Buying BFL debt. $0.10 per dollar owed.

[Inaba]

And what about the customers that ARE profitable? You have given them equally poor service than people who have had issues paying you or are trying to get a free discount.

What about them?  Customers who are reasonable and polite get the same in return.  What's your point?  I have even gone beyond what's required on numerous occasions for people who approach in a polite and respectful manner.  Frothing idiots like Pizza get something very different.

It is unethical to package totally vacuous "predictions" with optimistic hedges, and it is insulting to point at your tentative language and shrug your shoulders as though you are relieved of responsibility when customers ask you why you cannot deliver. Keep in mind that I am only referring to your half year of "we're shipping soon," I'll leave it to someone else to fight the product specification battle.

Then stop demanding hard and fast timeframes for things that we can't give hard and fast timeframes for.  Simple as that.  I say multiple times "We aren't sure when <fill in the blank>" and a chorus of people respond back "BUT GIVE US AN ESTIMATE!!!!"  Repeat that about 20x and that describes the past 6+ months.  Like I said earlier in this thread (or maybe it was another one) - the timelines were doled out long before I came on board with BFL.  I have worked with what I was handed for this product cycle.  Future product cycles, assuming I have the final authoritative say in the matter, will not contain shipping dates or definitive timelines.  The one and only answer to "When?" is "When it's done." If you get something other than that from me on future product cycles, you'll either get it by that date or I have been overridden in my stance of not providing dates.  I fully realize this statement will probably sneak up and bite me in the ass at some unspecified future date due to reasons I can't possibly imagine at the moment.

Yeah, you guys offer the most competitive prices and there is high demand for your product. Yes, this gives you a lot of license to lie and screw up while still pulling big profits. This is obviously your business model and it is completely transparent.

Sorry, but we haven't lied.  Have we been wrong?  Yes, absolutely, and I have apologized many times over for that.  I am, however, tired of apologizing.  It does not mollify anyone and I can't fix it; it is what it is at this point and I will manage the situation as it is, not as I (and everyone else) wish it were.

[LazyOtto]

...
I have apologized many times over for that.  I am, however, tired of apologizing.  It does not mollify anyone ...

"I am, however, tired of apologizing."
Unfortunate. When it's appropriate one should. Whether tired of it or not.

However, I do recognize that one blanket apology can deal with many offenses.

I requested once that you apologize to me. And specifically substantiated why it was due. From that point you never again posted in that thread to my knowledge.

"It does not mollify anyone"

An over broad generalization, IMO.

[Inaba]

...
I have apologized many times over for that.  I am, however, tired of apologizing.  It does not mollify anyone ...

"I am, however, tired of apologizing."
Unfortunate. When it's appropriate one should. Whether tired of it or not.

However, I do recognize that one blanket apology can deal with many offenses.

I requested once that you apologize to me. And specifically substantiated why it was due. From that point you never again posted in that thread to my knowledge.

"It does not mollify anyone"

An over broad generalization, IMO.

In this case, it's not overbroad... just look at all the rambling, frothing complaining that goes on here against BFL.  No amount of apologizing will silence the people who just like to complain and stir up trouble.  They aren't interested in apologies, just drama.  CreativeX, PuertoLibre, Smoothie, et al.  They are irrational and motivated purely by drama.  Common sense, logic and rationality was lost on them long, long ago. 

[LazyOtto]

...In this case, it's not overbroad...

And, in this case, you make a partial response.

You owe me, specifically and individually, an apology.

It is a matter of integrity and honor.

Still waiting.

[becoin]

Then stop demanding hard and fast timeframes for things that we can't give hard and fast timeframes for.  Simple as that.  

Then stop lying people and stop taking "pre-orders". Simple as that.
Do you really believe 200 (two hundred) days is a fast time frame?

[chipd]

Perhaps oddly (for you) I agree with your statement 100%.  You have been raised to believe that the customer is always right and you think that a company should treat you like royalty, no matter how poorly you behave or how unreasonable your demands are.  It's ok, it's part of your culture and a horrible, horrible business modality that is held over from the 80's.  Modern businesses are just now starting to realize that treating customers like royalty and bending over backwards to pacify them is detrimental not only to current business but also future business.  Not only does it cost more money to retain poor customers, but it encourages other customers to whine and pitch a fit to get their way, perpetuating a horrible cycle.  It also forces an ongoing cost to maintain that customer that is often in excess, usually many times over, in what revenue that customer brings in.  

As much as I hate using Paypal as an example, they have got it right, from a profit driven perspective.  If you are a troublesome user, they will send you an email saying "We no longer want to do business with you.  We won't discuss why. blah blah blah"  Then they will close your account and that's the end of it.  They simply don't care.  Try to call them and ask, they'll tell you they won't discuss it.  The reason is: You are unprofitable.  They don't want you.  Ever.  Hate them as much as you want (I do), but they absolutely dominate the industry with regards to profits.  This business modality is a large part as to why.

At the end of the day, when you tally the balance sheet, it's far better to jettison those customers than it is to keep them.  Now, if your goal is to be altruistic and a philanthropic or non-profit company, then perhaps that's the way to go.  If your goal is to be a profitable company:  See ya!

I was going to give you the courtesy and reply to this post explaining why you are living in a fantasy world, but then I realized that it wont matter because you're so far away in a lala-land, probably because you've been spending your customers money on SR.

Despite of your actions at your BFL employment I sincerely wish you luck finding an employment worth calling an employment.

[creativex]

...
I have apologized many times over for that.  I am, however, tired of apologizing.  It does not mollify anyone ...

"I am, however, tired of apologizing."
Unfortunate. When it's appropriate one should. Whether tired of it or not.

However, I do recognize that one blanket apology can deal with many offenses.

I requested once that you apologize to me. And specifically substantiated why it was due. From that point you never again posted in that thread to my knowledge.

"It does not mollify anyone"

An over broad generalization, IMO.

In this case, it's not overbroad... just look at all the rambling, frothing complaining that goes on here against BFL.  No amount of apologizing will silence the people who just like to complain and stir up trouble.  They aren't interested in apologies, just drama.  CreativeX, PuertoLibre, Smoothie, et al.  They are irrational and motivated purely by drama.  Common sense, logic and rationality was lost on them long, long ago.

lol Now BFL is the victim? That's rich.

Deflect all you wish Mr. COO that doesn't take responsibility for anything at all. BFL has thoroughly earned it's reputation as a nasty band of deceitful crooks. Your cute little word games about "scheduled shipments", "power consumption simulations", and "should be shipping within two weeks...maybe sooner" are costing people a whole lot of money. Honest Abe.

Give me a straight answer for once Josh. How does this not apply to you and your company?

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

[MooC Tals]

Josh wont answer. He's too busy mining the rigs on his pool. I will never recommend his company for mining. Actually I said this before and that is I'm going to ltc. I hope more competition comes in and shows how real companies are run. I can't see how that track record of deceit has allowed this company get so far. I thought only government can operate this bad and last this long.

Fuck you Josh

[barneyss]

Josh wont answer. He's too busy mining the rigs on his pool. I will never recommend his company for mining. Actually I said this before and that is I'm going to ltc. I hope more competition comes in and shows how real companies are run. I can't see how that track record of deceit has allowed this company get so far. I thought only government can operate this bad and last this long.

Fuck you Josh

butterfly answer me everyday
if u use forum u wont receive any answer
if u hav any question, just use facebook and u'll get your answer within 24 hours

my last question

--------
i've placed a order some time ago, is it possible to upgrade my order adding some more items and not losing my place on shipping date?
Mi piace · · 10 ore fa

    Stephan Händel oh yes, woulda be nice to know
    Mi piace · Rispondi · 9 ore fa
    Butterfly Labs No. In fairness to all of our customers you would have to order more now seperately. Thank you for your order and understanding.
    Mi piace · Rispondi · 9 ore fa

[MooC Tals]

Josh wont answer. He's too busy mining the rigs on his pool. I will never recommend his company for mining. Actually I said this before and that is I'm going to ltc. I hope more competition comes in and shows how real companies are run. I can't see how that track record of deceit has allowed this company get so far. I thought only government can operate this bad and last this long.

Fuck you Josh

butterfly answer me everyday
if u use forum u wont receive any answer
if u hav any question, just use facebook and u'll get your answer within 24 hours

my last question

--------
i've placed a order some time ago, is it possible to upgrade my order adding some more items and not losing my place on shipping date?
Mi piace · · 10 ore fa

    Stephan Händel oh yes, woulda be nice to know
    Mi piace · Rispondi · 9 ore fa
    Butterfly Labs No. In fairness to all of our customers you would have to order more now seperately. Thank you for your order and understanding.
    Mi piace · Rispondi · 9 ore fa

You just don't seem to understand and I really am not the type to mock people as its not in my nature in real life. I know most customers of BFL have no idea of their past dealings as I was one of them. BFL has lied over so many issues that I personally have witnessed that in my good conscience can never allow my money to reach them. I refuse to support them in anyway.

You seem happy with them and I wish you luck. However if you offer more money you always get what you need.

Never hate people that try to warn others. Always listen and make your own mind.

[FloridaBear]

You just don't seem to understand and I really am not the type to mock people as its not in my nature in real life. I know most customers of BFL have no idea of their past dealings as I was one of them. BFL has lied over so many issues that I personally have witnessed that in my good conscience can never allow my money to reach them. I refuse to support them in anyway.

You seem happy with them and I wish you luck. However if you offer more money you always get what you need.

Never hate people that try to warn others. Always listen and make your own mind.

It is obvious that there have been some very blatant lies coming out of BFL. That the device was in for FCC certification (when they clearly didn't have a device, or even a prototype, or even a chip) comes to mind. That they would be shipping "next week" when the same was clearly true (no chip, no prototype). It's not just a case of "being wrong," in the case of the timelines as Josh insists, it's a case of willful deceipt. Big difference.

I have no skin in this game, but assurances from BFL that customer preorder funds are in escrow would go a long way toward restoring some trust (however, with the lies that have already come from BFL, even that may not help that much). In the case of a bankruptcy, all preorders should be refunded. There's no guarantee of that unless they are in escrow. Customers who preorder are not investors--their money is for product, not product development!

BFL has been stringing their customers along for 8 months by willfully deceiving them about the delivery timeline in order to avoid a landslide of refund requests. I fear for the solvency of BFL and the millions of dollars in customer preorders.

[becoin]

Despite thousands of warning signs that BFL is a scam if you decide to pre-order one of their products always pay by a credit card. NEVER use bitcoins! BFL fraudsters do not honor full bitcoin refunds!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136615.0

[Matthew N. Wright]

Despite thousands of warning signs that BFL is a scam if you decide to pre-order one of their products always pay by a credit card. NEVER use bitcoins! BFL fraudsters do not honor full bitcoin refunds!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136615.0

They used to accept bitcoins directly back in the day. When Bit-Pay started doing it for them (and selling your bitcoins on the dark net), it kind of removed any possibility of them giving a refund denominated in the bitcoin commodity. I agree not to use bitcoins to buy high ticket items unless you absolutely have no other choice.

[mobodick]

I say multiple times "We aren't sure when <fill in the blank>" and a chorus of people respond back "BUT GIVE US AN ESTIMATE!!!!"  Repeat that about 20x and that describes the past 6+ months. 

Yeah, well that's not how it went, Josh.
Usually you said something in the line of "It will be ready next week, but probably end of this week. Everything looks peachy."
And then of course the next couple of weeks came and went and people find out afterwards that there was zero probability that you could have done whatever you said was probably going to be done 2 weeks ago.

Rince, repeat on a bi-weekly basis.

You have repeatedly communicated about things that you then cannot manage on time. It seems that you have been deliberately optimistic about a lot of things without a proper justification. The way things were going last year i already predicted months ago that you won't be ready for the first quarter of this year. Meanwhile you were still telling your customers lies about when you will be able to deliver.
And then when people get angry you come to bitcointalk and address trolls instead of people with questions.

And i don't see this changing in the future since you seem to be completely oblivious to how much people think you are a dickface.

[mobodick]

...
I have apologized many times over for that.  I am, however, tired of apologizing.  It does not mollify anyone ...

"I am, however, tired of apologizing."
Unfortunate. When it's appropriate one should. Whether tired of it or not.

However, I do recognize that one blanket apology can deal with many offenses.

I requested once that you apologize to me. And specifically substantiated why it was due. From that point you never again posted in that thread to my knowledge.

"It does not mollify anyone"

An over broad generalization, IMO.

In this case, it's not overbroad... just look at all the rambling, frothing complaining that goes on here against BFL.  No amount of apologizing will silence the people who just like to complain and stir up trouble.  They aren't interested in apologies, just drama.  CreativeX, PuertoLibre, Smoothie, et al.  They are irrational and motivated purely by drama.  Common sense, logic and rationality was lost on them long, long ago. 

They're the only kind of people you take serious, apparently..

[skeeterskeeter]

"Now multiply that by 1000 and that's what we have to deal with regularly.  Whiny people who want a free handout. "

 "no matter how poorly you behave or how unreasonable your demands are.  "

" The reason is: You are unprofitable. "

How were my demands "unreasonable", I had reason I wanted to buy your product. You gave me half-assed copy and paste answers, and still do.

I never demanded a price, I figured if you wanted to sell the damn thing you'd tell me it. (EDIT: When you don't even have the product available)

If it is unprofitable for me to be a customer, dont tell me to fuck off, tell me what to do exactly. As you might attest us customers some hicks we needs it all spelled out like for us's.

[cloudhasher]

I'm asking you to back up your statements with evidence.  You are lacking said evidence while you're making statements that are not factual.  I am attempting to force you into providing said evidence to prove that you aren't making shit up.

_I_ know you're making shit up, but not everyone else does.  It's better if you make this clear to everyone than me just saying you're making shit up.  I notice that you still haven't provided any posts for any type of wager I have allegedly made, according to you.

He will not provide ANY evidence. You know why? Because he is a TOOL!!!

Was passing through and saw this ridiculous topic and had to comment.

All some of these idiots do is call "scam". They seem to get a kick out of it. You are wasting your time with him and some of the guys on here. They only act as effective timewasters. I have decided to ignore trolls and tools altogether and concentrate on building a business.
Besides , bitcoin is much much larger Bitcointalk.org. Why do I say that? Well 80 percent of my customers don't come from here at all.

Keep up the good work.

Regards

[smoothie]

I'm asking you to back up your statements with evidence.  You are lacking said evidence while you're making statements that are not factual.  I am attempting to force you into providing said evidence to prove that you aren't making shit up.

_I_ know you're making shit up, but not everyone else does.  It's better if you make this clear to everyone than me just saying you're making shit up.  I notice that you still haven't provided any posts for any type of wager I have allegedly made, according to you.

He will not provide ANY evidence. You know why? Because he is a TOOL!!!

Was passing through and saw this ridiculous topic and had to comment.

All some of these idiots do is call "scam". They seem to get a kick out of it. You are wasting your time with him and some of the guys on here. They only act as effective timewasters. I have decided to ignore trolls and tools altogether and concentrate on building a business.
Besides , bitcoin is much much larger Bitcointalk.org. Why do I say that? Well 80 percent of my customers don't come from here at all.

Keep up the good work.

Regards

Good work is...

1. Being 7 months late.

2. Missing Dozens of deadlines given.

3. Missed power/speed specs

4. Trolling forums and cussing at customers

5. Doubling  device costs.

6. ...(anyone care to add to this list of GOOD WORK Josh has done?)

[cloudhasher]

I'm asking you to back up your statements with evidence.  You are lacking said evidence while you're making statements that are not factual.  I am attempting to force you into providing said evidence to prove that you aren't making shit up.

_I_ know you're making shit up, but not everyone else does.  It's better if you make this clear to everyone than me just saying you're making shit up.  I notice that you still haven't provided any posts for any type of wager I have allegedly made, according to you.

He will not provide ANY evidence. You know why? Because he is a TOOL!!!

Was passing through and saw this ridiculous topic and had to comment.

All some of these idiots do is call "scam". They seem to get a kick out of it. You are wasting your time with him and some of the guys on here. They only act as effective timewasters. I have decided to ignore trolls and tools altogether and concentrate on building a business.
Besides , bitcoin is much much larger Bitcointalk.org. Why do I say that? Well 80 percent of my customers don't come from here at all.

Keep up the good work.

Regards

Good work is...

1. Being 7 months late.

2. Missing Dozens of deadlines given.

3. Missed power/speed specs

4. Trolling forums and cussing at customers

5. Doubling  device costs.

6. ...(anyone care to add to this list of GOOD WORK Josh has done?)

Be quiet Troll :-)

That was a pointless post. Clever example of your creativity or lack thereof!!!
I'll concentrate on being productive. So should you.


By the way - being late doesn't constitute a scam. Being late does not defer the fact "good work" is being done.

[MooC Tals]

I'm asking you to back up your statements with evidence.  You are lacking said evidence while you're making statements that are not factual.  I am attempting to force you into providing said evidence to prove that you aren't making shit up.

_I_ know you're making shit up, but not everyone else does.  It's better if you make this clear to everyone than me just saying you're making shit up.  I notice that you still haven't provided any posts for any type of wager I have allegedly made, according to you.

He will not provide ANY evidence. You know why? Because he is a TOOL!!!

Was passing through and saw this ridiculous topic and had to comment.

All some of these idiots do is call "scam". They seem to get a kick out of it. You are wasting your time with him and some of the guys on here. They only act as effective timewasters. I have decided to ignore trolls and tools altogether and concentrate on building a business.
Besides , bitcoin is much much larger Bitcointalk.org. Why do I say that? Well 80 percent of my customers don't come from here at all.

Keep up the good work.

Regards

Good work is...

1. Being 7 months late.

2. Missing Dozens of deadlines given.

3. Missed power/speed specs

4. Trolling forums and cussing at customers

5. Doubling  device costs.

6. ...(anyone care to add to this list of GOOD WORK Josh has done?)

Be quiet Troll :-)

That was a pointless post. Clever example of your creativity or lack thereof!!!
I'll concentrate on being productive. So should you.


By the way - being late doesn't constitute a scam. Being late does not defer the fact "good work" is being done.

To lie to customers by using deceptive advertising to dupe customers into giving money on products that don't exist. Raising prices along with cancelling peoples prepaid express shipping.

I believe he is doing a service to others that may not know how criminal this company is. Not to mention the criminal origins of one of the co founders.

Yea you would not understand a scam even if one were to point it out to you.

Here is some evidence of working of the scam. just a glimpse.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg2139947#msg2139947

Won't expect a reply since your so busy.