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Author Topic: The Barry Silbert segwit2x agreement with >80% miner support.  (Read 119967 times)
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May 23, 2017, 11:58:36 PM
 #181

The only way to truly make it decentralized is to defund the Core dev team.

Lol, the flat-earther-like Conspiracy theories about blockstream core are now, like flat-eartherism, to the point where I can give you all the facts in the world and you'll still just ignore them and plug your ears because you want to believe that Roger is right about blockstream and that your worldview model is not being challenged.

If you had one shred of decency, you'd investigate the following, easily proven or disproven points for yourself:

1. Blockstream isn't even the company with the most bitcoin devs. 100% of Chaincode's devs are Bitcoin core devs: http://chaincode.com/#team

2. The 'corporate money' that blockstream accepted, AXA, is just a French investment bank, not goldman sachs. There was no contract stating that AXA could direct blockstream's efforts or leadership in any way, much less any of their partners.

3. Adam Back is one of the most well-documented cypherpunks on anyone's record. Before he wrote Hash Cash, which brought proof of work to where it is today, he worked on the systems that underlie TOR and Bittorrent. Now he's full time on bitcoin. Why in the hell would anyone assume that someone who spent decades working on the most important decentralized, cypherpunk projects ever be trying to harm the latest one by centralizing it? That's compelling evidence alone, if not proof, that Roger's off his rocker for all those baseless accusations he makes of Back on twitter.

4. At Blockstream, every developer is HIGHLY incentivized to make bitcoin's price go up. At hiring $10,000 worth of bitcoin is purchased (part of their hiring contract) and set aside for them, and they can't touch it for the first year. After year one, each paycheck is paid in it for four years, equally distributed over that time. This is well documented. If developers there saw plans to harm bitcoin, then they'd likely fight those plans to keep their paycheck valuable.

5. The most 'valuable target' in bitcoin core for any infiltrating source would naturally be the Commit keys, which allow the Wladamir-led team of core code cleaners (referred to as Janitors within the dev community) the final say on what becomes bitcoin and what doesn't. Commit access is a right on Github to add a change to the git repository. Anyone with a Github account can write changes and propose them to the bitcoin core code, but only those with commit keys can actual add those proposed changes to the repo.

Today there are 4 bitcoin developers who work at Blockstream. Sipa is one, and although he has a commit key, due to the scaling debate he doesnt use his for scaling changes. Gmax used to have the 5th key, but gave it back because of the scaling debate. He doesn't even have the access he used to anymore.

If blockstream was trying to take over Bitcoin or lead it's governance in any way, they've not only failed, they've hobbled themselves so badly at it that it's now impossible.

Stop believing LIARS. Blockstream is one of the good guys.

Core is the only team that can make the upgrade safe.

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May 24, 2017, 12:09:03 AM
 #182

Hmm. I don't like what OP has brought forth, though perhaps it could also be a good thing. The capability debate is far from new and has been going on almost since its inception. The continued bickering, with all it's bright and less bright ideas, has led nowhere thus far in terms of scaling. The network itself is capable, yet almost 7 years later, reaching consensus seems not.
I don't like that. But perhaps it's due time someone stood up to break this impasse, and see where it will lead from there. After all, the Bitcoin is still a project...


Curious...


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May 24, 2017, 01:06:23 AM
 #183

The only way to truly make it decentralized is to defund the Core dev team.
Lol, the flat-earther-like Conspiracy theories about blockstream core...Blockstream...blockstream...blockstream's efforts...Blockstream...Blockstream...Blockstream....
I'm 100% certain that only 1 of the 2 of us is all on about Blockstream.  Roll Eyes

...Core is the only team that can make the upgrade safe.
I'm 100% certain that hyperbole and delusions don't bolster anyone's case.  Undecided

If you have to ask "why?", you wouldn`t understand my answer.
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May 24, 2017, 01:22:01 AM
 #184

The only way to truly make it decentralized is to defund the Core dev team.

Lol, the flat-earther-like Conspiracy theories about blockstream core are now, like flat-eartherism, to the point where I can give you all the facts in the world and you'll still just ignore them and plug your ears because you want to believe that Roger is right about blockstream and that your worldview model is not being challenged.

If you had one shred of decency, you'd investigate the following, easily proven or disproven points for yourself:

1. Blockstream isn't even the company with the most bitcoin devs. 100% of Chaincode's devs are Bitcoin core devs: http://chaincode.com/#team

2. The 'corporate money' that blockstream accepted, AXA, is just a French investment bank, not goldman sachs. There was no contract stating that AXA could direct blockstream's efforts or leadership in any way, much less any of their partners.

3. Adam Back is one of the most well-documented cypherpunks on anyone's record. Before he wrote Hash Cash, which brought proof of work to where it is today, he worked on the systems that underlie TOR and Bittorrent. Now he's full time on bitcoin. Why in the hell would anyone assume that someone who spent decades working on the most important decentralized, cypherpunk projects ever be trying to harm the latest one by centralizing it? That's compelling evidence alone, if not proof, that Roger's off his rocker for all those baseless accusations he makes of Back on twitter.

4. At Blockstream, every developer is HIGHLY incentivized to make bitcoin's price go up. At hiring $10,000 worth of bitcoin is purchased (part of their hiring contract) and set aside for them, and they can't touch it for the first year. After year one, each paycheck is paid in it for four years, equally distributed over that time. This is well documented. If developers there saw plans to harm bitcoin, then they'd likely fight those plans to keep their paycheck valuable.

5. The most 'valuable target' in bitcoin core for any infiltrating source would naturally be the Commit keys, which allow the Wladamir-led team of core code cleaners (referred to as Janitors within the dev community) the final say on what becomes bitcoin and what doesn't. Commit access is a right on Github to add a change to the git repository. Anyone with a Github account can write changes and propose them to the bitcoin core code, but only those with commit keys can actual add those proposed changes to the repo.

Today there are 4 bitcoin developers who work at Blockstream. Sipa is one, and although he has a commit key, due to the scaling debate he doesnt use his for scaling changes. Gmax used to have the 5th key, but gave it back because of the scaling debate. He doesn't even have the access he used to anymore.

If blockstream was trying to take over Bitcoin or lead it's governance in any way, they've not only failed, they've hobbled themselves so badly at it that it's now impossible.

Stop believing LIARS. Blockstream is one of the good guys.

Core is the only team that can make the upgrade safe.

Adam Back is the biggest mook in the history of crypto.  He was the first person Satoshi emailed and he didn't mine or buy any coins until the price was $1000. True story.


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May 24, 2017, 01:28:15 AM
 #185

its all whistles in the wind and drama until we actually see some code to review that actually says it does 'what it say on the tin'

anyone can have a meeting. but meetings are meaningless.
code rules.. simple

Looks like code is coming soon.

Parties seem to be slowly converging closer towards possible consensus.

Luke Jr is working on this - https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-May/014399.html

Let us hope that everyone moulds it into the least shit option on the table.

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May 24, 2017, 01:28:26 AM
 #186


 for now 2MB will do the trick for the expand faction without wiping out miner fees significantly and get us there, only this route leads to a fork.
(We can call this period the excess profit period where on top of block rewards high txt fees exist and with 300,000 Transactions in the mempool that is not going to change for a while yet and is the opportunity of a lifetime if we do fork all new chains will retain the Bitcoins owned today.)



I never understood this argument, say price is related to adoption, and if the blocks become 2x larger, your going to attract >2 x people wanting to send at 1/2 the price.


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May 24, 2017, 01:55:28 AM
Last edit: May 24, 2017, 08:59:28 AM by freedomno1
 #187


 for now 2MB will do the trick for the expand faction without wiping out miner fees significantly and get us there, only this route leads to a fork.
(We can call this period the excess profit period where on top of block rewards high txt fees exist and with 300,000 Transactions in the mempool that is not going to change for a while yet and is the opportunity of a lifetime if we do fork all new chains will retain the Bitcoins owned today.)



I never understood this argument, say price is related to adoption, and if the blocks become 2x larger, your going to attract >2 x people wanting to send at 1/2 the price.



It clears the Mempool backlog, this reduces the total cost of transactions for an individual to send Bitcoin on the blockchain, reducing the friction and barriers to Bitcoin usage high sending costs reduce demand hence organic growth is stigmatized.
2MB temporarily means more users will use Bitcoin again as their primary means of sending value and boost organic adoption.

The high fees we pay in a 1MB block result in less users transacting on the blockchain in the long run and moving to altcoins as the main means of payment.

Paying lower fees but similar amounts in aggregate by increasing the blocksize to 2MB is a stopgap solution to allow people to participate in daily transactions at a reasonable cost.
If 100 people pay $1 to transact and 200 people would be willing to pay 0.50 if the capacity is raised we would see some users who were not interested in transacting at higher fees using it again, plus new users would be more willing to transact, you can imagine that as a simple widget curve an increase in capacity 2MB and a lower price to transact can move demand to a new price equilibrium.

The key point is that 2MB does not change the block reward and will eventually see the same issues reappear at 2MB which makes it a stopgap solution. It's main virtue is to not reward miners egregious sums to confirm a transaction between two users and provide time.

2MB does not reduce usage in the short term as it's primary goal is to keep costs low enough for new users to transact and participate in the Bitcoin economy promoting organic growth for services like Xapo and on-chain games like luckyb.it.

If the usage is limited in day to day purchases because of high fees there is a leakage to another means of transaction such as altcoins, as users are tempted by the lower transaction costs and sacrifice utility,  over time though this increases the value of altcoins and the rising price attracts more services boosting the utility of them all due to Bitcoin issues. Therefore we see some adoption leak to altcoins over time as people move and transact on their preferred second choice coins.

So we either treat 1MB as choking and putting a limiting throttle on Bitcoin growth in the future, or we can transition Bitcoin to an Asset Class and keep the 1MB block turning Bitcoin into the de facto pricing mechanism by which all Altcoins are priced.
The second more popular route at this point is increasing the number of transactions and capacity of the network or I guess to go back to the oldest proposals Blockchain compression and related ideas.


(That brings us back full circle to we can resolve this with Segwit, BU, Hard Fork, spending more time hunting the low lying fruit's all over again etc. as long as consensus is achieved in the end but until then the original is the status quo)

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May 24, 2017, 02:16:43 AM
 #188

Actually maximum transaction size and maximum block size ARE connected. There are currently no limits on transaction size which means one transaction can be the size of the whole block. To actually restrict it to 1MB requires a fork that makes it part of the consensus rules.[...]
 I don't have an opinion either way since I don't know how realistic the long term requirement for a >1MB transaction is. Perhaps it could be the collective transactions for one massive company for a day or something, not sure...

Interesting, thanks. Would there be a way to restrict only legacy (P2PKH/P2SH) transactions? In this case, we could leave the way open for Segwit-style transactions with more than 1 MB.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/breaking-bitcoin-miners-reach-scaling-agreement/

According to this the timeframe is now 6 months and is a scheduled parallel hard fork with both segwit and 2MB as predicted.

The way the agreement is presented:

Quote
We agree to immediately support the following parallel upgrades to the bitcoin protocol, which will be deployed simultaneously and based on the original Segwit2Mb proposal:

    Activate Segregated Witness at an 80% threshold, signaling at bit 4
    Activate a 2 MB hard fork within six months

what I interpret is:

- the upgrade to the code is done in parallel (both Segwit fork and 2MB HF coded into the same version and with the "timeline" activating at the same block)
- Segwit is activated when 80% of the mined blocks signal it (that could be inmediately)
- while the 2MB hardfork is activated after 6 months.

So in my opinion the most likely outcome is that Segwit is activated nearly inmediately (2-6 weeks) and the 2MB hard fork 6 months after the block where the protocol change occurs.

 

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May 24, 2017, 02:25:12 AM
 #189

Actually maximum transaction size and maximum block size ARE connected. There are currently no limits on transaction size which means one transaction can be the size of the whole block. To actually restrict it to 1MB requires a fork that makes it part of the consensus rules.[...]
 I don't have an opinion either way since I don't know how realistic the long term requirement for a >1MB transaction is. Perhaps it could be the collective transactions for one massive company for a day or something, not sure...

Interesting, thanks. Would there be a way to restrict only legacy (P2PKH/P2SH) transactions? In this case, we could leave the way open for Segwit-style transactions with more than 1 MB.
Anything can be set into rules with a consensus change and fork of some kind. The issue with restrictive changes - as we've seen with 1MB blocks - is that in the future it becomes far harder to undo them again if they proved to be a bad choice and real world use cases change.

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May 24, 2017, 02:31:06 AM
 #190

I want to have UASF asap, i'm done with that anoying little brat called Jihan WU.
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May 24, 2017, 03:04:25 AM
 #191

Core developers were NOT invited.

According to this they were.



But I've no idea who or what to believe any more.
Looks like a last minute invitation to the final meeting? My understanding was this was in the works for weeks.

Typical PR manipulation. Honest people would show the date of the conservation. Without the date it is meaningless.

..C..
.....................
........What is C?.........
..............
...........ICO            Dec 1st – Dec 30th............
       ............Open            Dec 1st- Dec 30th............
...................ANN thread      Bounty....................

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May 24, 2017, 03:55:29 AM
 #192

...devs should get paid somehow for their hard work if they are not paid then they can be easily bought...
Their being paid is what "buys them" and gives them incentive to actively work against any other group. By the nature of being human, Core devs are financial incentivized to use whatever means "necessary" to perpetuate the myth that Core is the "official" dev team. The only way to truly make it decentralized is to defund the Core dev team.

Another thing. Any devs would have Bitcoins already and that incentivised devs to improve the codes in order to improve the value of BTC - that's their reward. Each dev can always ask for donations if they say that the improved codes is done by oneself.

..C..
.....................
........What is C?.........
..............
...........ICO            Dec 1st – Dec 30th............
       ............Open            Dec 1st- Dec 30th............
...................ANN thread      Bounty....................

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May 24, 2017, 04:00:43 AM
 #193

Matt is correct, his going wouldn't have helped anything.

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May 24, 2017, 04:09:47 AM
 #194

Holy shit, they actually figure out what they're going to do. That's nuts!
I'm interested to see the results from the concept testing as we get closer to the forking date.
...devs should get paid somehow for their hard work if they are not paid then they can be easily bought...
Their being paid is what "buys them" and gives them incentive to actively work against any other group. By the nature of being human, Core devs are financial incentivized to use whatever means "necessary" to perpetuate the myth that Core is the "official" dev team. The only way to truly make it decentralized is to defund the Core dev team.

Another thing. Any devs would have Bitcoins already and that incentivised devs to improve the codes in order to improve the value of BTC - that's their reward. Each dev can always ask for donations if they say that the improved codes is done by oneself.
Wouldn't a lot of it just come down to maintaining the power that devs have in the community and the miners would "benefit" the devs so that there are no real changes to whatever structure makes them the most money? I could be wrong but that's been the kind of vibe I've gotten from what I've heard.
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May 24, 2017, 04:14:18 AM
Last edit: May 24, 2017, 04:44:16 AM by The One
 #195

The only way to truly make it decentralized is to defund the Core dev team.

Lol, the flat-earther-like Conspiracy theories about blockstream core are now, like flat-eartherism, to the point where I can give you all the facts in the world and you'll still just ignore them and plug your ears because you want to believe that Roger is right about blockstream and that your worldview model is not being challenged.

If you had one shred of decency, you'd investigate the following, easily proven or disproven points for yourself:

1. Blockstream isn't even the company with the most bitcoin devs. 100% of Chaincode's devs are Bitcoin core devs: http://chaincode.com/#team

2. The 'corporate money' that blockstream accepted, AXA, is just a French investment bank, not goldman sachs. There was no contract stating that AXA could direct blockstream's efforts or leadership in any way, much less any of their partners.

3. Adam Back is one of the most well-documented cypherpunks on anyone's record. Before he wrote Hash Cash, which brought proof of work to where it is today, he worked on the systems that underlie TOR and Bittorrent. Now he's full time on bitcoin. Why in the hell would anyone assume that someone who spent decades working on the most important decentralized, cypherpunk projects ever be trying to harm the latest one by centralizing it? That's compelling evidence alone, if not proof, that Roger's off his rocker for all those baseless accusations he makes of Back on twitter.

4. At Blockstream, every developer is HIGHLY incentivized to make bitcoin's price go up. At hiring $10,000 worth of bitcoin is purchased (part of their hiring contract) and set aside for them, and they can't touch it for the first year. After year one, each paycheck is paid in it for four years, equally distributed over that time. This is well documented. If developers there saw plans to harm bitcoin, then they'd likely fight those plans to keep their paycheck valuable.

5. The most 'valuable target' in bitcoin core for any infiltrating source would naturally be the Commit keys, which allow the Wladamir-led team of core code cleaners (referred to as Janitors within the dev community) the final say on what becomes bitcoin and what doesn't. Commit access is a right on Github to add a change to the git repository. Anyone with a Github account can write changes and propose them to the bitcoin core code, but only those with commit keys can actual add those proposed changes to the repo.

Today there are 4 bitcoin developers who work at Blockstream. Sipa is one, and although he has a commit key, due to the scaling debate he doesnt use his for scaling changes. Gmax used to have the 5th key, but gave it back because of the scaling debate. He doesn't even have the access he used to anymore.

If blockstream was trying to take over Bitcoin or lead it's governance in any way, they've not only failed, they've hobbled themselves so badly at it that it's now impossible.

Stop believing LIARS. Blockstream is one of the good guys.

Core is the only team that can make the upgrade safe.

Irrelevant. There should be no funding by corporations to prevent centralisation. Corporations do not invest for 0% ROI and not get their capital back.

Unfortunately history will show that humans do change. The words "traitor", " turncoat", etc, springs to mind. I am not saying Back is one of them. Just pointing out that humans do change.

Therein lies the problem. Humans with the best intention are somewhat fraught and their behaviour is now aligned to the rewards you mentioned. It does create certain distortion and can possibly explain why Core doesn't listen to anyone else except themselves. The rewards would also give the false pretence that Bitcoin belongs to them. The psychology aspects can not be rationalised over the internet.

Arrogant assumptions that no one else can code better.

I personally detest any companies being involve in the Bitcoin roadmap and having any powers at all. The only "roadmap" i care for is Satoshi's whitepaper. Peer to peer electronic cash.

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May 24, 2017, 04:18:57 AM
 #196

These modifications don't seem like difficult to do in 4 months, right ?
Making the modifications is not enough.  You need to upgrade every bitcoin node in the world as well.
Not really.  If you keep your old node running, you copy the the old fork, if sufficient miners go with the old fork to still make some blocks.  If you download the new node, you copy the new fork.  
And lose bitcoin.  How well do you think that will be welcomed by the greater community, and how much would you trust a currency whish did that?

You never lose bitcoins because you run a non-mining node.  The only things that matter is what is recorded on the block chain(s).  Whether your local copy gets fucked up or not doesn't matter.  The only thing you can have as an accident, is that your old software makes a funny transaction that is nevertheless accepted in some way by the miners and put in a chain, but is in a way screwed up that you cannot use its outputs any more.

But by running an old node, you never "lose bitcoins".  And if bitcoin forks in two chains, you have your former coins on both of them.  Maybe you don't SEE them, because you're not using an appropriate node, or an appropriate wallet, but they are there.  If my secret keys are safe, even if I wipe my hard disk and erase my full node, I didn't lose my coins.  (and the keys are in my *wallet*, not my *full node*: hell, at home I have an empty full node, and my bitcoins are in a light wallet on another computer which connects to my full node, so whatever I do to my full node doesn't affect my coins).

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If it was simple to change the hard economic consensus parameters, like block size, inflation rate, time between blocks, POW algorithm etc, it would have happened several times already.  It doesn't, because people want bitcoin to be a secure store of value.

It doesn't, simply because of the mechanism of immutability, which, however, can break down if centralization occurs and there's a collusion of more than 50% of the consensus (= hash) power over a change.

But at least I'm happy that you consider block size just as well a hard economic parameter as inflation rate.   I think that the block size limit as an economic parameter, introducing scarcity of transaction room, was a stupid thing to do in bitcoin's design, but so is its inflation rate.  So, bitcoin being designed as a system with a scarce and finite number of coins, I don't see the problem with bitcoin as a system with a finite and scarce number of transactions per unit of time.  I have to say I think the economic model of both is stupid if the idea was to make a currency, but then, that's how bitcoin was designed, and I think that is the way it should live its life.  The economic design looks more like the one for "exclusive famous paintings" which are rare to come by, and difficult to transact, in other words, a kind of highly speculative and not  very liquid asset with high price that is rarely moved, and only to move big amounts of value (not a currency at all, but a "settlement layer for rich guys doing things where fiat cannot go").  

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But in all of this, you don't even need to run a node.  You can just connect your light wallet to one of the miner pool nodes.
Yeah, or just use PayPal if you want to trust a thrid party.  Actually I think PayPal is more trustworthy than the miners.  That's why I chose to run my own nodes.

The point is, you can ask for the books of PayPal, or you can ask for the books of the miners.   That's what you do when you use a full node.  But you cannot change them, and there's only one book out there.  If you think that PayPal has been cheating in the books, you could go to a judge.  If you see that the miners have been cheating, I don't think you can go to a judge.  You can just curse them, and that's it.   If the one book that is out there is not to your likings, what are you going to do about it, apart from shouting, cursing, trying to tell everyone not to use bitcoin because it is a scam ....
Suppose you hold, I don't know, 10 000 BTC, and you see that the miners are cheating.  Suppose that you see suddenly that they are giving themselves a 200 BTC block reward.  Your node stops.  There's no other chain around.  Are you really going to shout that bitcoin is a big scam and that the miners are screwing everyone ?  If you run an exchange, are you going to stop all transactions of your customers ?  Or are you silently going to modify your node software to be able to transact *your own 10 000 coins* and, maybe, sell them before the shit hits the fan ?


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This won't be a problem, since old nodes don't generate segwit addresses.  You can pay him with your segwit coins, and it is secure.

Ah, I didn't know you could go back from a segwit address back to a legacy address.  How can the old node check that transaction, given that he doesn't have the witness data ?
Suppose that I had coins on a legacy address A1.  I transfer them to my new segwit address S1.  Now, Joe, running an old node, has address A2.  Can I transact coins from S1 to A2 ?
But, suppose now that I had coins in S1, and I pay Jack, running a new node, in S2.
I could try to spend S1 to A2, because Joe, with his old node cannot see my transaction from S1 to S2.
But of course, the *miners* will not accept my transaction from S1 to A2, because that would be a double spend.  In other words, Joe, with his old node, cannot see that I'm doing a double spend, and would cheerfully accept a chain with a spending from S1 to A1 (if this is even possible ?), but he TRUSTS THE MINERS that they won't allow that.

What's the point for him to run his old full node, and not a light wallet connected to a miner node ?

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You may argue that segwit is a cleaner way of doing things, but there is no need to hard fork for it.  In fact it will be very stupid to hard fork for a simple change like that.  P2SH was a much more intrusive change, and it was done by a simple flag day activation.

The point is that if you do a radical change in the protocol, you fork anyhow.  There' s no good reason to keep backward compatibility with software that doesn't understand the new protocol but simply "allows it".  The coin after is not the same coin as the coin before.  The protocol is different.  The only thing that is the same, is the ownership of coins.  


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And a clean hard fork would also allow people to "not be tied to backward compatibility".  Many crypto currencies have such a policy.   There's a lot of clumsiness in the requirement of a soft fork that disappears with a hard fork.  For a radical modification like this one, a hard fork is much cleaner.
Use one of the scamcoins, if you want an insecure coin which hardforks all the time.  Don't think you will be able to convince all bitcoin users that would be a good idea, and then you have two coins, disruption and big losses for everyone.

This is what I call religion.  If you talk about "insecure" and "scam coin", that's not rational. Hell, I'm even sure that you can change the inflation rate in bitcoin with a soft fork too.  If you would allow every first transaction from legacy to segwit address to be spent not once, but twice, you'd double in one go, all bitcoin wallets that switch to segwit.  With a segwit soft fork because it is a new protocol that is "invisible" to the old one, so a soft fork.

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The whole "leading argument" in this whole business is the irrational belief that non-mining full nodes have any decentralization value, and that old nodes with old node software are important.   Both of these notions are entirely wrong, but they are the fundamental argument on which all of this dispute is based.
Don't try to tell me this is wrong.  I run an exchange.  A small one, about 1 million USD in monthly volume now (times two, if you count buy and sell separately).  Quite often when people sell coins to me, it first takes them ages to sync their old Bitcoin QT node.  There are thousands of old nodes out there, and people who run them.

You could also just run a full node for your customers, and tell them to connect a light wallet to your node.  Or to any other node.  Ultimately, to the source of all that data, which is a mining pool node.  Because all that node does, is copy what the miners produced.   If there's only one block chain out there, and the block headers link together and the last one is "up to date", then cryptographically you know that you have the headers of the sole chain out there.  
A light wallet does all the checking that is needed for the transaction at hand, on the single chain that is in any case out there.
I would consider it "safer" to use an up-to-date light wallet, than a legacy full node.  And in any case, there's only one "book" out there, whether you like it or not.

A (light) wallet is like a web browser, and a full node is like a proxy server.  The original data server is the backbone of miner pool nodes, that make the unique block chain, to take or to leave.
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May 24, 2017, 04:53:58 AM
 #197

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  If you would allow every first transaction from legacy to segwit address to be spent not once, but twice, you'd double in one go, all bitcoin wallets that switch to segwit.  With a segwit soft fork because it is a new protocol that is "invisible" to the old one, so a soft fork.

That is not how soft forks work...even anyone-can-spend outputs can't be double spent! The UTXO set is not a multi-set.

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May 24, 2017, 05:22:26 AM
 #198

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  If you would allow every first transaction from legacy to segwit address to be spent not once, but twice, you'd double in one go, all bitcoin wallets that switch to segwit.  With a segwit soft fork because it is a new protocol that is "invisible" to the old one, so a soft fork.

That is not how soft forks work...even anyone-can-spend outputs can't be double spent! The UTXO set is not a multi-set.

I thought (but I'm still learning) that the txin were in the witness data, which is entirely new, and could hence obey any new rules.  Maybe I'm wrong there.
Can you see in the legacy block chain, without witness data, that a segwit output has been spent ?  Because only the legacy block chain has the no-double-spend rule backed into it as of now.  What you do with the witness data is "new stuff" and could, as far as I understand, very well include a rule of "no triple spend" but allow "double spend" (it would be crazy, of course, but I think technically possible).
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May 24, 2017, 05:28:47 AM
 #199

But at least I'm happy that you consider block size just as well a hard economic parameter as inflation rate.   I think that the block size limit as an economic parameter, introducing scarcity of transaction room, was a stupid thing to do in bitcoin's design, but so is its inflation rate.  So, bitcoin being designed as a system with a scarce and finite number of coins, I don't see the problem with bitcoin as a system with a finite and scarce number of transactions per unit of time.  I have to say I think the economic model of both is stupid if the idea was to make a currency, but then, that's how bitcoin was designed, and I think that is the way it should live its life.  The economic design looks more like the one for "exclusive famous paintings" which are rare to come by, and difficult to transact, in other words, a kind of highly speculative and not  very liquid asset with high price that is rarely moved, and only to move big amounts of value (not a currency at all, but a "settlement layer for rich guys doing things where fiat cannot go").  


This is a typical error that people make. First of all, a block have nothing to do with economics. It is an accountancy thing. Double book-keeping with 2 columns; Expenditure and Income. In Bitcoin it is; Input and Output. The original blocksize was 32mb and the 1mb was temporary anti-spam measure. A company does not limited its sales according to the double book-keeping size. Sales are limited by the goods/services they have on offer - economic. The original limit of 32mb was a good one and allows adoptions to grow naturally over a decade or more before reaching the limit. Thus there is plenty of time to solve the capacity/scaling issue before the limit is reached.

The stubbornness and refusal to raise the limit created a side effect of bad business policy - scarcity in the accounts and not goods/services. Thus the economic scarcity arguments comes after the principles of accountancy.

Thus a block is an accountancy thing and when that is limited it becomes an economic thing. The stupid thing is not raising the limit. It wasn't the original design.

I do wish people on here studied accountancy like myself, then people would have a better understanding of Bitcoin.

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May 24, 2017, 06:25:34 AM
 #200

1) A few companies, i.e. people in suits don't define Bitcoin.
2) The people who are stating that there should not be a block size limit at all are uneducated idiots.
3) "Consensus reached" articles are written by even bigger idiots.
4) The agreement has already failed:



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