[ANN][The Original Multipool - Scrypt/SHA256/Scrypt-N/X11] multipool.us

[flound1129]

Still a bit upset I have to pay off your mistake (double payments from last week) at 1.5 percent fee.  You made the mistake and I have to mine 1.5 percent harder to make up for it even though I was donating.  I don't think you should have inserted the fee until everyone had EQUALLY paid off the mistake you made in the double payout.  It would have been fair to both of us... I still have negative amounts which will now take 1.5 percent longer to pay off.  All I want is fairness and the right to choose.  May sound petty but its the truth.

Sorry but you're looking at this the wrong way.

You already got a double, fee-free payout.  The 1.5% would have been taken out of the future coins mined whether or not you had a deficit.  If I had not paid out double you would not have earned those coins yet, and would be paying the 1.5% right now as you mine them, just as you are.

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[Jazkal]

I'm still waiting for the feature to pick which coins you wanna mine profit wise, but I don't think it's coming anytime soon.

This ability is available via 3rd party app, right now. I use this method myself to mine between a handful of the available coins on Multipool. It is a Windows only app, so if your miners on on Linux, then this won't work for you.

The app is call CGWatcher: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=185553.0

With this, you can setup profiles for the different coins you want to mine, and then set it to check every 5-10 mins with CoinChoose, and it will auto switch your miners to the most profitable coin at the moment. CoinChoose isn't as accurate as Flounds calculations, but it is pretty close if you choose the "adjusted proffitablity" option.

Using this method, you can still use Flounds great pool, and mine the coins that you like, and avoid the ones you don't like.

[TheDirtybird]

OK, I will accept that response.  Makes sense when looked at it that way.  Just so used to everyone trying to rip off my mined coins one way or another.. I have become a bit tainted and overprotective mostly due to Trolls and Thieves that bombard crypto on a regular basis.  Good luck to us all.

Thanks.

Still a bit upset I have to pay off your mistake (double payments from last week) at 1.5 percent fee.  You made the mistake and I have to mine 1.5 percent harder to make up for it even though I was donating.  I don't think you should have inserted the fee until everyone had EQUALLY paid off the mistake you made in the double payout.  It would have been fair to both of us... I still have negative amounts which will now take 1.5 percent longer to pay off.  All I want is fairness and the right to choose.  May sound petty but its the truth.

Sorry but you're looking at this the wrong way.

You already got a double, fee-free payout.  The 1.5% would have been taken out of the future coins mined whether or not you had a deficit.  If I had not paid out double you would not have earned those coins yet, and would be paying the 1.5% right now as you mine them, just as you are.

[captainfuture]

if we mine ltc and then switch to another coin without finding a block, will the shares count or are they gone after a while?

[Jcw188]

if we mine ltc and then switch to another coin without finding a block, will the shares count or are they gone after a while?

they "count" but the shares go away after a short while.  I think this is a major problem with the pool. 

Flound I thought you said minimum 10 mins on each coin eveyr time there is a switch.  I swear it switches more than that.

[TheDirtybird]

Actually I have noticed this too.. mostly with high difficulty coins like NVC and LTC.. you can mine for 30 minutes.. then not go back and within 1 hour your mined shares are absorbed into long waits between finding blocks.  So what happens is your 30 minutes of mining is gone and gives back nothing.. this happens more than it should as LTC and NVC can go a day without finding a block.  There is no way to avoid this and it becomes a loss on a regular basis.  Any ideas on how Flound could fix this?

if we mine ltc and then switch to another coin without finding a block, will the shares count or are they gone after a while?

they "count" but the shares go away after a short while.  I think this is a major problem with the pool. 

Flound I thought you said minimum 10 mins on each coin eveyr time there is a switch.  I swear it switches more than that.

[flound1129]

if we mine ltc and then switch to another coin without finding a block, will the shares count or are they gone after a while?

they "count" but the shares go away after a short while.  I think this is a major problem with the pool. 

Flound I thought you said minimum 10 mins on each coin eveyr time there is a switch.  I swear it switches more than that.

It's a little more complicated than that now.

Without going into too much detail, some coins have a minimum of 10 minutes, others have less than that.  When some coins drop in difficulty, it's important to switch to them right away.  Others not as much.

As far as the time-based PPLNS, the question is how rewards are split between dedicated miners and multiport miners.  Since the three "big" coins have a tiny amount of dedicated hashrate, the impact of the time-based PPLNS is very low at the moment.  Remember that if you switch from LTC to a fast coin you are earning payouts the entire time you're off LTC, the people who stay on LTC are not.

[lastbit]

I've started using this pool, with multiport, a few days ago. I'm hashing with a little more than 8Mh/s. Profit snapshot is showing me around 0.12btc/day, for example right now it's 0.1132btc/24h. Value is more or less confirmed by the amount exchanged at Cryptsy. But dustcoin is showing me that I should get 0.16 btc/day for litecoin, value which is conform to some other miners I have pointed to a litecoin pool.
25% less on multiport compared to mining litecoin only on another pool.
Any ideas?

I noticed this issue and stopped mining here. My post was never responded too, but my guess is it has to do with the fluctuating prices in the altcoins we mine. I'm still waiting for the feature to pick which coins you wanna mine profit wise, but I don't think it's coming anytime soon. I think between the orphans, fast-changing jumping, and fluctuating prices you end up losing instead of winning at this point.

A few points.

1) The profit snapshot is just that, a snapshot.  If the coins have dropped in value since being mined, the snapshot will show a lower value (even if you were able to sell the coins at a higher value before they dropped).  To get prices closest to the value when being mined, use auto withdraw and auto sell.
2) With middlecoin and multipool there is now over 2GH hopping between coins.  Middlecoin and many Multipool users sell everything they mine immediately, which normally results in a sharp drop of the coin price, and then a recovery a few hours later as more buy orders come in.  Or, sometimes not.
3) With the fast coins like DGC and WDC, I think that the profitability is still not even as high as calculated due to the Multipool/Middlecoin effect.  In fact it may be much lower.  I'm working on some changes in stratum to help mitigate this, and also when WDC hits 600,000 blocks soon, the changes that the WDC devs made will take effect, and that should dramatically improve the situtation with WDC.

My personal view is that 95% of these coins are on a downward spiral to 0 value.  Speculating may make you some money in the short term, but long term it's better to mine and sell, mine and sell.

First, thanks for the answer.
Like the TheFuneral said, orphans, too often commute, and I might add too much stales of some coins, kill all the potential benefits.
I have doubts 10 or 15 minutes a day in some coins have much value if at all.

[TheFuneral]

I've started using this pool, with multiport, a few days ago. I'm hashing with a little more than 8Mh/s. Profit snapshot is showing me around 0.12btc/day, for example right now it's 0.1132btc/24h. Value is more or less confirmed by the amount exchanged at Cryptsy. But dustcoin is showing me that I should get 0.16 btc/day for litecoin, value which is conform to some other miners I have pointed to a litecoin pool.
25% less on multiport compared to mining litecoin only on another pool.
Any ideas?

I noticed this issue and stopped mining here. My post was never responded too, but my guess is it has to do with the fluctuating prices in the altcoins we mine. I'm still waiting for the feature to pick which coins you wanna mine profit wise, but I don't think it's coming anytime soon. I think between the orphans, fast-changing jumping, and fluctuating prices you end up losing instead of winning at this point.

A few points.

1) The profit snapshot is just that, a snapshot.  If the coins have dropped in value since being mined, the snapshot will show a lower value (even if you were able to sell the coins at a higher value before they dropped).  To get prices closest to the value when being mined, use auto withdraw and auto sell.
2) With middlecoin and multipool there is now over 2GH hopping between coins.  Middlecoin and many Multipool users sell everything they mine immediately, which normally results in a sharp drop of the coin price, and then a recovery a few hours later as more buy orders come in.  Or, sometimes not.
3) With the fast coins like DGC and WDC, I think that the profitability is still not even as high as calculated due to the Multipool/Middlecoin effect.  In fact it may be much lower.  I'm working on some changes in stratum to help mitigate this, and also when WDC hits 600,000 blocks soon, the changes that the WDC devs made will take effect, and that should dramatically improve the situtation with WDC.

My personal view is that 95% of these coins are on a downward spiral to 0 value.  Speculating may make you some money in the short term, but long term it's better to mine and sell, mine and sell.

Thanks for the response. This motivates my question of will there be a feature where we can select which coins to multipool with? Personally I just want FTC/NVC/LTC the other ones aren't worth my time. Is this an option you see coming?

[gjpminingco]

ok this is a little strange, I can not login I get kicked right back to the main page even tho it is saying Welcome back and all that what the hell is going on?

[paulm]

Actually I have noticed this too.. mostly with high difficulty coins like NVC and LTC.. you can mine for 30 minutes.. then not go back and within 1 hour your mined shares are absorbed into long waits between finding blocks.  So what happens is your 30 minutes of mining is gone and gives back nothing.. this happens more than it should as LTC and NVC can go a day without finding a block.  There is no way to avoid this and it becomes a loss on a regular basis.  Any ideas on how Flound could fix this?

if we mine ltc and then switch to another coin without finding a block, will the shares count or are they gone after a while?

they "count" but the shares go away after a short while.  I think this is a major problem with the pool.  

Flound I thought you said minimum 10 mins on each coin eveyr time there is a switch.  I swear it switches more than that.

Easy, change to Proportional or Pay Per Share. Proportional would be best as everyone gets paid proportional to the amount of shares they submit whereas Pay Per Share is more risky for the pool operator. As it is now, the LTC round time is set to one hour, yet it can take from a few hours to a few days to find a block. That means only the shares submitted at most an hour before a share is found gets paid anything. The rest of the shares get paid nothing. I think this is why many people are not seeing the profitability they are expecting.

I vote for PROPORTIONAL!!!

[skyhigh2004]

Actually I have noticed this too.. mostly with high difficulty coins like NVC and LTC.. you can mine for 30 minutes.. then not go back and within 1 hour your mined shares are absorbed into long waits between finding blocks.  So what happens is your 30 minutes of mining is gone and gives back nothing.. this happens more than it should as LTC and NVC can go a day without finding a block.  There is no way to avoid this and it becomes a loss on a regular basis.  Any ideas on how Flound could fix this?

if we mine ltc and then switch to another coin without finding a block, will the shares count or are they gone after a while?

they "count" but the shares go away after a short while.  I think this is a major problem with the pool.  

Flound I thought you said minimum 10 mins on each coin eveyr time there is a switch.  I swear it switches more than that.

Easy, change to Proportional or Pay Per Share. Proportional would be best as everyone gets paid proportional to the amount of shares they submit whereas Pay Per Share is more risky for the pool operator. As it is now, the LTC round time is set to one hour, yet it can take from a few hours to a few days to find a block. That means only the shares submitted at most an hour before a share is found gets paid anything. The rest of the shares get paid nothing. I think this is why many people are not seeing the profitability they are expecting.

I vote for PROPORTIONAL!!!

This^

Any issue I have had with this pool I would be willing to work on and have excepted them as not problems but the way things run.  The time based PPLNS is not a good way to get paid and is the main reason for me not using the pool.  I only use PPS or Prop pools with multiminer and I get almost exactly or a fraction of a percent more than my estimated.

[STT]

Using this method, you can still use Flounds great pool, and mine the coins that you like, and avoid the ones you don't like.

I dont see the option to have cgw flick between configs.    

Is the depth on Fast coins too small to mine ?

[Jazkal]

I dont see the option to have cgw flick between configs.     

On the Settings tab, using the "Manage profiles" button, you have to assign the "Coin" drop down to the Coin of choice. And on the "Schedule" tab, you have to setup a schedule.

Is the depth on Fast coins too small to mine ?

I'm not sure what you mean.

[flound1129]

Actually I have noticed this too.. mostly with high difficulty coins like NVC and LTC.. you can mine for 30 minutes.. then not go back and within 1 hour your mined shares are absorbed into long waits between finding blocks.  So what happens is your 30 minutes of mining is gone and gives back nothing.. this happens more than it should as LTC and NVC can go a day without finding a block.  There is no way to avoid this and it becomes a loss on a regular basis.  Any ideas on how Flound could fix this?

if we mine ltc and then switch to another coin without finding a block, will the shares count or are they gone after a while?

they "count" but the shares go away after a short while.  I think this is a major problem with the pool.  

Flound I thought you said minimum 10 mins on each coin eveyr time there is a switch.  I swear it switches more than that.

Easy, change to Proportional or Pay Per Share. Proportional would be best as everyone gets paid proportional to the amount of shares they submit whereas Pay Per Share is more risky for the pool operator. As it is now, the LTC round time is set to one hour, yet it can take from a few hours to a few days to find a block. That means only the shares submitted at most an hour before a share is found gets paid anything. The rest of the shares get paid nothing. I think this is why many people are not seeing the profitability they are expecting.

I vote for PROPORTIONAL!!!

This^

Any issue I have had with this pool I would be willing to work on and have excepted them as not problems but the way things run.  The time based PPLNS is not a good way to get paid and is the main reason for me not using the pool.  I only use PPS or Prop pools with multiminer and I get almost exactly or a fraction of a percent more than my estimated.

Why don't you like time-based PPLNS?  What do you see as unfair about it?

[guitarplinker]

Actually I have noticed this too.. mostly with high difficulty coins like NVC and LTC.. you can mine for 30 minutes.. then not go back and within 1 hour your mined shares are absorbed into long waits between finding blocks.  So what happens is your 30 minutes of mining is gone and gives back nothing.. this happens more than it should as LTC and NVC can go a day without finding a block.  There is no way to avoid this and it becomes a loss on a regular basis.  Any ideas on how Flound could fix this?

if we mine ltc and then switch to another coin without finding a block, will the shares count or are they gone after a while?

they "count" but the shares go away after a short while.  I think this is a major problem with the pool.  

Flound I thought you said minimum 10 mins on each coin eveyr time there is a switch.  I swear it switches more than that.

Easy, change to Proportional or Pay Per Share. Proportional would be best as everyone gets paid proportional to the amount of shares they submit whereas Pay Per Share is more risky for the pool operator. As it is now, the LTC round time is set to one hour, yet it can take from a few hours to a few days to find a block. That means only the shares submitted at most an hour before a share is found gets paid anything. The rest of the shares get paid nothing. I think this is why many people are not seeing the profitability they are expecting.

I vote for PROPORTIONAL!!!

This^

Any issue I have had with this pool I would be willing to work on and have excepted them as not problems but the way things run.  The time based PPLNS is not a good way to get paid and is the main reason for me not using the pool.  I only use PPS or Prop pools with multiminer and I get almost exactly or a fraction of a percent more than my estimated.

Why don't you like time-based PPLNS?  What do you see as unfair about it?

Even though we've done the work, but if a block isn't found during the time while mining a certain coin before it switches again, that work time has been wasted, and just wasted power.

Like, even though we did the work but we didn't find a LTC block (for example) in a certain time frame we don't get rewarded for our efforts?

[flound1129]

Why don't you like time-based PPLNS?  What do you see as unfair about it?

Even though we've done the work, but if a block isn't found during the time while mining a certain coin before it switches again, that work time has been wasted, and just wasted power.

Like, even though we did the work but we didn't find a LTC block (for example) in a certain time frame we don't get rewarded for our efforts?

In reality, *ALL* of the work other than the winning share is wasted power.

And you do get paid, all you have to do is keep mining on the pool and be here when a block is found.  Why should multiport miners get paid if the LTC pool finds a block on its own, 3 hours after MP moves off?  Do you think that's fair?  What if the people mining LTC have been doing it for 3 days with no blocks found?  Should their reward be halved just because the multipool switched to LTC for 1/2 hour?  That could easily happen with a proportional system.

PPLNS is a proven, fair way of distributing rewards to dedicated miners.  With short, time-based rounds you lose your shares quickly after you stop mining, but your payout also increases to a full payout much more quickly as well.

[GSnak]

All mining shares should result in a payout. Shares that go up in smoke is electricity with zero return. It doesn't pay the bills. If the steady miners pay for gas for 80% of a truck haul, and port 7777 for 20%, even if 7777 isn't driving when they reach their destination they should still get paid for their 20%. Mining is gambling, if people pool their money to buy a lottery ticket they all get paid even though only the winning ticket gets the money.

[flound1129]

All mining shares should result in a payout.

That is not a universally agreed-upon statement.  Payout algorithms should distribute block rewards fairly and there is more than one way to do that.  Proportional has been showed to be a deeply flawed system, which is why almost no pools use it (and the ones that do are gamed by pool hoppers).

If you think the current system distributes block rewards unfairly, please explain exactly why you think that.  Use numbers.  Feel free to refer to a particular block on the pool if you like.

Practically, I have little motivation to change the payout algorithm for the following reasons:

1. I believe that other than PPS, it is the most fair to all parties (dedicated coin miners and multipool miners)
2. It would require a fair amount of coding to change, and I have other priorities
3. Any payout method that requires me to potentially keep millions of shares in the db for 10+ coins (i.e. proportional) is going to result in the need for a larger DB system and increase fees for all users.

[belltown]

PPLNS is good system, we should stop wasting effort on this discussion. This is not a problem.

The real problem is that there is a perception that our average long term profitability is lower then just mining LTC. Is it? I don't know. Sometimes we definitely have bad days that don't even cover electricity costs. But we have good days too. Is it better on average to stay with the pool or mine LTC?

It would be helpful if we can get a chart showing pool profitably vs LTC profitability. So we can see 1 month view for example.