[POLL] Are You losing Interest ?

[iamnotback]

This is what I'm repeating all the time: if you want to be entirely law-abiding, law-protected and government-respected, fiat is much much better.

Disagree. Because the government is becoming inconsistent with itself (e.g. Trump will be in 4 years and is changing for example healthcare, EPA, and tax laws, then leftists will be back in and change all the laws ex post facto) and thus the best way to be law-abiding, is to be less involved in their inconsistent and self-destructive system. They don't even respect their own Constitution any more. The judicial system is a kangaroo court. The less I can use fiat and a traditional bank, the better. The sooner I can opt-out of their dying morass, the better. (Note I am not advocating one not comply with laws, but as much as you can opt-out, I think it is better)

As the public-at-large wakes up to the reality that the system is collapsing, for their own survival some are going to reach out to what functions properly. Many others will flail about on false solutions and perish.

We allegedly commit 3 felonies a day in the USA even we don't know it.

I got 51% attacked here on my topic by the genius show (Dino vs Shelby)  

Lol. Sorry, it wasn't intentional.

[iamnotback]

And if you all really cared so much you too would have left Cryptsy or other exchanges that comply with govt law.. but look around, you are all still using them aren't you ?

Speculators need liquidity and they also need to trust the exchange. So it is not fair to accuse them of not adhering to their logical needs. We haven't given them a viable means to get liquidity in a trustless, decentralized exchange.

Tangentially note in my whitepaper I have described a technology to eliminate the ability of exchanges to steal or lose coins. Yet retain the liquidity advantages of centralized exchanges. This will be implementing in my project.

[iamnotback]

Imagine every Cartel and gang and terrorist organization around the globe finding out they can circumvent any and all financial laws with Crypto.

I have a solution to that. The big time criminals will still get in trouble, the but the little guy will be left alone by the State:

...

"Only approved virtual currencies by the authority are considered legitimate and can be traded, sold or promoted to public"

This means govt is the legal arbitrator of forks...

Implausible when we will have anonymity on microtransactions. My conjecture is the governments can't afford to spend $1000s tracking down every $0.0001 transaction.

Although we will never have absolute iron-clad anonymity, since most people won't be doing anything illegal (e.g. sending an automated $0.0001 microtransaction when they click read a blog or listen to some music) and the coming Internet I am going to create will run on microtransactions, the governments won't be able to outlaw microtransactions. Will simply be too essential to the economy and popular to outlaw.

And privacy is important to everyone. Who wants the government snooping in your legal private affairs. We know that TSA agents were caught masturbating to the naked images from their airport body scanners.

[iamnotback]

My reservations about this industry are:

1. Since joining and getting involved over these years I've now realised that I don't want to be my own bank. Everybody wants to steal your crypto and there's no comeback once it's gone. Plug me back into the matrix please!

For trivial amounts (i.e. for mass adoption), it has been proposed to enable recovery via your personal social network. So you identify which friends you trust to not gang up on you.

For serious amounts of money, you really need to invest properly in your security. Or outsource it to an insured "bank" if you want.

2. The blockchain itself. I know advancements are coming but there's something that just niggles me about the current concept of the bloatchain (sorry blockchain). The next blockchain innov needs to do something like constantly hash the previous 10,000 blocks so that the chain size is kept to a reasonable size for eternity. I don't really care about storage tech. It still takes new users DAYS to download mature bloatchains. Sort it geniuses!!

The solution to all this is in hand already.

3. The tech. I keep saying it, nobody cares. Start getting usability sorted. OK, I get why anonymity is required. Everybody wants some privacy. I don't want a Russian gangster to know my BTC balance just because they know my BTC address. Tech has to be usable, not just techy.

Of course. This is very doable.

4. The scams and constant striving for profit. It's ugly and non-tech users are put off. I am. It's never ending and I have no ideas to make my own IPO/ICO and profit as well!

What you really mean is nobody is serious about solving the hard problems.

Hey and I tried to tell you that Ethereum was just a "scam" (play money for Vitalik & friends) but you were adamant that is wasn't. I told you more than a year ago that Casper would never work. Ethereum was a valid experiment but didn't need to cost $18+ million (not including the cost of the DAO attack). Some speculators made a lot of money. But it was never a properly vetted project (many of us told them at the outset that Turing complete and blockchain was a disaster waiting to happen).

But when I come into this thread and try to write seriously, I turn more people away and they start to vote "Yes" to the poll. So I will STFU and let you guys to continue to rant than talk to someone who actually wants to solve this.

[iamnotback]

One more transgression on my part.

Spoetnik, here is an example of what you are referring to. I must agree this is getting very tiring:

Your poll only lowers the minimum. Lower the maximum! Who wants to invest in another ICO with $15 million initial marketcap. That limits the upside and greatly increases the chance of downside.

The entire point of buying in an ICO is to buy at a very tiny marketcap.

Also if there is no one remaining to buy it after ICO, then the price will likely languish.

Lower your maximum goal to 1000 BTC. You don't need more than $1 million to accomplish your development efforts (and Bitcoin is headed towards $2500 perhaps too soon). Even 500 BTC should be enough. Stop trying to cash out before you deliver the goods! Bastard scammers!

Btw, the guys who are escrowing your ICO include Vlad who has produced technobabble bullshit about Casper for years. And nothing to show for it. Joe appears to come from that same Ethereum technobabble delusion.

Jae Kwon banned me from the Cosmos (Tendermint derivative) Github because I showed technically and factually why their system security was entirely broken.

I understand you have high aspirations towards a large existing lending market, but these people using these community loaning systems want fiat, not crypto. You are going to be trying swim upriver with technologically unsophisticated audience and underdeveloped onramps and offramps for crypto-currency in their locales. This will be a long, slow slog. You are misleading investors by insinuating that you can get an appreciable slice of that huge market any time soon. So the small initial marketcap is very important if speculators are to maximize their returns on this experiment.

One of the problems is the ICOs are not raising money for development, but trying to cash out and leave the naive speculators holding the bag. They raise up to $15 million in cash! Do you realize that $15 million in cash invested into any of the Top 5 altcoins would skyrocket their marketcap into the $Billion range. Cash invested is not the same as marketcap (this is known as the wealth multiplier effect).

[dinofelis]

Afaik, I haven't broken any law. Well I've read it conjectured that in the USA that everyone commits 3 felonies a day and doesn't know it, but I mean reasonable and auspicious laws that everyone tends to adhere to.

I live in a European country, and as far as I know, it is forbidden to do any productive activity without the status of a business (you have to declare yourself, get a business number, and even pay taxes yearly if you did $0 affairs during the year), and all business-related affairs need to be regulated on a business-bank account (not even a private account).  You are not allowed to accept cash beyond $1000,- in a direct sale if it is domestic ; you are not allowed to do any sales abroad with cash: it has to use your business account.  I have a small consultancy business next to my regular dayjob, the lightest possible structure that exists, and these rules apply.

Of course, there tolerances: if you do something casually, if the total amount doesn't surpass $5000 a year, and your activity can by no means be considered "professional" these rules don't apply.  For instance, if you do a one-time sale of stuff in your basement, you're not handling more than $5000,- in total and you cannot be suspected to have done this in a professional way, it is tolerated even though strictly speaking, against the law.

The point is that blockchains and crypto do LEGAL features that the legacy systems can't do! And the WWW of blockchains is going to do LEGAL things that the legacy WWW can't do.

I would be surprised.  For the moment, there's still a vacuum, and the laws haven't tightened in.  But when one sees how there's a crack down on cash (the limit of cash use in stores has been lowered more and more: it used to be $10 000, then $5000, then $3000, now it is $1000), I seriously doubt that there will remain any freedom, except the temporary freedom of novelty, when the law didn't catch up yet.  

There's too much at stake for them.  Who controls the money, controls the country.  

I'm NOT talking (only) about buying guns and drugs on dark markets.  But exactly about your kind of economic relation, which would be dangerous and/or illegal if these guys have it their way.

You presume that TPTB can obtain a total order on the control of the Earth. I understand that due to Chaos theory, they can't. They won't get their way. They are not an omniscient God.

I know.  But they have another weapon: fear.  Fear is what keeps power in place (next to faith and social pressure).

Not making my cash easily accessible to someone's abuse of the State and another agency's abuse of the law is just degrees-of-freedom and chaos in action. It doesn't mean I did anything illegal or I am hiding from the law. It means it was more efficient (cheaper and more expedient) than going to court or otherwise fight abuse by others in the society. It is not an absolute matter of it being illegal, because for the moment it is afaik not illegal.

I think there's a way to make it illegal in court *if one wants to* and laws will catch up.  The reason is not the use of crypto currencies per se (there's almost no jurisprudence for that yet), but there's the fact that someone has been investing value in a business that has most probably not been declared, and is expecting returns on it, and that this business activity is done professionally.    If that is the case, you'd be already in deep trouble with social security laws, because you're doing "work" that is not declared, and you don't pay social security contributions on it.  There's an effective business structure which has not been officially declared.  You are using real estate (a room) in which you practice business activities (you're thinking for your business, you're working) which has not been declared.    All monetary activity of that business is not happening on a business-bank-account which has been joined to your declaration, and you didn't obtain the only allowed payments NOT on that account through cash in a sales point, locally.  In my jurisdiction, you would already be in deep doodoo.  *if they found out* which they probably can't unless they want to SET AN EXAMPLE to instill fear and social pressure.

They don't need to chase every millibitcoin versed.  They single out a few examples, after whom they go, they make a great legal show of it, they present them as tax evaders, people that take the jobs of honest people, accumulate all the accusations, and convict them to 10 years of prison.  They make sure that the mass media relay this, they make sufficient links with "terrorism financing" and "drugs", and that's it.   Most people will now refrain from using this.  They won't go 10 years to jail because they used crypto.  Banks will propose fiat ways to do what was so-called difficult with fiat before.  They will ask you 5% on top of it.  A new law will introduce a tax on it.  From that moment, it is strictly illegal to do the same without paying a similar tax.  

I know people in the tax administration.  70% of their investigations are inspired by anonymous letters giving away neighbours, competitors, business rivals, and even customers.  There's even a law in the making that if you give away a true tax offender (of course non-anonymously) you may get a percentage of the money they make after investigation.

There are things we really need on the Internet which can't be done currently, but which can be done with decentralized micropayments and decentralized consensus on data (i.e. a blockchain).

As I outligned, most of those things are strictly speaking, already illegal.  

[dinofelis]

This is what I'm repeating all the time: if you want to be entirely law-abiding, law-protected and government-respected, fiat is much much better.

Disagree. Because the government is becoming inconsistent with itself (e.g. Trump will be in 4 years and is changing for example healthcare, EPA, and tax laws, then leftists will be back in and change all the laws ex post facto) and thus the best way to be law-abiding, is to be less involved in their inconsistent and self-destructive system. They don't even respect their own Constitution any more. The judicial system is a kangaroo court. The less I can use fiat and a traditional bank, the better. The sooner I can opt-out of their dying morass, the better.

The goal of the laws is of course that you can't opt out strictly legally.  You can, in practice, if you are "under the radar" and with sufficient novelty that they aren't chasing that.  I think, "thanks" to bitcoin's high flying, this period is closing for crypto.  It got on the radar.  Silly gamblers.

Hell, where I live, it is even prohibited by law to help anyone in one's real estate to do any work that could also be done by a professional, if you're not related to less than the 3rd degree (parents, children, brother, sister).  I cannot go and help a buddy paint his rooms.  If I do so, I'm considered doing illegal work if I don't give out a "fair bill" and pay taxes on it, and this I can't do if I don't have a business.  So it is simply strictly illegal to help someone, that is not your family, do things in his house.  This is a law that wants to push people to take on professionals, and not count on friends.
I can't paint, install a bathroom, install a kitchen, do electricity, break or make internal walls, ... anything that is fixed to the real estate if it is not my brother, sister, son, father, mother, daughter's house. 

[iamnotback]

I live in a European country, and as far as I know, it is forbidden to do any productive activity without the status of a business

Well I am damn glad I am not a citizen of an EU member nation or other European totalitarian state. Because they are headed for third world country status as a result and the natural pressure of their bankrupt demographics+socialiam is driving this quoted result:

The corruption of the death of the Industrial Age in Stage #5 will give way to the rising Knowledge Age in Stage #6.

...

These top-down Western clusterfucks will collapse back to third world cesspools. The world will move on.

I would be surprised.  For the moment, there's still a vacuum, and the laws haven't tightened in.  But when one sees how there's a crack down on cash (the limit of cash use in stores has been lowered more and more: it used to be $10 000, then $5000, then $3000, now it is $1000), I seriously doubt that there will remain any freedom, except the temporary freedom of novelty, when the law didn't catch up yet.

They aren't going to get the developing world entirely off of cash in the next 2 years as Europe goes over the cliff into a sovereign debt collapse (ignited by the French election of La Pen in May and then the German election later in the year that will throw out Merkel or lead to violent unrest if she isn't).

Changing citizenship is a very important priority for someone who is not a little guy. Because indeed it is true that if for example I remain a citizen of the USA, they will be able to force me to report things I wouldn't otherwise have to report if I was a citizen of a country which has no rules about reporting foreign earned income. And changing citizenship is not illegal (yet). Afaik, currently the USA doesn't require me to report activity such as that except to comply with FATCA and annual income tax returns (and afaik nothing prevents me yet from holding BTC during the year unreported during the year if I didn't earn it as a wage and I wasn't living in the country requiring me to comply with labor stuff such as Obama care). Then again I stopped hiring a CPA to keep me abreast of all the detailed changes since about 2003. And I myself stopped attempting to track it in detail sometime in the past 5 years or so. So it is possible I may be in violation of some rule that I am not aware of. I had planned to hire someone to review all my history if ever I can afford it and then attempt to fix up any issues in my history. In my case, it couldn't even reasonably be classified to be tax avoidance if I attempted to change citizenship, because even as it is now I don't need to pay any federal income taxes given the $100,000 a year foreign earned income exclusion (I live in the Philippines more than the required 335 days a year).

More saliently, as you point out even the EU has recognized they can't afford to regulate the little guy. And thus that perfectly fits with what crypto can do which is LEGAL! You will see this as my project's plans become more published.

They don't need to chase every millibitcoin versed.

You already admitted that even the EU doesn't regulate the millbitcoin little guy:

Of course, there tolerances: if you do something casually, if the total amount doesn't surpass $5000 a year, and your activity can by no means be considered "professional" these rules don't apply.

They know if they tried to regulate the little guy, he has nothing to lose and will give the State the middle finger. And then the State will be revealed as impotent as it is, wearing no clothes.

They single out a few examples

That hasn't worked for them with file sharing and software copyright piracy. The State and the RIAA got their heads handed to them.

[dinofelis]

You already admitted that even the EU doesn't regulate the millbitcoin little guy:

Of course, there tolerances: if you do something casually, if the total amount doesn't surpass $5000 a year, and your activity can by no means be considered "professional" these rules don't apply.

They know if they tried to regulate the little guy, he has nothing to lose and will give the State the middle finger. And then the State will be revealed as impotent as it is, wearing no clothes.

They single out a few examples

That hasn't worked for them with file sharing and software copyright piracy. The State and the RIAA got their heads handed to them.

I don't know.  Most people around me are quite fearsome about downloading stuff.  When I tell them about VPN I buy with bitcoin and so on, they look at me like I'm an extraterrestrial.   Someone I know had been downloading movies, and got a repremand letter and he really got scared.  So yes, people do download, but with fear on their minds, and without daring to talk publicly about it, which limits severely its potential.  And, it IS illegal.  Of course you can do it.  If you're lucky, they won't single you out as an example, and it is not difficult to get lucky.  But that doesn't make it legal.  That's my whole point.

So yes, crypto has a role.  But in as much as it is useful over fiat, it will be essentially illegal, even if you can use it and most chances are you'll be lucky, because, as you say, they can't go after every millibitcoin guy.  But then it isn't "law abiding".  Downloading movies is not law abiding, even if only the dumbest and/or unluckiest get caught, and there's enough room to use it "under the radar".

[iamnotback]

Most people around me are quite fearsome about downloading stuff.

I haven't lived in a first world country since 2004, so I only remember that no one was scared then in the USA. I don't know about now. The videos I watch of Millennials protesting makes me think I don't even know the USA anymore. It has changed so much so fast. The videos may not be representative of daily attitudes and life though.

I can tell you that in the developing world, nobody is scared to download anything or click anything. They have nothing to lose. If you could see the way filipinos drive, you'd understand that you could never force these people to follow any rules. The Spanish tried for 400 years and failed. Even the iron-fisted Durturte who drops criminals from helicopters can't get these people to follow rules.

Generally speaking, I bet the people you know are not destitute and without any aid from the government. And they are probably not the youth. I think people who have nothing to lose or too young to fear anything, aren't scared of much.

So yes, crypto has a role.  But in as much as it is useful over fiat, it will be essentially illegal

It as if you entirely ignored the part of my prior reply, in which I explained that (according to you) even the EU does not make the little guy illegal w.r.t. to reporting small cash activity. That means afaik my plans for the "WWW of blockchains" will be LEGAL even in the EU.

The EU is going to be dealing with widespread civil unrest as they enter their sovereign debt and EU collapse/disintegration, thus I don't think they are going to be able get organized on telling the little guy he can't play with some game tokens on the Internet. They are likely to have millions of middle fingers pointing back at them if they do attempt to take away the little escapes that these peons have to satiate themselves on the Internet. Perhaps I will be wrong about the level of totalitarianism and we will really head directly into 1984 and enter a Dark Age scorched earth. But if that happens, then you've got bigger problems with surviving. I don't think TPTB will risk having their control grid burned to the ground by bezerk hoards of peons. If we go into scorched earth and zombie MadMax, then well learn to hunt and move to the Congo or something. The point is that they can't exert too much control without sending it over the edge into total chaos of MadMax collapse. TPTB have to give up some breathing room to prevent losing control entirely. You can't squeeze blood from a dry rag.

Telling people that they can't steal is reasonable and people know it is morally wrong. Telling the little guy he can't play with game tokens is not reasonable. It is like regulating that he can't drink, smoke, or have sex. Prohibition failed in the USA.

When the government becomes too unreasonable, the people revolt.

They've ratcheted down the levels of maximum cash transaction that has to be reported, as they test the waters to find that limit of tolerance. But they can't bring it down to $0 without causing a revolt, not unless they can satiate all the major needs the little guy has for cash. But how can they satiate the online gaming addiction by making it illegal to earn gaming token points? People need a little risk in their lives, so they feel alive.

When millions of people's sole income is coming from the gaming tokens, how will the EU compensate these people when the EU is bankrupt?

See by creating a third world underclass of unemployed youth, the EU is paving the way for my plans. They are rolling out the red carpet for it.

Also realize that they probably won't get organized on banning something that is very small and under their radar. By the time they realize it is a threat, then they've got a problem with banning something which people think is a reasonable activity. The moral outrage will be on them, if the people are not totally mindcontrolled. Then again, maybe Europe is totally emasculated (we'll see during Germany's election).

I think it is likely we are moving into chaos and TPTB will lose some control. They are for example getting a lot of blowback now for their AGW propaganda. Lamar Smith is now trying to prosecute the NOAA.

Disclaimer: I am not giving any professional advice on compliance with laws in any jurisdiction. Please consult your own attorney.

[iamnotback]

Hell, where I live, it is even prohibited by law to help anyone in one's real estate to do any work that could also be done by a professional, if you're not related to less than the 3rd degree (parents, children, brother, sister).  I cannot go and help a buddy paint his rooms.

My Belgium friend (a former painter contractor) told me about that. I was shocked. Note he successfully worked "blackwork" for decades, but he told me that by now it is impossible as there are so many government inspectors snooping around. At age 13, I used to walk around the neighborhood and mow old ladies' lawns for $5 a pop (huge yards with deep crab grass in the sweltering summer of New Orleans). How the world has changed. The USA was not any where near that when I left in 2004. I don't know about now, but I think Trump is reversing a lot of that. I would GTFO of the EU (pronounced "ewww")!

But the new form of that job I used to do, is some youth doing some activity on the Internet and getting some cash from it. This I think happens a lot.

The government is going to regulate the people with significant money, but not all these youth and others who are just doing a "hobby".

That is why those with significant money need to GTFO out these Western citizenship clusterfucks or otherwise organize their legal affairs.

Most of the concentrated monetary capital of the world will die during Stage #5. I had long warned of that. Yet that doesn't mean my "gaming token" won't prosper. It just means those who hold significant tokens might not prosper if they can't find a jurisdiction which doesn't steal everything from them.

(I don't mean "gaming token" as in only for computer games. I have a broader idea of what I mean by "game". For example, social networking is a game.)

I am interested to read your further and others' viewpoints on this issue. It is interesting to pick the brains of others for their perspective.

[wrxbuzz]

Never and ever, I like making money from new fields, and bitcoin and altcoins make us many profits, therefore I never lose any interest.

[Spoetnik]

We all see eye to eye overall more than you'd think.

I also have lost interest over the years in being a File Sharing supporter.
So trust me i get the defending freedom thing

I see the direction of crypto held by the majority.
And they steer the ship how they want.. profits.
Who or what will stop them from repeating the housing market crash ?
Who will hand out bail-out packages in Crypto ?
I said long ago guys like BigVern would cut & run when it got ugly looking.. same with GOX.
I said they would decide to bail out and rip off people on the way out the door.
And that is what is happening from small players to large ones.

..as the scene gets uglier & uglier.

The same happened with Piracy.
More & more users flocked to alternatives like Spotify or online streaming sites or File Lockers etc.
The once popular torrent scene has been on the decline for ages.
I know that opens a big can of worms so feel free to ignore the P2P commentary. LOL

Are the users / majority going to run, fight or compromise ? I choose the later always.
Crypto laws or regulations do not need to be a sweeping ban on them.
You all assume the word law means you can't do what you are doing now.

You all enjoy investing in coins manipulated by our own version of Martha Stewart on govt controlled exchanges ?
You enjoy GOX & Cryptsy taking the money ?
You feel good about the crypto / dark market reputation in the public ?

I'd say we are at a cross-roads where we need figure out where we stand in the Altcoin scene overall with morality vs profit.. with regulations and the nagging BTC block size debate
The mass of people have final say not me.

[dinofelis]

It as if you entirely ignored the entire part of my prior reply, in which I explained that (according to you) even the EU does not make the little guy illegal w.r.t. to reporting small cash activity. That means afaik my plans for the "WWW of blockchains" will be LEGAL even in the EU.

Well, the point is that, if you're suspected, the proof is on you that you are within the tolerated boundaries.  This is a legal nightmare, against every principle of law: you have to prove your innocence in these cases, and they don't have to bring reasonable proof of your guilt.  Everything dealing with taxes and financial laws is of this reversed proof principle (and so is strictly speaking, a "lawless law").

So, IF you are dealing with cash, and they can prove that you've been dealing with SOME cash, it is up to you to prove that you didn't surpass the $5000/year limit and that you didn't do anything "professionally" that way.  This is essentially impossible to prove, so you are at the mercy of the judge.   So *if they are after you for another reason* (like a political one), it is easy to convict you if ever they have one single instance of you handling cash against something.

You shouldn't confuse "tolerated" and "legal".  Tolerated has the problem that the burden of proof resides upon your shoulders, and that that proof can never be delivered.  So if you participate in a tolerated activity, you are at their mercy for anything.  If you *really* are a small guy and they have nothing against you (you haven't been politically incorrect, you aren't of a suspicious race they want to nail down (white, say), you have shown sufficient respect for the system in place), they will not annoy you.  If however, you piss them off in one way or another, they can use these honey pots to nail you on the cross and there's not much you can do about that.  And that's the goal of these things.

They don't like it, and they would like to outlaw it.  But it takes them too much effort to actually outlaw it.  So they discourage it by setting examples, and they use it to convict their political enemies.

The EU is going to be dealing with widespread civil unrest as they enter their sovereign debt and EU collapse/disintegration, thus I don't think they are going to be able get organized on telling the little guy he can't play with some game tokens on the Internet. They are likely to have millions of middle fingers pointing back at them if they do attempt to take away the little escapes that these peons have to satiate themselves on the Internet. Perhaps I will be wrong about the level of totalitarianism and we will really head directly into 1984 and enter a Dark Age scorched earth.

I'm closer to your second vision, unfortunately.  There's even a law I heard about, that if you want to have UV sessions to get a fake sun tan, you have to register to a national registry, so that you cannot obtain more than an allowed dose of UV, and each time you take a session, the beauty institute is supposed to report it to the national register.  Now, I don't do UV, but if you see the level of totalitarianism for these details, it is outright scary.  The official reason is that too much UV gives you skin cancer, which is too expensive for social security.

TPTB have to give up some breathing room to prevent losing control entirely. You can't squeeze blood from a dry rag.

But I agree with that.  Only, you can't say that it will be law abiding.  It will simply be tolerated to a certain extend, because it takes them too much resources to weed out, but at the same time it is a honey pot, and they will use it selectively to convict their political opponents and set them as an example.

Total power occurs when the law forbids everything, and most is tolerated.   Then the arbitrariness of judgement, which was done away with since King Hammurabi invented the law, is back, and full despotism has its way.  A fully Kafka-ian world.

Telling people that they can't steal is reasonable and people know it is morally wrong. Telling the little guy he can't play with game tokens is not reasonable. It is like regulating that he can't drink, smoke, or have sex. Prohibition failed in the USA.

It failed, but it was serving power in its arbitrariness.

People only revolt when an unreasonable law is applied.  When an unreasonable law is voted, but its transgression is tolerated, people don't revolt.  And you can use the law selectively to hit your political enemies.

[dinofelis]

I see the direction of crypto held by the majority.
And they steer the ship how they want.. profits.
Who or what will stop them from repeating the housing market crash ?
Who will hand out bail-out packages in Crypto ?
I said long ago guys like BigVern would cut & run when it got ugly looking.. same with GOX.
I said they would decide to bail out and rip off people on the way out the door.
And that is what is happening from small players to large ones.

This is universal behaviour.  Perfectly normal.

Are the users / majority going to run, fight or compromise ? I choose the later always.
Crypto laws or regulations do not need to be a sweeping ban on them.
You all assume the word law means you can't do what you are doing now.

All I will be able to do with crypto, I already do it with fiat.  The only things I buy with crypto, are internet services of which I don't want people to put their noses in.  All the rest is too much hassle with crypto, and I do it with my credit card.

You all enjoy investing in coins manipulated by our own version of Martha Stewart on govt controlled exchanges ?

Yes.  Because you shouldn't use exchanges (apart from getting a starter's budget if you want to start buying before you want to start selling stuff).

You enjoy GOX & Cryptsy taking the money ?

Yes, because this reminds crypto users what "trustless" means.

You feel good about the crypto / dark market reputation in the public ?

Yes, because I don't want the public to adopt crypto at large, and fiatize it totally.

The public can do most if not all their financial affairs with fiat.  The niche applications of crypto are those that cannot be done with fiat, and hence are not 100% law abiding.

[dinofelis]

Generally speaking, I bet the people you know are not destitute and without any aid from the government.

Of course not.  Like me, I'm swimming in gov. money.  Because if I weren't, I would have to cough it up as taxes.  In a socialist culture, you can only be stolen, or be part of the thieves.  The only reasonable individual choice is to be part of the thieves.  But I regret that I have to be part of the thieves.  That's what pisses me off.  But I live very will on tax money.

[Arvydas77]

I'm still doing quite good trading altcoins. But I decided to change my attitude towards Bitcoin and alternative cryptocurrencies this year, radically. Why? I was looking at Bitcoin for half a year, studying technical issues etc. and I understand that Bitcoin is going nowhere. I'm bidding on alts I have chosen for long term. I'm also trading to buy more alts I have chosen to baghold. I'm sure this will give me good benefits in 10 years.

[iamnotback]

As I read your post, and I tie it into your prior point that the Singularity in your view might help because superior machines would trample this horrific state of mankind, I realize that the EU is psychologically toxic. It has ostensibly turned you into a doomsday fatalist. I am so damn glad I am not in the EU. Thanks for confirming to me that I do not want to go live in the center of Europe. Finland seemed to be very hard on rpietila's mental state also. I don't know if Estonia (where his castle is) is better? I ask because I have a gracious standing offer to go live there at his castle if I run out of funds to live on (so I can continue my work).

You could possibly be correct about the global totalitarianism coming (even though I do agree a Stage #5 is coming), but I think your expectation is excessively bleak and let's discuss...

It as if you entirely ignored the entire part of my prior reply, in which I explained that (according to you) even the EU does not make the little guy illegal w.r.t. to reporting small cash activity. That means afaik my plans for the "WWW of blockchains" will be LEGAL even in the EU.

Well, the point is that, if you're suspected, the proof is on you that you are within the tolerated boundaries.  This is a legal nightmare, against every principle of law: you have to prove your innocence in these cases, and they don't have to bring reasonable proof of your guilt.  Everything dealing with taxes and financial laws is of this reversed proof principle (and so is strictly speaking, a "lawless law").

So, IF you are dealing with cash, and they can prove that you've been dealing with SOME cash, it is up to you to prove that you didn't surpass the $5000/year limit and that you didn't do anything "professionally" that way.  This is essentially impossible to prove, so you are at the mercy of the judge.   So *if they are after you for another reason* (like a political one), it is easy to convict you if ever they have one single instance of you handling cash against something.

Okay but this doesn't address my point. You are speaking from the perspective of someone who has something to lose if they attack you. You are saying they can destroy all the people that have some significant assets and even if you try to be 100% legally compliant, you really can't be. I agreed with that upthread and stated that even complying with fiat, you will end up being illegal in the end (so what is the point of staying in fiat then?). Everyone will suffer, same as in Nazi Germany. The famous verse still applies as all of you try to cope with the system and try to stay in fiat and comply (at the end stage even complying won't be legal because totalitarian lawlessness and duplicity will rule!):

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

But my point is that those who have nothing (e.g. the youth, unemployed, destitute, and little guys) don't have anything that can be taken from them. Thus they have no fear. And if the government attacks their sources of enjoyment and tiny income streams, then these people revolt. Thus the government won't bother to attack these people, as there is nothing they can get from doing it and the government can only stir up a big problem for themselves.

But it takes them too much effort to actually outlaw it.  So they discourage it by setting examples, and they use it to convict their political enemies.

Those with nothing to lose ignore those examples. And the government knows not to fuck with the little pleasures and tiny hobbies of those masses of little people.

The government likes to use these masses against the middle class. They give them some money to protest and do revolutions. Apparently in Europe they are essentially giving them a basic income (even when not working) to keep them not being little people with nothing to lose?

But then what happens when the welfare state collapses and the EU can't give them basic income any more? That is what I am talking about. Thus afaics, the TPTB are sending them right into the lap of my sort of plan for a WWW of blockchains.

Are you referring to a long interim period while the EU maintains basic income by stealing all the wealth first? How long can that be sustained? Aren't European capitalists already moving their funds out to the US dollar already. All that will be remaining is an empty shell of government despots, dependents, and (Tuberculosis carriers) rapefugees.

That is why I say GTFO of the "ewww". It is going to be scorched earth over there. Head to greener pastures asap.

The EU is going to be dealing with widespread civil unrest as they enter their sovereign debt and EU collapse/disintegration, thus I don't think they are going to be able get organized on telling the little guy he can't play with some game tokens on the Internet. They are likely to have millions of middle fingers pointing back at them if they do attempt to take away the little escapes that these peons have to satiate themselves on the Internet. Perhaps I will be wrong about the level of totalitarianism and we will really head directly into 1984 and enter a Dark Age scorched earth.

I'm closer to your second vision, unfortunately.  There's even a law I heard about, that if you want to have UV sessions to get a fake sun tan, you have to register to a national registry, so that you cannot obtain more than an allowed dose of UV, and each time you take a session, the beauty institute is supposed to report it to the national register.  Now, I don't do UV, but if you see the level of totalitarianism for these details, it is outright scary.  The official reason is that too much UV gives you skin cancer, which is too expensive for social security.

Yeah I even heard that each egg your chicken lays needs an inspector's sticker on it while the hen is still sitting on it to confirm it wasn't a "black" egg. Lol. WTF   The "ewww" is rotting stench.

<joke>If I lived in a place like that, I would have long ago killed myself or machine gunned down a brigade of officials.</joke> Seriously I could not live in a place like that and retain my sanity. It is so against nature.

TPTB have to give up some breathing room to prevent losing control entirely. You can't squeeze blood from a dry rag.

But I agree with that.  Only, you can't say that it will be law abiding.  It will simply be tolerated to a certain extend, because it takes them too much resources to weed out, but at the same time it is a honey pot, and they will use it selectively to convict their political opponents and set them as an example.

If the EU makes it illegal to trade gaming tokens on the Internet or that you have to report it or that they start attacking everyone that does less than $5000 a year, then the "ewww" is illegal and the human race will make it so. Watch that corrupt clusterfuck self-destruct into a massive culling in short order.

Btw, my 65 year old Belgium friend says, "the banks will never take my savings". I can't convince him otherwise. He says the EU central bank bailed out in prior crisis and will never allow the banks to fail. So imagine what happens when all these retirees loose everything.

Total power occurs when the law forbids everything, and most is tolerated.   Then the arbitrariness of judgement, which was done away with since King Hammurabi invented the law, is back, and full despotism has its way.  A fully Kafka-ian world.

Yeah that is lawlessness and duplicity. Complete totalitarianism. It is impossible to do that in every nation on earth right now. Have you traveled?

People only revolt when an unreasonable law is applied.  When an unreasonable law is voted, but its transgression is tolerated, people don't revolt.  And you can use the law selectively to hit your political enemies.

I see that most everyone in Europe is on basic income plan. Now I understand why you see Nazi Germany coming. I agree.

GTFO out of the "ewww". The entire world is not in the same condition as your clusterfuck over there.

Generally speaking, I bet the people you know are not destitute and without any aid from the government.

Of course not.  Like me, I'm swimming in gov. money.  Because if I weren't, I would have to cough it up as taxes.  In a socialist culture, you can only be stolen, or be part of the thieves.  The only reasonable individual choice is to be part of the thieves.  But I regret that I have to be part of the thieves.  That's what pisses me off.  But I live very will on tax money.

You'll have only yourself to blame for trying to profit on the Nazis until there is no one left but you to extract wealth (and possibly life) from.

You know this EU scheme was hatched by Germany in order to be able to use its superior productivity to enslave Europe. France went along because Charles de Gaulle's (and French) high pride (didn't want to be subservient to the USA).

[dinofelis]

As I read your post, and I tie it into your prior point that the Singularity in your view might help because superior machines would trample this horrific state of mankind, I realize that the EU is psychologically toxic. It has ostensibly turned you into a doomsday fatalist.

Your insight is amazing.

[Spoetnik]

Ya know i hear that's life and things are going well..
Bullshit.

Things have gotten worse and will continue to do so and how will you react *soon* ?
I am tired of this whole this is just nature playing out bullshit retort.

Do you stand there and say that at car wreck sites with body parts laying around ?

The two guys here commenting the most are coin makers / backers.
So hmm have an agenda much ?
One is on a mission to defend Monero pretty much and the other is making his own Bitcoin Killer.
Both want no laws at all to further their agenda.
Both want to down play the shit fest this has become and the reaction it is getting from authorities.

THAT is why i am sick of this shit.
I am fed up with ICO makers saying ohhh this is going great.. the more the better.
When in reality it's not.
More losers = more people leave crypto.

There is no comparison to how this was in late 2013 when popularity exploded.
Since the scene has no rules the guys who run exchanges and make coins can rig the game to make sure they always win.
You WILL lose !
Keep gambling and you will guaranteed be broke.
All the while the corrupt players say it's going great counting YOUR cash !

Heap another ICO onto the fire and let's play the race to ROI's before pyramid scheme coin #3,222 collapses.

Either you are blind or dishonest.
There has been no digital currency innovation.. just alternative use ICO schemes for profit briefly popular then dumped on.

THAT IS "LIFE"

The reality here is staring you all in the face.. which is why BTC is rocketing up in price.
Altcoins = pointless garbage (so far) hence BTC = Popular.

The block-chain was never improved on with an innovation.
Users think modifying the existing block-chain concept someone else made is their new creation.
It's not.
I have always asked you all why you *settled* on block-chains and quit trying to make a better system.
Either there is a better system than block-chain or you all need to quit cawing like crows Innovations.

You all never seem to get it..
The only perception that matters is the majority who control crypto and the rest of the outside world.
And the link between the two (context)
..funny enough that aspect seems to be the ONLY thing you all don't care about.