Who else is tired of this shit?

[Carlton Banks]

This has just turned into a pissing contest. Nobody is open for some compromise and everyone wants their side to win with whatever they are fighting. In the past few days, I just take some breather to get out of this drama and re-calibrate my thoughts about what's happening. Hopefully, all concerned parties will come to a solution that will provide better future for BTC.

there are 3 sides:


"1 MB Forever" Immutability advocates

Including iamnotback, dinofelis and trainscarwreck. And that's all of them, the "Popular Front of Judea", lol. No one takes that view particularly seriously, but I sympathise with it to a degree.

"The Gamed Market decides" Infinity blocksize yesterday advocates

The dangerous group. Large numbers of very repetitive forum members, very thin (10%) representation in the Bitcoin network itself, and that's questionable. Mining represents 40% support for this group, but that's going to change for a variety of reasons

"One node one vote" Technical solution advocates

Yes, I'm biased towards this group. But I also don't like how big the blocks will be (4MB) either. Forum support is sporadic, but widespread within it's patchiness. Node support is highest (60%, or arguably higher if you count pre 13.1 Core nodes too). Mining support is lowest (30%), or maybe it's now about even with the 1MB-by-default miners who have abstained from signalling so far.



I fear a 4th side, like I mention on the previous page of this thread. All it would take is some kind of a major crisis to take place, and people could be panicked into choosing a cleverly contrived power grab with an appeal to authority of some kind, which Bitcoiners would not have sufficient time to assess properly.

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[crypticj]

Call me cynical, suspicious, paranoid, whatever. But it seems increasing likely to me that the Hegelian dialectic will be invoked: a major crisis will be provoked somehow, sometime. And someone will step forward, perhaps even Satoshi himself will emerge from the shadows to do it, and propose a drastic or radical change to "save" us all

And it will all have been one big trick, and the joke will be on those that blindly follow through fear.

lol... the comment about satoshi emerging made me laugh... I don't care even if jesus himself shows up No-one in bitcoin community/devs/miners/hardware makers/exchanges/users or anyone will be able reach consensus because they all have different agenda which are contradictory to each other.


 

[kelsey]

lets be honest without the whales (and manipulation) Bitcoin would be only priced on its true worth and that would be approaching zero 

I partially agree but was that what really caused Bitcoin to be valued so highly? Back when it started out, there were only whales, remember? And that's when Bitcoin was virtually zero cents. I think the "manipulation" is highly natural and only possible when there weren't only whales. In any case, they're like anything else: can't live with/without =)

at the start when the price was very low, the largest holders weren't really whales as the coins had low price so even the largest holders weren't worth much. and unlike today it was not the largest holders that manipulated the price early on.

bitcoin price gain in the early period, when exchanges first started, was 100% the early exchanges simply lying about the bitcoin price every day on their books (so not whale manipulation like today), this gave the intial price breakthroughs $1 + etc right up to even gox doing it through the $200 mark.
this has been confessed to by early exchanges owners, and proven in gox books etc.

yes as you say you need more then whales for current price manipulation, obviously you need both the manipulator and the manipulatees.

[kelsey]

when printed in black and white this outlook is really sad
and it is looking more and more like this to me
so much for an alternative to the FIAT system which we are all still tied to
nope it seems just as corrupt

could not agree more.

although tis not like its anything new in bitcoin, i left the scene originally around when btc was $5 and by what was going on, i'd come to the same conclusion way back then  

[iamnotback]

This has just turned into a pissing contest. Nobody is open for some compromise and everyone wants their side to win with whatever they are fighting.

Bitcoin was designed this way on purpose in order to protect the immutability of its laws (aka protocol).

John Nash designed Bitcoin with a game theory of a non-cooperating game, meaning that there can be no changes because the participants are inherently non-cooperating.

For me, this is almost the "true spirit" of Bitcoin- no one agrees with another, and this agreement is not required...

However, if this goes on, bitcoin will really become an electronic asset/store of value, and no longer a efficient payment channel.

I dont agree with you, because we need to make an agreement or reach a consensus to improve bitcoin.

Learn game theory please before you think you are thinking. You are not thinking.

and an immutable system doesn't need nor want development, and is designed to resist any breach of immutability.  

Except when there exists overwhelming consensus to enact changes, that is.

I am actually going to agree with you 100%. One such example would be quantum resistant protocol changes. That would focus minds.

Overwhelming consensus only exists on those things which benefit everyone pretty much equally, which was precisely the point that @dinofelis and I made about the game theory of PoW being crab bucket mentality.

And that is why you'll never see any consensus on block size or SegWit, other than to defend the status quo which is the Schelling point of the whales (i.e. pull everyone back into the crab bucket so nobody gets an "unfair" advantage).

Schelling point. Learn it.

Meh... even if it could be true, they can only play that game for so long before undermining the fundamentals so its pointless...therefore improbable.

The fundamentals are that Bitcoin's value is due to being able to trust that its laws never change. This is why whales store their reserves in BTC.

It is not pointless. And just because you are a BU shill, the reality will not change to accommodate your pathetic activity of being a pawn that Jihan Wu is using and will throw in the garbage when he is done using you.

[iamnotback]

People (like me) who might be thinking that Bitcoin is a platform that can really transform the whole world and can really be a big push for human development can be in for a big disappointment. It is just like any other nice technology or development introduced by man and can also be corrupted along the way because Bitcoin or cryptocurrency has no power to change human nature. We are still bringing the kind of greed and selfishness we have and this is quite true with the raging debate in the Bitcoin right now. While we seem to criticize the world order as it is now and how Bitcoin can change the system, people in the Bitcoin community are sadly manifesting the same sickness and the same traits we want to avoid. This can be getting so ironic but not surprising to me.

The fundamental solution to eliminate greed and power vacuums requires a shift away from fungible money to knowledge trading in Inverse Commons.

I have a plan.

Well if you are so tired of all of it I think you need to take a break and take a moment of silent or stop thinking about it, I think you are pretty stress out of the over and over topic and the nonsense that have been driven all people to be crazy with something about bitcoin well I will not make a rant because all of us are only human that need some rest with this kind of issues.

I mean I am tired of the greed and power vacuums, not that I am tired of only this specific instance them. Those negative attributes of fungible money are very noisy and waste so much of humanity's resources.

[iamnotback]

No way it's set up so that you can 'activate' ASICboost with a software update. Why would you allocate wafer space to equipment that isn't functional?

Recognize conspiracy type thinking and ignore it.

Incorrect.

My understanding is that ASICboost can use the exact same hardware as a normal SHA256 ASIC, except the hardware is preconfigured internally so it is possible to bypass certain expander portions of the circuit, and the extra computations for organizing the redundancy are not very computationally expensive and so can be done by an external CPU.

[iamnotback]

What did you guys expect? Seriously?


It's very rare, almost non-existent that we get to see battles in the free market. And when we do, we see how ugly things get. We are witnessing a true, free market battle in Crypto-currency space right now. That's a beautiful thing!

Normally, in politics we vote and a majority imposes their will on a minority. The loser must it accept it as morally virtuous and take it up the ass. This one-size-fits-all solution called Government is imposed on a population of 350 Million and nobody finds that outrageous because they're all Socialist, flag waving, sheep.

Sure, politics gets violently ugly and usually comes to a head with mass genocide, but people quickly forget and who cares because the only possibility is Democracy, right?

We don't get to see the "alt-coins" in government because government is by definition a monopoly (lack of free choice).

When we don't get to see the market place of ideas in action, we don't even know how ugly it can be. Let me clarify: Debating and name calling can be ugly and nasty, but it sure beats a mass genocide under an authoritarian regime!

So we're all sick and tired of the squabbling, fighting, whatever. I'll admit that I am too, but we really need to change our perspective.

Things will work themselves out (provided government doesn't step in a fuck this up completely!). Miners, whales, etc. will be punished if they push their limits too far. They can get away with a certain amount because BTC is the only rock solid, store of value crypto at the moment. Don't worry, it can be dethroned, we just haven't seen things get to that point yet.

The market will work this out and who are you or I to say who's corrupt, greedy etc. or claim "the outlook is sad". Stop investing emotionally and diversify yourself so that you aren't overly attached to any one currency, including BTC!

If Bitcoin loses because of greed and corruption then that's absolutely fantastic! If you view it any other way, then I'd say you're probably holding too much BTC at the moment.

If only governments could lose because of greed and corruption... just imagine!

The free market "fails"¹ where there are winner-take-all power vacuums in the structure of the organizational paradigm.

I have showed mathematically that Bitcoin and fungible money are winner-take-all power vacuums.

So we are not displacing/eliminating government. We are simply replacing the power vacuum of democracy (because voting is not cost free) with the power vacuum of fungible finance. Actually these two have always been intimately interlinked, i.e. the banksters own the government.

Bitcoin ultimately changes nothing EXCEPT that it enables unregulated experimentation in altcoins. Which appears to be Nash's brilliance, as I had been stating since 2014 that Satoshi had outsmarted the elite.

¹ Actually it destroys the paradigm (often with much collateral damage to participants) in a creative destruction to keep experimentation of dynamic, resilient fitness moving forward to find a better fit paradigm.

[iamnotback]

@dinofelis, sorry to bury your excellent posts, but I think this deserves a response...

After thinking about this more...

Certainly, after the "powers that be" see the biggest alts gaining ground on Bitcoin (as far as utility, transactions, and market cap), which they already are, eventually both sides will come to the bargaining table and compromise, no? It may be a while though until they "see the light" so to speak. It looks like "alt coin mania" will continue for now until they do.

No because:

1. Some of them will be profiting on the rise of these other altcoins. Please understand that John Nash designed the game theory of Bitcoin such that consensus is impossible.

2. Because Bitcoin will always be the reserve currency of unregulated speculation, so Bitcoin doesn't give a fuck about payments and other features:

I wrote something in private that I wanted to share, so I decided to stick it here.

To win against Bitcoin, an altcoin must have something other (and more significant) than just speculation. Bitcoin will always parasite on all speculation in the overall blockchain speculation ecosystem even its marketcap is less than 50% of the ecosystem (as long as it is the largest).

Evidence:

as a trader i like the mess and the drama  

[Invincible]

Ok, ok , now im tired of this shit, just stop lifting it 

[Carlton Banks]

Call me cynical, suspicious, paranoid, whatever. But it seems increasing likely to me that the Hegelian dialectic will be invoked: a major crisis will be provoked somehow, sometime. And someone will step forward, perhaps even Satoshi himself will emerge from the shadows to do it, and propose a drastic or radical change to "save" us all

And it will all have been one big trick, and the joke will be on those that blindly follow through fear.

lol... the comment about satoshi emerging made me laugh... I don't care even if jesus himself shows up No-one in bitcoin community/devs/miners/hardware makers/exchanges/users or anyone will be able reach consensus because they all have different agenda which are contradictory to each other.


 

That was me, not The One.


And you're wrong. Or at least I believe you could be.

Satoshi turning up now would not make enough difference, I agree with that, there's no panic now (not among Bitcoin supportres, at least ). But in a serious crisis, Satoshi reappearing and telling everyone "do this" would be very powerful, especially if some kind of time limit was involved.

And it might not even be the real Satoshi, all one needs to impersonate Satoshi is access to a Satoshi email account, Satoshi's old PGP key and maybe his forum account here on Bitcointalk. Someone began to use Hal Finney's account recently in exactly the same way.


If Satoshi returns to "show us the way" when the clock is ticking in or on the way to a major crisis, it might not even be him. Do not underestimate the lengths that the money powers will go to to keep control of the money power. Trust yourself, trust your logic. You are the one you have been searching for.

[iamnotback]

Call me cynical, suspicious, paranoid, whatever. But it seems increasing likely to me that the Hegelian dialectic will be invoked: a major crisis will be provoked somehow, sometime. And someone will step forward, perhaps even Satoshi himself will emerge from the shadows to do it, and propose a drastic or radical change to "save" us all

And it will all have been one big trick, and the joke will be on those that blindly follow through fear.

lol... the comment about satoshi emerging made me laugh... I don't care even if jesus himself shows up No-one in bitcoin community/devs/miners/hardware makers/exchanges/users or anyone will be able reach consensus because they all have different agenda which are contradictory to each other.


 

You are correct. Because the vested interests that the competing parties have forbid them from making consensus, even if Satoshi was God, they can't listen to him due to economics.

[crypticj]

Yep too much money on line for people. Agreed +1

[Mr.Charlie]

For me, this is almost the "true spirit" of Bitcoin- no one agrees with another, and this agreement is not required...

However, if this goes on, bitcoin will really become an electronic asset/store of value, and no longer a efficient payment channel.

ive always looked at bitcoin that way. before bitcoin, i was a physical gold/silver holder. i also dove deep into how money became money and how it led to centralized controlled fiat currency.

mike maloney is a very smart man and educator on this issue.

[Mr.Charlie]

Call me cynical, suspicious, paranoid, whatever. But it seems increasing likely to me that the Hegelian dialectic will be invoked: a major crisis will be provoked somehow, sometime. And someone will step forward, perhaps even Satoshi himself will emerge from the shadows to do it, and propose a drastic or radical change to "save" us all

And it will all have been one big trick, and the joke will be on those that blindly follow through fear.

lol... the comment about satoshi emerging made me laugh... I don't care even if jesus himself shows up No-one in bitcoin community/devs/miners/hardware makers/exchanges/users or anyone will be able reach consensus because they all have different agenda which are contradictory to each other.


 

You are correct. Because the vested interests that the competing parties have forbid them from making consensus, even if Satoshi was God, they can't listen to him due to economics.

very true statements!

[The One]

Call me cynical, suspicious, paranoid, whatever. But it seems increasing likely to me that the Hegelian dialectic will be invoked: a major crisis will be provoked somehow, sometime. And someone will step forward, perhaps even Satoshi himself will emerge from the shadows to do it, and propose a drastic or radical change to "save" us all

And it will all have been one big trick, and the joke will be on those that blindly follow through fear.

lol... the comment about satoshi emerging made me laugh... I don't care even if jesus himself shows up No-one in bitcoin community/devs/miners/hardware makers/exchanges/users or anyone will be able reach consensus because they all have different agenda which are contradictory to each other.


 

That was me, not The One.

Generous of you to point it out.

[YuginKadoya]

Well if you are so tired of all of it I think you need to take a break and take a moment of silent or stop thinking about it, I think you are pretty stress out of the over and over topic and the nonsense that have been driven all people to be crazy with something about bitcoin well I will not make a rant because all of us are only human that need some rest with this kind of issues.

It is very difficult to talk about rest, when it was not very long. Constant stress and time spent on the Internet with bitcoin trade, always get tired both physically and morally. Of course, just say that everything is tired, but when you can not do it without it, you will continue always and constantly.

Well he's really stress out your mind and body needs some relaxation just for a bit I think it can not harm even a 2 hours nap will do, because even stress can be very fatal to our body and I know that bitcoin trading is so stressful when something like your money was wasted when the value drop or you got a wrong trade and you had lost all your money with it, you can really feel stress by seeing that, and if you can not stop in doing bitcoin I think you are addicted with it!