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Author Topic: TradeFortress is a scammer.  (Read 14212 times)
ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 03:07:13 AM
 #21

Show me the agreement that TradeFortress violated.


For a scammer tag, the accused person needs to have promised to do something and then failed to deliver on the promise. TradeFortress never promised to pay anyone any bitcoins here. If you trust him to do something that he didn't promise, that's your problem.

OK, if 3 topics and lots of people probably scammed aren't enough, i have to follow your argument:

from the first post in TradeFortress topic, everybody can read he encouraged people to withdraw HIS ious at a gateway. But this isn't possible, not every Bitcoin issued by TradeFortress is withdrawable at a gateway.




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May 17, 2013, 03:08:01 AM
 #22

I think we now have fake currency (like false bills) circulating in the ripple system.  Smiley
No we don't. We have a small network of newbs (plus a scammer or three) that have a mostly closed trust network with very little liquidity to someone trustworthy..

IMO, Ripple questions are best asked (and answered) on the Ripple forum and/or StackExchange
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May 17, 2013, 03:08:29 AM
 #23

I don't recognize Ripple IOUs as binding agreements.

1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD
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May 17, 2013, 03:11:35 AM
 #24

For a scammer tag, the accused person needs to have promised to do something and then failed to deliver on the promise. TradeFortress never promised to pay anyone any bitcoins here. If you trust him to do something that he didn't promise, that's your problem.

Just facts: TradeFortress issued IOUs and sent them to users who trusted him. IOU means "I owe you". Thus he admitted that he owes to that people.

Question: If one owes to people who trust him, but is not going to pay them, then who is that person?
Where did I say I will redeem my IOUs? Ripple is also used for shares, you can't redeem them, so I guess dividendrippler is a scam.

I made it clear in the title that you get a *ripple* Bitcoin which you have got.
ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 03:13:18 AM
 #25

I don't recognize Ripple IOUs as binding agreements.

Sorry, we aren't talking of Ripple IOUs as binding agreements, but that he promised to sell something withrawable in a gateway, for bitcoins.

By the Way, if you don't lock that topic, other people will fall there and lose theyr money.


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May 17, 2013, 03:15:27 AM
 #26

Show me where I promised it, read that line again, did I promise they can be redeemed.

Also, you think social experiments last forever?
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May 17, 2013, 03:18:43 AM
 #27

I should also clarify a few things:

I very much supported Ripple during the closed beta.

I stopped stopping Ripple when no source code was released, while they advertise as open source.

I have not profited, or obtained any bit coins using liquidity providers, from the social experiment. Others may have on their initiative.

Nobody has contacted me regarding a loss. If they did, I would cover them out of my pocket after agreeing that ripple is a bad idea, however now I said this people can try to defraud me.
ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 03:20:55 AM
 #28

To expose and bring awareness to the flaws in the Ripple payment system, I am giving away 1 BTC on Ripple.

This is a social experiment. Therefore, posts not consisting of an Ripple address to send 1 BTC to may be deleted.

How it works

1. Register for a bitcointalk.org forum account if you haven't
2. Complete the following steps in your light (not a full node) Ripple client:



So you can copy and paste the address we're sending your bitcoin from, it's rH3bZsvVUhzugvcYuJVoSYCEMHkfK6wHNv

3. Post your address here. I will send at least 1 BTC to your address.

That's it!

I suggest reading RippleScam.org afterwards. Please note that you must exchange your bitcoins with an liquidity provider (Ripple does this automatically, when paths are calculated) in order to withdraw them from a gateway.
ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 03:22:31 AM
 #29

Plus, the topic was self-moderated so the countless lies you said to people who had doubts are lost.
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May 17, 2013, 03:23:12 AM
 #30

Cool, now where did I promise you were able to withdraw them? I listed the steps.
ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 03:28:16 AM
 #31

Guys, a scam is a scam because there is people who believe in it. That's why you posted in the newbye section and the topic was self-moderated.

I agree with you that opencoin should make much more hard to give trust to people, but that's not the point.

If you dislike guns, will you shoot at people to demonstrate that it hurts? You would go to jail.
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May 17, 2013, 03:32:03 AM
 #32

For a scammer tag, the accused person needs to have promised to do something and then failed to deliver on the promise. TradeFortress never promised to pay anyone any bitcoins here. If you trust him to do something that he didn't promise, that's your problem.

Just facts: TradeFortress issued IOUs and sent them to users who trusted him. IOU means "I owe you". Thus he admitted that he owes to that people.

Question: If one owes to people who trust him, but is not going to pay them, then who is that person?
Where did I say I will redeem my IOUs? Ripple is also used for shares, you can't redeem them, so I guess dividendrippler is a scam.

I made it clear in the title that you get a *ripple* Bitcoin which you have got.

I don't accuse anybody, I just raise a question. How would you qualify a person who deliberately asked for trust and issued debt without intention to pay for it?

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May 17, 2013, 03:37:27 AM
 #33

Is that person doing it for personal gain, or to bring awareness to it?
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May 17, 2013, 03:39:06 AM
 #34

Is that person doing it for personal gain, or to bring awareness to it?

His intentions are honorable, but does it matter? (e. g. Robin Hood was a thief with honorable intentions... and in fact he was the criminal)

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May 17, 2013, 03:43:59 AM
 #35

I don't agree TF is a scammer.  A troll, maybe, but with a purpose.

However, I would agree with the warning not to do this with an account that is associated with anything like real money or real BTC, or if you ever intend to use this ridiculous service.  

If it is this trivially easy to game this system, it has serious issues.

Compare to the BTC network.  If the transaction hits the blockchain and gets confirms, I can be absolutely certain there is real money there.  With Ripple, I have 5 BTC of utter bullshit sitting there.  There it is, in my imaginary balance.  I'd never attempt to spend it.  I think it would be fraud if I did.  

However, what is it that this system allows me to be looking at a balance screen telling me I have 5 BTC when in fact they are basically imaginary?  That's honesty?
ervalvola
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May 17, 2013, 03:44:38 AM
 #36

As i said in the other topic, your accusations about Ripples aren't rootless at all, i've read your site and some posts.

People can read and think and you can't force them into doing that by rescuing theyr bitcoins, or stealing; or letting others to steal. You have crossed the line.
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May 17, 2013, 03:46:33 AM
 #37

However, what is it that this system allows me to be looking at a balance screen telling me I have 5 BTC when in fact they are basically imaginary?  That's honesty?

That's exactly the same system you use everytime you log into MtGox to trade your bitcoins  Cool

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May 17, 2013, 03:53:54 AM
 #38

I don't agree TF is a scammer.  A troll, maybe, but with a purpose.

Let me remind you that Matthew N. Wright received a scammer tag on this forum for his trolling that appeared to be a binding contract, lol... And had to settle it somehow with his so called victims, i. e. to pay for it.

Though I totally understand both tolls and sincerely don't wish any of them to have a scammer tag (I can't be sure I won't receive a scammer tag for similar trolling of myself in future, but I'll try to be careful, lol).

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However, what is it that this system allows me to be looking at a balance screen telling me I have 5 BTC when in fact they are basically imaginary?  That's honesty?

Most money we use everyday are imaginary. If you trust IOU issuers, then you trust this balance. If you don't trust that person anymore, you can remove the trust and the balance will probably change? I don't know, I am just learning that system. But the concept is interesting. And in fact we use it everyday when we deal with any kind of bank accounts, online balances, etc.

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May 17, 2013, 03:57:12 AM
 #39

However, what is it that this system allows me to be looking at a balance screen telling me I have 5 BTC when in fact they are basically imaginary?  That's honesty?

That's exactly the same system you use everytime you log into MtGox to trade your bitcoins  Cool


Yep, except there's recourse if Gox fails to repay, because you did not turn over ownership of anything to Gox, only control (and very limited control, at that). If Gox holds $10 of yours, it's still yours.

- So the analogy doesn't fly. Gox isn't giving you IOUs (except with GoxUSD and GoxBTC codes which are no longer available) - they aren't giving you anything -- they're just showing you what of yours they are in partial control of.
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May 17, 2013, 03:58:03 AM
 #40

Is that person doing it for personal gain, or to bring awareness to it?

His intentions are honorable, but does it matter? (e. g. Robin Hood was a thief with honorable intentions... and in fact he was the criminal)
That isn't really similar, see

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Let me remind you that Matthew N. Wright received a scammer tag on this forum for his trolling that appeared to be a binding contract, lol... And had to settle it somehow with his so called victims, i. e. to pay for it.
Matthew promised to pay out. I never promised to honor Ripple IOUs, and you would have to have misread it to think I was even implying.

I'd also suggest you read Satoshi's quotes on the banking system and the idea of trust. We *don't* need trust anymore with Bitcoin. It's one of the ads for this week too.

I will now be sending the full trust line amount, so they do not become liquidity providers. I think the damage has already being done for that point Smiley
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