Is BitCoinPlus a scam?

[BitcoinPorn]

man this rant is way more popular than mine! hehe BitCoinBarter , nobody wants to listen to reason here!

I noticed someone in the other thread mentioned this, but that word "Scam" does get abused here a lot, and without even the site here to defend itself, even with the competition of Bitp.it coming in, saying that the technology isn't all there and it is inefficient,  and I think EVERYONE agrees that BitcoinPlus could use a site redesign and update or two with a F.A.Q. or so.   

For now two different threads, multiple attacks on BitcoinPlus, 0 defense from them, we are only seeing one side of this argument, and yet "nobody wants to listen to reason" ?   I think "nobody wants to admit that this isn't the best site, but scam is not the word for it", except in this case, nobody is most everybody.

[Seaco]

man this rant is way more popular than mine! hehe BitCoinBarter , nobody wants to listen to reason here!

I noticed someone in the other thread mentioned this, but that word "Scam" does get abused here a lot, and without even the site here to defend itself, even with the competition of Bitp.it coming in, saying that the technology isn't all there and it is inefficient,  and I think EVERYONE agrees that BitcoinPlus could use a site redesign and update or two with a F.A.Q. or so.  

For now two different threads, multiple attacks on BitcoinPlus, 0 defense from them, we are only seeing one side of this argument, and yet "nobody wants to listen to reason" ?   I think "nobody wants to admit that this isn't the best site, but scam is not the word for it", except in this case, nobody is most everybody.

I just wanted to have the owner clarify stuff, so everyone should just chilax a bit. Anyhow in my thread i clearly stated that in my humble opinion it was a scam. So i don't know what kind of agenda you nurture by defending that site so much (maybe you just like java mining a lot), or when it became unacceptable to have your own opinion. And BCPs problem is not with the technology, its a problem with the business model and policies that are made to retain your winnings for way too long and cut them by a large margin and are not communicated to the user. Believe me, if they stated that i takes two weeks to get only 0.01 btc they would have few customers, but at least they wouldn't be all pissed off.

Finally the fact that the owner has not responded, means he either doesn't care, or he is not a member of the community. Either case is bad.

ps. not to sound like a dick, but i wouldn't advertise a site in my signature unless it was at a decent functioning level. It needs some better design and it also crashed safari on my hackintosh. This creates some bad publicity that usually never goes away. Just send invites to friends for the testing.

[BitCoinBarter]

Having a visitor to a website compute a few hashes is a microtransaction far less objectionable than most ads, and it is far more reliable in terms of payout than an ad's click through rate.  Getting thousands of visitors a day to a website is what it takes to make BitCoinPlus work for you.

I don't know much about that (aside what I read in this thread), however it seems like BCP would be a good fit with websites (assuming they allow you to transfer BTC to yourself and let their visitors know what they are doing).

This is not why BCP is a scam. They are a scam because of how they treat individual users. Please read this thread for details.

User Error.

When I first read this, I thought that that was wrong. That is like blaming the victim for the crime. So wrong on so many levels.

Then I thought, maybe you are writing that the User Error belongs to BCP. Is that what you mean?

Are you blaming the victim or the person (i.e., BCP) who committed the crime?

When you, "...totally disagree that BitCoinPlus is a scam..." are you referring to that BCP only scams individual users and not websites?
Assuming that is true. They would mean that BCP is half a scam (assuming that have of all users of BCP are individual users).

Before answering, I want you to know that "Lying By Omission"* is a scam.

* Lying by omission is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception. See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission for more details.

[slamcore]

Then I thought, maybe you are writing that the User Error belongs to BCP. Is that what you mean?

What I really mean is "you are a fool."

[BitCoinBarter]

If you actually have a wallet to transfer to then you aren't THAT new. It is clear in the client settings that transactions  can have fees. The client clearly says:
Your beef is with the bitcoin itself not BitCoinPlus...

No. It is with BCP. Please read this thread (from the start) for details.

As I write this, BCP is still doing this to people as will still be doing it (They haven't stopped and show no intention of doing so) by the time you read this (my guess).

Anyone know if the current minimum amount that can be sent without a transaction fee anyways? Is it still .01 or has that lowered to .0005 as well as the minimum transaction fee?

Are you referring to BCP practices? If so, they are doing the same. I just tried to transfer BTC from them and was told that I could not because of a 0.01 transfer fee. If you want to see what I was shown, look at PandaMiner's post on July 01, 2011, 06:48:54 am.

Before you post and write that the lowered fee is only a couple of weeks old, give them time. This post was started on June 15, 2011, 02:43:53 am and BCP admits that BCP, "...should make it easier find out about the fee..." on an email on Jun 9, 2011 at 5:48 AM.

Yet still no change. They scam by using Lying by omission. Hoping that people would just give up so they can keep those BTC.
What else would you call it?

Lying by omission is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception. See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission for more details.

[BitCoinBarter]

What I really mean is "you are a fool."

This is why the BCP scam is so good.

Man I wish I wan't practicing the "Do No Evil" lifestyle. I would love to pull a BCP type of scam myself.

I would do some good (or at least make people think I'm doing some good). I would then scam (from a lot of people) little amounts. I would try not to scam the people who think I'm doing good.

Once people realize that they were scammed, they would not say much (if anything) because of the small amounts.

What if the scammed person says something?

Who knows, maybe someone will call them a fool and they will shut up.

Maybe someone will let them know that (after all) it was their fault for allowing themselves to be scammed. They should have known better.

[BitQuestr (BitCoinWorldMarket)]

Finally the fact that the owner has not responded, means he either doesn't care, or he is not a member of the community. Either case is bad.

Personally I think the impertinent expectation that every Bitcoin business owner scour the forum every single day for people trying to publicly air their complaints is unrealistic.

This business owner has responded via email to you (or the other user who has a similar thread), heard your suggestions, and because you didn't like the answer you posted that his business was a scam. Since he is not choosing to put further effort into posting on this forum he is instantly guilty?

Yes I think it would be wise for business owners to respond to complaints on the forum. It shows a lot of transparency, community involvement, and promotes trust. However every hour spent politely responding to "scam" complaints and derisive posts is an hour taken away from development for that business.

If we want to promote more people in and outside of this community to become merchants involved with bitcoin we have to create an environment where it doesn't feel like they are stepping into the ring with a thousand rabid dogs.

I have to admit I have a lot of anxieties opening up my own business next week and all the hours I will be spending scouring these boards providing replies to unfounded accusations and complaints. I haven't even done anything wrong yet but this is a very discouraging thought. While it is a motivation to operate at a high level of transparency and ethics, I would prefer that be through positive feedback rather than a fear of making an accidental misstep with communication to the community.

[Ekaros]

I wouldn't say it's a scam, unless they take your coins. Just because huge deflation before updating minium fee and not updating their practises up to lastest updates.

Issue is less on BCP and more on bitcoin it self. 0.01 fee was huge, and it's understandable that they can't pay it. Probably they could do something about these. Still issue is also with user for not finding out about inherit fees in the system.

Bottom line, not scam just badly run service. Once it steals your coins it's scam, not before. And just holding up because system hasn't allowed transfering isn't stealing...

[BitCoinBarter]

Just because huge deflation before updating minium fee and not updating their practises up to lastest updates.

Here is the thing. They do not list their practices. As such, they can do anything they like.
Does that not seem like a scam to you? Well it does to me and it is still happening as I write this.

They could say that for every 5.0 BTC you generate, they get 4.999 999 99. What is to stop them? Would it be a scam to you then?
 

Issue is less on BCP and more on bitcoin it self.

No it is with BCP.  Please read the thread from the start.

0.01 fee was huge, and it's understandable that they can't pay it. Probably they could do something about these.

Probably, that is kind of you. They could, however they won't.
They could stop scamming, however they won't.

What they could they do (about the fee) is to use JK's information (which is located within this thread):

The fee is per transaction, not per recipient. Assuming he's paying 10 people at a time out of a block he mined a few hours ago, he never would have to pay anywhere near .01 per recipient. Maybe it's a scam, but maybe he's just too lazy to group his transactions. If he keeps doing very small payouts from the same block, he's doing one transaction per payout and they're all going to be with newish coins.

Still issue is also with user for not finding out about inherit fees in the system.

Blaming the victim again (I see).

Ok, Assume (today) you go to BTC to generate BTC (remember I said assume). You (informed person that you are), know that the transaction fee is 0.0005. You were able to generate 0.11 in a day (it will take a lot longer then a day, however we are assuming).

You want to transfer 0.011 BTC (still assuming remember) and expect to pay 0.0005. You will find out that you could not because of a 0.01 fee which is because of the BTC network. You may think, wow I thought it was 0.0005.

Will you think it is a scam then? This is happening TODAY. Not just when I tried the first time. Not yesterday. Today.

The sad thing is that there are still people who use BCP to generate BTC. They do not know about the scam yet.

Bottom line, not scam just badly run service.

Hopefully you have read the whole thread (by now) and noticed that others agree with you. They will not say it is a scam. They use other words like badly run service. You say tomato...

In either case, what they are doing is wrong.

[BitCoinBarter]

Once it steals your coins it's scam, not before. And just holding up because system hasn't allowed transfering isn't stealing...

Okay, let's try an example. Say you put money into a bank.
Then you go to the bank to get your money (it is your money after all).

Bank: "I'm sorry, you can not get your money because of a fee."
You:  "What fee?  I don't know anything about a fee"
Bank: "Yes, it is industry standard. You should have known this before you came here."
You: "Where was I suppose to learn about this fee?"
Bank: "Any place but here. We only tell you about the fee when you are trying to get your money."
You: "Can you waive the fee?"
Bank: "No. We use to not charge it, however we changed our policy."
You: "How is policy made here?"
Bank: "We make it up as we feel."
You: "Is there someplace I can find out about your policies?"
Bank: "No."
You: "How can be know when your policies changes?"
Bank: "When it changes."
You: "Ok, what is the fee?" Banks tell you. You pullout your mobile computer (i.e., cellphone), check something and say, "Well, I just checked and industry standard is lower then what you quoted. Could you explain why you charge higher?"
Bank: "Could we help you with something else?"
You: You notice that your question wasn't answered and the bank is not going to do it.
You: "How do I know that you have my money?"
Bank: "You will have to trust us. Have we done anything that makes you to not trust us?"
You: Stare in disbelief .

Will this happen in your bank? No, your bank would disclose these to you.
It may be in small print and in a language you don't understand (legal writing), but it is disclosed.

If this did happen with your bank, I assume (could be wrong) that you would consider this a scam.

When this happens with BCP, you consider it a badly run service.

[BitcoinPorn]

Man I wish I wan't practicing the "Do No Evil" lifestyle. I would love to pull a BCP type of scam myself.

Do No Evil 2.0.  Now includes functioning evil in the form of attacks on a website that has old information posted.


I have something everyone can discuss and maybe something useful and actually positive can come from this thread...

Since this thread has started up, we all know BCP has erroneous information, how long before (even myself) has to recognize "Okay guys, what is up, why are you not updated this web site?"   No matter what 'side' you are on, in this thread, one fact remains, BCP could use an update, not that they have to, but it could use one.   

Now BitCoinBarter, I am going to assume the time frame for you and this situation has come and gone, but please feel free to step back from this situation, look at all sides, and then answer honestly please.   I will say this is hard to gauge based on 'how much does BCP deserve to make for offering this service, hosting the site, etc' on top of there is little to nothing known about 'staff' size or what other projects he is behind that may also be occupying his site.

[mog]

Caveat emptor  is the lesson you should be learning from this. Scam is a harsh word for not doing your homework before hand , asking around or just making an adequete decision. Just be happy you lost a few fractions of a coin.

[BitCoinBarter]

This my seem off topic, however it you have read this thread, you will see how it is not.

I imagine something like this in the future.

Little Kid runs up to his Grandparents house and rings the bell. Grandma opens the door. Little Kid gives her a big hug and ask where is Granddad. Grandma tells him and Little Kid runs to Granddad. Granddad is sitting.

Little Kid:  "Granddad, Granddad! Tell me again about the start of BitCoin and how you got rich. Please Granddad, please!"
Grandma: Overhearing, "Don't pester your Granddad about that."
Granddad: "It's okay, Ma. I never get tired talking about that." He shifts in his chair while the Little Kid sits at is feet. He looks straight ahead at something The Kid can not see. He is looking at the past.
Granddad: "It was in 2011.  You were not born then. It was a different time. We had our first black president, his name was..."
Little Kid: Interrupts, "Granddad. That is wrong. You don't call them black, you call them..."
Granddad: Interrupts sternly, "Wasn't I talking, you know better."
Little Kid: In a small voice, "Sorry."
Granddad: "Okay." Rubs the Little Kids head, "Don't let it happen again... Now, where was I?.... I remember. It was in 2010. I had a something called  a website." He smiles, "those were good times. Very good times." He coughs.
Little Kid: "Want me to get you some water?"
Granddad: "No thanks... Well I had this website that people came to" Granddad smiles while remembering, "and I was in the Bitcoin business. I was scamming people from here to Sunday."
Little Kid: "Didn't those suckers know they were getting scammed?"
Granddad: "Not at first. Once they did, they stopped being scammed."
Little Kid: "Wasn't that bad for you?"
Granddad: "You would think so. However for each one scammed person that quit, two more took his place!"
Little Kid: "Really!?!"
Granddad: "Really!"
Little Kid: "But what about the scammed people who stopped. Didn't they try to warn the new people?"
Granddad: "Yes. however this is the great part of the scam. I only scammed a little from each person"
Litlle Kid: Looking confused, "But if you only got a little, how did you get rich?"
Granddad: Gently Grasping the Little Kid's face and turned it to him so they were face to face, "Listen carefully, a little bit from a lot of people is a lot."
Little Kid: Talking slowly, "Okay. But what happened when the scammed people tried to warn others about the scam?"
Granddad: "Ooo. This is the good part. When they tried to tell people, they were told that it was their fault for getting scammed!"
Little Kid: "That doesn't sound right"
Granddad: Smiling, "It was crazy times."
Little Kid: "I love that story granddad. Wow, look at the time. Mom will be here soon. Can I get some BitCoins?"
Granddad: "Sure" Then Granddad transferred some Bitcoins in a way that people in 2010 and 2011 would envy.
Grandma: After The Kid left, "You know you were played for your Bitcoins, right?"
GrandDad: "Yea."
Grandma: "Do you also remember that I had a website and I scammed more people then you?"
Granddad: "Yea, that is why I married you." Then moved in for a kiss.
Grandma: Smiling, "Those were some good times." and allows herself to be  kissed.

[saykor]

The idea of BitCoinPlus is to use in your sites. If you have a many sites then make your traffic in a miners. It is not to open the browser and stay on it to make a money. If you want this you will make more with CPU mining than BitCoinPlus.

[BitCoinBarter]

Hi BP,

Off topic:
I have my own type of short hand. My first mind is to give you the short hand of BCP
I find it odd that handle is the same one I give BitCoin Plus.

Also I thought you were not going to post to me on this thread. I could be mistaken:

I assure you I am not jumping into your sadness further with discussing things[...]

Do No Evil 2.0.  Now includes functioning evil in the form of attacks on a website that has old information posted.

I would like to ask you what you mean by this. However I notice that you do not answer (or only half answer) my questions, so I'll refrain.

I would say this. Everything I post I believe. I try to make some of it funny, however the meaning is clear (I hope).

-BCP (not you, I am calling you BP remember) scammed me and others. Read this thread for details.
-BCP is still doing it.
-They are doing it with "Lying By Omission". Lying by omission is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception. See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission for more details.

I have something everyone can discuss and maybe something useful and actually positive can come from this thread...

I hope to let everyone know that BCP is a scam in hopes that the word gets out and no one goes there without knowing how they do things.

Isn't that positive. That people should know what to expect and get it when they visit a site.  I know, you disagree with me on that.

Since this thread has started up, we all know BCP has erroneous information,

If this is because of this thread, then the word is getting out. Could you help by spreading it? You spreading this info should not effect your financial ties with BCP.

how long before (even myself) has to recognize "Okay guys, what is up, why are you not updated this web site?"   

Answer. They are scamming people. See the Lying By Omission definition above.

BCP could use an update, not that they have to [...]

I disagree. Not that they have to. By law they should. In the U.S., every company that deals with exchanging money with the public requires disclosure. Granted I am not a lawyer (so I could be wrong). BitCoin is money, so the same rules should apply.

how much does BCP deserve to make for offering this service

I hope that is your question.
The easy answer is how much the market can bear (i.e., As much as they can).

I do not consider the other things you mentioned. e.g., cost of hosting the site, size of the staff, etc. The fact is that I never think of these things when I go to a site. I go to a site to do things. (e.g., Going to Google to look up something). I assume the owner of the site has that covered. Since you have a site (I believe that to be true), you may think more about those things. Since I don't have a site, those thoughts do not cross my mind.

In short, I do not care if BCP makes a lot of money. As long as it is legal and they explain how they do things (you could tell where this could go).

Did that answer your question?

[BitCoinBarter]

The idea of BitCoinPlus is to use in your sites. If you have a many sites then make your traffic in a miners. It is not to open the browser and stay on it to make a money. If you want this you will make more with CPU mining than BitCoinPlus.

Thank you for the information.

Could you provide a link from (BCP) to me that explains this?

[Eri]

Link to other thread complaining about the same thing ->  http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=25110.0

oh and to note, None of the other miners work for me, or they want me to install some 'stuff', I'm all for taking risks but i don't like the idea of screwing with my hardware by changing software or adding 'extras' that may affect my overall performance. wasn't till a few days ago i decided to try ufasoft which works so much better.

[Test Bank Guy]

With all of this bitching in this thread going on... can someone make a competing website that has a plugin for wordpress, blogger, SMF, etc so that community users can mine bitcoins for us and charge a lesser fee?  If I was smart enough with coding I would do this, and blow bitcoinplus out of the water.  However I am not, and no other viable option is available so I will keep using BC+.   The great part about capitalism is that if no competing products are available, you can pretty much charge whatever you want...

[BitcoinPorn]

With all of this bitching in this thread going on... can someone make a competing website that has a plugin for wordpress, blogger, SMF, etc so that community users can mine bitcoins for us and charge a lesser fee?  If I was smart enough with coding I would do this, and blow bitcoinplus out of the water.  However I am not, and no other viable option is available so I will keep using BC+.   The great part about capitalism is that if no competing products are available, you can pretty much charge whatever you want...

Exactly.

The only competition was Bitp.it and those guys run and pool and are no longer doing this, I swear their code was open source though, just too lazy find it.

There is, or was, also BitJam http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11549.0

I await any competition as well, the technology is too good of a concept where even if it is abused by both websites and users (as I feel I see in this thread), it will still continue on for the people who see how it can be used properly (and of course for gain).

[Eri]

With all of this bitching in this thread going on... can someone make a competing website that has a plugin for wordpress, blogger, SMF, etc so that community users can mine bitcoins for us and charge a lesser fee?  If I was smart enough with coding I would do this, and blow bitcoinplus out of the water.  However I am not, and no other viable option is available so I will keep using BC+.   The great part about capitalism is that if no competing products are available, you can pretty much charge whatever you want...

its not so much 'bitching' as having to explain the exact same thing over and over again because people fail to read the thread.

check out http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=16125.0 and download the ufasoft miner, it works without having to install anything. I've been using https://www.btcguild.com/ as the pool it connects too. its *so* much more efficient.