coinjedi / betsofbitco.in SCAMMERS: Declares "Push" on obvious win for BFL bet

[Phinnaeus Gage]

The bet started on Sept. 23, 2012, hence referring the bet to the only three products available at the time. http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=701

This bet concerns the 3 Butterfly Labs Bitforce SC products announced here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg966886#msg966886

It's already been proven that the product Luke received was not one of the three available, therefore whatever hashrate was detailed didn't meet ANY advertised hashrate, for there were no specs for it at the time.

The device must achieve at least 75% of its advertised hashrate.

This bet was up for six months, with many people commenting on its existence. Yet, nary a soul questioned its ambiguousness until after images were released by Luke after the EST midnight deadline.

To be clear, I believe...

1) Luke is not an employee of BFL. This issue is mute in my eyes.

2) BoB does not deserve a scammer tag on this issue alone, but if some other impropriety arises, this episode may weigh heavily on any future issue(s) concerning them.

3) At the moment, BFL doesn't deserve a scammer tag, for to date they have refunded all those that've asked. But, the pressure and vigil eyes must remain on their operation, for a myriad of clues point toward something nefarious is afoot.

4) Monies collected by BFL for pre-orders is currently being used to fund their operation, and that if every single person requested a refund today, not all would receive their money. Furthermore, BFL can declare bankruptcy at any time, thus nobody who has pre-ordered would receive a dime, but everybody in the higher hierarchy of BFL would have lived comfortably during the course of the operation, and probably have funds stashed away, making sure that they'll be able to continue their lifestyle.

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[darkmule]

What a complete bullshit artist.  You can bet people will be staying away from this scam site in droves.

[Este Nuno]

coinjedi, would you mind answering this question please:

Is the decision to grade the bet a draw final? Or do you acknowledge the potential to change the decision upon further reflection or if new information related the to bet were to surface?

[BR0KK]

coinjedi, would you mind answering this question please:

Is the decision to grade the bet a draw final? Or do you acknowledge the potential to change the decision upon further reflection or if new information related the to bet were to surface?

As of i know they already refunded people that took part in the bet.... (and did not take a wage out of it)

[Este Nuno]

coinjedi, would you mind answering this question please:

Is the decision to grade the bet a draw final? Or do you acknowledge the potential to change the decision upon further reflection or if new information related the to bet were to surface?

As of i know they already refunded people that took part in the bet.... (and did not take a wage out of it)

Ah, yes. That's right. They've already refunded the bettors.

So I guess at this point the only thing they can do as a company is admit that they chose the wrong outcome. 

[Beepbop]

They could also pay the bettors who actually won. They can do this without trying to extract money from the losers. The money would have to come out of BoB's own money, but that's what happens when you make a mistake that causes a shortfall - unless they're insured or this sort of thing.

[Este Nuno]

They could also pay the bettors who actually won. They can do this without trying to extract money from the losers. The money would have to come out of BoB's own money, but that's what happens when you make a mistake that causes a shortfall - unless they're insured or this sort of thing.

Yes, that would be the moral thing to do.

[Minor Miner]

While you were at BFL, how many employees did you see?   Were there 22?   Or was it closer to 5?   Please let us know so we can figure out if they can even possible ship anyone beyond the first day of orders.

There were at least 14 I can think of off-hand.

thanks.   that is helpful.  just trying to model something out.

[darkmule]

They could also pay the bettors who actually won. They can do this without trying to extract money from the losers. The money would have to come out of BoB's own money, but that's what happens when you make a mistake that causes a shortfall - unless they're insured or this sort of thing.

They could admit they welshed on the bet, stole the winners' money, and gave the winners' money to the losers.  That's what they actually did.  They stole the money from the winners, and gave it to the losers.

Apparently because Puke Jr. is a scamming BFL whore who rigged the bet.

[darkmule]

Last 3 trolls seem to be missing the fact that the bet deadline was at the end of April 1, not the start of it.

Another blatant lie from a blatant liar.

[MPOE-PR]

You owe the winners their winnings, but how you'll be able to come up with the money to pay them is anyones' guess.

So long as both sides get paid out as though they won.  Then it would be a great gesture from the site - to pay both sides (not refund, pay out in full) when BFL clearly didn't deliver.  If the site thinks THEY screwed up by offering a flawed bet then, rather obviously, the site should be the one to absorb any financial loss resulting from it.

For the record, there exists precedent to this. BitBet mispaid a bet last month through clerical error. The true winners were repaid, on the house.

[Este Nuno]

I think the next big question which I'd like to see addressed is how is it possible that the stunt that Luke Jr. and Josh pulled is not considered an attempt to defraud bettors? It is quite obvious that what they did was premeditated and intended to deceive. And they succeeded in altering the outcome of the bet, costing those who would have won a large amount. The evidence is already out there, and I don't think they deny what they did.

Is it just a matter of someone making an accusation thread? What are the arguments against their actions being consistent with being labeled a 'scammer'?

I for one definitely don't understand why someone like Luke Jr who has personally invested so much in the bitcoin community would risk what he has built over the years. Especially considering he has claimed he was not involved in the bet, meaning he wouldn't not have anything to gain by doing this. Only everything to lose, so that is puzzling to say the least.

I would honestly love to hear a well reasoned argument why the 'claiming to ship, but not actually shipping', and the subsequent financial damage to both the bettors and BoB(despite their failure here, they lost both their commision and reputation) could not be considered an act worthy of a scammer title.

[Este Nuno]

So here's a wacky theory.  Luke is obviously borderline sociopath, but perhaps we should be looking at coinjedi/BoB a little more closely. 

When this bet was made, the BTC price was way lower (I haven't checked exactly how low).  It's feasible that the site cashed out those BTC at the time for whatever reason, and the time has now come to settle with the winners.  Oh dear, the price has quadrupled (or whatever) and it now costs way too much to buy back the required coins.   Call it a draw, problem solved

Just throwing it out there.

That's a pretty serious accusation, and one that's probably pretty much impossible to prove either way.

Honestly, I'm starting to think coinjedi just made a really bad mistake, but with no ill intent. It's a lot of money, and ideally the winners should be paid what they should have won. But it's pretty easy to see who caused this whole situation.

I'd be surprised if coinjedi wasn't angry at Luke and Josh for causing him to undermine the integrity of his site, as well as costing him his comission.

[MPOE-PR]

I for one definitely don't understand why someone like Luke Jr who has personally invested so much in the bitcoin community would risk what he has built over the years. Especially considering he has claimed he was not involved in the bet, meaning he wouldn't not have anything to gain by doing this. Only everything to lose, so that is puzzling to say the least.

You're glossing over the part where he's an idiot.

Sure, an idiot that happened to mull into something great early on. This does not make his mulling "invested a lot". It just makes it some lucky happenstance quickly squandered. Which takes us right back to the above. He didn't invest anything. He's just an idiot.

[Este Nuno]

I for one definitely don't understand why someone like Luke Jr who has personally invested so much in the bitcoin community would risk what he has built over the years. Especially considering he has claimed he was not involved in the bet, meaning he wouldn't not have anything to gain by doing this. Only everything to lose, so that is puzzling to say the least.

You're glossing over the part where he's an idiot.

Sure, an idiot that happened to mull into something great early on. This does not make his mulling "invested a lot". It just makes it some lucky happenstance quickly squandered. Which takes us right back to the above. He didn't invest anything. He's just an idiot.

Do you believe him to be stupid enough that he may of thought what he was doing was not fraudulent? That his intent was not to deceive and misrepresent reality while a total of over ~500 BTC was at stake?

I'm genuinely interested what you and others think his intentions were and how it should be handled.

He may of thought that what they were doing was just highly unethical, but not out right fraud?

Luke, do you just not care, or did Josh or someone else mislead you in explaining the situation and what was at stake?

[MPOE-PR]

Do you believe him to be stupid enough that he may of thought what he was doing was not fraudulent?

Absolutely. He's on the fifth grossly dishonest thing, and with the same unwavering sort of conviction. Person is simply too mentally dysfunctional to be able to evaluate his own mental state.

I'm genuinely interested what you and others think his intentions were and how it should be handled.

The way these things are normally handled: in a proofed room somewhere with no belt or sharp objects. Kinda the way things have been working themselves out anyway, so. Give it a coupla years it'll be fine.

[KGambler]

So here's a wacky theory.  Luke is obviously borderline sociopath, but perhaps we should be looking at coinjedi/BoB a little more closely. 

When this bet was made, the BTC price was way lower (I haven't checked exactly how low).  It's feasible that the site cashed out those BTC at the time for whatever reason, and the time has now come to settle with the winners.  Oh dear, the price has quadrupled (or whatever) and it now costs way too much to buy back the required coins.   Call it a draw, problem solved

Just throwing it out there.

I'm not sure I understand your theory.  By calling it a draw, they still have to ship the same total number of bitcoins to both sides as they would if they declared a winner.

Now if you are saying that it appears coinjedi had a stake in the outcome and so maybe he had secretly bet on BFL...  well yeah, that's one of the theories.

[KGambler]

I think the next big question which I'd like to see addressed is how is it possible that the stunt that Luke Jr. and Josh pulled is not considered an attempt to defraud bettors? It is quite obvious that what they did was premeditated and intended to deceive. And they succeeded in altering the outcome of the bet, costing those who would have won a large amount. The evidence is already out there, and I don't think they deny what they did.

Is it just a matter of someone making an accusation thread? What are the arguments against their actions being consistent with being labeled a 'scammer'?

I for one definitely don't understand why someone like Luke Jr who has personally invested so much in the bitcoin community would risk what he has built over the years. Especially considering he has claimed he was not involved in the bet, meaning he wouldn't not have anything to gain by doing this. Only everything to lose, so that is puzzling to say the least.

I would honestly love to hear a well reasoned argument why the 'claiming to ship, but not actually shipping', and the subsequent financial damage to both the bettors and BoB(despite their failure here, they lost both their commision and reputation) could not be considered an act worthy of a scammer title.

I agree that both Luke-Jr. and Josh should be saddled with scammer tags.  Josh even admitted, over at the BFL forum, that this whole thing was just a stunt.  He claimed that he was trying to make a point about Avalon having claimed they "shipped" when they gave that ASIC miner to the Bitcoin Foundation (was it jgarzik or something?).  

Of course, it's much more likely that Josh personally bet on that proposition and that he couldn't stomach the idea of so much money being won by the "trolls" he so despises.  If you read Josh's posts in Micon's betting thread you will see how tilted Josh must have been by the thought of Micon and friends cashing in on his own incompetence.

Luke has admitted that he talks to Josh almost every night from midnight-2:00 AM.  It's now April 9th and it's clear that BFL is not going to be doing any actual shipping anytime soon.  Luke-Jr. can claim that he "received" his "Little Single", but it's very obvious that this was just a gambit meant to cheat the anti-BFL bettors out of their winnings.  

Coinjedi can plead incompetence, but I just don't believe that anyone can be that stupid.  I think he had a stake in the outcome.  He was either bribed/extorted, or he had placed a large pro-BFL wager (more likely).  When these bets were placed, the BTC price was probably a lot lower, so the stakes got much higher.  Also, the way in which coinjedi acted in Luke's delivery thread was suspect.  He came into the thread and asked for opinions.  Then he came back and very suddenly made a final, irreversible decision which completely ignored the requested feedback.  It didn't make any logical sense.  Maybe he had been assured by Josh that BFL shills would back him up in the thread, but they got drowned out in the general outrage.  Anyway, it wasn't the actions of an objective, responsible judge.  I still feel he also deserves a scammer tag.

Several bitcointalk posters keep lists of reputable, BTC gambling related websites.  If anyone sees betsofbitco.in contained on such a list, please request that it be moved to the scammer category.

[AndyRossy]

This whole thing has shocked me, hugely.

[Este Nuno]

Is it Theymos who single handedly decides who gets the tag? I'd like to hear his thoughts on what Luke and Josh did.

At this point what happened is clear, and is not in dispute as far as I know. I welcome anyone who has any new information or differing stories.

Is there anyone who thinks what they did isn't fraudulent, and deserving of the tag?