Who else is tired of this shit?

[iamnotback]

I am tired of this shit...

First item is to understand why Blockstream refused to accept 2MB blocks along with SegWit.

It is not that they feel that 1MB is the optimal number (if the max block size was currently 2MB, they would not be pushing for the max block size to be lowered to 1MB), and it is not that they are against 2MB blocks in itself, it is that they are against any max block size increase ever.

From the core roadmap https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011865.html

Finally--at some point the capacity increases from the above may not
be enough.  Delivery on relay improvements, segwit fraud proofs, dynamic
block size controls, and other advances in technology will reduce the risk
and therefore controversy around moderate block size increase proposals
(such as 2/4/8 rescaled to respect segwit's increase). Bitcoin will
be able to move forward with these increases when improvements and
understanding render their risks widely acceptable relative to the
risks of not deploying them. In Bitcoin Core we should keep patches
ready to implement them as the need and the will arises, to keep the
basic software engineering from being the limiting factor.

They want improvement and security BEFORE raising the blocksize, nowhere does it say 1mb forever.

But Blockstream's stated logic above makes no sense. The real reason Blockstream doesn't want 2MB blocks now can only be because of what I explained earlier (because there is no other plausible reason that makes any sense).

It makes no sense from both a technology standpoint (i.e. afaik SegWit adds no significant reliability and security that would alleviate issues that a 2MB block could cause, instead the improvements of SegWit are bugs fixes for things that have nothing to do with block size)  and also because it is quite clear that they know Bitmain can covertly block all block size increases, so they know that the 2MB offer is actually a clever ploy of Bitmain wherein Bitmain's own customers will end up blocking the block size increase (so Bitmain can deny that they did it) and also because Blockstream knows they become irrelevant once the market has SegWit and block size increases. The market won't be in any rush to accept further protocol changes from Blockstream. So Blockstream is fighting for their control against Bitmain. So then if you understand all this I have written, then you understand that Bitmain is really against block size increases, but they have such a clever strategy that they can make it appear that they are for larger block sizes. The covert aspect of asicboost is a very key component to the masterful chess that Bitmain is playing. Bitmain's goal is to keep the protocol immutable and to destroy Blockstream. Very simple. But they have a clever strategy which obscures their actual intentions. Blockstream's goal is to be in control of the changes to Bitcoin's protocol.

Read again Bitmain's statement with this new analysis in mind.

I enjoy figuring out these mental chess challenges. That is why I do it. Not because I am for or against anything. I am trying to help readers understand the facts.

First item is to understand why Blockstream refused to accept 2MB blocks along with SegWit.

I haven't actually looked to see their official stated reason, but I can guess that it must be because they know they each time they want to "upgrade" the protocol, they need have some carrot and stick that forces the market to want their upgrade. So keeping blocksize very constrained is necessary so that Blockstream remains in control of the protocol.

In other words, Blockstream can't accept 2MB blocks, because they know their business model depends on them being in control of the protocol of Bitcoin. Also factor in that maybe Bitmain has told them behind the curtain that Bitmain will block all their future protocol changes after the 2MB+SegWit. Blockstream probably couldn't repeat that in public, because Bitmain would deny it and accuse Blockstream of fabricating lies.

Am I correct so far?

First item is to understand why Blockstream refused to accept 2MB blocks along with SegWit.

I haven't actually looked to see their official stated reason, but I can guess that it must be because they know they each time they want to "upgrade" the protocol, they need have some carrot and stick that forces the market to want their upgrade. So keeping blocksize very constrained is necessary so that Blockstream remains in control of the protocol.

In other words, Blockstream can't accept 2MB blocks, because they know their business model depends on them being in control of the protocol of Bitcoin. Also factor in that maybe Bitmain has told them behind the curtain that Bitmain will block all their future protocol changes after the 2MB+SegWit.

Am I correct so far?

It could be a matter of opinion. Or maybe you have perceived one actors tactical methods used in pursuit of their strategic goals.

If you had the chance to get your most significant work approved (SegWit) and only had to accept a 2MB block, why wouldn't you do it?

It makes absolutely no sense. Can you think of any other rational explanation than the one I offered?

Even if Blockstream had an opinion that they don't like 2MB blocks, they wouldn't block their own work over such a small quibble. There has to be a more significant reason they refuse 2MB blocks with SegWit. I offered my reason. Is there any possible other reason that makes any sense?

(note I am so very sleepy, so we may have to continue this after I sleep)

Presuming I am correct that Bitmain knows that Blockstream will never accept a 2MB+SegWit proposal, then you can then re-analyze their statement knowing full well that he knows there will never be big blocks.

Furthermore Bitmain is challenging the community to make AsicBoost patent licensing accessible to everyone. And to enable AsicBoost in the most optimum way. But Bitmain already stated that larger blocks make AsicBoost less efficient.

And remember some "hacker" (which is actually Bitmain but nobody can prove it) can release the covert upgrade so all Bitmain's [existing customers who own] miners on the planet could increase their efficiency and side-step the patent (and also they would be against large blocks).

So Bitmain is total BS about wanting larger blocks. Bitmain is trying to destroy Blockstream by never allowing them to get any protocol changes at all. That is why they proposed the 2MB+SegWit at HongKong. And that is why @Gmaxwell is wanting to block the covert AsicBoost.

But Bitmain has checkmated Blockstream. Think it out. I am too sleepy to explain all the detailed reasoning.

So I hope you understand that I don't think Bitmain nor its customers are currently employing asicboost in mining. Rather Bitmain has an installed base of customers worldwide (where the patent is a liability for the customers) whose hardware could suddenly be made more efficient if Bitmain were to release the software/firmware upgrade to enable asicboost.

Thus Bitmain has a poison pill on any block size increases which won't pin the blame on them for the failure of any soft (or hard) fork which attempts a block size increase. Because a "hacker" (who is actually Bitmain) could release the covert asicboost upgrade over the Internet, and then all those Bitmain customers would be economically incentivized to employ it and to block both block size increases and @gmaxwell's overt BIP (which is supposed to block the covert form of asic boost but not the overt form). Or even some clever people might reverse engineer and design the upgrade from scratch and release it. The point is the customers of Bitmain wouldn't want to run the overt asic boost because they wouldn't want patent liability. And those customers would also not want block size increases because asic boost looses efficiency with larger block sizes.

So Bitmain can block any block size increases without it even being provable that they did obstruct it. It can be made to appear that Bitmain was the good guy and was supporting 2MB blocks, but in fact behind the scenes Bitmain has already told Blockstream the truth and Blockstream is realizing they are fucked and trying to find a way to fight back, but it is too late, they are already checkmated by Bitmain's very clever strategy.

Bitmain urges the community to make the patent licensing available to all (not their patent but the patents held by others on asicboost) so it appears Bitmain is the good guys. Yet in reality, Bitmain knows that the patent licensing won't be forthcoming because you can't organize such a thing given there are multiple patent holders in different jurisdictions. Thus Bitmain knows the covert upgrade is the poison pill that blocks any thing Blockstream would attempt to do. Blockstream is now frantic and desperate.

Given the Chinese now know they have us by the balls, they are always manipulating the LTC markets as well. Using all this to pump up and crash the LTC price at will and taking more BTC from all of us.

I am hating PoW even more. I want to make those ASICs irrelevant. I want to eliminate PoW. I am so tired of all this fighting and manipulation. Before I supported Bitcoin because I thought it was a stable and politics-free reserve currency of the altcoins which I could hold without losing my time on this shit. Now these fuckers have turned the Bitcoin into a fucking noise that makes it just not worth it.

I will kill this shit. I hope you guys understand what is really going on.

I don't take sides. Bitmain is attempting to maintain immutability. Blockstream is attempting to take control and gain mutability. And all the fuckers involved are gaming this shit and making it a huge fucking mess. So we need to destroy this shit and replace it with something that actually works properly without any possible politics.

Impossible? Maybe. But I love a challenging goal.

I also think that giving every asicboost for free means that no one will have the advantage, and so now one will stand to lose anything by going with bigger blocks.

Not everybody has Bitmain's hardware. Not everybody is willing to risk the liability of running a (potentially) patented thing covertly. It is just simple economics. Miners are forced to support what gives them an economic advantage.

Why would Bitmain not want a larger max block size? Larger blocks will ultimately lead to additional total tx fees (and in turn higher overall block rewards), both of which will lead to greater profitability of those who run their equipment, which would theoretically lead to higher market prices for their equipment, and most importantly, more profits for them.

1. Because killing Blockstream and removing their ability to destroy Bitmain (and Bitcoin) by controlling the protocol is more important.

2. Because SegWit can be added on Litecoin where they can still earn all those fees, and Blockstream will be impotent.

It all about removing the coup d'etat of Blockstream.

In that way I like Bitmain, but as I said the Chinese are fucking with us and making it a fucking mess. I really blame PoW, because PoW makes all of this shit possible.

Can there be a better way? Maybe not. Maybe yes. I have ideas I need to go work on.

So are there are any objections to my analysis of this fucking mess?

I also think that giving every asicboost for free means that no one will have the advantage, and so now one will stand to lose anything by going with bigger blocks.

Not everybody has Bitmain's hardware. Not everybody is willing to risk the liability of running a (potentially) patented thing covertly. It is just simple economics. Miners are forced to support what gives them an economic advantage.

but Bitmain said he would want to work with other patent holders to null and void the patents and make it available to everyone.

his reasoning was, its better for bitcoin's security, to have an extra 20% hashpower over all, then drop hashing power by disabling his (potential) advantage.

I already refuted that:

Bitmain urges the community to make the patent licensing available to all (not their patent but the patents held by others on asicboost) so it appears Bitmain is the good guys. Yet in reality, Bitmain knows that the patent licensing won't be forthcoming because you can't organize such a thing given there are multiple patent holders in different jurisdictions. Thus Bitmain knows the covert upgrade is the poison pill that blocks any thing Blockstream would attempt to do. Blockstream is now frantic and desperate.

Can anyone find a flaw in my analysis?

Can anyone find a flaw in my analysis?

not really. it rings a tad false to me, and seems highly speculative, but its a workable theory...

If you can't come up with an alternative ECONOMICALLY plausible theory, then you'll know mine isn't speculative.

You can't just believe what people say. You have to analyze if what they say makes any sense or not.

I really blame PoW, because PoW makes all of this shit possible.

+1

and your analysis makes sense to me

Thank you.

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[Viscount]

If you're tired just retire, I certainly tired of the likes of you and wont miss

[iamnotback]

If you're tired just retire, I certainly tired of the likes of you and wont miss

Which side of the BU versus Blockstream nonsense brigade are you on Mr. Offended By Facts?

So I see you're not so tired as you claim, while posting 6000 post, and wanna fight with fresh strength to lure more passangers on your altcoin titanik

It offends you that someone would care enough to try to fix the problem what you will label that person as a villian before even evaluating the outcome? You are an example of the shit I am tired of.

just stop moaning and get retired dude

If you're happiness is dependent on that fantasy, then you're going to be very unhappy.

[7788bitcoin]

For me, this is almost the "true spirit" of Bitcoin- no one agrees with another, and this agreement is not required...

However, if this goes on, bitcoin will really become an electronic asset/store of value, and no longer a efficient payment channel.

[Viscount]

If you're tired just retire, I certainly tired of the likes of you and wont miss

Which side of the BU versus Blockstream nonsense brigade are you on Mr. Offended By Facts?

just stop moaning and get retired dude

[iamnotback]

For me, this is almost the "true spirit" of Bitcoin- no one agrees with another, and this agreement is not required..

Agreed. Do you know the actual "true spirit" of Bitcoin and the very simple middle school level mathematical proof?

I hope you actually click those links and understand what Bitcoin really is and mathematically provably so.

However, if this goes on, bitcoin will really become an electronic asset/store of value, and no longer a efficient payment channel.

Is that a problem? Litecoin and others can take over the role of payment transactions. Bitcoin becomes the reserve currency.

[andyatcrux]

“You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”
― Robert A. Heinlein

And so the dance goes on.

[Viscount]

So I see you're not so tired as you claim, while posting 6000 post in less than an year, and wanna fight with fresh strength to lure more passangers on your altcoin titanik  

[iamnotback]

“You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”
― Robert A. Heinlein

And so the dance goes on.

So true. Apropos quote.

[Viscount]

"If you are not tired to shill for altcoins, you are not tired"

                                                                   ― Viscount

[iamnotback]

"If you are not tired to shill for altcoins, you are not tired"

                                                                   ― Viscount

Let's all stay on the ship lost at sea and force ourselves to strangle each other, because otherwise we are shilling. We must remain always one for all and all for one, because otherwise we are shilling.

Viscount is the most logical man.

When you are shilling for freedom you are shilling for freedom

Keep the slaves locked up on the tragedy-of-the-commons farm.

Viscount is the most ethical man.

Please go buy more LTC before it goes to the mars and hope it doesn't crash land there, shill of LTC much?

Blame the manipulations on me? Do you think I have any fucking control over the Chinese. You are incredulous.

I have no choice but to find a ship that isn't lost at sea w.r.t. to payment scaling.

I have already wrote that the Chinese are also manipulating us with Litecoin and that I don't want to talk about that piece-of-shit any more.

I am not happy with any of it. CoinHoarder and I both agreed what we are tired of what PoW has become.

[Viscount]

"If you are not tired to shill for altcoins, you are not tired"

                                                                   ― Viscount

Viscount is the most logical man.

That's what I wouldn't say about you.
When you are shilling for altcoins you are shilling for altcoins

[Iranus]

"If you are not tired to shill for altcoins, you are not tired"

                                                                   ― Viscount

Let's all stay on the ship lost at sea and force ourselves to strangle each other, because otherwise we are shilling. We must remain always one for all and all for one, because otherwise we are shilling.

Viscount is the most logical man.

When you are shilling for freedom you are shilling for freedom

Keep the slaves locked up on the tragedy-of-the-commons farm.

Viscount is the most ethical man.

Please go buy more LTC before it goes to the mars and hope it doesn't crash land there, shill of LTC much?

Blame the manipulations on me? Do you think I have any fucking control over the Chinese. You are incredulous.

I have no choice but to find a ship that isn't lost at sea w.r.t. to payment scaling.

I have already wrote that the Chinese are also manipulating us with Litecoin and that I don't want to talk about that piece-of-shit any more.

I am not happy with any of it. CoinHoarder and I both agreed what we are tired of what PoW has become.

The reason that Bitcoin hasn't failed is a mixture of two things:

-Even less consensus from altcoins (they all have different intentions)

-Loads of people HODLing and not giving up for any logical reason.

The problem is that on the forum we have you favouring Litecoin (arguably the most logical standpoint, since it's well-established and SegWit is a possibility), loads of people favouring Ethereum, some potentially misled people favouring DASH, some people favouring the even less scalable Monero, et cetera, et cetera.  Even though the end goal is slightly less definitive, this should be viewed as a lack of consensus just like Bitcoin is struggling from.  Even if Syscoin has activated SegWit and Litecoin might activate it, there will be people flocking to coins left and right.

[FiendCoin]

So I see you're not so tired as you claim, while posting 6000 post in less than an year, and wanna fight with fresh strength to lure more passangers on your altcoin titanik  

iamnotback 24/7 shilling, just look at the timestamps on all the posts he's been making. A human would have went to bed by now 

[iamnotback]

The problem is that on the forum we have you favouring Litecoin (arguably the most logical standpoint, since it's well-established and SegWit is a possibility)

Let's make it clear that I don't want to hold LTC. I don't have many good choices right now for stability, so I had to choose something which might get payment scaling which might be considered good quality. What are my options? ETH? DASH? Come on. I hate all this shit. Bitcoin is becoming dominated by whales as the math insures it will. Yeah they have an incentive to protect the immutability of the protocol, but that does nothing to enable the knowledge age and bring value to us common men. And they are making the fucking ecosystem such a mess that it gives everybody a headache.

The entire ecosystem is about speculation poker. And robbing Peter to pay Paul.

And the manipulations are getting more and more bizarre. Mt. Gox was just a walk in the park compared to the sophistication of deceit being employed now.

[iamnotback]

So I see you're not so tired as you claim, while posting 6000 post in less than an year, and wanna fight with fresh strength to lure more passangers on your altcoin titanik  

iamnotback 24/7 shilling, just look at the timestamps on all the posts he's been making. A human would have went to bed by now 

I guess you two guys work for our Chinese overlords. I only slept 4 hours.

[FiendCoin]

So I see you're not so tired as you claim, while posting 6000 post in less than an year, and wanna fight with fresh strength to lure more passangers on your altcoin titanik  

iamnotback 24/7 shilling, just look at the timestamps on all the posts he's been making. A human would have went to bed by now 

I guess you two guys work for our Chinese overlords. I only slept 4 hours.

So, the last thing you did before you went to bed was post here and the first thing you did when you got up was post here?

[iamnotback]

Many of the so called Bitcoin maximalists are actually hypocrites who are secretly planning their own altcoin or already invested in one. So they use Bitcoin maximalism to attack anyone who shills an altcoin which isn't theirs, or if theirs is not yet a reality.

There are many levels of manipulation going on. Everyone is trying to manipulate. Everyone thinks they have some plan to get rich.

Just a reality we shouldn't pretend doesn't exist.

Bitcoin maximalist is yet another obfuscation of the real economic motivations. So many things are not what they seem to be.

Regards to the topic and Nash Equilibrium reminds me his criticism to Adam Smith theory about the 'individual ambition' ;-)

Agreed the murdered John Nash (aka Satoshi) is correct that we should not fight over the blonde, because we maximize our individual strategies in that case with a group strategy.

In the case of Bitcoin, Nash designed such that the whales have a crab bucket mentality w.r.t. any one whale being able to mutate the protocol and thus get an advantage over any other whale.

But I posit the mistake he made, is that I've shown the math that PoW eventually centralizes into one whale (or colluding set of whales) who can then at the point change the protocol and fuck over everyone else. Analogously, if one person was able to mathematically monopolize the blonde, he could force everyone else to take a second pick.

Game theory is complex. And Nash can make mistakes. He isn't perfect. Or perhaps Nash was just the symbolic face of Satoshi and not the one who made the actual PoW design.

Where does Nash state that asymptotic ideal money is where there are multiple competing currencies at one time? Thats not at all what I vot from reading his stuff.

In the section called "currencies in competition":

So here is the possibility of "asymptotically Ideal Money". Starting with the idea of value stabilization in relation to a domestic price index associated with the territory of one state, beyond that there is the natural and logical concept of internationally based comparisons.  The currencies being compared, like now the euro, the dollar, the yen, the pound, the swiss franc, the swedish kronor, etc. can be viewed with critical eyes by their users and by those who maybe have the option of whether or not or how to use one of them. This can lead to pressure for good quality and consequently for a lessened rate of inflationary deprecation in value.

So then you understand that Nash would have only made Bitcoin so that it could be forked and modified so there are many competing currencies which users can judge which one is the most stable and has the least corruption and manipulation.

Satoshi wanted altcoins.

[Lecter]

Let's make it clear that I don't want to hold LTC. I don't have many good choices right now for stability, so I had to choose something which might get payment scaling which might be considered good quality. What are my options? ETH? DASH? Come on. I hate all this shit. Bitcoin is becoming dominated by whales as the math insures it will. Yeah they have an incentive to protect the immutability of the protocol, but that does nothing to enable the knowledge age and bring value to us common men. And they are making the fucking ecosystem such a mess that it gives everybody a headache.

The entire ecosystem is about speculation poker. And robbing Peter to pay Paul.

And the manipulations are getting more and more bizarre. Mt. Gox was just a walk in the park compared to the sophistication of deceit being employed now.

Well said.  We're all standing in a cesspit of shitty cryptocurrencies being pushed by con-artists, whales, sociopaths and criminals.  It is a microcosm of Wall Street.  The sooner a Bitcoin killer comes along, the better.

[iamnotback]

The Bitcoin network has ass cancer and its name is Jihan Wu. He has been holding back our development for years and we did't even know it.

To paraphrase Thatcher: "there's no such thing as community", and an immutable system doesn't need nor want development, and is designed to resist any breach of immutability.  What you think are political manoeuvres, is nothing else but this immutability dynamics at work.  Naive people thought that bitcoin's protocol was a centrally decided and arbitrarily modified thing in the hands of Core, which acted as the reference authority in such matters, because they were the Pope, who got the keys to the paradise from Satoshi, God Almighty.  This worked out until they tried to push modifications that would profoundly modify the economical dynamics of bitcoin with the LN ; at that point, bitcoin's immutability dynamics stopped them.  Bitcoin's immutability dynamics is simply based upon the NON-existence of a community, but on the hypothesis of decentralization: the non-collusion of diverse interests in the system, not being able to agree over change that would give advantages to some and disadvantages to others.  In other words, decentralization makes as a basic assumption that there's no such thing as a colluding community, but results in immutability of history and protocol, because the diverse entities making up the ecosystem cannot come to a consensus over change, so de facto, they come to consensus over no change: immutability.

When looking at the trees, and not seeing the forest, this comes down to seeing "political disputes and hidden agendas".  But that's exactly what decentralisation is about: non-collusion !

+1

In the case of Bitcoin, Nash designed such that the whales have a crab bucket mentality w.r.t. any one whale being able to mutate the protocol and thus get an advantage over any other whale.

But could it be less noisy if the whales weren't able to threaten much harm? I have some ideas about making whales impotent.

Can whales threaten your Internet? Do you wake up every morning to fight for the future of the Internet. No. You just use it and expect it to work and it works.

and an immutable system doesn't need nor want development, and is designed to resist any breach of immutability.  

Except when there exists overwhelming consensus to enact changes, that is.

I am actually going to agree with you 100%. One such example would be quantum resistant protocol changes. That would focus minds.

Overwhelming consensus only exists on those things which benefit everyone pretty much equally, which was precisely the point that @dinofelis and I made about the game theory of PoW being crab bucket mentality.

And that is why you'll never see any consensus on block size or SegWit, other than to defend the status quo which is the Schelling point of the whales (i.e. pull everyone back into the crab bucket so nobody gets an "unfair" advantage).

Schelling point. Learn it.

[kelsey]

as a trader i like the mess and the drama 

[kelsey]

Given the Chinese now know they have us by the balls, they are always manipulating the LTC markets as well. Using all this to pump up and crash the LTC price at will and taking more BTC from all of us.

the LTC manipulators aren't trying to take BTC off you, to many LTC traders (including myself), LTC is BTC (without the premine).

and its not about chinese, just because the largest exchanges/farms are from china doesn't mean its the chinese (i trade 99% of my trades on chinese exchanges because thats where the liquidity is, and many of the chinese mining farms are back by US/european investors).

in anycase the current rise in LTC wasn't the chinese the chinese exchanges are lagging in that massively (because the big chinese exchanges only fiat can be withdrawn your LTC/BTC is currently locked).

in summary LTC/BTC is more crossboarder then you realise, when simply crediting any one national group with any control.

[kelsey]

But could it be less noisy if the whales weren't able to threaten much harm? I have some ideas about making whales impotent.

lets be honest without the whales (and manipulation) Bitcoin would be only priced on its true worth and that would be approaching zero 

[iamnotback]

But could it be less noisy if the whales weren't able to threaten much harm? I have some ideas about making whales impotent.

lets be honest without the whales (and manipulation) Bitcoin would be only priced on its true worth and that would be approaching zero  

Lol. So true. I had quoted your first comment already here.

[taxmanmt5]

But could it be less noisy if the whales weren't able to threaten much harm? I have some ideas about making whales impotent.

lets be honest without the whales (and manipulation) Bitcoin would be only priced on its true worth and that would be approaching zero 

I dont think this is an honest view that bitcoin will be zero without whales and manipulation. I think Bitcoin will still be much worth and people will still be using bitcoin. The only thing that wont happen is the sudden increase or decrease in prices of bitcoins.

[iamnotback]

Given the Chinese now know they have us by the balls, they are always manipulating the LTC markets as well. Using all this to pump up and crash the LTC price at will and taking more BTC from all of us.

the LTC manipulators aren't trying to take BTC off you

How do you justify the blatant BS linked above (your quote of me) wherein the Chinaman deliberately says some BS to crash the LTC price?

It's insane to see how that chink is blatantly manipulating the market and doing insider trading with an obvious short coupled with that tweet. Then "hey, just joking, segwit continues". And now this?

https://twitter.com/f2pool_wangchun/status/850070006830292992

This guy is a troll playing with people's money. He can crash the market one tweet at a time and keep making millions from the shorts. This is a dangerous game to play when you have to show up IRL and meet investors that get fucked by your tweets.

[kelsey]

But could it be less noisy if the whales weren't able to threaten much harm? I have some ideas about making whales impotent.

lets be honest without the whales (and manipulation) Bitcoin would be only priced on its true worth and that would be approaching zero 

I dont think this is an honest view that bitcoin will be zero without whales and manipulation. I think Bitcoin will still be much worth and people will still be using bitcoin. The only thing that wont happen is the sudden increase or decrease in prices of bitcoins.

lol where you around in the early gox era  

[iamnotback]

Readers a reminder to read the OP before voting.

[kelsey]

How do you justify the blatant BS linked above (your quote of me) wherein the Chinaman deliberately says some BS to crash the LTC price?

thats one tool in a pool of many. seen Americans (famous Bitcoin is a failed experiment line), Russians, Japanese all do the same bitcoin/crypto over its history.

[aoluain]

Im a newbie when it comes to crypto, im still learning and there is a lot.
Which i dont understand, and probably never will. There are things
Which are just too technical for me.

But this shit which has recently been uncovered im tired of already.

I doesnt surprise me one bit, it happens every day.

I thought cryptocurrencies was very simple and straight forward.
Obviously not, there are people ready to take advantage, cheat, con and manipulate,
Busines as usual and one of the ugly human traits - it sickens me.

Would love to see the goal posts moved and the rug pulled fro under them

[iamnotback]

How do you justify the blatant BS linked above (your quote of me) wherein the Chinaman deliberately says some BS to crash the LTC price?

thats one tool in a pool of many. seen Americans (famous Bitcoin is a failed experiment line), Russians, Japanese all do the same bitcoin/crypto over its history.

That is why we need an altcoin wherein the hodlers aren't speculating. They are using the tokens for something in which they have no desire to speculate with them.

With that wide base of transaction use which doesn't care about the exchange value, the manipulators will not be able to have much impact.

As I said, I have some ideas about how to make whales impotent. Traders won't like it, but long-term HODLers are going to love it, because it is deflationary, which is even better than Bitcoin (i.e. the coin supply will shrink forever never reaching 0).

[kelsey]

How do you justify the blatant BS linked above (your quote of me) wherein the Chinaman deliberately says some BS to crash the LTC price?

thats one tool in a pool of many. seen Americans (famous Bitcoin is a failed experiment line), Russians, Japanese all do the same bitcoin/crypto over its history.

That is why we need an altcoin wherein the hodlers aren't speculating. They are using the tokens for something in which they have no desire to speculate with them.

With that wide base of transaction use which doesn't care about the exchange value, the manipulators will not be able to have much impact.

As I said, I have some ideas about how to make whales impotent. Traders won't like it, but long-term HODLers are going to love it, because it is deflationary, which is even better than Bitcoin (i.e. the coin supply will shrink forever never reaching 0).

you know traders or even greed isn't always a negative, there can be win win economic scenario's where greed and speculation is a positive driving force.

though in crypto atm i would agree many traders/manipulators are behaving like chickens without heads and going for personal profit without any thought to the entire ecosystem. however that often goes with the territory, tis just in the wild west phase atm.

[Pursuer]

as a trader i like the mess and the drama 

haha, that is true!
the drama has always been good as long as you know which side you should stay on price-wise. for example a couple of hours ago F2Pool made some comments on twitter about having doubts about signaling SegWit, blah blah and that lead to me making about 15% profit on litecoin that I bought in the dip and that only took 6-7 hours.

[iamnotback]

How do you justify the blatant BS linked above (your quote of me) wherein the Chinaman deliberately says some BS to crash the LTC price?

thats one tool in a pool of many. seen Americans (famous Bitcoin is a failed experiment line), Russians, Japanese all do the same bitcoin/crypto over its history.

That is why we need an altcoin wherein the hodlers aren't speculating. They are using the tokens for something in which they have no desire to speculate with them.

With that wide base of transaction use which doesn't care about the exchange value, the manipulators will not be able to have much impact.

As I said, I have some ideas about how to make whales impotent. Traders won't like it, but long-term HODLers are going to love it, because it is deflationary, which is even better than Bitcoin (i.e. the coin supply will shrink forever never reaching 0).

you know traders or even greed isn't always a negative, there can be win win economic scenario's where greed and speculation is a positive driving force.

though in crypto atm i would agree many traders/manipulators are behaving like chickens without heads and going for personal profit without any thought to the entire ecosystem. however that often goes with the territory, tis just in the wild west phase atm.

Right now there is no significant rational use case for blockchains except greater fooling, gambling games, and "illegal activities" (there is a tiny bit of use as money transfer), thus the greed and selfish interest is not yet driving more productive use cases. And I agree because we are still in the Wild West phase. No one has yet produced an application of blockchains that has a broad use case other than greater fooling and Satoshi DICE offshoots.

"greater fooling" means speculation and making gains by bringing in more greater fools (otherwise it becomes a zero-sum game and most people would be losing and leave).

[btbrae]

I know it's all a big friggin' mess but you shouldn't take your life as every day is a new chapter. LTC will dive but it will have it's day in the sun again, in time. It does not need to be the end for you, I feel for you OP there are many of us in the same boat. Litecoin will come again. Charlie Lee will set you free. He will set us all free and we will rejoice. Have hope.

[mining1]

However, if this goes on, bitcoin will really become an electronic asset/store of value, and no longer a efficient payment channel.

Is that a problem? Litecoin and others can take over the role of payment transactions. Bitcoin becomes the reserve currency.

It can't be just a reserve currency/store of value, most investors would flee bitcoin in that case. Whales will not be able to keep the value high without greater fools.

[iamnotback]

However, if this goes on, bitcoin will really become an electronic asset/store of value, and no longer a efficient payment channel.

Is that a problem? Litecoin and others can take over the role of payment transactions. Bitcoin becomes the reserve currency.

It can't be just a reserve currency/store of value, most investors would flee bitcoin in that case. Whales will not be able to keep the value high without greater fools.

Those who aggregate speculation and finance of other activities (e.g. exchanges, future crypto banks) will choose to hold their reserves in BTC for as long as it is the highest liquidity, least volatile, most reliable, less experimental blockchain.

Those who want to turn Bitcoin into an experimental blockchain with block size increases, on chain settlement of off chain are messing with what gives Bitcoin its value.

For example, on chain settlement of off chain can have huge spikes in settlement transaction load thus causing volatility.

I am not trying to play sides by stating this. I am stating this as a programmer with 37 years of experience and I have become reasonably knowledgeable about blockchain technology and economics in my 4 years since I entered the Bitcoin ecosystem.

[Invincible]

I am not trying to play sides by stating this. I am stating this as a programmer with 37 years of experience and I have become reasonably knowledgeable about blockchain technology and economics in my 4 years since I entered the Bitcoin ecosystem.

I thought programmers are very busy people they don't have time to post loads of crap all day.

[buwaytress]

lets be honest without the whales (and manipulation) Bitcoin would be only priced on its true worth and that would be approaching zero 

I partially agree but was that what really caused Bitcoin to be valued so highly? Back when it started out, there were only whales, remember? And that's when Bitcoin was virtually zero cents. I think the "manipulation" is highly natural and only possible when there weren't only whales. In any case, they're like anything else: can't live with/without =)

[IadixDev]

Hello

Well not to sound harsh but ..

Yeah I think it's obvious by now what the world of crypto is coming at.

It's not going to help third world country to fight corruption in the financial world, or help micro economy.  It's just another toy millionere use to grab more millions from more people with gray area financial tactic in this unregulated world.

Crypto today are probably the most corrupt financial network. It's all about who you know rather than what you know. All about loyalty, not integrity.

If you know anything about real economics, you can say today 90% of it's value is a speculative bubble.

Can always pretend there is an hidden hand following market logic, but it's not the case, neither it's about investment in innovation, or for structueal development, it's all about clique making shady move for their own personal profits.

You can always try to understand the stake holders and mining farms and shakers and movers to put your stash on the right coin at the right moment, but it looks like italian football bet, french underground boxing bet.

All rigged up and you cant win big if you dont know who has stash involved. And it's not about knowing sport performance anymore. No more than it's about if coin is better than another.

For most people bitcoin is just a "get richer quick on the internet" scheme.

No need to beat around the bush for ever.

And im not even saying this to imply then what you do about it other than being angry about it on the Internet, or Go make your own

But need to face what crypto are today. It's not about technical innivation , or fixing financial world, developping micro economy, or any of this.

[iamnotback]

No need to beat around the bush for ever.

And im not even saying this to imply then what you do about it other than being angry about it on the Internet, or Go make your own

But need to face what crypto are today. It's not about technical innivation , or fixing financial world, developping micro economy, or any of this.

Those 3 lines I think are the most important.

[iamnotback]

I am not trying to play sides by stating this. I am stating this as a programmer with 37 years of experience and I have become reasonably knowledgeable about blockchain technology and economics in my 4 years since I entered the Bitcoin ecosystem.

I thought programmers are very busy people they don't have time to post loads of crap all day.

Oh you mean like ants who work furiously but can see beyond the bark on the tree much less over the trees.

Insight will beat code every damn time.

Thanks for the insult, but frankly I think you should stay focus on your toiling away on code that has little relevance.

[aoluain]

Hello

Well not to sound harsh but ..

Yeah I think it's obvious by now what the world of crypto is coming at.

It's not going to help third world country to fight corruption in the financial world, or help micro economy.  It's just another toy millionere use to grab more millions from more people with gray area financial tactic in this unregulated world.

Crypto today are probably the most corrupt financial network. It's all about who you know rather than what you know. All about loyalty, not integrity.

If you know anything about real economics, you can say today 90% of it's value is a speculative bubble.

Can always pretend there is an hidden hand following market logic, but it's not the case, neither it's about investment in innovation, or for structueal development, it's all about clique making shady move for their own personal profits.

You can always try to understand the stake holders and mining farms and shakers and movers to put your stash on the right coin at the right moment, but it looks like italian football bet, french underground boxing bet.

All rigged up and you cant win big if you dont know who has stash involved. And it's not about knowing sport performance anymore. No more than it's about if coin is better than another.

For most people bitcoin is just a "get richer quick on the internet" scheme.

No need to beat around the bush for ever.

And im not even saying this to imply then what you do about it other than being angry about it on the Internet, or Go make your own

But need to face what crypto are today. It's not about technical innivation , or fixing financial world, developping micro economy, or any of this.

when printed in black and white this outlook is really sad
and it is looking more and more like this to me
so much for an alternative to the FIAT system which we are all still tied to
nope it seems just as corrupt

"1.Introduction
Commerce on the Internet has come to rely almost exclusively on financial institutions serving as
trusted third  parties  to process electronic payments.   While the  system works  well enough for
most   transactions,   it   still   suffers   from   the   inherent   weaknesses   of   the   trust   based   model.
Completely non-reversible transactions are not really possible, since financial institutions cannot
avoid   mediating   disputes.     The   cost   of   mediation   increases   transaction   costs,   limiting   the
minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions,
and   there   is   a   broader   cost   in   the   loss   of   ability   to   make   non-reversible   payments   for   non-
reversible services.  With the possibility of reversal, the need for trust spreads.  Merchants must
be wary of their customers, hassling them for more information than they would otherwise need.
A certain percentage of fraud is accepted as unavoidable.  These costs and payment uncertainties
can be avoided in person by using physical currency, but no mechanism exists to make payments
over a communications channel without a trusted party.
What is needed is an electronic payment system based on cryptographic proof instead of trust,
allowing any two willing parties to transact directly with each other without the need for a trusted
third  party.    Transactions  that  are  computationally  impractical  to   reverse   would  protect  sellers
from fraud, and routine escrow mechanisms could easily be implemented to protect buyers.   In
this paper, we propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer distributed
timestamp server to generate computational proof of the chronological order of transactions.  The
system   is   secure   as   long   as   honest   nodes   collectively   control   more   CPU   power   than   any
cooperating group of attacker nodes."

[Xester]

I am tired of this shit...

First item is to understand why Blockstream refused to accept 2MB blocks along with SegWit.

It is not that they feel that 1MB is the optimal number (if the max block size was currently 2MB, they would not be pushing for the max block size to be lowered to 1MB), and it is not that they are against 2MB blocks in itself, it is that they are against any max block size increase ever.

From the core roadmap https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011865.html

Finally--at some point the capacity increases from the above may not
be enough.  Delivery on relay improvements, segwit fraud proofs, dynamic
block size controls, and other advances in technology will reduce the risk
and therefore controversy around moderate block size increase proposals
(such as 2/4/8 rescaled to respect segwit's increase). Bitcoin will
be able to move forward with these increases when improvements and
understanding render their risks widely acceptable relative to the
risks of not deploying them. In Bitcoin Core we should keep patches
ready to implement them as the need and the will arises, to keep the
basic software engineering from being the limiting factor.

They want improvement and security BEFORE raising the blocksize, nowhere does it say 1mb forever.

But Blockstream's stated logic above makes no sense. The real reason Blockstream doesn't want 2MB blocks now can only be because of what I explained earlier (because there is no other plausible reason that makes any sense).

It makes no sense from both a technology standpoint (i.e. afaik SegWit adds no significant reliability and security that would alleviate issues that a 2MB block could cause, instead the improvements of SegWit are bugs fixes for things that have nothing to do with block size)  and also because it is quite clear that they know Bitmain can covertly block all block size increases, so they know that the 2MB offer is actually a clever ploy of Bitmain wherein Bitmain's own customers will end up blocking the block size increase (so Bitmain can deny that they did it) and also because Blockstream knows they become irrelevant once the market has SegWit and block size increases. The market won't be in any rush to accept further protocol changes from Blockstream. So Blockstream is fighting for their control against Bitmain. So then if you understand all this I have written, then you understand that Bitmain is really against block size increases, but they have such a clever strategy that they can make it appear that they are for larger block sizes. The covert aspect of asicboost is a very key component to the masterful chess that Bitmain is playing. Bitmain's goal is to keep the protocol immutable and to destroy Blockstream. Very simple. But they have a clever strategy which obscures their actual intentions. Blockstream's goal is to be in control of the changes to Bitcoin's protocol.

Read again Bitmain's statement with this new analysis in mind.

I enjoy figuring out these mental chess challenges. That is why I do it. Not because I am for or against anything. I am trying to help readers understand the facts.

First item is to understand why Blockstream refused to accept 2MB blocks along with SegWit.

I haven't actually looked to see their official stated reason, but I can guess that it must be because they know they each time they want to "upgrade" the protocol, they need have some carrot and stick that forces the market to want their upgrade. So keeping blocksize very constrained is necessary so that Blockstream remains in control of the protocol.

In other words, Blockstream can't accept 2MB blocks, because they know their business model depends on them being in control of the protocol of Bitcoin. Also factor in that maybe Bitmain has told them behind the curtain that Bitmain will block all their future protocol changes after the 2MB+SegWit. Blockstream probably couldn't repeat that in public, because Bitmain would deny it and accuse Blockstream of fabricating lies.

Am I correct so far?

First item is to understand why Blockstream refused to accept 2MB blocks along with SegWit.

I haven't actually looked to see their official stated reason, but I can guess that it must be because they know they each time they want to "upgrade" the protocol, they need have some carrot and stick that forces the market to want their upgrade. So keeping blocksize very constrained is necessary so that Blockstream remains in control of the protocol.

In other words, Blockstream can't accept 2MB blocks, because they know their business model depends on them being in control of the protocol of Bitcoin. Also factor in that maybe Bitmain has told them behind the curtain that Bitmain will block all their future protocol changes after the 2MB+SegWit.

Am I correct so far?

It could be a matter of opinion. Or maybe you have perceived one actors tactical methods used in pursuit of their strategic goals.

If you had the chance to get your most significant work approved (SegWit) and only had to accept a 2MB block, why wouldn't you do it?

It makes absolutely no sense. Can you think of any other rational explanation than the one I offered?

Even if Blockstream had an opinion that they don't like 2MB blocks, they wouldn't block their own work over such a small quibble. There has to be a more significant reason they refuse 2MB blocks with SegWit. I offered my reason. Is there any possible other reason that makes any sense?

(note I am so very sleepy, so we may have to continue this after I sleep)

Presuming I am correct that Bitmain knows that Blockstream will never accept a 2MB+SegWit proposal, then you can then re-analyze their statement knowing full well that he knows there will never be big blocks.

Furthermore Bitmain is challenging the community to make AsicBoost patent licensing accessible to everyone. And to enable AsicBoost in the most optimum way. But Bitmain already stated that larger blocks make AsicBoost less efficient.

And remember some "hacker" (which is actually Bitmain but nobody can prove it) can release the covert upgrade so all Bitmain's [existing customers who own] miners on the planet could increase their efficiency and side-step the patent (and also they would be against large blocks).

So Bitmain is total BS about wanting larger blocks. Bitmain is trying to destroy Blockstream by never allowing them to get any protocol changes at all. That is why they proposed the 2MB+SegWit at HongKong. And that is why @Gmaxwell is wanting to block the covert AsicBoost.

But Bitmain has checkmated Blockstream. Think it out. I am too sleepy to explain all the detailed reasoning.

So I hope you understand that I don't think Bitmain nor its customers are currently employing asicboost in mining. Rather Bitmain has an installed base of customers worldwide (where the patent is a liability for the customers) whose hardware could suddenly be made more efficient if Bitmain were to release the software/firmware upgrade to enable asicboost.

Thus Bitmain has a poison pill on any block size increases which won't pin the blame on them for the failure of any soft (or hard) fork which attempts a block size increase. Because a "hacker" (who is actually Bitmain) could release the covert asicboost upgrade over the Internet, and then all those Bitmain customers would be economically incentivized to employ it and to block both block size increases and @gmaxwell's overt BIP (which is supposed to block the covert form of asic boost but not the overt form). Or even some clever people might reverse engineer and design the upgrade from scratch and release it. The point is the customers of Bitmain wouldn't want to run the overt asic boost because they wouldn't want patent liability. And those customers would also not want block size increases because asic boost looses efficiency with larger block sizes.

So Bitmain can block any block size increases without it even being provable that they did obstruct it. It can be made to appear that Bitmain was the good guy and was supporting 2MB blocks, but in fact behind the scenes Bitmain has already told Blockstream the truth and Blockstream is realizing they are fucked and trying to find a way to fight back, but it is too late, they are already checkmated by Bitmain's very clever strategy.

Bitmain urges the community to make the patent licensing available to all (not their patent but the patents held by others on asicboost) so it appears Bitmain is the good guys. Yet in reality, Bitmain knows that the patent licensing won't be forthcoming because you can't organize such a thing given there are multiple patent holders in different jurisdictions. Thus Bitmain knows the covert upgrade is the poison pill that blocks any thing Blockstream would attempt to do. Blockstream is now frantic and desperate.

Given the Chinese now know they have us by the balls, they are always manipulating the LTC markets as well. Using all this to pump up and crash the LTC price at will and taking more BTC from all of us.

I am hating PoW even more. I want to make those ASICs irrelevant. I want to eliminate PoW. I am so tired of all this fighting and manipulation. Before I supported Bitcoin because I thought it was a stable and politics-free reserve currency of the altcoins which I could hold without losing my time on this shit. Now these fuckers have turned the Bitcoin into a fucking noise that makes it just not worth it.

I will kill this shit. I hope you guys understand what is really going on.

I don't take sides. Bitmain is attempting to maintain immutability. Blockstream is attempting to take control and gain mutability. And all the fuckers involved are gaming this shit and making it a huge fucking mess. So we need to destroy this shit and replace it with something that actually works properly without any possible politics.

Impossible? Maybe. But I love a challenging goal.

I also think that giving every asicboost for free means that no one will have the advantage, and so now one will stand to lose anything by going with bigger blocks.

Not everybody has Bitmain's hardware. Not everybody is willing to risk the liability of running a (potentially) patented thing covertly. It is just simple economics. Miners are forced to support what gives them an economic advantage.

Why would Bitmain not want a larger max block size? Larger blocks will ultimately lead to additional total tx fees (and in turn higher overall block rewards), both of which will lead to greater profitability of those who run their equipment, which would theoretically lead to higher market prices for their equipment, and most importantly, more profits for them.

1. Because killing Blockstream and removing their ability to destroy Bitmain (and Bitcoin) by controlling the protocol is more important.

2. Because SegWit can be added on Litecoin where they can still earn all those fees, and Blockstream will be impotent.

It all about removing the coup d'etat of Blockstream.

In that way I like Bitmain, but as I said the Chinese are fucking with us and making it a fucking mess. I really blame PoW, because PoW makes all of this shit possible.

Can there be a better way? Maybe not. Maybe yes. I have ideas I need to go work on.

So are there are any objections to my analysis of this fucking mess?

I also think that giving every asicboost for free means that no one will have the advantage, and so now one will stand to lose anything by going with bigger blocks.

Not everybody has Bitmain's hardware. Not everybody is willing to risk the liability of running a (potentially) patented thing covertly. It is just simple economics. Miners are forced to support what gives them an economic advantage.

but Bitmain said he would want to work with other patent holders to null and void the patents and make it available to everyone.

his reasoning was, its better for bitcoin's security, to have an extra 20% hashpower over all, then drop hashing power by disabling his (potential) advantage.

I already refuted that:

Bitmain urges the community to make the patent licensing available to all (not their patent but the patents held by others on asicboost) so it appears Bitmain is the good guys. Yet in reality, Bitmain knows that the patent licensing won't be forthcoming because you can't organize such a thing given there are multiple patent holders in different jurisdictions. Thus Bitmain knows the covert upgrade is the poison pill that blocks any thing Blockstream would attempt to do. Blockstream is now frantic and desperate.

Can anyone find a flaw in my analysis?

Can anyone find a flaw in my analysis?

not really. it rings a tad false to me, and seems highly speculative, but its a workable theory...

If you can't come up with an alternative ECONOMICALLY plausible theory, then you'll know mine isn't speculative.

You can't just believe what people say. You have to analyze if what they say makes any sense or not.

I really blame PoW, because PoW makes all of this shit possible.

+1

and your analysis makes sense to me

Thank you.

I am also tired of this. There are many explanations coming from both party but they dont speak about their flaws and only focused on the flaws of other groups. Both groups promises something but behind it they are the ones responsible in attacking the system.  This trend has become a war between  groups and the holders are now watching a war movie in the bitcoin network.

[aoluain]

How do you justify the blatant BS linked above (your quote of me) wherein the Chinaman deliberately says some BS to crash the LTC price?

thats one tool in a pool of many. seen Americans (famous Bitcoin is a failed experiment line), Russians, Japanese all do the same bitcoin/crypto over its history.

That is why we need an altcoin wherein the hodlers aren't speculating. They are using the tokens for something in which they have no desire to speculate with them.

With that wide base of transaction use which doesn't care about the exchange value, the manipulators will not be able to have much impact.

As I said, I have some ideas about how to make whales impotent. Traders won't like it, but long-term HODLers are going to love it, because it is deflationary, which is even better than Bitcoin (i.e. the coin supply will shrink forever never reaching 0).

you know traders or even greed isn't always a negative, there can be win win economic scenario's where greed and speculation is a positive driving force.

though in crypto atm i would agree many traders/manipulators are behaving like chickens without heads and going for personal profit without any thought to the entire ecosystem. however that often goes with the territory, tis just in the wild west phase atm.

Like halving a determined distance at every step............the two points in theory bever meet,
A bit mind bending, but interesting nonetheless

[Yuuto]

For me, this is almost the "true spirit" of Bitcoin- no one agrees with another, and this agreement is not required...

However, if this goes on, bitcoin will really become an electronic asset/store of value, and no longer a efficient payment channel.

I dont agree with you, because we need to make an agreement or reach a consensus to improve bitcoin.
Bitcoin is decentralized, that is one of the reasons that it is so hard to reach consensus: some people are behind SegWit and some behind BitcoinUnlimited.

Also, both "fractions" act like they are the worst enemies, instead of calm discussion to improve the technology.
I think that in any case, we need to make transaction faster and fees might be lower (I hope so).
This year is extremely interesting for bitcoin, I think that 2017 is actually a "bitcoin" year. We hear so much about it in our country ( in regular news ) that im actually amazed.
Im glad that more and more people are going for bitcoin, but we really need to stop arguing and go for reasonable solution.

[iamTom123]

Hello

Well not to sound harsh but ..

Yeah I think it's obvious by now what the world of crypto is coming at.

It's not going to help third world country to fight corruption in the financial world, or help micro economy.  It's just another toy millionere use to grab more millions from more people with gray area financial tactic in this unregulated world.

Crypto today are probably the most corrupt financial network. It's all about who you know rather than what you know. All about loyalty, not integrity.

If you know anything about real economics, you can say today 90% of it's value is a speculative bubble.

Can always pretend there is an hidden hand following market logic, but it's not the case, neither it's about investment in innovation, or for structueal development, it's all about clique making shady move for their own personal profits.

You can always try to understand the stake holders and mining farms and shakers and movers to put your stash on the right coin at the right moment, but it looks like italian football bet, french underground boxing bet.

All rigged up and you cant win big if you dont know who has stash involved. And it's not about knowing sport performance anymore. No more than it's about if coin is better than another.

For most people bitcoin is just a "get richer quick on the internet" scheme.

No need to beat around the bush for ever.

And im not even saying this to imply then what you do about it other than being angry about it on the Internet, or Go make your own

But need to face what crypto are today. It's not about technical innovation , or fixing financial world, developing micro economy, or any of this.

People (like me) who might be thinking that Bitcoin is a platform that can really transform the whole world and can really be a big push for human development can be in for a big disappointment. It is just like any other nice technology or development introduced by man and can also be corrupted along the way because Bitcoin or cryptocurrency has no power to change human nature. We are still bringing the kind of greed and selfishness we have and this is quite true with the raging debate in the Bitcoin right now. While we seem to criticize the world order as it is now and how Bitcoin can change the system, people in the Bitcoin community are sadly manifesting the same sickness and the same traits we want to avoid. This can be getting so ironic but not surprising to me.

[YuginKadoya]

Well if you are so tired of all of it I think you need to take a break and take a moment of silent or stop thinking about it, I think you are pretty stress out of the over and over topic and the nonsense that have been driven all people to be crazy with something about bitcoin well I will not make a rant because all of us are only human that need some rest with this kind of issues.

[xhiggy]

No way it's set up so that you can 'activate' ASICboost with a software update. Why would you allocate wafer space to equipment that isn't functional?

Recognize conspiracy type thinking and ignore it.

[btcbug]

Hello

Well not to sound harsh but ..

Yeah I think it's obvious by now what the world of crypto is coming at.

It's not going to help third world country to fight corruption in the financial world, or help micro economy.  It's just another toy millionere use to grab more millions from more people with gray area financial tactic in this unregulated world.

Crypto today are probably the most corrupt financial network. It's all about who you know rather than what you know. All about loyalty, not integrity.

If you know anything about real economics, you can say today 90% of it's value is a speculative bubble.

Can always pretend there is an hidden hand following market logic, but it's not the case, neither it's about investment in innovation, or for structueal development, it's all about clique making shady move for their own personal profits.

You can always try to understand the stake holders and mining farms and shakers and movers to put your stash on the right coin at the right moment, but it looks like italian football bet, french underground boxing bet.

All rigged up and you cant win big if you dont know who has stash involved. And it's not about knowing sport performance anymore. No more than it's about if coin is better than another.

For most people bitcoin is just a "get richer quick on the internet" scheme.

No need to beat around the bush for ever.

And im not even saying this to imply then what you do about it other than being angry about it on the Internet, or Go make your own

But need to face what crypto are today. It's not about technical innivation , or fixing financial world, developping micro economy, or any of this.

when printed in black and white this outlook is really sad
and it is looking more and more like this to me
so much for an alternative to the FIAT system which we are all still tied to
nope it seems just as corrupt

I'm going to provide a different perspective:


You're brainwashed!

What did you guys expect? Seriously?


It's very rare, almost non-existent that we get to see battles in the free market. And when we do, we see how ugly things get. We are witnessing a true, free market battle in Crypto-currency space right now. That's a beautiful thing!

Normally, in politics we vote and a majority imposes their will on a minority. The loser must it accept it as morally virtuous and take it up the ass. This one-size-fits-all solution called Government is imposed on a population of 350 Million and nobody finds that outrageous because they're all Socialist, flag waving, sheep.

Sure, politics gets violently ugly and usually comes to a head with mass genocide, but people quickly forget and who cares because the only possibility is Democracy, right?

We don't get to see the "alt-coins" in government because government is by definition a monopoly (lack of free choice).

When we don't get to see the market place of ideas in action, we don't even know how ugly it can be. Let me clarify: Debating and name calling can be ugly and nasty, but it sure beats a mass genocide under an authoritarian regime!

So we're all sick and tired of the squabbling, fighting, whatever. I'll admit that I am too, but we really need to change our perspective.

Things will work themselves out (provided government doesn't step in a fuck this up completely!). Miners, whales, etc. will be punished if they push their limits too far. They can get away with a certain amount because BTC is the only rock solid, store of value crypto at the moment. Don't worry, it can be dethroned, we just haven't seen things get to that point yet.

The market will work this out and who are you or I to say who's corrupt, greedy etc. or claim "the outlook is sad". Stop investing emotionally and diversify yourself so that you aren't overly attached to any one currency, including BTC!

If Bitcoin loses because of greed and corruption then that's absolutely fantastic! If you view it any other way, then I'd say you're probably holding too much BTC at the moment.

If only governments could lose because of greed and corruption... just imagine!

[IadixDev]

It's maybe bleak Outlook but seen this sort of things happening many time, hard not to see the pattern  

But still need to have faith in positive outcome lol even when things seems hopeless and sucks, it's the best time to focus on positive outcome and find good solution  

I watched ares yesterday also  ( http://m.imdb.com/title/tt4216902/ ) might taint my view lol

Reminded me of this with big labs giving product to boxer to rig the match out of big interest and no matter how good the boxer is, if he is not sponsored by the good lab he has no chance , and all is around economics interest for big corps and speculators while  the boxers get all the side effect of drugs, with all corruption lol

But even italian football has good players, and can be fun to watch, but the whole betting side is rigged, and in cahoot with sponsors etc etc

But it make people think they can become rich and famous being good at football, but in fact it's just about following sponsor interest lol

Same with betting, you can  try to bet based on sport speculation, and make some win, but if you know the mafia you can get rich very quick lol

Seem the same with crypto valuation a bit, it is more indexed on knowing whales and miners moves, than on the technical or utility value of the coin.


It's always the same thing in the end https://youtu.be/Dw4rtERX0zw

Maybe segwit can improve micro economic aspect, and least move some of the current power/weight repartition, and make it more stable but hard to say

[jonald_fyookball]

OP, can you state your point of this post in 1-2 short sentences?   Too much quoting this and rambling that.   

[Minecache]

If you're tired just retire, I certainly tired of the likes of you and wont miss

Which side of the BU versus Blockstream nonsense brigade are you on Mr. Offended By Facts?

So I see you're not so tired as you claim, while posting 6000 post, and wanna fight with fresh strength to lure more passangers on your altcoin titanik

It offends you that someone would care enough to try to fix the problem what you will label that person as a villian before even evaluating the outcome? You are an example of the shit I am tired of.

just stop moaning and get retired dude

If you're happiness is dependent on that fantasy, then you're going to be very unhappy.

BTC will never move on with characters like you around polluting people's minds.

[monsanto]

I don't know what's going on with this wall of text thread or how the various bitcoin blocksize shit storm will play out, but I am starting to consider the following: if you had thousands of bitcoins and could create a debate within the community that divided said community.. and you had insiders on both teams.. well then you pretty much control the price. In other words, not only we're a lot of these devs involved in the original mining of bitcoins.. but now they control the shitstorm which controls the price. No wonder these guys are filthy rich 

[IadixDev]

I don't know what's going on with this wall of text thread or how the various bitcoin blocksize shit storm will play out, but I am starting to consider the following: if you had thousands of bitcoins and could create a debate within the community that divided said community.. and you had insiders on both teams.. well then you pretty much control the price. In other words, not only we're a lot of these devs involved in the original mining of bitcoins.. but now they control the shitstorm which controls the price. No wonder these guys are filthy rich 

Cia did this many times 

[Carlton Banks]

I don't know what's going on with this wall of text thread or how the various bitcoin blocksize shit storm will play out, but I am starting to consider the following: if you had thousands of bitcoins and could create a debate within the community that divided said community.. and you had insiders on both teams.. well then you pretty much control the price. In other words, not only we're a lot of these devs involved in the original mining of bitcoins.. but now they control the shitstorm which controls the price. No wonder these guys are filthy rich  

Controlling the price is one option with that setup, and exchange insiders are no doubt making that happen.




What concerns me far more is some "voice of reason" stepping in with a poisoned compromise in a situation where everyone is panicking.


This is a classic deep state/shadow government technique:

take a thesis (Bitcoin), create it's anti-thesis (XT/Classic/BU etc), then have a pre-prepared synthesis to break the deadlock (but make sure to plan the anti-thesis carefully so that the synthesis step is very appealing, but ultimately gives the deep state as much power as possible)


thesis + antithesis = synthesis was described by social psychologist Hegel in the 19th century, and is commonly referred to as the "Hegelian dialectic".



I suspect an attempt to create such an appealing compromise has long since been in the works, and some well known and very trusted figure in the Bitcoin dev community has been positioned to "break their silence" to promote such a move.


But it will be a pre-prepared trick. Part of the problem with all the fork-coups thus far is that the trolls are suspiciously obvious alot of the time. It's almost as if they want to be just distrusted enough to set up the dialectic tension. I mean, who can really take Peter Rizun and BU seriously, he was always a bit of a joke with his fanatsy gif charts and his MS Paint pictures of a "Blocked Stream". And Mike Hearn was always just that little too off-message in cypher-punk anarchist terms, no-one who caught the Bitcoin bug would realistically follow Mike anywhere.

Call me cynical, suspicious, paranoid, whatever. But it seems increasing likely to me that the Hegelian dialectic will be invoked: a major crisis will be provoked somehow, sometime. And someone will step forward, perhaps even Satoshi himself will emerge from the shadows to do it, and propose a drastic or radical change to "save" us all

And it will all have been one big trick, and the joke will be on those that blindly follow through fear.

[PancherBitCoin]

Well if you are so tired of all of it I think you need to take a break and take a moment of silent or stop thinking about it, I think you are pretty stress out of the over and over topic and the nonsense that have been driven all people to be crazy with something about bitcoin well I will not make a rant because all of us are only human that need some rest with this kind of issues.

It is very difficult to talk about rest, when it was not very long. Constant stress and time spent on the Internet with bitcoin trade, always get tired both physically and morally. Of course, just say that everything is tired, but when you can not do it without it, you will continue always and constantly.

[crypticj]

+1 tired but still have faith in LTC and buying!!!

[JanpriX]

This has just turned into a pissing contest. Nobody is open for some compromise and everyone wants their side to win with whatever they are fighting. In the past few days, I just take some breather to get out of this drama and re-calibrate my thoughts about what's happening. Hopefully, all concerned parties will come to a solution that will provide better future for BTC.

[The One]

I don't know what's going on with this wall of text thread or how the various bitcoin blocksize shit storm will play out, but I am starting to consider the following: if you had thousands of bitcoins and could create a debate within the community that divided said community.. and you had insiders on both teams.. well then you pretty much control the price. In other words, not only we're a lot of these devs involved in the original mining of bitcoins.. but now they control the shitstorm which controls the price. No wonder these guys are filthy rich  

Controlling the price is one option with that setup, and exchange insiders are no doubt making that happen.




What concerns me far more is some "voice of reason" stepping in with a poisoned compromise in a situation where everyone is panicking.


This is a classic deep state/shadow government technique:

take a thesis (Bitcoin), create it's anti-thesis (XT/Classic/BU etc), then have a pre-prepared synthesis to break the deadlock (but make sure to plan the anti-thesis carefully so that the synthesis step is very appealing, but ultimately gives the deep state as much power as possible)


thesis + antithesis = synthesis was described by social psychologist Hegel in the 19th century, and is commonly referred to as the "Hegelian dialectic".



I suspect an attempt to create such an appealing compromise has long since been in the works, and some well known and very trusted figure in the Bitcoin dev community has been positioned to "break their silence" to promote such a move.


But it will be a pre-prepared trick. Part of the problem with all the fork-coups thus far is that the trolls are suspiciously obvious alot of the time. It's almost as if they want to be just distrusted enough to set up the dialectic tension. I mean, who can really take Peter Rizun and BU seriously, he was always a bit of a joke with his fanatsy gif charts and his MS Paint pictures of a "Blocked Stream". And Mike Hearn was always just that little too off-message in cypher-punk anarchist terms, no-one who caught the Bitcoin bug would realistically follow Mike anywhere.

Call me cynical, suspicious, paranoid, whatever. But it seems increasing likely to me that the Hegelian dialectic will be invoked: a major crisis will be provoked somehow, sometime. And someone will step forward, perhaps even Satoshi himself will emerge from the shadows to do it, and propose a drastic or radical change to "save" us all

And it will all have been one big trick, and the joke will be on those that blindly follow through fear.

Or both Core and BU want a hardfork, so they can pass 21m limit and get 42m.

[Carlton Banks]

This has just turned into a pissing contest. Nobody is open for some compromise and everyone wants their side to win with whatever they are fighting. In the past few days, I just take some breather to get out of this drama and re-calibrate my thoughts about what's happening. Hopefully, all concerned parties will come to a solution that will provide better future for BTC.

there are 3 sides:


"1 MB Forever" Immutability advocates

Including iamnotback, dinofelis and trainscarwreck. And that's all of them, the "Popular Front of Judea", lol. No one takes that view particularly seriously, but I sympathise with it to a degree.

"The Gamed Market decides" Infinity blocksize yesterday advocates

The dangerous group. Large numbers of very repetitive forum members, very thin (10%) representation in the Bitcoin network itself, and that's questionable. Mining represents 40% support for this group, but that's going to change for a variety of reasons

"One node one vote" Technical solution advocates

Yes, I'm biased towards this group. But I also don't like how big the blocks will be (4MB) either. Forum support is sporadic, but widespread within it's patchiness. Node support is highest (60%, or arguably higher if you count pre 13.1 Core nodes too). Mining support is lowest (30%), or maybe it's now about even with the 1MB-by-default miners who have abstained from signalling so far.



I fear a 4th side, like I mention on the previous page of this thread. All it would take is some kind of a major crisis to take place, and people could be panicked into choosing a cleverly contrived power grab with an appeal to authority of some kind, which Bitcoiners would not have sufficient time to assess properly.

[crypticj]

Call me cynical, suspicious, paranoid, whatever. But it seems increasing likely to me that the Hegelian dialectic will be invoked: a major crisis will be provoked somehow, sometime. And someone will step forward, perhaps even Satoshi himself will emerge from the shadows to do it, and propose a drastic or radical change to "save" us all

And it will all have been one big trick, and the joke will be on those that blindly follow through fear.

lol... the comment about satoshi emerging made me laugh... I don't care even if jesus himself shows up No-one in bitcoin community/devs/miners/hardware makers/exchanges/users or anyone will be able reach consensus because they all have different agenda which are contradictory to each other.


 

[kelsey]

lets be honest without the whales (and manipulation) Bitcoin would be only priced on its true worth and that would be approaching zero 

I partially agree but was that what really caused Bitcoin to be valued so highly? Back when it started out, there were only whales, remember? And that's when Bitcoin was virtually zero cents. I think the "manipulation" is highly natural and only possible when there weren't only whales. In any case, they're like anything else: can't live with/without =)

at the start when the price was very low, the largest holders weren't really whales as the coins had low price so even the largest holders weren't worth much. and unlike today it was not the largest holders that manipulated the price early on.

bitcoin price gain in the early period, when exchanges first started, was 100% the early exchanges simply lying about the bitcoin price every day on their books (so not whale manipulation like today), this gave the intial price breakthroughs $1 + etc right up to even gox doing it through the $200 mark.
this has been confessed to by early exchanges owners, and proven in gox books etc.

yes as you say you need more then whales for current price manipulation, obviously you need both the manipulator and the manipulatees.

[kelsey]

when printed in black and white this outlook is really sad
and it is looking more and more like this to me
so much for an alternative to the FIAT system which we are all still tied to
nope it seems just as corrupt

could not agree more.

although tis not like its anything new in bitcoin, i left the scene originally around when btc was $5 and by what was going on, i'd come to the same conclusion way back then  

[iamnotback]

This has just turned into a pissing contest. Nobody is open for some compromise and everyone wants their side to win with whatever they are fighting.

Bitcoin was designed this way on purpose in order to protect the immutability of its laws (aka protocol).

John Nash designed Bitcoin with a game theory of a non-cooperating game, meaning that there can be no changes because the participants are inherently non-cooperating.

For me, this is almost the "true spirit" of Bitcoin- no one agrees with another, and this agreement is not required...

However, if this goes on, bitcoin will really become an electronic asset/store of value, and no longer a efficient payment channel.

I dont agree with you, because we need to make an agreement or reach a consensus to improve bitcoin.

Learn game theory please before you think you are thinking. You are not thinking.

and an immutable system doesn't need nor want development, and is designed to resist any breach of immutability.  

Except when there exists overwhelming consensus to enact changes, that is.

I am actually going to agree with you 100%. One such example would be quantum resistant protocol changes. That would focus minds.

Overwhelming consensus only exists on those things which benefit everyone pretty much equally, which was precisely the point that @dinofelis and I made about the game theory of PoW being crab bucket mentality.

And that is why you'll never see any consensus on block size or SegWit, other than to defend the status quo which is the Schelling point of the whales (i.e. pull everyone back into the crab bucket so nobody gets an "unfair" advantage).

Schelling point. Learn it.

Meh... even if it could be true, they can only play that game for so long before undermining the fundamentals so its pointless...therefore improbable.

The fundamentals are that Bitcoin's value is due to being able to trust that its laws never change. This is why whales store their reserves in BTC.

It is not pointless. And just because you are a BU shill, the reality will not change to accommodate your pathetic activity of being a pawn that Jihan Wu is using and will throw in the garbage when he is done using you.

[iamnotback]

People (like me) who might be thinking that Bitcoin is a platform that can really transform the whole world and can really be a big push for human development can be in for a big disappointment. It is just like any other nice technology or development introduced by man and can also be corrupted along the way because Bitcoin or cryptocurrency has no power to change human nature. We are still bringing the kind of greed and selfishness we have and this is quite true with the raging debate in the Bitcoin right now. While we seem to criticize the world order as it is now and how Bitcoin can change the system, people in the Bitcoin community are sadly manifesting the same sickness and the same traits we want to avoid. This can be getting so ironic but not surprising to me.

The fundamental solution to eliminate greed and power vacuums requires a shift away from fungible money to knowledge trading in Inverse Commons.

I have a plan.

Well if you are so tired of all of it I think you need to take a break and take a moment of silent or stop thinking about it, I think you are pretty stress out of the over and over topic and the nonsense that have been driven all people to be crazy with something about bitcoin well I will not make a rant because all of us are only human that need some rest with this kind of issues.

I mean I am tired of the greed and power vacuums, not that I am tired of only this specific instance them. Those negative attributes of fungible money are very noisy and waste so much of humanity's resources.

[iamnotback]

No way it's set up so that you can 'activate' ASICboost with a software update. Why would you allocate wafer space to equipment that isn't functional?

Recognize conspiracy type thinking and ignore it.

Incorrect.

My understanding is that ASICboost can use the exact same hardware as a normal SHA256 ASIC, except the hardware is preconfigured internally so it is possible to bypass certain expander portions of the circuit, and the extra computations for organizing the redundancy are not very computationally expensive and so can be done by an external CPU.

[iamnotback]

What did you guys expect? Seriously?


It's very rare, almost non-existent that we get to see battles in the free market. And when we do, we see how ugly things get. We are witnessing a true, free market battle in Crypto-currency space right now. That's a beautiful thing!

Normally, in politics we vote and a majority imposes their will on a minority. The loser must it accept it as morally virtuous and take it up the ass. This one-size-fits-all solution called Government is imposed on a population of 350 Million and nobody finds that outrageous because they're all Socialist, flag waving, sheep.

Sure, politics gets violently ugly and usually comes to a head with mass genocide, but people quickly forget and who cares because the only possibility is Democracy, right?

We don't get to see the "alt-coins" in government because government is by definition a monopoly (lack of free choice).

When we don't get to see the market place of ideas in action, we don't even know how ugly it can be. Let me clarify: Debating and name calling can be ugly and nasty, but it sure beats a mass genocide under an authoritarian regime!

So we're all sick and tired of the squabbling, fighting, whatever. I'll admit that I am too, but we really need to change our perspective.

Things will work themselves out (provided government doesn't step in a fuck this up completely!). Miners, whales, etc. will be punished if they push their limits too far. They can get away with a certain amount because BTC is the only rock solid, store of value crypto at the moment. Don't worry, it can be dethroned, we just haven't seen things get to that point yet.

The market will work this out and who are you or I to say who's corrupt, greedy etc. or claim "the outlook is sad". Stop investing emotionally and diversify yourself so that you aren't overly attached to any one currency, including BTC!

If Bitcoin loses because of greed and corruption then that's absolutely fantastic! If you view it any other way, then I'd say you're probably holding too much BTC at the moment.

If only governments could lose because of greed and corruption... just imagine!

The free market "fails"¹ where there are winner-take-all power vacuums in the structure of the organizational paradigm.

I have showed mathematically that Bitcoin and fungible money are winner-take-all power vacuums.

So we are not displacing/eliminating government. We are simply replacing the power vacuum of democracy (because voting is not cost free) with the power vacuum of fungible finance. Actually these two have always been intimately interlinked, i.e. the banksters own the government.

Bitcoin ultimately changes nothing EXCEPT that it enables unregulated experimentation in altcoins. Which appears to be Nash's brilliance, as I had been stating since 2014 that Satoshi had outsmarted the elite.

¹ Actually it destroys the paradigm (often with much collateral damage to participants) in a creative destruction to keep experimentation of dynamic, resilient fitness moving forward to find a better fit paradigm.

[iamnotback]

@dinofelis, sorry to bury your excellent posts, but I think this deserves a response...

After thinking about this more...

Certainly, after the "powers that be" see the biggest alts gaining ground on Bitcoin (as far as utility, transactions, and market cap), which they already are, eventually both sides will come to the bargaining table and compromise, no? It may be a while though until they "see the light" so to speak. It looks like "alt coin mania" will continue for now until they do.

No because:

1. Some of them will be profiting on the rise of these other altcoins. Please understand that John Nash designed the game theory of Bitcoin such that consensus is impossible.

2. Because Bitcoin will always be the reserve currency of unregulated speculation, so Bitcoin doesn't give a fuck about payments and other features:

I wrote something in private that I wanted to share, so I decided to stick it here.

To win against Bitcoin, an altcoin must have something other (and more significant) than just speculation. Bitcoin will always parasite on all speculation in the overall blockchain speculation ecosystem even its marketcap is less than 50% of the ecosystem (as long as it is the largest).

Evidence:

as a trader i like the mess and the drama  

[Invincible]

Ok, ok , now im tired of this shit, just stop lifting it 

[Carlton Banks]

Call me cynical, suspicious, paranoid, whatever. But it seems increasing likely to me that the Hegelian dialectic will be invoked: a major crisis will be provoked somehow, sometime. And someone will step forward, perhaps even Satoshi himself will emerge from the shadows to do it, and propose a drastic or radical change to "save" us all

And it will all have been one big trick, and the joke will be on those that blindly follow through fear.

lol... the comment about satoshi emerging made me laugh... I don't care even if jesus himself shows up No-one in bitcoin community/devs/miners/hardware makers/exchanges/users or anyone will be able reach consensus because they all have different agenda which are contradictory to each other.


 

That was me, not The One.


And you're wrong. Or at least I believe you could be.

Satoshi turning up now would not make enough difference, I agree with that, there's no panic now (not among Bitcoin supportres, at least ). But in a serious crisis, Satoshi reappearing and telling everyone "do this" would be very powerful, especially if some kind of time limit was involved.

And it might not even be the real Satoshi, all one needs to impersonate Satoshi is access to a Satoshi email account, Satoshi's old PGP key and maybe his forum account here on Bitcointalk. Someone began to use Hal Finney's account recently in exactly the same way.


If Satoshi returns to "show us the way" when the clock is ticking in or on the way to a major crisis, it might not even be him. Do not underestimate the lengths that the money powers will go to to keep control of the money power. Trust yourself, trust your logic. You are the one you have been searching for.

[iamnotback]

Call me cynical, suspicious, paranoid, whatever. But it seems increasing likely to me that the Hegelian dialectic will be invoked: a major crisis will be provoked somehow, sometime. And someone will step forward, perhaps even Satoshi himself will emerge from the shadows to do it, and propose a drastic or radical change to "save" us all

And it will all have been one big trick, and the joke will be on those that blindly follow through fear.

lol... the comment about satoshi emerging made me laugh... I don't care even if jesus himself shows up No-one in bitcoin community/devs/miners/hardware makers/exchanges/users or anyone will be able reach consensus because they all have different agenda which are contradictory to each other.


 

You are correct. Because the vested interests that the competing parties have forbid them from making consensus, even if Satoshi was God, they can't listen to him due to economics.

[crypticj]

Yep too much money on line for people. Agreed +1

[Mr.Charlie]

For me, this is almost the "true spirit" of Bitcoin- no one agrees with another, and this agreement is not required...

However, if this goes on, bitcoin will really become an electronic asset/store of value, and no longer a efficient payment channel.

ive always looked at bitcoin that way. before bitcoin, i was a physical gold/silver holder. i also dove deep into how money became money and how it led to centralized controlled fiat currency.

mike maloney is a very smart man and educator on this issue.

[Mr.Charlie]

Call me cynical, suspicious, paranoid, whatever. But it seems increasing likely to me that the Hegelian dialectic will be invoked: a major crisis will be provoked somehow, sometime. And someone will step forward, perhaps even Satoshi himself will emerge from the shadows to do it, and propose a drastic or radical change to "save" us all

And it will all have been one big trick, and the joke will be on those that blindly follow through fear.

lol... the comment about satoshi emerging made me laugh... I don't care even if jesus himself shows up No-one in bitcoin community/devs/miners/hardware makers/exchanges/users or anyone will be able reach consensus because they all have different agenda which are contradictory to each other.


 

You are correct. Because the vested interests that the competing parties have forbid them from making consensus, even if Satoshi was God, they can't listen to him due to economics.

very true statements!

[The One]

Call me cynical, suspicious, paranoid, whatever. But it seems increasing likely to me that the Hegelian dialectic will be invoked: a major crisis will be provoked somehow, sometime. And someone will step forward, perhaps even Satoshi himself will emerge from the shadows to do it, and propose a drastic or radical change to "save" us all

And it will all have been one big trick, and the joke will be on those that blindly follow through fear.

lol... the comment about satoshi emerging made me laugh... I don't care even if jesus himself shows up No-one in bitcoin community/devs/miners/hardware makers/exchanges/users or anyone will be able reach consensus because they all have different agenda which are contradictory to each other.


 

That was me, not The One.

Generous of you to point it out.

[YuginKadoya]

Well if you are so tired of all of it I think you need to take a break and take a moment of silent or stop thinking about it, I think you are pretty stress out of the over and over topic and the nonsense that have been driven all people to be crazy with something about bitcoin well I will not make a rant because all of us are only human that need some rest with this kind of issues.

It is very difficult to talk about rest, when it was not very long. Constant stress and time spent on the Internet with bitcoin trade, always get tired both physically and morally. Of course, just say that everything is tired, but when you can not do it without it, you will continue always and constantly.

Well he's really stress out your mind and body needs some relaxation just for a bit I think it can not harm even a 2 hours nap will do, because even stress can be very fatal to our body and I know that bitcoin trading is so stressful when something like your money was wasted when the value drop or you got a wrong trade and you had lost all your money with it, you can really feel stress by seeing that, and if you can not stop in doing bitcoin I think you are addicted with it!