Monero's ANON FAIL !

[toknormal]

Money is just belief.

True - from a philosophical perspective.

But if you are engaged in monetary design it helps to have a systems analytical appraisal at your disposal in addition to mere philosophical observations.

[dinofelis]

Money is just belief.

True - from a philosophical perspective.

But if you are engaged in monetary design it helps to have a systems analytical appraisal at your disposal in addition to mere philosophical observations.

No, really.  It isn't just philosophical.  It is purely economical.  Money is nothing else but a belief that others believe in value - and as such, one is part one-self of the group of believers that others believe in.  And that's all money needs: a self-sustaining community of people who mutually believe in each-others' belief in the value of the asset, the belief in the legit creation and the belief in the absence of double spending (conservation of money in transactions). 

[dinofelis]

@toknormal

I could even add that your "chain of trust" is somehow not even existing with any crypto currency, not even with bitcoin.

After all, what could potentially back bitcoin ?  Bitcoins are created by WASTING electricity (PoW).  You can hardly back something by waste heat.  Next, in each transaction, bitcoins are destroyed, and an equal amount of bitcoins are created: bitcoins are unspend transaction outputs ; when they are spend in a transaction, they are not "unspend" transactions any more, and NEW "unspend transactions" are now created.  So there's nothing special about "this" bitcoin being created because of the destruction of "that" bitcoin.  The only thing that counts is that the new coins (the new unspend transaction outputs) are EQUAL IN AMOUNT to the destroyed ones.  That's all we need to know.  If you happen to possess an unspend transaction output, which you can PROVE cryptographically, then all one needs to know is that this came from SOME destroyed previous unspend transaction output, OR was a legit new one created by wasting electricity.  A trivial way to show this, is by showing explicitly WHICH one it came from.  That's what bitcoin does.  But in doing so, one kills fungibility and anonymity.  There are smarter ways to prove cryptographically that the unspend transaction output I have, came from the destruction of SOME other coin somewhere.  That's what anonymous chains like monero or zcash do.  It's more sophisticated than the blunt proof of "it came from this one so the accounts are OK", but it is just as valid.  The QUANTITY of coins in circulation is finite and conserved in transactoins - that's what one needs to know. 

One doesn't need to know that THIS coin is "backed" by THAT amount of heat wasted in THAT mining farm at THAT moment.   One only needs to know that there's only this finite amount of coins in circulation, "backed" by that amount of waste heat.  But again, backing something by waste is a funny way to consider backing.  Because it isn't.  You cannot "redeem your waste heat" with your coins.  The heat is wasted.  So it is not a backing like with a credit system.  There's simply NOTHING that backs bitcoin, or any other crypto.  So your argument that one cannot follow what backs what doesn't even go for bitcoin, because NOTHING backs it.  It is the purest example of "belief system".

[toknormal]

So your argument that one cannot follow what backs what doesn't even go for bitcoin, because NOTHING backs it.  It is the purest example of "belief system".

That's why column zero (Archetype A) is labelled "unbacked".

[DrkLvr_]

I've seen you make similar arguments in the past...The coin supply can be verified by anyone.

The "arguments" have nothing to do with verifying the coin supply.

I can't follow your logic with regard to the asymmetry between holders and non-holders. If I have $1000 cash at home, and I take out a $100 bill and then pay you for some goods, you don't know about the other $900 I have. Same with something like gold. You can't see the flow of all dollars or gold. What you do have is an understanding that the asset in question has value and scarcity. So it is with Monero. Even if you don't have any Monero, you can download the software and verify that there are X coins in circulation. So what do you mean by asymmetry?

I don't get toknormal either... He seems to have a whole monetary theory of his own, unsupported by any theory/history... I've given up on trying to understand what he means...

Basically all he does is cherry picks whatever theory he thinks makes XMR look somehow "bad". He can't really even explain it or back it up himself. That's why he has no real answers when challenged as you can see above. Toknormal talks so much delusional nonsense i feel he might be legitimately brain damaged

[Braeron]

If ANON was needed so badly why did the dev's not submit the idea to the Bitcoin core dev's foundation etc ?
Was it because they knew it would be rejected ?

Exactly. Bitcoin will never have anonymity feature. that is why coins as Monero brought something to the Crypto table.

There are many alt's that claim to be the main anonymous coin; dash, blackcoin, monero, shadowcoin etc.
But we all know the only coin that will win, will be the coin with the best marketing.

[dinofelis]

So your argument that one cannot follow what backs what doesn't even go for bitcoin, because NOTHING backs it.  It is the purest example of "belief system".

That's why column zero (Archetype A) is labelled "unbacked".

The original idea of "backing" a currency is that whatever backs it, HAS INTRINSIC VALUE.  That is to say, it has a finite market price because people want to use it, and the market value doesn't derive from the fact that people think that they can sell it to someone else (in an infinite succession).

This was the basis of John Law's doctrine, where the backing happens with land.  Land has intrinsic value.  You want to possess land, not just because you think you can sell it later, but because you want to grow groceries on it, because you want to build a house on it, because you want to put a factory on it, because you want to have forest on it and keep other people out.... so many uses of land.    
Or you could take something else with intrinsic value: salt, or coal, or oil, or whatever that has intrinsic (usage) value, which is, after all, the whole source of value in the end.

The problem with "backing" money with something is that, in as much as the money is really redeemable for the backing asset, the monetary value of money gets transferred to the backed asset, which therefor increases in price.  That is a problem for the actual usage of that asset.

Let me explain.  Suppose that "salt", which has some market value, is taken to back a certain monetary token.  People use "salt bills".  They know that for a salt bill, they can obtain 1 kg of salt at the central bank, who has acquired a huge stock of salt.  Now, in as much as that salt bill will originally get the value of the market price of 1kg of salt, if that monetary asset is successful, it will obtain more and more value, simply because of the demand for it and its limited supply (Fischer's formula).  But a salt bill being equivalent to a kg of salt, people will now hoard real salt too.  And putting salt on your potatoes will become a very expensive affair: the physical salt has become, through the equivalence, itself a monetary asset, with a much higher price than the original intrinsic usage market value of salt.
Now, the "backing" of the salt bills with salt is essentially a backing of a monetary asset (salt bills) by ANOTHER monetary asset (salt), and that value is much larger than the original intrinsic value of salt.

The monetary value of salt is again, nothing else but a belief system: salt has value because people believe that other people value it as a monetary asset.  The day that this belief crumbles, salt will go back to its intrinsic usage value of it, to put on your potatoes.  In the mean time, people have to eat unsalted potatoes.  That's the problem with "backing money": first of all, it destroys the utility of the backing asset (here, salt) because it renders it too expensive ; next, the backing asset itself gets an inflated price that only comes from a monetary belief system.  So there's no point in backing money, because whatever backs it, also becomes "inflated with belief-thin-air".

[NoirGroup LLDC]

I'm guessing people  thought anonimty was that big a deal. maybe it is, we'll see if and when at least 10% of the globe is actively into crypto useage

[Spoetnik]

We hear.. "one day..."

Well people who showed here to PROFIT..
I posted what i did on the anon crap for that exact reason.

Your ANON coin will forever be pidgin-holed as some Bitcoin offshoot niche / gimmick scheme coin.

You can not achieve world wide global general usage adoption by the public when you oppose the powers in control of FIAT.
Go for it.. walk into a major bank and ask them how they feel about Monero or Anon coins.  

I've been pushing the animals head into the food and it won't eat.. AKA: you all refuse to listen.
You all just keep chanting "Trust me" and "One day" basically.. with diversionary reasoning.

Best case scenario you get some minor adoption with dark Market usage and some trading with your picture ID on Poloniex then later hacks or exploits show up rendering Monero insecure then.. Dark Market arrests happen and Marshall's auction off more crypto coins.

There will be no world wide global adoption.. ever.

I think you all know that too and yet argue on with it all simply to guard your bags and profit from the "Scheme"

You have to get past the old guard people.
Your attempts to say we don't need FIAT ties are silly bullshit..

Take for example when i sent $2,500 twice from BTCe to Paypal.
PP launched an investigation and seized my funds and made me get a signed affidavit saying i violated their TOS.
Which i did.. i never did read the fine print.
Which said usage of ANY virtual currency with their service is forbidden.

WHAT.. THE.. FUCK.. did i just fucking say ?
The old guard is standing there and they are blocking your adoption.. on Bitcoin (never mind anon coin variants)

And when you just need 1 or 2 key leaders to Silk Road you are probably willing to bribe an exchange employee to leak all your info.
BAM.. arrested.

Bin Laden / Lambo syndrome.

In other words your security is compromised.. by passing the 13,000 layers of encryption.
Such as the Firewall i have use i have keygen'd many times for 4 years..
I also patched it with 1 byte changed to render the activation system on it broken.
Get it ? I did not have to brute force crack and break the hashing algo it used ..i went AROUND it !

I am talking about the trend on the web last decade or two..
We have seen a whole slew of ways that security can be compromised.
And all we see from Monero idiots is them pointing to their vault door howling and cawing like crows how their damn DOOR is "secure"
So.. fucking.. what !
I don't give two flying shits about your fucking little door.. i laugh at your god damn door. LOL
If i need in that vault bad enough i will make friends with the Bank Manager

[PantminerS7]

Yeah, buddy. No one wants anonymity in bitcoin, that's why there are DNM's and bitcoin tumblers. Your statement makes all the sense in the world.

Now why are you FUDding XMR? Current price too high for you to be able to afford to buy in? OR do you fear XMR taking dominance over whatever bags you're holding?

 Might wanna spend your time otherwise if you can't get two 0.001's to scrape together, Spoetnik!

[dinofelis]

We here.. "one day..."

Well people who showed here to PROFIT..
I posted what i did on the anon crap for that exact reason.

Your ANON coin will forever be pidgin-holed as some Bitcoin offshoot niche / gimmick scheme coin.

You can not achieve world wide global general usage adoption by the public when you oppose the powers in control of FIAT.
Go for it.. walk into a major bank and ask them how they feel about Monero or Anon coins.  

If you don't oppose the powers in control of fiat, use fiat.  If you want to go to a bank, use fiat.  Why would you want a bank to be interested in (anon or not) crypto ?  What's the point ?  If you go to a bank, use their money.  And if you use "bank-less" crypto, don't go to a bank.  Your statement is about as pertinent as "go to a gas station and ask them how they feel about sailing boats".

Anon is not important because crypto is simply almost not used.  Most crypto is simply speculative IOU on exchanges.  There you don't need anon of course ; hell, you even don't need a block chain.  Just faith in the owner of the exchange.  Like with a bank but with less legal protection.

[obit33]

You can not achieve world wide global general usage adoption by the public when you oppose the powers in control of FIAT.
Go for it.. walk into a major bank and ask them how they feel about Monero or Anon coins.  

Why oppose them if you can just avoid them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYD17h6hlCs&t=3m17s

anonymous e-cash has the potential to cuff TPTB's hands on its back.
Some people were able to see this already in 1999, others don't see it when it's right in front of their nose...

BTW, not saying that this anonymous e-cash will and must be XMR, but there will always be a need for anonymous e-cash...

best regards

[toknormal]

The original idea of "backing" a currency is that whatever backs it, HAS INTRINSIC VALUE.  That is to say, it has a finite market price because people want to use it, and the market value doesn't derive from the fact that people think that they can sell it to someone else (in an infinite succession)

You seem to be making several reasonable observations here but then get them all tangled up and arrive at a slightly weird conclusion Probably because - again - they're all notional, philosophical observations rather than analytical ones.

Intrinsic Value ?
Firstly, "Instrinsic value" is a slightly meaningless term since A: it means different things to different people and B: it implies that the "value" is a property of the monetary medium whereas if you spent 5 seconds studying a market depth chart you can see that it isn't - it's a projected property of its consumers and traders who all value the asset differently.

A more useful way to look at it is to split all things into one of 2 types of value:

1. utility value (things that are acquired to be retained)
2. monetary value (things that are acquired to be exchanged)

The reason that’s useful is because it’s reasonably easy to delineate utility (product) markets from monetary ones, notwithstanding that there is sometimes an overlap as with precious metals.

Monetary Premium
The monetary premium - as you rightly point out - is the value that’s added to an item in excess of its utility value when it gets used as money. ( See this example where I had a go at quantifying it using funfair tokens for how huge it is). But what do you notice about this principle ? It is that a monetary medium is most efficient (most “perfect| if you like) when it has zero utility value. Thats because if it has any utility value at all then a finite amount of it will continuously go out of circulation. This concept is slightly counter-intuitive because many people see the utility value of precious metals for example as adding to their monetary value.

So a cryptocurrency is near-perfect money in that respect. But lets look at this in the context of your conclusion:

"Backed" Money

So there's no point in backing money, because whatever backs it, also becomes "inflated with belief-thin-air".

Really ? What exactly do you think exchange balances are ? Or the charge balance at a supermarket till ? ETF certificates ? ANY kind of invoice or bill ? The pricing on high street goods ?

ALL of these are backed money (derivatives) that follow a chain of exchangeability or trust of the type I cited earlier and NONE of them involve trades which would have to interact with a blockchain even if that blockchain’s tokens formed the denomination for the trade. These chains of trust are everywhere and almost all follow the same cycle (chain) of exchangeability until you get down to a backing asset which is “transparent” and not the subject of a record-keeping paradigm.

Back to Archetypes
Finally, lets just look at one of those examples for a minute - the cryptocurrency exchange - to do the archetype appraisal. We examine 2 types of monetary media in the chain of trust, both sharing the same denomination but decoupled in every other way:

1. Blockchain tokens (The “backing” asset)
2. The account balances on the exchange (The “trading” currency)

Notice that your account balance is denominated in blockchain tokens (say, BTC) and you can trade all day long without even touching the blockchain. But they are meaningless without the backing asset which gives them value. (When MT Gox was discovered to be doing fractional reserve trading, the price of BTC on that exchange plummeted to about a quarter of the global market value to reflect that fact)

If we further examine the characteristics of those two distinct monetary “tiers”, what do we find ? The exact same two conflicting priorities I described earlier in the commentary on archetypes, where the tier zero asset is transparent and where privacy is the domain of the higher order tiers. In other words, decoupled so that they can be optimised without compromise.

This is what Spoetnik has been trying to explain throughout the thread (in his own inimitable way). For it to be of any use, a cryptocurrency asset needs entry and exit points to its derivative markets (the most basic of which is an exchange) and that levels the playing field.

Why we need transparent blockchains
A cryptocurrency - being unbacked money - will always form the base tier in a complex, layered, trust based financial network. That network requires maximum transparency from its “base assets”, otherwise it will simply taint the entire coin supply since the bulk of the trading goes on using derivative tokens anyway (see exchanges, eCommerce systems, POS, you name it).

Obscurity therefore has no useful purpose manifesting itself in a base blockchain asset as it will simply make it less useable, less, trustable and less valuable.

[jwinterm]

toknormal has a PhD in the field of hand wavey economic bullshit, apparently. Talking about this stuff like it's some well established scientific principle. I don't even think regular economists know wtf they're talking about, let alone cryptoeconomists.

[Spoetnik]

The replies i am getting here are a failure and so is MONERO.

I can light up your ass's for eternity ..each and every single point squashed.
You guys have nothing on me or my points i made.. your done, game over.

My agenda ?

Adoption dumb fucks.

I need money ? I keep giving away any coins i get because i don't want them.

Retorts about being jealous and wanting to "buy in" ? = ROFL
I don't buy dead scam coins for profit  

We are suppose to be opposing the Govt ?
Where the flying fuck did that idiotic bullshit come from ?
Who the fuck told you morons Satoshi made Bitcoin to "Stick it to the man" ..like a rebellious naive teen.
If that is the core of your little Morono defense you guys are in a lot of trouble.

Further more.. learn to read brain dead retards..
I said "Compromise" endlessly since 2013.
..in other words idiots i said you can still aim for your rebellious childish free market angst PROFITEERING.
And still try and work WITH the powers that be right now (not like you have a fucking choice)
Which by the way is your real agenda for the rebellious free market rabble..
You all simply want to protect your scam coin machine where you make 6,000 ANN topics to profit from.
THAT and that alone is why you fucking idiots want no regulations.

It's not like you resist them (verbally only on a forum) because you're all using Dark Markets or something.
Nope you are here spouting off simply because you think your ROI's are threatened by reg's.
How many of you contributed to drafting any regulations again ?
NONE.. you are content to sit here denying they exist.. as they are continually implemented anyway

And an exception to the rules as always does not mean fuck all.
Just because you CAN buy Monero tard coins via some non-exchange method..
..doesn't change the fact all the trading is done on Poloniex etc.

Your citing a random exception to the rule does not invalidate the damn rule idiots.
Nice try though.. again (you play that card here like a broken record)

You retards actually think you are going to get global real world user adoption on a large scale with out connecting to the FIAT system and opposing the current regulatory authorities ?

THEN YOU ARE FUCKING RETARDED !

I can prove it infinitely too.. go ahead cocky little crypto-rebels..
Go tell the tax man you made money on crypto and did not claim it.. see what happens cocky fuckheads.

By the way.. Ripple + Fincen

PS:
FBI + Localbitcoins arrests.

What part of reading English do you idiots fail at ?
I can see you want to argue but.. well, you just don't know how.  

You wish you had some little retort or defense for ANON coins but you don't.
ANd the general pubic sees it too !
They think what i think and the market prices of the coins proves it.
You are not fooling anyone other than the 0.0000000000001% of the worlds population here bag holding Monero for PROFITS.

You should be worried little expert crypto-pundits.. your anon bullshit has no where left to go but down.

And supporting NO LAWS for a philosophical ideal is retarded.
When you are only doing so to pad your wallets.
Meanwhile in real reality the lack of reg's is used by Dark Market drug dealers and pedo's and crypto criminals making scams.

Finding some stupid excused to abolish law so you can chant freedom is stupid.
And spare me the cliche'd retort of it "don't work"
Murder is illegal now isn't it ? Laws exist but it still happens so should we abandon the law then ?
THAT is your tired old ass logic on the matter..
You guys got some nerve.. i seen a recent news story where a wannabee Hitman was on the Dark Markets.
And here you are defending him chanting Free Market like retards.

Laws exist for a fucking reason.
And they ALREADY exist dumb fucking morons.. did you not see my Paypal comment earlier ?
When i Google searched the email i got from them i found the same one sent to a guy here in 2012
and what do we see here on the forum ?
An entire forum sub-section dedicated to encouraging users to violate the PP TOS and get nailed.

Crypto is ALREADY 90% reliant on transfers to and from FIAT.
Sitting here saying we don't need them is a retarded crock of moronic bullshit.

Like the story i told you all the other day how i was chatting with a big site owner who was using a hoster that accepted Bitcoin only.. yet he had no idea to the fuck to get the damn bitcoins and was possibly going to have his site shut down.
What do you think the Bitcoin noob is going to end up doing ?
HE IS GOING TO BUY BITCOINS WITH FIAT DUMB FUCKING MORONS.
I know.. because he told me he was going to.

You have NO retort.. 0
You idiots are fucked.
Your ANON bullshit is dead and going no where and beyond doomed.

The fact you spout off otherwise is deceitful bullshit.... for PROFITS (on Poloniex so you can buy BTC with FIAT then trade them with your Picture ID for ROI's)

AKA: The reason you don't want reg's in the first place.. ROI's  

This my cocky stupid crypto-contrarians is 100% completely obvious to the world watching.
You are not fooling anyone and are wasting you're time and suckering in naive young millennials who suffer from stupidity and believe the kool-aid drinking rebellious free market rabble (for profits on poloniex with your picture ID)

We don't need laws or banks etc ?

Tell that to the hundred's of not thousands of Police agencies hunting Ransomware spreaders.
Your buddies.. you are here defending (for profits on Poloniex with your Picture ID)

I am jealous ? Of your ROI'z ?  
I think not scum bags.. i just have Integrity unlike the rest of you pricks.
I actually care about main stream adoption or RansomWare victims or guys dying from Fentanyl bought on Dark Markets or stupid teens thinking they can trust the security of a DM coin anon claim from Monero as Untraceable.
Or the close to billion dollars stolen from exchanges from Gox to Mintpal to RawX / McxNOW or Cryptsy etc etc
Or all the other services that rip you off with no repercussions.. such as Escrows or Pools.

Nope assholes i am not here defending all those pricks to brag about my ROI's using a sock puppet account you just created.
Nope i am here holding my head up high with some class & integrity.

Monero is dead.

It is not going anywhere or doing anything.. it peaked and can only go down from here.

You guys create these anon GIMMICK coins over & over.. to profit off them .

I seen hours ago an arrest in Canada where they had to call in hazmat suite guys.
They needed to use suits made for nuclear disasters and quarantine the place.. why ?
Well let me tell you, Carfentenyl can kill an adult by touching a couple grains with your hands.
Wrap your head around that !
..risky packages sent by snail mail all over the world daily.
There is an epidemic going on all over with mass deaths associated with Fentanyl.
A lot of it is sold on Dark Markets paid for with Bitcoin.
I know i seen another news report recently saying that exactly (Alphabay)

So no.. sleazy little fucking profiteers i do NOT support your scam coin gimmick anon bullshit for profits.
Sorry but i have more class and integrity than the entire shitcoin scene combined.
And be grateful i told you HOW TO GET RICH.
Sadly you are too stupid too listen and would rather be global predators or their enablers.. for profits.
Think of that greedy naive rebels next time you are helping a family member infected with Ransomware.

[toknormal]

hand wavey economic bullshit

Here's another "hand wavey" factoid for you since you're so suitably entertained

Of the 13 Million in XMR denominated trades that occured last month which supported the coin's value, precisely zero benefited from XMR's anonymity technology. Rather it all had to rely on Poloniex's password security and was additionally logged, with identities and email addresses.

Why is that ?

Answer: because cryptonote takes a record-keeping archetype that belongs to the higher order monetary tiers and redundantly implements it in the base tier where the trading isn't and where transparency, not opacity belongs.

[sui_generis]

toknormal has a PhD in the field of hand wavey economic bullshit, apparently. Talking about this stuff like it's some well established scientific principle. I don't even think regular economists know wtf they're talking about, let alone cryptoeconomists.

Economics isn't a (real) science, and the vast majority of economists are essentially bullshit peddlers. People should read Taleb. Toknormal is at the absolute lowest rung of economists (armchair economist), so what exactly does that make him? Lol.

[sui_generis]

hand wavey economic bullshit

Here's another "hand wavey" factoid for you since you're so suitably entertained

Of the 13 Million in XMR denominated trades that occured last month which supported the coin's value, precisely zero benefited from XMR's anonymity technology. Rather it all had to rely on Poloniex's password security and was additionally logged, with identities and email addresses.

Why is that ?

Answer: because cryptonote takes a record-keeping archetype that belongs to the higher order monetary tiers and redundantly implements it in the base tier where the trading isn't and where transparency, not opacity belongs.

Okay, and 0% of the $X in BTC trades benefited from BTC's decentralization and lack of counterparty risk. Centralized exchanges suck. Thanks for pointing that out, Einstein.

I don't know why we keep arguing with you. One look at your post history shows that you're primarily involved in scamcoins. You have zero credibility to be lecturing anyone.

[toknormal]

Okay, and 0% of the $X in BTC trades benefited from BTC's decentralization and lack of counterparty risk

BTC's "decentralisation" and lack of counterparty risk aren't the least bit inconsistent with it's "bearer token" archetype. See above.

Centralized exchanges suck.

Not so much when they form the basis of your entire valuation. I didn't detect too much misery when Bitfinex adopted. The words "cake" and "eating it" spring to mind  

[karawantbtc]

One day BTC WILL have full anon. but at that time so will many other coins.