My girlfriends house in Germany

[bitcoin_bob]

@bitcoin_bob does your girlfriend live in germany?  How will you handle the deal? She has to come over at least one time

She has a power of attorney with her lawyer who deals with everything in Germany on her behalf.

Picture of my Girlfriend? No problem, I will start a new auction, does she have to show her tits to escrow so they can verify she has tits before you send money or does she show tits and trust you will make payment if satisfied

[Rampion]

@bitcoin_bob does your girlfriend live in germany?  How will you handle the deal? She has to come over at least one time

She has a power of attorney with her lawyer who deals with everything in Germany on her behalf.

Picture of my Girlfriend? No problem, I will start a new auction, does she have to show her tits to escrow so they can verify she has tits before you send money or does she show tits and trust you will make payment if satisfied

Now we are speaking, man!

No escrow for that - but she shows first

[candoo]

@bitcoin_bob does your girlfriend live in germany?  How will you handle the deal? She has to come over at least one time

She has a power of attorney with her lawyer who deals with everything in Germany on her behalf.

Picture of my Girlfriend? No problem, I will start a new auction, does she have to show her tits to escrow so they can verify she has tits before you send money or does she show tits and trust you will make payment if satisfied

Well could you PM me her phone number? I would like to call her and ask about the house(yeah im very intrested). I speak german nativ.

[Malawi]

@bitcoin_bob does your girlfriend live in germany?  How will you handle the deal? She has to come over at least one time

She has a power of attorney with her lawyer who deals with everything in Germany on her behalf.

Picture of my Girlfriend? No problem, I will start a new auction, does she have to show her tits to escrow so they can verify she has tits before you send money or does she show tits and trust you will make payment if satisfied

We need to see tit first 

[bitcoin_bob]

@bitcoin_bob does your girlfriend live in germany?  How will you handle the deal? She has to come over at least one time

She has a power of attorney with her lawyer who deals with everything in Germany on her behalf.

Picture of my Girlfriend? No problem, I will start a new auction, does she have to show her tits to escrow so they can verify she has tits before you send money or does she show tits and trust you will make payment if satisfied

Now we are speaking, man!

No escrow for that - but she shows first

Maybe somewhere in this house is a picture of her naked......now you really want to bid?

[bitcoin_bob]

@bitcoin_bob does your girlfriend live in germany?  How will you handle the deal? She has to come over at least one time

She has a power of attorney with her lawyer who deals with everything in Germany on her behalf.

Picture of my Girlfriend? No problem, I will start a new auction, does she have to show her tits to escrow so they can verify she has tits before you send money or does she show tits and trust you will make payment if satisfied

Well could you PM me her phone number? I would like to call her and ask about the house(yeah im very intrested). I speak german nativ.

PM sent.

[arnoldrimmer]

It looks like a Fachwerkhaus that makes it old eneough to but it unter Denkmalschutz http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denkmalschutz by Law and thats a Bitch when it comes to renovating.

[bitcoin_bob]

It looks like a Fachwerkhaus that makes it old eneough to but it unter Denkmalschutz http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denkmalschutz by Law and thats a Bitch when it comes to renovating.

But I already said specifically this is NOT Denk as this has been checked and verified. Why do people not read before commenting......

[h4r13q1n]

As you say no one has reasonably said how a third party person holding funds would be able to make this deal work. I don't quite know what you are saying about the buyer denies receiving funds and I could be scammed can you elaborate?

corrected myself here:

So, the contract is signed, funds are sent afterwards vs. contract signed, no funds sent. Will the blockchain be sufficient as evidence that no payment was made?

Actually OP, I come to think that YOU would be the beneficent of an escrow service.

1) Auction ends
2) funds are transferred to escrow
3) deal is made perfect
4) funds are forwarded to you.
5) ?
6) Profit

An escrow service would actually be useful for you in case your customer wouldn't pay and you'd have a hard time proving legally that no payment was made.

I'd not discard it from the beginning.

Also again, don't get pissed so easily. On this forums, everyone is a scammer until proven otherwise. It lies in the nature of a non-reversible transaction system and is not an insult to you personally so you really shouldn't take it personally.

[bitcoin_bob]

As you say no one has reasonably said how a third party person holding funds would be able to make this deal work. I don't quite know what you are saying about the buyer denies receiving funds and I could be scammed can you elaborate?

corrected myself here:

So, the contract is signed, funds are sent afterwards vs. contract signed, no funds sent. Will the blockchain be sufficient as evidence that no payment was made?

Actually OP, I come to think that YOU would be the beneficent of an escrow service.

1) Auction ends
2) funds are transferred to escrow
3) deal is made perfect
4) funds are forwarded to you.
5) ?
6) Profit

An escrow service would actually be useful for you in case your customer wouldn't pay and you'd have a hard time proving legally that no payment was made.

I'd not discard it from the beginning.

Also again, don't get pissed so easily. On this forums, everyone is a scammer until proven otherwise. It lies in the nature of a non-reversible transaction system and is not an insult to you personally so you really shouldn't take it personally.

But the customer does not get a payment certificate from me until they make payment. I suppose the only use for escrow would be that they pay the escrow holder the money and a notarised certificate stamped 'all funds paid' is posted to Mr. Escrow. Then when he has said document monies are released and the document sent to the buyer.

However if Bitcoin crashed during this time my GF would be left with nothing and the other person a free house. So it would have to be done at speed- the document would need to be basically prepped and sent within days which would be possible.

I understand that playing the currency game is risky and admit a bit of adrenalin comes into play when risking on the Buy/Sell, but it would be very annoying if hands were tied and unable to access the funds whilst say, watching BTC on a downwards slide and seeing $1000s lost every day with funds sat in escrow, simply because of a trust issue that is covered in any case with lawyers. Why should we have to loose because someone else does not trust in lawyers.....unless they are happy to therefore fix the price in Euros on day of sale with bitcoin an agreed medium. Otherwise Might as well ebay the house. Has to be SOME give and take.

I get that its plain to see there is a 'everyone on the forums is a scammer' mentality here, which is a shame for peoples health and stress levels really. Hey, end of the day, there are lawyers who deal with properties so apart from as I said, sending the BTC and sale proof document to someone and then having them post it out- but agreeing to cover any BTC loss in the wasted days those BTC could have been in my account- I can't see any use in the escrow system in this particular transaction.

Maybe after I have sold this house and it goes through I will have some trust shown and should start the worlds first Bitcoin only estate agency here. Until then I really don't take it personally, just take it personally that I have to repeat myself continuously without having fresh argument presented. 

[nelisky]

Just adding to the 'thread hijacking' a little bit, it is normal for buyers to request/require escrow, as that provides a huge safety net to any deal.

It is not, however, normal to refuse escrow (not saying you did, not saying you didn't). The only two reasons I can think of for someone refusing escrow are:
- You don't trust anyone, which is fair but then why are you trying to have people trust you? (*)
- You are trying to pull up a scam. A scammer will never admit to want to scam, and they always have great theories on why escrow isn't needed.

(*) - I know there are other mechanisms to secure the deal, as you described. That is all fine except the moment bitcoins are transfered there is nothing that can bring them back, not a court order, not the police, not the best lawyer in the world. If you succeed in making things look legit, receive the coins and then disappear... well... you know. On the other hand, if you are legit and the buyer doesn't pay, you have a physical good that you can prove is still yours, you can have the police arrest the scamming buyer. Hell, you can go there personally and kick the shit out of the guy that tricked you, so you see that while it seems that dealing with bitcoins is the same as any other currency it really isn't.


Now, as another potentially interested party I have to ask again, as I didn't see an answer and I'm following this thread eagerly: Will you accept dealing with a bitcoin escrow? I know you said you didn't say you wouldn't, but what I'm asking is if I can bid knowing you will accept a mutually trusted party to hold the coins until the deal is concluded?

As for your 'what if btc price plummets', are you going to use a payment processor or are you going to take BTC? It is the same thing for the buyer, but does present an added risk, so as someone (goat?) proposed earlier, would you accept the escrow to hold the funds already converted to your currency of choice instead?

[Peter Lambert]

However if Bitcoin crashed during this time my GF would be left with nothing and the other person a free house. So it would have to be done at speed- the document would need to be basically prepped and sent within days which would be possible.

You are having an auction in bitcoin, if bitcoins crash to 1$ today, would you still honor the auction and sell the house to the highest bidder (curretly 35 btc)?

[bitcoin_bob]

Just adding to the 'thread hijacking' a little bit, it is normal for buyers to request/require escrow, as that provides a huge safety net to any deal.

It is not, however, normal to refuse escrow (not saying you did, not saying you didn't). The only two reasons I can think of for someone refusing escrow are:
- You don't trust anyone, which is fair but then why are you trying to have people trust you? (*)
- You are trying to pull up a scam. A scammer will never admit to want to scam, and they always have great theories on why escrow isn't needed.

(*) - I know there are other mechanisms to secure the deal, as you described. That is all fine except the moment bitcoins are transfered there is nothing that can bring them back, not a court order, not the police, not the best lawyer in the world. If you succeed in making things look legit, receive the coins and then disappear... well... you know. On the other hand, if you are legit and the buyer doesn't pay, you have a physical good that you can prove is still yours, you can have the police arrest the scamming buyer. Hell, you can go there personally and kick the shit out of the guy that tricked you, so you see that while it seems that dealing with bitcoins is the same as any other currency it really isn't.


Now, as another potentially interested party I have to ask again, as I didn't see an answer and I'm following this thread eagerly: Will you accept dealing with a bitcoin escrow? I know you said you didn't say you wouldn't, but what I'm asking is if I can bid knowing you will accept a mutually trusted party to hold the coins until the deal is concluded?

As for your 'what if btc price plummets', are you going to use a payment processor or are you going to take BTC? It is the same thing for the buyer, but does present an added risk, so as someone (goat?) proposed earlier, would you accept the escrow to hold the funds already converted to your currency of choice instead?

OK....I'm starting to form an idea of what is being asked a bit better now. Thank you for trying to elaborate on the whole escrow thing, which is, all I have really asked multiple times.

See, you are the first person to have even mentioned that there is such a thing as escrow which holds BTC in currency. Now if that were the case, I do not see why not. Can you answer me some questions though-

1. What guarantee do I have that the payment processor does not Collapse during the deal? Are they FSA or financially regulated institutions?
2. What is the guarantee that 'John' or whoever isn't just building up a nice reputation as an escrow holder and is then going to one day bail off to the Caribbean? Is said escrow person registered, have some kind of standing such as a judge or attorney? Are they insured against bankruptcy? Are they licenced to get involved in a real estate transaction, or is there possible penalties for them if this all went wrong and they were found to be practicing conveyance without a licence? Who would be at fault?
3. Would it be unusual to ask the buyer to sign a 'buyers risk' clause that states until money hits my account that the property would not be given clear title? So using escrow will the buyer be happy to understand that if John/the exchange fails and they loose their money that they would still have to find a way to pay for the property?
4. Buyer would STILL have to transfer real funds to the lawyer to do the property transfer, regardless of escrow. No lawyer is going to start without getting paid, and I am not going to pay the lawyer the privilege of putting a name into someone elses without knowing for sure that money is one day forthcomming on it. Dont forget once act I is passed the money becomes legally payable, so even if the escrow flops, technically that property might already be 'Act I' in the buyers name so they would need to pay up no matter what or face court action from me, the lawyer and the tax office.

See in my eyes if I have the BTC in my account and they have a certificate of payment its one of those things, if BTC collapses and the funds are in our control thats our problem. I don't want sour grapes from the other side if it all goes wrong whilst the money is not in our control. Not in my control, not my problem.

I said already I am considering and warming to the idea of escrow, but it has to be in a way that we don't get screwed either, or in a way that costs us. Otherwise the benefits of selling here for BTC instead of just ebay, cash sale to the lawyer, are fading fast.

[h4r13q1n]

But the customer does not get a payment certificate from me until they make payment.

So thats why people worry. they make a payment and do not get this certificate.
Still one should assume that if lawyers and notaries are involved this all is saver than 99% of other btc purchases.

I'd recommend you start another auction when you have some free hours to answer the inevitable questions and spend some thoughts on how to layout and formulate your offer to minimize them (details how the transaction works, offer to give details per PM etc) - considering the experiences you made with this thread which I'd consider as a test run, for it is no longer a valid auction thread imho.

So OP, please don't give up selling this house for bitcoin. its an awesome idea and it should happen.

[bitcoin_bob]

However if Bitcoin crashed during this time my GF would be left with nothing and the other person a free house. So it would have to be done at speed- the document would need to be basically prepped and sent within days which would be possible.

You are having an auction in bitcoin, if bitcoins crash to 1$ today, would you still honor the auction and sell the house to the highest bidder (curretly 35 btc)?

in the spirit of auctions yes, if a property were sold in dollars and it crashed or yen or pounds, then its just the way life goes.

However to be perfectly honest I am hedging my bets on the short term prospects of bitcoin and want to play the markets with them. Not the long term. And I want to be in control of the money, not have to just eat the fact that the money was pissed around with in some escrow or unreasonable delays made by the buyer, dragging this onto months or even have a buyer deliberately play the game to his advantage for the market. Otherwise the buyer could play this game forever until the market favours he release the money at its lowest point.

As I was just told there was a method of 'holding' BTC in currency, this has intrigued me and I am interested to know more.

I don't think my thoughts are unreasonable. BFL are getting pre-orders (and payments with far less accusations of scamming, noless)  for devices and do you really think they hedge their money in Bitcoin, and would send you a device costing thousands for $20? No, they have control of their funds, and probably turn them to $$$ as soon as you pay them.

I just want the choice to choose my own fate on the bitcoin ride and not have to sit back and watch it rise or crash round me with my funds basically sat in a straightjacket. Hope that makes sense.

[bitcoin_bob]

But the customer does not get a payment certificate from me until they make payment.

So thats why people worry. they make a payment and do not get this certificate.
Still one should assume that if lawyers and notaries are involved this all is saver than 99% of other btc purchases.

I'd recommend you start another auction when you have some free hours to answer the inevitable questions and spend some thoughts on how to layout and formulate your offer to minimize them (details how the transaction works, offer to give details per PM etc) - considering the experiences you made with this thread which I'd consider as a test run, for it is no longer a valid auction thread imho.

So OP, please don't give up selling this house for bitcoin. its an awesome idea and it should happen.

Your idea is very good, I already asked the MODS to look in and maybe send this somewhere else so I can start again. But had no reply......

[VeeMiner]

so what's the current bid?

[h4r13q1n]

but had no reply......

Give them some time. I'm sure they'll understand. I just hope the highest bidder atm is okay with that, he can always bit in the new thread.

off topic: where in germany do they sell beer for bitcoin?

[Akka]

off topic: where in germany do they sell beer for bitcoin?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/video/2013/apr/26/bitcoin-currency-moves-offline-berlin-video

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=124092.0

[nelisky]

OK....I'm starting to form an idea of what is being asked a bit better now. Thank you for trying to elaborate on the whole escrow thing, which is, all I have really asked multiple times.

See, you are the first person to have even mentioned that there is such a thing as escrow which holds BTC in currency. Now if that were the case, I do not see why not. Can you answer me some questions though-

(removed for brevity)

See, that's where things get hard to do. You are doing an auction in BTC, an irreversible, pseudo-anonymous crypto-currency that is not officially accepted anywhere state sponsored and are trying to get the whole protection and guarantees of government debt-money. The two are not interchangeable, you have either/or.

If you want to be sure you have a guaranteed exchange rate and that you don't have to do your own research on who is trustworthy and you don't want to take responsibility over your actions if you make the wrong decision, then you should only work with fiat.

The reason people here are so jumpy about scammers is because the buyer is the one holding most of the risk up to the very end. Sure, bitcoins can plummet, but are you willing to give back the difference if bitcoins rise in value while under escrow?

Yes, John might run away with your 25k EUR BTC equivalent, but I can bet you he has right now and at any point in time much, much more than that being held for others. That is why we trust him, and sure he can disappear, but so can you. He has a great track record, you we don't (yet) know.

As for all other questions about payment processors you'll have to do your own investigation (which goes full circle on this response). If I were to tell you "sure, don't worry, fully insured and such" would you just believe me? I'm not sure at all what the answer is, btw, I don't trust insured companies anyway, as we all know what happens when it is time for insurance to pay up...

But hang in there! We are certainly progressing and even if you end up not selling your house for BTC, this will help any upcoming seller.