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Author Topic: I'm Kevin, here's my side.  (Read 236535 times)
Phil21
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June 21, 2011, 06:32:43 PM
 #321

Since it's fairly obvious that the 500kBTC sale was from the pooled account holding everyone's money,

I appreciate the attempt at a solution, however the above statement is unfortunately not correct.  It's quite plausible it may be correct, but it's equally plausible the bitcoins didn't even exist in the first place (e.g. attacker adding +500,000 to the "BTCBalance" column or whatever for their account, via SQL injection).

Since it's been pretty much proven the story given by MtGox is incorrect, it's really wild speculation as to the real current situation.  Without all the information, my vote currently is to "sit and wait" until a third party can audit this mess.  I was previously in favor of a rollback, until it became painfully obvious that we were being misled about the situation.

I am of the opinion without truthful information about the situation, it's impossible to make an informed decision.  How many other fake balances exist in the system now, that will be re-activated when the site goes live?  I have about 500 questions like this, that are impossible to even begin to answer without getting some information in the light.

-Phil
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June 21, 2011, 06:34:41 PM
 #322

my vote currently is to "sit and wait" until a third party can audit this mess.  

are you crazy?  if there is one thing i have learned from this it's never trust a 3rd party 'auditor'.  actually wait just make that never trust a 3rd party
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June 21, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
 #323

How about solution #6:
Roll-Back all accounts back to the very beginning!

+ Fixes my mistakes when I bought my coins at $28.
+ Fixes early adopter's mistakes when they sold at below $1.
+ Now everyone have a fresh & equal start.

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Phil21
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June 21, 2011, 06:41:42 PM
 #324

are you crazy?  if there is one thing i have learned from this it's never trust a 3rd party 'auditor'.  actually wait just make that never trust a 3rd party

Do you actually still believe that story?  With all the evidence pointing out otherwise? Wow.

There are *very* competent security teams on this planet.  They don't advertise.  I would feel very comfortable with one of these teams flying in and taking a look ASAP.
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June 21, 2011, 06:46:23 PM
 #325

Some people fail to grasp the concept that the coins were stolen.

Alot of people actually seem to not really grasp that or don't care.  If all of the coins were indeed from EVERYBODIE's accounts, and a rollback is the only way to save most of them... I don't see how it can really be up for debate.

Obviously it's pointless to try using the honor system around here and just ask that people return the stolen coins.

Quote
Receiving stolen property is defined by statute in most states. Generally it consists of four elements: (1) the property must be received; (2) it must have been previously stolen; (3) the person receiving the property must know it was stolen; and (4) the receiver must intend to deprive the owner of his or her property.

A person receives stolen property by acquiring or taking manual possession of it. Physical possession, however, is not always required. Under some statutes, it is sufficient if the accused has exercised control over the property. For example, a statute may declare that paying for the property constitutes control, regardless of whether the accused has handled it.

In many jurisdictions a belief that the property is stolen satisfies the knowledge element.

This is for people in the US... idk about international law.  It's common knowledge that the coins were stolen.  Therefore if you bought them and have them in your wallet, you're in possession of stolen property.
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June 21, 2011, 06:48:24 PM
 #326

It's rational if you realize you're going to be caught anyway. Did he come forward before he thought he'd be tracked down, or after? Seemed like after to me.

He came forward within minutes (lets call it an hour or two so I'm not later called a liar) of this all going down, directly to the owner of MtGox via IRC.  At that time it was attempted to keep things a bit quiet on the public side for obvious reasons.

Chat logs will confirm this, should it ever come to that.

This was also mentioned in the OP.

To play devil's advocate here for a moment, Let's say Kevin did do it. (not that I am, mind.) He could have, after realizing his mistake that he could not withdraw all the funds and that the largest amount of it would still be in his account, Thinking on his feet, went to MT and said, 'Look! I stopped the hacker from getting all the bitcoins!'.

You can all take off your tin hats now. Wink There are inconsistencies in both stories, and I suspect the truth will only out once we get that third party auditor in there.

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June 21, 2011, 07:07:50 PM
 #327

are you crazy?  if there is one thing i have learned from this it's never trust a 3rd party 'auditor'.  actually wait just make that never trust a 3rd party

Do you actually still believe that story?  With all the evidence pointing out otherwise? Wow.

There are *very* competent security teams on this planet.  They don't advertise.  I would feel very comfortable with one of these teams flying in and taking a look ASAP.

nah i really don't know what to believe.  it's a serious point about 3rd parties though. if you are taking part in a marketplace where you only need to trust your transaction partner, things can go wrong for you as an individual but if lots of people put their trust into a single 3rd party and he screws up that can turn into a major catastrophe.

i'm thinking the Open Transaction model i've read about could be a better path to go down.
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June 21, 2011, 07:13:02 PM
 #328

Some people fail to grasp the concept that the coins were stolen.

That's the story from MtGox.  Backed up by what evidence?

If you accept that the coins were stolen, then fine -- a roll-back would seem most appropriate (to me, at least).  But without evidence to back up that story...

As I have said multiple times -- I don't need names, IP addresses, and all such details.  I would be satisfied with proof that 'criminal proceedings' have been initiated, as has been claimed.  Again -- if for no other reason than that filing false reports is felonious pretty much world-wide.



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June 21, 2011, 07:19:09 PM
 #329

Option A) unauthorized access gained to mtgox.  btc belonging to other people sold for 0.01.
rollback needed

Option B) somebody with 500k btc just did it for the lulz. 
no rollback needed

Option C) government intention into the btc community.
no rollback needed

Which other possibilities am I missing?
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June 21, 2011, 07:22:38 PM
 #330

It's rational if you realize you're going to be caught anyway. Did he come forward before he thought he'd be tracked down, or after? Seemed like after to me.

He came forward within minutes (lets call it an hour or two so I'm not later called a liar) of this all going down, directly to the owner of MtGox via IRC.  At that time it was attempted to keep things a bit quiet on the public side for obvious reasons.

Chat logs will confirm this, should it ever come to that.

This was also mentioned in the OP.

To play devil's advocate here for a moment, Let's say Kevin did do it. (not that I am, mind.) He could have, after realizing his mistake that he could not withdraw all the funds and that the largest amount of it would still be in his account, Thinking on his feet, went to MT and said, 'Look! I stopped the hacker from getting all the bitcoins!'.

You can all take off your tin hats now. Wink There are inconsistencies in both stories, and I suspect the truth will only out once we get that third party auditor in there.

Days before this crash, I forwarded to MtGox my photo ID and proof of address, then used the very same account to make this buy. I never attempted to hide who I was from him.

Since I explained this poorly before, I'm stating this again: I was requesting that my Dwolla daily limit be raised, not my bitcoin daily limit. That's why the $1000 BTC limit was still present on my account.
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June 21, 2011, 07:25:25 PM
 #331

Which other possibilities am I missing?

Option D) unauthorized access gained to mtgox.  btc belonging to nobody sold for 0.01.
rollback needed

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June 21, 2011, 07:34:16 PM
 #332

Option B) somebody with 500k btc just did it for the lulz. 
no rollback needed

Which other possibilities am I missing?

Option B) they did it for the lulz, and after the rollback is done, they'll do it again for more lulz. If it happens again, THEN we'll have proof the money is not stolen, and people who bought for $10, $5, or $0.01 will be just able to buy it again. I.e. if it really wasn't theft, why object to the rollback if you'll just be able to do it again?

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June 21, 2011, 07:42:20 PM
 #333

So yes, one account with 500k BTC can fill every buy order on the market at the time,

and still have about 260K left waiting to be sold at 0.01 each.

Heh, so could it be that Kevin actually saved Mt. Gox? If his buy order went in just as the hacker's sell was winding down and he was the first to buy in quantity, Kevin snapped up the balance and the hacker could not transfer out anything because he sold the complete balance (didn't see that coming). Unless Kevin was the hacker or associated with of course.

Still, rollback is the fair thing to do.

This is hilarious and quite possible based on my knowledge of real life....
O wonderous universe.

 
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June 21, 2011, 07:45:20 PM
 #334

Days before this crash, I forwarded to MtGox my photo ID and proof of address, then used the very same account to make this buy. I never attempted to hide who I was from him.

Since I explained this poorly before, I'm stating this again: I was requesting that my Dwolla daily limit be raised, not my bitcoin daily limit. That's why the $1000 BTC limit was still present on my account.

Kevin, I'm about 99.99% convinced you are the unfortunate victim of a con here (Which is what it amounts to when someone sells you something they didn't have to sell) and that you acted in complete good faith. You've been considerably more forthcoming than Tux has, and much calmer in your responses, as well. My faith in MtGox as an institution is severely shaken, and I won't be trusting them with my money until I have verified third party assurance that they're secure. I don't think you hacked the site, Just to be clear, the scenario above was a decidedly devil's advocate one.

That said, I won't be satisfied with either story until a third party goes through the logs and ferrets out the truth (Which I suspect will more closely match your story, but I doubt will exactly match either one). I sympathize with what must be one hell of a roller coaster of a weekend.

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dinker
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June 21, 2011, 07:56:08 PM
 #335

If Kevin is truly the savior of mtgox, then a roll-back should still happen,

But Kevin should be compensated by gox for saving their ass.

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Phil21
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June 21, 2011, 08:17:03 PM
 #336

If Kevin is truly the savior of mtgox, then a roll-back should still happen,

But Kevin should be compensated by gox for saving their ass.

He was Smiley  MtGox blamed him for the hack, and said they forwarded his details on to the FBI (not like I believe that, but that's the official statement at least).  That is fair compensation right?
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June 21, 2011, 08:28:27 PM
 #337

The best compensation would be all these threads dying in a fire, never to pop up from the primordial ooze that spawned them.

fortitudinem multis - catenum regit omnia
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June 22, 2011, 01:56:45 AM
 #338

If you wait a while, the 643BTC you managed to withdraw are gonna be worth those $5million you thought you had in your pocket.

The true wild west solution to this would be: you get to keep that, tough luck for the rest.
However, 250k btc is just too much coin for one man alone to handle. You wouldn't have gotten far with that.


great story!

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June 22, 2011, 12:25:37 PM
 #339

ITT:

Zealots zealoting zealotry.

The term Zealot, in Hebrew kanai (קנאי, frequently used in plural form, קנאים (kana'im)), means one who is zealous on behalf of God.

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June 22, 2011, 07:20:31 PM
 #340

So saying "religious zealot" is redundant?

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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