[Group Buy#1] Avalon ASICs CHIPS! Using JohnK as escrow! FINISHED!

[bigbeninlondon]

hey guys,

Let's make one thing clear... I do NOT have the BTC from this group buy. I never did. JohnK was the escrow and he has everything. He will be around soon, I don't know where he went. I do not have the chips from this group buy either .... that's why we are being refunded.

except for the sample chips... Can you pay for john k's escrow fee/ the people who took over since you kinda failed as a group buy organizer...

That's not how it works, Noitev. You are paying JohnK's escrow fee, because you are now getting the full force of his protection.

Agreed.  There were two participants; Raging the group buy coordinator and Raging the chip purchaser.  The group buy coordinator has already conceded that he doesn't deserve his group buy coordinator fee.  But the chip purchaser shouldn't have to pay the full fee of the escrow; that was something we paid for our protection.  John K is now providing us a service of coordinating the refund.  Not sure why people believe Raging should pay the escrow fee TOO.

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[bigbeninlondon]

I did not steal anything. Prodigits7 has the 32 sample chips. I have a recording of him saying he has it as well. I am in the same situation as everyone else right now.

You also need to be careful with prodigits7. He's not who he says he is. He claimed to have made Avalon Clones. I met up with him and he showed me a few parts but not a fully working one. I was stupid enough to believe him. I have all his lies recorded. Thank god I didn't trust him to receive the KnCMiner refunds. Who knows what he would have done. Anyway, I am refunding people from my other group buy right now.

Well then why the FUCK did he have "NEO-ASICS" as his avatar and why the FUCK did you let him continue to operate as your proxy when you knew there was something up and felt the need to record him?  This is some serious fishy bullshit raging.  I hope you understand how fucking crazy this sounds.  How do you know he's not who he says he is?  What did he lie about?  How did you come to know that he was lying?  Seriously?  Why are you choosing now to release this?  How long did you have this information before you decided to cue us in as this guy you don't trust paraded about trying to make deals with people using YOUR assembly business' name? 

[Noitev]

I did not steal anything. Prodigits7 has the 32 sample chips. I have a recording of him saying he has it as well. I am in the same situation as everyone else right now.

You also need to be careful with prodigits7. He's not who he says he is. He claimed to have made Avalon Clones. I met up with him and he showed me a few parts but not a fully working one. I was stupid enough to believe him. I have all his lies recorded. Thank god I didn't trust him to receive the KnCMiner refunds. Who knows what he would have done. Anyway, I am refunding people from my other group buy right now.

hey guys,

Let's make one thing clear... I do NOT have the BTC from this group buy. I never did. JohnK was the escrow and he has everything. He will be around soon, I don't know where he went. I do not have the chips from this group buy either .... that's why we are being refunded.

except for the sample chips... Can you pay for john k's escrow fee/ the people who took over since you kinda failed as a group buy organizer...

That's not how it works, Noitev. You are paying JohnK's escrow fee, because you are now getting the full force of his protection.

Im aware and appreciate john ks existence, Im just saying raging more or less blatantly tried to steal our chips (he stole 20 already) and since we did everything to prevent it, he wants his entire share back as a fallback. Isn't it suspicious that he's never on, except when money is at stake for him? we paid for john k. to prevent exactly what he did, and now that we have some of his funds, I think it's only fair we subtract johns fee from raging's investment.

Also, as much as I love John k, we resorted to having to use group buy members to facilitate the transaction/cancellation. I understand both sides of the argument, namely that raging is saying "The price is 1.5% higher so that if I scam you, you get your money back." but when he actually does, isn't it fair that he pay for the 1.5%? I understand it could have very well have been a poor set of circumstances and that he might not have tried to scam us, but my opinion is totally opposed to that when he magically becomes healthy enough to post on the forums, something he was incapable of doing while he had control of over 50,000 dollars in hardware coming to him and had endless queries asking chip statuses. The only time he ever posted was when he was in serious risk of losing his chips

-just moved in to my house, that's why I was gone, relax
-death in the family, sorry Im still ok to do this
-therapist told me to separate myself from the internet, everything is still fine
-Oh there's a refund? ok, give me all my money back then...

Obviously he doesn't deserve the 1% so he's not going to argue for that, but he'll be damned if he comes out of this with less than what he put in after all the work he's gone through failing to scam us. I was ok with all of this so far, since I talked to prodigits a few times on skype. That was until raging said he gave the sample chips that were decidedly not his to prodigits7, a personal friend of his he wants to repay for doing damage control on his kncminer groupbuy. I'd value the chips at over 4 btc total since they were shipped months ago. So if raging feels like he can pay prodigits, why not pay the people doing damage control here? I honestly wouldn't really care if raging would just pay for the 1.5% escrow fee, but he's gonna try to profit on this failed groupbuy by double dipping in the chips and the full amount of the refund? screw that.

Your shit never made sense to me logically. According to you, you gave him chips even though you didn't ever trust him. you absolutely need to subtract the 32 chips from YOUR share since it was your dumb ass who gave it to him.

[ragingazn628]

I did trusted him FULLY until a few days ago. I have recordings of everything. He even convinced me to have the KnCMiner refunds (over $30,000) wire to his bank account (an account of which was made for NEO ASICS according to him). Luckily I trusted my gut and had the transfer cancelled and now I am handling the refunds. He said he was helping me but I caught him with lies after lies. Anyway. No need to explain myself. We are all just waiting for Avalon Refunds and that's that. Again I am terribly sorry for all this. I do not want my 1% fee. I do not deserve it.

[bigbeninlondon]

I did trusted him FULLY until a few days ago. I have recordings of everything. He even convinced me to have the KnCMiner refunds (over $30,000) wire to his bank account (an account of which was made for NEO ASICS according to him). Luckily I trusted my gut and had the transfer cancelled and now I am handling the refunds. He said he was helping me but I caught him with lies after lies.

If you trusted him, and sent him our chips, and he made off with them, then that's your fault for placing our chips in his hands.  I'd get behind deducting 32 sample chips worth from your total.  We even agreed to send 8 to BKKCoins.  What ever happened to those?

Anyway. No need to explain myself.

There definitely is need to explain yourself.  32 sample chips are missing from this group buy.  You lost them.  You should pay for them.

[erschiessen]

Did bkk ever receive the sample chips from this group buy?

I seem to recall that the sample chips were 'stuck in customs' for months.

IIRC, ragingazn touted prodigits early on as not only a business partner, but friend.

How convenient that ragingazn is now blaming someone else for attempted scamming.


Please refund to the address in my sig line.
Thank you, johnk.

[ragingazn628]

I did trusted him FULLY until a few days ago. I have recordings of everything. He even convinced me to have the KnCMiner refunds (over $30,000) wire to his bank account (an account of which was made for NEO ASICS according to him). Luckily I trusted my gut and had the transfer cancelled and now I am handling the refunds. He said he was helping me but I caught him with lies after lies.

If you trusted him, and sent him our chips, and he made off with them, then that's your fault for placing our chips in his hands.  I'd get behind deducting 32 sample chips worth from your total.  We even agreed to send 8 to BKKCoins.  What ever happened to those?

Anyway. No need to explain myself.

There definitely is need to explain yourself.  32 sample chips are missing from this group buy.  You lost them.  You should pay for them.

These were sample chips. Not part of 10,000 chips. I have proof that prodigits7 have the sample chips.

[bigbeninlondon]

And where did you receive permission from the majority of the group buy to give said chips to prodigits7?

That was a decision YOU made, WITHOUT our consent.  You said "I need them for my assembly".  Then you gave them away, and didn't use them for the purpose you stated you were going to use them.  How do you think you are absolved of that responsibility by giving them to someone NONE of us have ever heard of?

I believe we should deduct 30 chips from your total and redistribute it proportionally to each chip owner, and the onus should rest on you to recover them and sell them for whatever you can get for them.

How is this not fair?

[Vycid]

And where did you receive permission from the majority of the group buy to give said chips to prodigits7?

That was a decision YOU made, WITHOUT our consent.  You said "I need them for my assembly".  Then you gave them away, and didn't use them for the purpose you stated you were going to use them.  How do you think you are absolved of that responsibility by giving them to someone NONE of us have ever heard of?

I believe we should deduct 30 chips from your total and redistribute it proportionally to each chip owner, and the onus should rest on you to recover them and sell them for whatever you can get for them.

How is this not fair?

I agree that those chips were group property, and raging does not deny that he appropriated them. Payment for those chips seems very reasonable, especially given how timely they were.

[nebiz]

And where did you receive permission from the majority of the group buy to give said chips to prodigits7?

That was a decision YOU made, WITHOUT our consent.  You said "I need them for my assembly".  Then you gave them away, and didn't use them for the purpose you stated you were going to use them.  How do you think you are absolved of that responsibility by giving them to someone NONE of us have ever heard of?

I believe we should deduct 30 chips from your total and redistribute it proportionally to each chip owner, and the onus should rest on you to recover them and sell them for whatever you can get for them.

How is this not fair?

I agree that those chips were group property, and raging does not deny that he appropriated them. Payment for those chips seems very reasonable, especially given how timely they were.

I hate to defend anyone in this thread because you are all a bunch of wolves out looking for something to take a bite out of.

In fact, I was going to defend someone, but I am not going to after that sentence. Get over it. You know the math, you know JohnK doesn't care what you say, he'll refund the escrow per the original terms.

Stop wasting your time, people.

[Noitev]

And where did you receive permission from the majority of the group buy to give said chips to prodigits7?

That was a decision YOU made, WITHOUT our consent.  You said "I need them for my assembly".  Then you gave them away, and didn't use them for the purpose you stated you were going to use them.  How do you think you are absolved of that responsibility by giving them to someone NONE of us have ever heard of?

I believe we should deduct 30 chips from your total and redistribute it proportionally to each chip owner, and the onus should rest on you to recover them and sell them for whatever you can get for them.

How is this not fair?

I agree that those chips were group property, and raging does not deny that he appropriated them. Payment for those chips seems very reasonable, especially given how timely they were.

I hate to defend anyone in this thread because you are all a bunch of wolves out looking for something to take a bite out of.

In fact, I was going to defend someone, but I am not going to after that sentence. Get over it. You know the math, you know JohnK doesn't care what you say, he'll refund the escrow per the original terms.

Stop wasting your time, people.

What exactly is the problem here? he stole 32 chips from us, if you just deduct it from his share and add it to the pot, then everyone (including raging) gets a discount equivalent their stake in the sample chips.

[Vycid]

And where did you receive permission from the majority of the group buy to give said chips to prodigits7?

That was a decision YOU made, WITHOUT our consent.  You said "I need them for my assembly".  Then you gave them away, and didn't use them for the purpose you stated you were going to use them.  How do you think you are absolved of that responsibility by giving them to someone NONE of us have ever heard of?

I believe we should deduct 30 chips from your total and redistribute it proportionally to each chip owner, and the onus should rest on you to recover them and sell them for whatever you can get for them.

How is this not fair?

I agree that those chips were group property, and raging does not deny that he appropriated them. Payment for those chips seems very reasonable, especially given how timely they were.

I hate to defend anyone in this thread because you are all a bunch of wolves out looking for something to take a bite out of.

In fact, I was going to defend someone, but I am not going to after that sentence. Get over it. You know the math, you know JohnK doesn't care what you say, he'll refund the escrow per the original terms.

Stop wasting your time, people.

What exactly is the problem here? he stole 32 chips from us, if you just deduct it from his share and add it to the pot, then everyone (including raging) gets a discount equivalent their stake in the sample chips.

Can we drop the polarizing language? We don't need to say raging stole the chips. We don't know that. What we know is that raging was responsible for the loss of 32 chips of group property.

I hate to even bother with such a trifling sum of money, especially since emotions are clearly so high, but I do think that raging should be financially responsible for those chips. If he had distributed them with the group's permission he would not be.

Raging: please understand that we didn't trust prodigits7. You did. And you unilaterally (and against the group's wishes) acted to give the chips to him. You alone are responsible for their loss, and therefore for remunerating their fair value to the group.

(Proof that the group wanted the chips to go to BKKCoins: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177994.1060)

[bigbeninlondon]

Spreading his 32 chips out would net every chip owner 0.0002565288 / chip.

If we leave it be (considering those chips were gratis), it won't affect me very much.  It just irks the dogshit out of me that Raging can show up NOW, when it's time to get the money back.  I was also very suspicious when he started talking about sample chips and allocating them how he wanted, instead of getting feedback from the group, as evidenced by my recent quotes.  So nebiz, I'm not looking for "someone" to take a bite out of, I am particularly pissed off at Raging for playing loose with the gratis chips, and I was upset about it when it happened.  I'm also kind of peeved that he can find time to be active in this thread when his money is threatened, but was always so absent prior to this.

I just want out of this clusterfuck, as fast as possible.

John K, what do you need to facilitate the starting of refunds?  I'm more than willing to assist with some legwork to get things moving.

[ragingazn628]

Alright instead of bickering with each other, let's reorganize everything so people can get their money back faster.

My spreadsheet for KnCMiner proved quite effective with refunding people. So I will start the same. JohnK will be given permission to edit the spreadsheet once he gets the refund from Avalon back. This is because refunds will go to JohnK and he will be the one redistributing the funds.

Please use this form to get the refund process started for John.K when he gets back.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1k0Yn9Sc7pOlzI5DgsglLdqfaijLkVihAXUDgM4XpCwo/viewform

[bigbeninlondon]

Alright instead of bickering with each other, let's reorganize everything so people can get their money back faster.

My spreadsheet for KnCMiner proved quite effective with refunding people. So I will start the same. JohnK will be given permission to edit the spreadsheet once he gets the refund from Avalon back. This is because refunds will go to JohnK and he will be the one redistributing the funds.

Please use this form to get the refund process started for John.K when he gets back.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1k0Yn9Sc7pOlzI5DgsglLdqfaijLkVihAXUDgM4XpCwo/viewform

We already did this.  I've created a spreadsheet based on trades to document chip ownership and redphlegm made a form to fill out for return addresses.  This is kind of why we are upset with you; we had to jump in and get shit moving when you decided it wasn't worth your time.  We are not bickering with each other.  I think we are all upset with how you've handled things and are upset with you in particular.

[Noitev]

Alright instead of bickering with each other, let's reorganize everything so people can get their money back faster.

My spreadsheet for KnCMiner proved quite effective with refunding people. So I will start the same. JohnK will be given permission to edit the spreadsheet once he gets the refund from Avalon back. This is because refunds will go to JohnK and he will be the one redistributing the funds.

Please use this form to get the refund process started for John.K when he gets back.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1k0Yn9Sc7pOlzI5DgsglLdqfaijLkVihAXUDgM4XpCwo/viewform

you don't understand. We're mad because WE DID THIS ALREADY. You didn't deserve to do what you pleased with those chips and we aren't comping them to you for work in organizing refunds or whatever because people in the thread did this already! I don't trust you with funds/ payment addresses so I'm leaving it to john k.

As for the 32 chips, this may sound small but to big investors like me it does matter, plus I'll take a bit of solace knowing you don't come out positive.

Ragingazn, the best thing you can do is admit you screwed up, forfeit the 32 chips you gave to prodigits (I'll give up asking for the 1.5% fee for escrow). and walk away like you have done 90% of the time this group buy was going on.

[ragingazn628]

What's the main form to fill out then?

[bigbeninlondon]

Here's the chip tracking sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApT7WUJuJCwMdEhFX2UxbF9Nd0xydmhnUUJiZVBLVlE#gid=0

Here's the refund request sheet:

Here is the form for refund / chip transfer tracking:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Db9Xx8NYvjnq-Pm7MmuVgWauTP1qSaFRyemI_sa5DkA/viewform

PS: Thanks for muddying up the waters again.  These are the only two forms that should be relied on.  You have PM'd people to fill out YET ANOTHER form without reading through the posts.  Jeez man.  We got it from here.

All, please ignore RagingAzn's form.  redphlegm has already had people fill out his sheet and to try and coordinate another form will just confuse the whole process, and potentially leave someone out who has already filled out a form and may not be watching this thread closely.  Use this form only:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Db9Xx8NYvjnq-Pm7MmuVgWauTP1qSaFRyemI_sa5DkA/viewform

[Egon]

Since for whatever reason (despite voicing my discontent at the time) this group buy used "chips per bitcoin" instead of a fixed price of "bitcoins per chip" (chips aren't divisible, bitcoins are...) as the dividing metric, I calculate that the original cost was 0.08016525 BTC per chip.  This included escrow fees at 1.5% to JohnK, chip shipping costs from Avalon, ragin's 1%, but NOT redistribution shipping from ragin to buyers as that was to be paid individually to ragin at a later date.

782.1 BTC * 1.025 (1 percent for ragingazn628 and 1.5 percent for johnk ) = 801.6525 for one order

801.6525 / 10000 = 0.08016525 per chip

Ragin is (rightfully) forfeiting his escrow fee of 1%

John K's escrow fee is therefore 782.1 * 0.015 = 11.7315 BTC

Ragin's fee (returned to the group is) 782.1 * 0.01 = 7.821 BTC

Refund available is therefore 782.1 (chips plus shipping) +  7.821 (Ragin's share) = 789.921 BTC available for refund

Math check: 801.6525 (collected) - 11.7315 (JohnK's fee) = 789.921 (check)

(no sample chips accounted for in the calculation; at time of purchase this wasn't indicated as part of the deal...)

Refund issued per chip is thusly 789.921 / 10000 = 0.0789921 BTC per chip

This should be issued to all present documented chip holders in the group.  Cost variance from after the fact sales amongst group members should not be accounted for as the sale constitutes a transfer of risk, and would make the refund entirely too complicated to process.

[bigbeninlondon]

Since for whatever reason (despite voicing my discontent at the time) this group buy used "chips per bitcoin" instead of a fixed price of "bitcoins per chip" (chips aren't divisible, bitcoins are...) as the dividing metric, I calculate that the original cost was 0.08016525 BTC per chip.  This included escrow fees at 1.5% to JohnK, chip shipping costs from Avalon, ragin's 1%, but NOT redistribution shipping from ragin to buyers as that was to be paid individually to ragin at a later date.

782.1 BTC * 1.025 (1 percent for ragingazn628 and 1.5 percent for johnk ) = 801.6525 for one order

801.6525 / 10000 = 0.08016525 per chip

Ragin is (rightfully) forfeiting his escrow fee of 1%

John K's escrow fee is therefore 782.1 * 0.015 = 11.7315 BTC

Ragin's fee (returned to the group is) 782.1 * 0.01 = 7.821 BTC

Refund available is therefore 782.1 (chips plus shipping) +  7.821 (Ragin's share) = 789.921 BTC available for refund

Math check: 801.6525 (collected) - 11.7315 (JohnK's fee) = 789.921 (check)

(no sample chips accounted for in the calculation; at time of purchase this wasn't indicated as part of the deal...)

Refund issued per chip is thusly 789.921 / 10000 = 0.0789921 BTC per chip

This should be issued to all present documented chip holders in the group.  Cost from after the fact sales amongst group members should not be accounted for as the sale constitutes a transfer of risk, and would make the refund entirely too complicated to process.

Your math checks out.  Please double check I got it right on the chip count sheet. 

Also, I fully agree that second party sales prices will not and should not be considered.