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Author Topic: The YACoin Superfun Premine Thread  (Read 8725 times)
WindMaster
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May 09, 2013, 11:18:12 PM
 #81

You might be thinking of the GPU mining code -- no one knows if Artforz was able to get a GPU miner for Litecoin running after he realized that the TMTO issue with scrypt allowed for faster mining by GPU.  It's still a possibility; Artforz mined privately with his GPU miner when he implemented it for the Bitcoin chain, then only gave out the source code later.

I recall an issue related to the chosen parameters (1024, 1, 1). This set of parameters leads to degeneracy of the algo (in mathematical sense), making it's easier to create GPU mining soft.

Indeed, at the time someone immediately called out ArtForz about the choice of scrypt(1024,1,1) in pretty much the very next forum post.  I believe the wording was something along the lines of "are you joking?" and "don't you know anything about OpenCL?" when ArtForz suggested it would be GPU resistant.
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May 09, 2013, 11:21:10 PM
 #82

You might be thinking of the GPU mining code -- no one knows if Artforz was able to get a GPU miner for Litecoin running after he realized that the TMTO issue with scrypt allowed for faster mining by GPU.  It's still a possibility; Artforz mined privately with his GPU miner when he implemented it for the Bitcoin chain, then only gave out the source code later.

I recall an issue related to the chosen parameters (1024, 1, 1). This set of parameters leads to degeneracy of the algo (in mathematical sense), making it's easier to create GPU mining soft.

Indeed, at the time someone immediately called out ArtForz about the choice of scrypt(1024,1,1) in pretty much the very next forum post.  I believe the wording was something along the lines of "are you joking?" and "don't you know anything about OpenCL?" when ArtForz suggested it would be GPU resistant.

Artforz logic was that the L2 CPU cache would be fast enough that it could compete with a GPU implementation.  I spoke with him myself around the time of the release of Tenebrix; the numbers he gave me for his naive GPU implementation were in line with those when running reaper with lookup_gap = 1 (which offers at most a 200% advantage).

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
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May 09, 2013, 11:22:41 PM
 #83

You might be thinking of the GPU mining code -- no one knows if Artforz was able to get a GPU miner for Litecoin running after he realized that the TMTO issue with scrypt allowed for faster mining by GPU.  It's still a possibility; Artforz mined privately with his GPU miner when he implemented it for the Bitcoin chain, then only gave out the source code later.

I recall an issue related to the chosen parameters (1024, 1, 1). This set of parameters leads to degeneracy of the algo (in mathematical sense), making it's easier to create GPU mining soft.

That wasn't the problem (although the author of this coin is trying to use that to sell you on it).

Regardless of the value of N, the GPU will likely be faster until you hit some value in the hundreds of megabytes that requires all of the 8-16 GB of RAM available on a modern computer.  The reason for this is because you can adjust the amount of memory usage in exchange for number of ALU cycles (this is exactly what the "lookup_gap" variable does in reaper/cgminer).  But at a value of N large enough to prohibit faster GPU mining, a single hash is measured in seconds to minutes.  This makes it impossible to use for a blockchain hash and was detailed in the memcoin thread I created a long time ago.  YACoin is actually more or less exactly what I specified in the original memcoin thread.  This is one of the reasons that the YACoin chain makes no sense itself, because it eventually intends to use values of N in the gigabyte range.


I meant scrypt(1024, 1, 1) should be set to something like scrypt(1024, 128, 1)*. Setting the second parameter to "1" means that IT'S NOT GPU RESISTANT. Artforz fucked a lot of guys with his set of parameters.


* scrypt(CPU cost, memory cost, parallelization cost)
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May 09, 2013, 11:23:43 PM
 #84

This is one of the reasons that the YACoin chain makes no sense itself, because it eventually intends to use values of N in the gigabyte range.

Won't people be mainly mining PoS by the time Scrypt PoW uses more memory than a cheap home computer can hold? At worst it's just a kill switch for PoW to try to make it economically unfeasible to use specialized hardware.

𝖄𝖆𝖈: YF3feU4PNLHrjwa1zV63BcCdWVk5z6DAh5 · 𝕭𝖙𝖈: 12F78M4oaNmyGE5C25ZixarG2Nk6UBEqme
Ɏ: "the altcoin for the everyman, where the sweat on one's brow can be used to cool one's overheating CPU" -- theprofileth
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May 09, 2013, 11:24:36 PM
 #85

You might be thinking of the GPU mining code -- no one knows if Artforz was able to get a GPU miner for Litecoin running after he realized that the TMTO issue with scrypt allowed for faster mining by GPU.  It's still a possibility; Artforz mined privately with his GPU miner when he implemented it for the Bitcoin chain, then only gave out the source code later.

I recall an issue related to the chosen parameters (1024, 1, 1). This set of parameters leads to degeneracy of the algo (in mathematical sense), making it's easier to create GPU mining soft.

That wasn't the problem (although the author of this coin is trying to use that to sell you on it).

Regardless of the value of N, the GPU will likely be faster until you hit some value in the hundreds of megabytes that requires all of the 8-16 GB of RAM available on a modern computer.  The reason for this is because you can adjust the amount of memory usage in exchange for number of ALU cycles (this is exactly what the "lookup_gap" variable does in reaper/cgminer).  But at a value of N large enough to prohibit faster GPU mining, a single hash is measured in seconds to minutes.  This makes it impossible to use for a blockchain hash and was detailed in the memcoin thread I created a long time ago.  YACoin is actually more or less exactly what I specified in the original memcoin thread.  This is one of the reasons that the YACoin chain makes no sense itself, because it eventually intends to use values of N in the gigabyte range.


I meant scrypt(1024, 1, 1) should be set to something like scrypt(1024, 128, 1)*. Setting the second parameter to "1" means that IT'S NOT GPU RESISTANT. Artforz fucked a lot of guys with his set of parameters.


* scrypt(CPU cost, memory cost, parallelization cost)

Sad part being that he knew this VERY well as it was pointed out early in development. Then again, why fix something that you can profit off?
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May 09, 2013, 11:25:40 PM
 #86

I meant scrypt(1024, 1, 1) should be set to something like scrypt(1024, 128, 1)*. Setting the second parameter to "1" means that IT'S NOT GPU RESISTANT. Artforz fucked a lot of guys with his set of parameters.


* scrypt(CPU cost, memory cost, parallelization cost)

N isn't CPU cost, it's CPU and memory cost.  And even at that, there's little different between using N or r to increase memory usage past a certain point because you become very quickly memory bandwidth limited.  You're welcome to test it out with scrypt-jane if you want to, though.  You'll see that when memory consumption is equivalent with either N or R being used to increase it the time to get a hash is about the same past 128 KB or so of memory usage.

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
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May 09, 2013, 11:26:52 PM
 #87

Yet the Windows build gave me 60 KH/s while my Ubuntu build gave me 400 KH/s with my 2700K -- totally different story.

Anyway, who wants to buy some YAC?

400 KH/s?
I'm getting merely 200-400kH/s on my Intel hexacore. That said I cannot use the AVX optimisation as it runs inside Virtualbox. However, I don't see how this is a totally different story -- we have the same with ASICs for Bitcoin, GPUs that arrived for Litecoin etc.

YAC might not be more "pure" than other coins. But at least it is a new concept and not a simple clone such as FTC and CNC. I have my doubts whether it is the right concept. But only time will tell.

I also find it hypocritical to ask for a "fair" coin. What is fair? Fair, so that everybody can profit? Fair, so that "I" can profit enough and in particular more than the other guy that I'm envious of? Fair, so I can dump it onto buyers and cash out?

Is anybody even remotely thinking about the original motivation of a coin? To make digital payments easy and secure. Mining surely was more of a necessary evil (consuming Megawatts and 100k$/day) than a wanted aspect of the network. I could think of a strategy that should limit the required mining power.


BTC 1NoV8NFSB7eiuK2aABFtBTdUdXhbEdG7Ss
LTC LaFyWSfzKY7CKwwmbxhyf8S2iJvfT7JFtL YAC YKKwR5B64Z9ww971J42vEGVPaema623Tz6
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May 09, 2013, 11:27:17 PM
 #88

This is one of the reasons that the YACoin chain makes no sense itself, because it eventually intends to use values of N in the gigabyte range.

Won't people be mainly mining PoS by the time Scrypt PoW uses more memory than a cheap home computer can hold? At worst it's just a kill switch for PoW to try to make it economically unfeasible to use specialized hardware.

No, because suddenly you have blocks that are worth 100 coins because the difficulty is so low and no one can mine quickly.  The difficulty algorithm in the code increases block reward with decreasing difficulty.

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
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May 09, 2013, 11:29:54 PM
 #89

Yet the Windows build gave me 60 KH/s while my Ubuntu build gave me 400 KH/s with my 2700K -- totally different story.

Anyway, who wants to buy some YAC?

400 KH/s?
I'm getting merely 200-400kH/s on my Intel hexacore. That said I cannot use the AVX optimisation as it runs inside Virtualbox. However, I don't see how this is a totally different story -- we have the same with ASICs for Bitcoin, GPUs that arrived for Litecoin etc.

YAC might not be more "pure" than other coins. But at least it is a new concept and not a simple clone such as FTC and CNC. I have my doubts whether it is the right concept. But only time will tell.

I also find it hypocritical to ask for a "fair" coin. What is fair? Fair, so that everybody can profit? Fair, so that "I" can profit enough and in particular more than the other guy that I'm envious of? Fair, so I can dump it onto buyers and cash out?

Is anybody even remotely thinking about the original motivation of a coin? To make digital payments easy and secure. Mining surely was more of a necessary evil (consuming Megawatts and 100k$/day) than a wanted aspect of the network. I could think of a strategy that should limit the required mining power.

Unfair is when I make lots more than everyone else for no greater effort -- which is what I've done repeatedly.  Like I said, I got a bunch of YACs.  But I figure people not into the crypto p'n'd' scene will fail to see the value of something that has ponzi-scheme like distributions in the first week that it's out.

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
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May 09, 2013, 11:32:04 PM
 #90

and the fact there were no clear instructions on how to CPU mine. The instructions were made more clear later on. I didn't realize you just had to run the wallet with a few switches to start mining. Also all those pictures posted a couple of days ago of people eating popcorn was a signal some people were raking in the coins.

 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

Copy-Paste from yacoin-qt:
Code:
Options:
  -?                     This help message
  -conf=<file>           Specify configuration file (default: yacoin.conf)
  -pid=<file>            Specify pid file (default: yacoind.pid)
  -gen                   Generate coins
  -gen=0                 Don't generate coins
  -datadir=<dir>         Specify data directory
  -dbcache=<n>           Set database cache size in megabytes (default: 25)
  -dblogsize=<n>         Set database disk log size in megabytes (default: 100)
  -timeout=<n>           Specify connection timeout in milliseconds (default: 5000)
  -proxy=<ip:port>       Connect through socks proxy
  -socks=<n>             Select the version of socks proxy to use (4-5, default: 5)
  -tor=<ip:port>         Use proxy to reach tor hidden services (default: same as -proxy)
  -dns                   Allow DNS lookups for -addnode, -seednode and -connect
  -port=<port>           Listen for connections on <port> (default: 7688 or testnet: 17688)
  -maxconnections=<n>    Maintain at most <n> connections to peers (default: 125)
  -addnode=<ip>          Add a node to connect to and attempt to keep the connection open
  -connect=<ip>          Connect only to the specified node(s)
  -seednode=<ip>         Connect to a node to retrieve peer addresses, and disconnect
  -externalip=<ip>       Specify your own public address
  -onlynet=<net>         Only connect to nodes in network <net> (IPv4, IPv6 or Tor)
  -discover              Discover own IP address (default: 1 when listening and no -externalip)
  -irc                   Find peers using internet relay chat (default: 1)
  -listen                Accept connections from outside (default: 1 if no -proxy or -connect)
  -bind=<addr>           Bind to given address. Use [host]:port notation for IPv6
  -dnsseed               Find peers using DNS lookup (default: 0)
  -banscore=<n>          Threshold for disconnecting misbehaving peers (default: 100)
  -bantime=<n>           Number of seconds to keep misbehaving peers from reconnecting (default: 86400)
  -maxreceivebuffer=<n>  Maximum per-connection receive buffer, <n>*1000 bytes (default: 5000)
  -maxsendbuffer=<n>     Maximum per-connection send buffer, <n>*1000 bytes (default: 1000)
  -upnp                  Use UPnP to map the listening port (default: 1 when listening)
  -detachdb              Detach block and address databases. Increases shutdown time (default: 0)
  -paytxfee=<amt>        Fee per KB to add to transactions you send
  -server                Accept command line and JSON-RPC commands
  -testnet               Use the test network
  -debug                 Output extra debugging information. Implies all other -debug* options
  -debugnet              Output extra network debugging information
  -logtimestamps         Prepend debug output with timestamp
  -shrinkdebugfile       Shrink debug.log file on client startup (default: 1 when no -debug)
  -printtoconsole        Send trace/debug info to console instead of debug.log file
  -rpcuser=<user>        Username for JSON-RPC connections
  -rpcpassword=<pw>      Password for JSON-RPC connections
  -rpcport=<port>        Listen for JSON-RPC connections on <port> (default: 8344 or testnet: 18344)
  -rpcallowip=<ip>       Allow JSON-RPC connections from specified IP address
  -rpcconnect=<ip>       Send commands to node running on <ip> (default: 127.0.0.1)
  -blocknotify=<cmd>     Execute command when the best block changes (%s in cmd is replaced by block hash)
  -upgradewallet         Upgrade wallet to latest format
  -keypool=<n>           Set key pool size to <n> (default: 100)
  -rescan                Rescan the block chain for missing wallet transactions
  -salvagewallet         Attempt to recover private keys from a corrupt wallet.dat
  -checkblocks=<n>       How many blocks to check at startup (default: 2500, 0 = all)
  -checklevel=<n>        How thorough the block verification is (0-6, default: 1)
  -loadblock=<file>      Imports blocks from external blk000?.dat file

Block creation options:
  -blockminsize=<n>      Set minimum block size in bytes (default: 0)
  -blockmaxsize=<n>      Set maximum block size in bytes (default: 250000)
  -blockprioritysize=<n> Set maximum size of high-priority/low-fee transactions in bytes (default: 27000)

SSL options: (see the Bitcoin Wiki for SSL setup instructions)
  -rpcssl                                  Use OpenSSL (https) for JSON-RPC connections
  -rpcsslcertificatechainfile=<file.cert>  Server certificate file (default: server.cert)
  -rpcsslprivatekeyfile=<file.pem>         Server private key (default: server.pem)
  -rpcsslciphers=<ciphers>                 Acceptable ciphers (default: TLSv1+HIGH:!SSLv2:!aNULL:!eNULL:!AH:!3DES:@STRENGTH)

UI options:
  -lang=<lang>           Set language, for example "de_DE" (default: system locale)
  -min                   Start minimized
  -splash                Show splash screen on startup (default: 1)


Copy-past from the first postin official YAC thread:
Code:
Finally command lines looks like:
Windows: yacoin-qt -gen -genproclimit=1
Linux: yacoin-qt -gen -genproclimit=1

No clear instructions? Can you read?  Are you 6 years old?

And yes, there are some gifs with people eating popcorn. And what? Do you have a problem with that?

Please don't make from you a bigger idiot than you are and STFU...

ps: If your message was a joke,then HAHA,you got me...

pps: Sorry guys, but I spent all day helping people with yac mining, mostly answering 10 times the same question, and I just can't stand the ignorance of some people. Why do you do something you have 0 knowledge about? First - learn (read, use the search button, ...). Then ask. And even at this point, there is 90% chance your question was already answered. If I could do it through without asking, anyone can too...
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May 09, 2013, 11:32:35 PM
 #91

I meant scrypt(1024, 1, 1) should be set to something like scrypt(1024, 128, 1)*. Setting the second parameter to "1" means that IT'S NOT GPU RESISTANT. Artforz fucked a lot of guys with his set of parameters.


* scrypt(CPU cost, memory cost, parallelization cost)

N isn't CPU cost, it's CPU and memory cost.  And even at that, there's little different between using N or r to increase memory usage past a certain point because you become very quickly memory bandwidth limited.  You're welcome to test it out with scrypt-jane if you want to, though.  You'll see that when memory consumption is equivalent with either N or R being used to increase it the time to get a hash is about the same past 128 KB or so of memory usage.

It's arguable.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11126315/what-are-optimal-scrypt-work-factors

EDIT: Btw, the time has proven that Litecoin is NOT GPU resistant. This lets us suspect that my point of view is more correct than urs. Smiley
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May 09, 2013, 11:34:41 PM
 #92

can we, as a community, create a coin that we all AGREE is fair terms?  like right from the get-go, a solution that works for all of us?

thats not going to happen

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May 09, 2013, 11:35:55 PM
 #93

I don't think the Dev has a GPU miner nor do I think he has a server farm, if he did no one else would've won any blocks when the binaries were posted. However if 6000 cores only constitutes 15% of the hash then something is fishy, the alts forum doesn't have 20,000 people reading it. Regardless the coin was doomed from the start, six second block times are fine if you're the Visa network paying for your storage, but at 35mb a day you can't very well tell gramma to send you money but "oh, it'll take you a week to download the block chain".

I already turned mine off. 500 watts an hour isn't worth it for 16 cents worth of coin.
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May 09, 2013, 11:36:07 PM
 #94


Sad part being that he knew this VERY well as it was pointed out early in development. Then again, why fix something that you can profit off?

Hah, I love looking at your uninformed posts. Truly hilarious. Post less, read more.
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May 09, 2013, 11:38:03 PM
 #95

It's arguable.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11126315/what-are-optimal-scrypt-work-factors

EDIT: Btw, the time has proven that Litecoin is NOT GPU resistant. This lets us suspect that my point of view is more correct than urs. Smiley

Time has proven that Artforz wasn't aware of the TMTO tradeoff that he later tried to address with TMTO defeaters that weren't released to public (because he eventually defeated them again himself, at which point he gave up).

There is not a simple, magical solution to this problem and it remains at the forefront of crypto research.

Now you're just arguing on the internet...

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
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May 09, 2013, 11:38:47 PM
 #96

can we, as a community, create a coin that we all AGREE is fair terms?  like right from the get-go, a solution that works for all of us?

thats not going to happen

"Through disagreement, we approach consensus". Yes, a zen-like thing to say, but that in a nutshell is how markets work.

May the best cryptocurrency win. Or all of them can fail.

Who's left holding the bag at the end?

"Trust, but verify."
Bitrated user: jimhsu.
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May 09, 2013, 11:39:04 PM
 #97


Sad part being that he knew this VERY well as it was pointed out early in development. Then again, why fix something that you can profit off?

Hah, I love looking at your uninformed posts. Truly hilarious. Post less, read more.

He is right. U should follow ur own advice.
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May 09, 2013, 11:40:46 PM
 #98

No, he's wrong as tacotime made very clear to you.... 'U' should 'ur'..something? There have been false accusations made against both ArtForz and coblee. Every single accusation is based only on circumstantial 'evidence' that is demonstrably false.

You've made far too many posts to be so uninformed and apparently disinterested in facts.
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May 09, 2013, 11:45:44 PM
 #99

No, he's wrong as tacotime made very clear to you.... 'U' should 'ur'..something?

I don't believe Artforz didn't know about TMTO. It's like having driving license without knowledge what a break for. Anyway, end of the discussion.
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May 09, 2013, 11:46:46 PM
 #100

Is anybody even remotely thinking about the original motivation of a coin? To make digital payments easy and secure. Mining surely was more of a necessary evil (consuming Megawatts and 100k$/day) than a wanted aspect of the network. I could think of a strategy that should limit the required mining power.

This!.. Add cheap transactions to that one as well.. Sick of Visa/Mastercards/Banks eating the few profits I have on my online store.
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