Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[janos666]

"As part of a civil forfeiture proceeding, Ulbricht and the government in January reached a deal in which the bitcoins on his hardware would be sold, with the proceeds to be held pending the outcome of his case."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/17/us-bitcoin-auction-idUSKCN0J11UJ20141117

This actually means that DPR wants his coins sold at as low of a price as possible.

The money at stake is the prize which the prosecutors are competing for, and to maximize his chance of regaining his freedom he'd want their incentive to be as low as possible.

I never understood how these US Marsals can auction these coins before at least one court officially finds him guilty. Is it normal in the US to sell these kind of assets before the end of the trial?
"Hey, I prooved I am innocent, so I can finally go home ... oh wait, they sold my house and took the money. Well... I won! Yeah..." Strange.

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[NotLambchop]

So you've already convicted Mr. Dread?
Or is it just poor reading comprehension?

If course it was a typo. I was thinking about your post and Miz4r's post at the same time.

Whether or not Ross is DPR, and whether or not he's committed any crimes, the prosecutors have a very strong financial incentive to convict him.

Their only goal is to convict him(*) - not to determine the truth of his guilt.

Knowing this, Ross should know that minimizing the financial incentive they have to push for his conviction is in his best interests, so he'd want the coins they seized from him to be sold as cheaply as possible.

* Well-known features of the US court system

The aim of the prosecuting attorney is to convict, as it should be.  Just as the aim of a defence attorney is to acquit.*

* Well-known features of the US court system

[JorgeStolfi]

You really think the FBI talked to DPR and discussed with him whether now would be a good time to sell? They sell now because they can, the FBI are no speculators and they certainly didn't ask for DPR's permission first.

Actually they did talk with Ross (not clear on whose initiative) and both agreeed to sell.  The FBI still cannot sell those coins on their own, it is not yet decided whether they belong to Ross or to SilkRoad.  If they belong to Ross, they would have to wait for the verdict on Ross's trial.

[NotLambchop]

"As part of a civil forfeiture proceeding, Ulbricht and the government in January reached a deal in which the bitcoins on his hardware would be sold, with the proceeds to be held pending the outcome of his case."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/17/us-bitcoin-auction-idUSKCN0J11UJ20141117

This actually means that DPR wants his coins sold at as low of a price as possible.

The money at stake is the prize which the prosecutors are competing for, and to maximize his chance of regaining his freedom he'd want their incentive to be as low as possible.

I never understood how these US Marsals can auction these coins before at least one court officially finds him guilty. Is it normal in the US to sell these kind of assets before the end of your trial?
"Hey, I prooved I am innocent, so I can finally go home ... oh wait, they sold my house and took the money. Well... yeah..." Strange.

There is ugly shit called "civil forfeiture", but this isn't it.  Presumably, Ulbricht is entitled to the proceeds of the sale if found innocent.

[cbeast]

So you've already convicted Mr. Dread?
Or is it just poor reading comprehension?

If course it was a typo. I was thinking about your post and Miz4r's post at the same time.

Whether or not Ross is DPR, and whether or not he's committed any crimes, the prosecutors have a very strong financial incentive to convict him.

Their only goal is to convict him(*) - not to determine the truth of his guilt.

Knowing this, Ross should know that minimizing the financial incentive they have to push for his conviction is in his best interests, so he'd want the coins they seized from him to be sold as cheaply as possible.

* Well-known features of the US "adversarial" court system

And of course it is the reverse onus for Ross to sue to get his money back after being acquitted. And then he may face civil court for wrongful citizenship by living in a country that treats everyone like criminals. Ok, the last one is hyperbole, but not far from reality.

[JorgeStolfi]

The money at stake is the prize which the prosecutors are competing for, and to maximize his chance of regaining his freedom he'd want their incentive to be as low as possible.

You are joking, right?

[justusranvier]

I never understood how these US Marsals can auction these coins before at least one court officially finds him guilty. Is it normal in the US to sell these kind of assets before the end of the trial?
"Hey, I prooved I am innocent, so I can finally go home ... oh wait, they sold my house and took the money. Well... I won! Yeah..." Strange.

It makes sense when you understand that the use law enforcement apparatus is a machine that turns crime into profit.

It's goal is to extract money from its victims and disburse that money to its beneficiaries.

Direct victims are the people from whom theft is socially acceptable ("criminals").

Indirect victims are the people from whom theft is not socially acceptable, but who can be convinced to accept a protection racket which defends them from the "criminals".

Beneficiaries are the employees of the system, the contractors who supply them, and the customers who can hire out their services in order to attack their rivals.

[NotLambchop]

I never understood how these US Marsals can auction these coins before at least one court officially finds him guilty. Is it normal in the US to sell these kind of assets before the end of the trial?
"Hey, I prooved I am innocent, so I can finally go home ... oh wait, they sold my house and took the money. Well... I won! Yeah..." Strange.

It makes sense when you understand that the use law enforcement apparatus is a machine that turns crime into profit.

It's goal is to extract money from its victims and disburse that money to its beneficiaries.

Direct victims are the people from whom theft is socially acceptable ("criminals").

Indirect victims are the people from whom theft is not socially acceptable, but who can be convinced to accept a protection racket which defends them from the "criminals".

Beneficiaries are the employees of the system, the contractors who supply them, and the customers who can hire out their services in order to attack their rivals.

And that, kids, is why US prisons are so disproportionately blacks/minorities.  Because wealthy

[redsn0w]

What ?

[jonoiv]

No big moves during the night.

So boring.


Was expecting something

hopefully it will get moving in the next few mins.

[JorgeStolfi]

I never understood how these US Marsals can auction these coins before at least one court officially finds him guilty. Is it normal in the US to sell these kind of assets before the end of the trial?

The first lot was found on the SilkRoad server, so it could be auctioned right away.  Ross claims that the coins in his laptop are his personal property that he got from other legal activities; so that lot has to wait a court decision.   (Even if those coins did not come from SilkRoad, if he is found guilty of operating it he may have to turn them in as fines.)

[justusranvier]

And that, kids, is why US prisons are so disproportionately blacks/minorities.  Because wealthy

And here I though you understood reading comprehension, since you just brought it up a minute ago.

[Tzupy]

You really think the FBI talked to DPR and discussed with him whether now would be a good time to sell? They sell now because they can, the FBI are no speculators and they certainly didn't ask for DPR's permission first.

Actually they did talk with Ross (not clear on whose initiative) and both agreed to sell.  The FBI still cannot sell those coins on their own, it is not yet decided whether they belong to Ross or to SilkRoad.  If they belong to Ross, they would have to wait for the verdict on Ross's trial.

Exactly, but probably Miz4r didn't bother to read the document.

As for the silly "as low of a price as possible", of course it doesn't make sense, DPR wants the best possible price (short term).
Probably after looking at the market he decided to average his cash out. If the market will recover soon, he will refrain from selling the other 100k, if not... .

[NotLambchop]

What ?
...

Mr. justusranvier feels that US judicial system is primarily motivated by asset forfeiture, which clearly explains why US jails are disproportionately black.  Because black people are disproportionately rich, thus worth convicting

[cbeast]

And that, kids, is why US prisons are so disproportionately blacks/minorities.  Because wealthy

And here I though you understood reading comprehension, since you just brought it up a minute ago.

In fact, I doubt Ross will do any time. White people with money rarely get convicted after asset forfeiture. That's partly why so many prisons are fill with poor black folks. 

[Miz4r]

You really think the FBI talked to DPR and discussed with him whether now would be a good time to sell? They sell now because they can, the FBI are no speculators and they certainly didn't ask for DPR's permission first.

Actually they did talk with Ross (not clear on whose initiative) and both agreeed to sell.  The FBI still cannot sell those coins on their own, it is not yet decided whether they belong to Ross or to SilkRoad.  If they belong to Ross, they would have to wait for the verdict on Ross's trial.

I stand corrected then, thanks. Still the point stands that Ross and the FBI aren't speculators, Ross probably agreed with it because even at the price today they are worth a hell of a lot more than when he got them so why not auction them off? It's unlikely Ross will be planning to get back into the SR business and BTC if he is declared innocent, he will probably be happy with just the cash without worrying about the volatility of Bitcoin.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[NotLambchop]

And that, kids, is why US prisons are so disproportionately blacks/minorities.  Because wealthy

And here I though you understood reading comprehension, since you just brought it up a minute ago.

[bobabouey2]

You really think the FBI talked to DPR and discussed with him whether now would be a good time to sell? They sell now because they can, the FBI are no speculators and they certainly didn't ask for DPR's permission first.

Actually they did talk with Ross (not clear on whose initiative) and both agreeed to sell.  The FBI still cannot sell those coins on their own, it is not yet decided whether they belong to Ross or to SilkRoad.  If they belong to Ross, they would have to wait for the verdict on Ross's trial.

I stand corrected then, thanks. Still the point stands that Ross and the FBI aren't speculators, Ross probably agreed with it because even at the price today they are worth a hell of a lot more than when he got them so why not auction them off? It's unlikely Ross will be planning to get back into the SR business and BTC if he is declared innocent, he will probably be happy with just the cash without worrying about the volatility of Bitcoin.

They agreed back on January 27, 2014 to sell based on volatility risk.  "WHEREAS, the government and Ulbricht agree that, due to the volatile market for bitcoins, the Computer Hardware Bitcoins risk losing value during the pendency of the forfeiture proceedings;"  http://www.usmarshals.gov/assets/2014/dpr-bitcoins/order.pdf

Having agreed to permit government to sell back in January, the government no longer needs any further agreement from Ross to sell.  Same link:  "1. The United States and Ulbricht agree that the United States may, at its sole discretion, sell any portion or all of the Computer Hardware Bitcoin, on a date or dates and in a manner to be determined by the Government."

[dreamspark]

You really think the FBI talked to DPR and discussed with him whether now would be a good time to sell? They sell now because they can, the FBI are no speculators and they certainly didn't ask for DPR's permission first.

Actually they did talk with Ross (not clear on whose initiative) and both agreeed to sell.  The FBI still cannot sell those coins on their own, it is not yet decided whether they belong to Ross or to SilkRoad.  If they belong to Ross, they would have to wait for the verdict on Ross's trial.

I stand corrected then, thanks. Still the point stands that Ross and the FBI aren't speculators, Ross probably agreed with it because even at the price today they are worth a hell of a lot more than when he got them so why not auction them off? It's unlikely Ross will be planning to get back into the SR business and BTC if he is declared innocent, he will probably be happy with just the cash without worrying about the volatility of Bitcoin.

They agreed back on January 27, 2014 to sell based on volatility risk.  "WHEREAS, the government and Ulbricht agree that, due to the volatile market for bitcoins, the Computer Hardware Bitcoins risk losing value during the pendency of the forfeiture proceedings;"  http://www.usmarshals.gov/assets/2014/dpr-bitcoins/order.pdf

Having agreed to permit government to sell back in January, the government no longer needs any further agreement from Ross to sell.  Same link:  "1. The United States and Ulbricht agree that the United States may, at its sole discretion, sell any portion or all of the Computer Hardware Bitcoin, on a date or dates and in a manner to be determined by the Government."

Exactly, this decision to sell the coins is solely from the US government not Ross.