

Hey Luke;

I do not care about the bet, wish it would go away and people just learn from it.   I would ask that you answer one question directly though.   While you were at BFL, how many employees did you see?   Were there 22?   Or was it closer to 5?   Please let us know so we can figure out if they can even possible ship anyone beyond the first day of orders.


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April 07, 2013, 02:07:57 AM
 #203

While you were at BFL, how many employees did you see?   Were there 22?   Or was it closer to 5?   Please let us know so we can figure out if they can even possible ship anyone beyond the first day of orders.
There were at least 14 I can think of off-hand.

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April 07, 2013, 02:15:26 AM
 #204

Last 3 trolls seem to be missing the fact that the bet deadline was at the end of April 1, not the start of it.

I have to state that you are wrong on this issue, Luke.

http://betsofbitco.in/help

Quote
What is the difference between deadline and event date?

Deadline day is the last day bets are allowed.
Event day is the day statement refers to.
Deadline must be at least one day, at most four weeks before the event day. All dates refer to end of day Eastern Time.

http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=701

Quote
Info

Opening date: Sept. 23, 2012
Bet deadline: March 4, 2013 end of day Eastern Time
Event date: April 1, 2013 end of day Eastern Time
Category: Technology
Total agree bets: 213.82
Total disagree bets: 334.53
Total weighted agree bets: 233413.233
Total weighted disagree bets: 605930.295

Quote
Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.
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April 07, 2013, 03:07:11 AM
 #205

The bet started on Sept. 23, 2012, hence referring the bet to the only three products available at the time. http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=701

Quote
This bet concerns the 3 Butterfly Labs Bitforce SC products announced here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg966886#msg966886

It's already been proven that the product Luke received was not one of the three available, therefore whatever hashrate was detailed didn't meet ANY advertised hashrate, for there were no specs for it at the time.

Quote
The device must achieve at least 75% of its advertised hashrate.

This bet was up for six months, with many people commenting on its existence. Yet, nary a soul questioned its ambiguousness until after images were released by Luke after the EST midnight deadline.

To be clear, I believe...

1) Luke is not an employee of BFL. This issue is mute in my eyes.

2) BoB does not deserve a scammer tag on this issue alone, but if some other impropriety arises, this episode may weigh heavily on any future issue(s) concerning them.

3) At the moment, BFL doesn't deserve a scammer tag, for to date they have refunded all those that've asked. But, the pressure and vigil eyes must remain on their operation, for a myriad of clues point toward something nefarious is afoot.

4) Monies collected by BFL for pre-orders is currently being used to fund their operation, and that if every single person requested a refund today, not all would receive their money. Furthermore, BFL can declare bankruptcy at any time, thus nobody who has pre-ordered would receive a dime, but everybody in the higher hierarchy of BFL would have lived comfortably during the course of the operation, and probably have funds stashed away, making sure that they'll be able to continue their lifestyle.
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April 07, 2013, 03:17:33 AM
 #206

What a complete bullshit artist.  You can bet people will be staying away from this scam site in droves.
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April 07, 2013, 10:54:05 AM
 #207

coinjedi, would you mind answering this question please:

Is the decision to grade the bet a draw final? Or do you acknowledge the potential to change the decision upon further reflection or if new information related the to bet were to surface?
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April 07, 2013, 10:58:57 AM
 #208

coinjedi, would you mind answering this question please:

Is the decision to grade the bet a draw final? Or do you acknowledge the potential to change the decision upon further reflection or if new information related the to bet were to surface?

As of i know they already refunded people that took part in the bet.... (and did not take a wage out of it)

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April 07, 2013, 12:40:45 PM
 #209

coinjedi, would you mind answering this question please:

Is the decision to grade the bet a draw final? Or do you acknowledge the potential to change the decision upon further reflection or if new information related the to bet were to surface?

As of i know they already refunded people that took part in the bet.... (and did not take a wage out of it)

Ah, yes. That's right. They've already refunded the bettors.

So I guess at this point the only thing they can do as a company is admit that they chose the wrong outcome. 
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April 07, 2013, 01:31:47 PM
 #210

They could also pay the bettors who actually won. They can do this without trying to extract money from the losers. The money would have to come out of BoB's own money, but that's what happens when you make a mistake that causes a shortfall - unless they're insured or this sort of thing.
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April 07, 2013, 02:22:09 PM
 #211

They could also pay the bettors who actually won. They can do this without trying to extract money from the losers. The money would have to come out of BoB's own money, but that's what happens when you make a mistake that causes a shortfall - unless they're insured or this sort of thing.

Yes, that would be the moral thing to do.
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April 07, 2013, 07:06:17 PM
 #212

While you were at BFL, how many employees did you see?   Were there 22?   Or was it closer to 5?   Please let us know so we can figure out if they can even possible ship anyone beyond the first day of orders.
There were at least 14 I can think of off-hand.
thanks.   that is helpful.  just trying to model something out.


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                `+███████#,               
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April 08, 2013, 03:56:34 AM
 #213

They could also pay the bettors who actually won. They can do this without trying to extract money from the losers. The money would have to come out of BoB's own money, but that's what happens when you make a mistake that causes a shortfall - unless they're insured or this sort of thing.

They could admit they welshed on the bet, stole the winners' money, and gave the winners' money to the losers.  That's what they actually did.  They stole the money from the winners, and gave it to the losers.

Apparently because Puke Jr. is a scamming BFL whore who rigged the bet.
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April 08, 2013, 03:57:34 AM
 #214

Last 3 trolls seem to be missing the fact that the bet deadline was at the end of April 1, not the start of it.

Another blatant lie from a blatant liar.
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April 09, 2013, 11:36:20 AM
 #215

You owe the winners their winnings, but how you'll be able to come up with the money to pay them is anyones' guess.

So long as both sides get paid out as though they won.  Then it would be a great gesture from the site - to pay both sides (not refund, pay out in full) when BFL clearly didn't deliver.  If the site thinks THEY screwed up by offering a flawed bet then, rather obviously, the site should be the one to absorb any financial loss resulting from it.

For the record, there exists precedent to this. BitBet mispaid a bet last month through clerical error. The true winners were repaid, on the house.

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April 09, 2013, 12:24:43 PM
 #216

I think the next big question which I'd like to see addressed is how is it possible that the stunt that Luke Jr. and Josh pulled is not considered an attempt to defraud bettors? It is quite obvious that what they did was premeditated and intended to deceive. And they succeeded in altering the outcome of the bet, costing those who would have won a large amount. The evidence is already out there, and I don't think they deny what they did.

Is it just a matter of someone making an accusation thread? What are the arguments against their actions being consistent with being labeled a 'scammer'?

I for one definitely don't understand why someone like Luke Jr who has personally invested so much in the bitcoin community would risk what he has built over the years. Especially considering he has claimed he was not involved in the bet, meaning he wouldn't not have anything to gain by doing this. Only everything to lose, so that is puzzling to say the least.

I would honestly love to hear a well reasoned argument why the 'claiming to ship, but not actually shipping', and the subsequent financial damage to both the bettors and BoB(despite their failure here, they lost both their commision and reputation) could not be considered an act worthy of a scammer title.
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April 09, 2013, 01:22:17 PM
 #217

So here's a wacky theory.  Luke is obviously borderline sociopath, but perhaps we should be looking at coinjedi/BoB a little more closely. 

When this bet was made, the BTC price was way lower (I haven't checked exactly how low).  It's feasible that the site cashed out those BTC at the time for whatever reason, and the time has now come to settle with the winners.  Oh dear, the price has quadrupled (or whatever) and it now costs way too much to buy back the required coins.   Call it a draw, problem solved Wink

Just throwing it out there.

That's a pretty serious accusation, and one that's probably pretty much impossible to prove either way.

Honestly, I'm starting to think coinjedi just made a really bad mistake, but with no ill intent. It's a lot of money, and ideally the winners should be paid what they should have won. But it's pretty easy to see who caused this whole situation.

I'd be surprised if coinjedi wasn't angry at Luke and Josh for causing him to undermine the integrity of his site, as well as costing him his comission.
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April 09, 2013, 02:35:57 PM
 #218

I for one definitely don't understand why someone like Luke Jr who has personally invested so much in the bitcoin community would risk what he has built over the years. Especially considering he has claimed he was not involved in the bet, meaning he wouldn't not have anything to gain by doing this. Only everything to lose, so that is puzzling to say the least.

You're glossing over the part where he's an idiot.

Sure, an idiot that happened to mull into something great early on. This does not make his mulling "invested a lot". It just makes it some lucky happenstance quickly squandered. Which takes us right back to the above. He didn't invest anything. He's just an idiot.

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April 09, 2013, 03:54:21 PM
 #219

I for one definitely don't understand why someone like Luke Jr who has personally invested so much in the bitcoin community would risk what he has built over the years. Especially considering he has claimed he was not involved in the bet, meaning he wouldn't not have anything to gain by doing this. Only everything to lose, so that is puzzling to say the least.

You're glossing over the part where he's an idiot.

Sure, an idiot that happened to mull into something great early on. This does not make his mulling "invested a lot". It just makes it some lucky happenstance quickly squandered. Which takes us right back to the above. He didn't invest anything. He's just an idiot.

Do you believe him to be stupid enough that he may of thought what he was doing was not fraudulent? That his intent was not to deceive and misrepresent reality while a total of over ~500 BTC was at stake?

I'm genuinely interested what you and others think his intentions were and how it should be handled.

He may of thought that what they were doing was just highly unethical, but not out right fraud?

Luke, do you just not care, or did Josh or someone else mislead you in explaining the situation and what was at stake?

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April 09, 2013, 05:10:15 PM
 #220

Do you believe him to be stupid enough that he may of thought what he was doing was not fraudulent?

Absolutely. He's on the fifth grossly dishonest thing, and with the same unwavering sort of conviction. Person is simply too mentally dysfunctional to be able to evaluate his own mental state.

I'm genuinely interested what you and others think his intentions were and how it should be handled.

The way these things are normally handled: in a proofed room somewhere with no belt or sharp objects. Kinda the way things have been working themselves out anyway, so. Give it a coupla years it'll be fine.

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