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TheVirus
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June 23, 2011, 01:55:21 PM
 #21

Jessy essentially put the final nail in this project's coffin. Anyone reading this thread will read that post, understand the risks better, and walk away. No professional developer in their right mind would invest their time in a, highly possible, disaster. That and the simple fact that Vegetta essentially ignored Jessy's post and asked for a 'TL;DR' version should be warning enough for any potential developer.

I'm sure it'll happen, but I doubt this is it. There are hundreds of millions of people world-wide that watch porn online and pay with cash. You are talking about using Bitcoins for income (which has shown to be extremely volatile) and your maximum customer size is ~100,000 at best. How can you plan on cornering 10% of the adult industry (which is a multi-billion dollar industry) if your maximum customer size is well under 1%? I think you have a good idea, but everyone has those. You are expecting people to put in a ton of work for you and you don't even have the women locked in, nor do you have any sort of hosting facility locked in. You no upfront capital to pay for marketing, hosting, etc.

It's like going to EA, Ubisoft, Activision and saying you have an incredible game idea that will sell millions. You want to oversee the project. You have nothing physical to show them, no story boards, no game design plan, no outline, just an idea in your brain. You know what they will do? They will politely ask you to leave and not contact them again. I have a background in game design and just because you have an idea doesn't mean a damn thing unless you have a prototype to show.

I'm sorry, but this idea, in its current state, is a pipe dream.

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June 23, 2011, 02:37:22 PM
 #22

It is a great dream.  Those without fully understanding the benefits of being a smaller start up, then working towards larger / broad based goals and being able to adapt to the necessary changes that would go into being a larger / broad based site.   Jessy isn't wrong in his thinking, his thinking I do not believe applies to this project.

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June 23, 2011, 03:10:09 PM
 #23

It is a great dream.  Those without fully understanding the benefits of being a smaller start up, then working towards larger / broad based goals and being able to adapt to the necessary changes that would go into being a larger / broad based site.   Jessy isn't wrong in his thinking, his thinking I do not believe applies to this project.

There's a difference between someone with a dream and someone with a dream and a means to complete it. He wants everyone else to complete this project. He has no technical skills, he has no content lined up, he has no initial capital (not everyone will work for free) and he has no specific goals and outlines of what needs to be done. I'm sure someone with far more resources will take an idea like this and make it happen, but that's because they have the content, skills, and knowledge to do it.

Also, Jessy Kang is a female. Specifically, she's a female dom. Jessy is a female name, Jesse is the the androgynous version.

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June 23, 2011, 03:34:37 PM
 #24

Jessy, I actually read your entire post carefully, and although I have no interest in the adult entertainment industry (don't condemn it, just not my thing), I got a lot out of your (and Warren's) ideas.  "Moat" is an important concept; it's essentially why my wife and I had to abandon an educational app that we had put 2 months of part-time work into -- a big player stepped in easily before I got it off the ground since the barriers to entry were low.  As I'm thinking about future opportunities, this concept of moat needs to be burned into my mind lest I waste another 2 months of work.  Thanks for the reminder.

That said, with new technologies, there's always a chance an upstart will end up winning big, since being first in counts for a lot.  The barriers to becoming an online BTC exchange were relatively low (some would say too low, but not me).  But look at how successful MtGox was prior to the hack, just because they were one of the first ones in.  A savvy businessman could have taken all the cash flowing in and created a rock solid site and then been THE online exchange to beat in the coming years.  I suspect it will be the same for Bitcoins and porn.

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June 23, 2011, 04:23:30 PM
 #25

Jessy is a female name

Thanks:-) The rest was just... depressing LOL

As I'm thinking about future opportunities, this concept of moat needs to be burned into my mind lest I waste another 2 months of work.  Thanks for the reminder.

Check out Rework by 37 Signals, pretty much the best book for anyone starting a business. Best business book I ever read.

A savvy businessman could have taken all the cash flowing in and created a rock solid site and then been THE online exchange to beat in the coming years.  I suspect it will be the same for Bitcoins and porn.

Bitcoin is actually not suitable for traditional porn membership sites. With competitive affiliate percentages a lot of sites don't actually get in the black on a new member in the first month.

The bread and butter of membership sites- the absolute lifeblood is recurring billing. Without all those guys who signup, then forget to cancel most sites would not be profitable. With Bitcoins low adoption rate, dropping it in as a payment option for a little buzz and SE traffic is fine- but if it ever caught on and became a significant portion of signups it would cannibalize recurring charges and bankrupt the site. It would really only be practical setting it as Bitcoin for three month membership- we do that with money orders, but it's a tough sell.

Sites that allow you to purchase a single video clip (clips4sale) still have a following- but mostly for hard to find fetish footage you can't get for free. Static content is a very, very tough market to break into these days and not one I'd recommend.

There are certianly opportunities with crypto-currency, but they will probably be realized by people who work within their existing skill set.
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June 23, 2011, 05:45:18 PM
 #26

Jessy is a female name

Thanks:-) The rest was just... depressing LOL

As I'm thinking about future opportunities, this concept of moat needs to be burned into my mind lest I waste another 2 months of work.  Thanks for the reminder.

Check out Rework by 37 Signals, pretty much the best book for anyone starting a business. Best business book I ever read.

A savvy businessman could have taken all the cash flowing in and created a rock solid site and then been THE online exchange to beat in the coming years.  I suspect it will be the same for Bitcoins and porn.

Bitcoin is actually not suitable for traditional porn membership sites. With competitive affiliate percentages a lot of sites don't actually get in the black on a new member in the first month.

The bread and butter of membership sites- the absolute lifeblood is recurring billing. Without all those guys who signup, then forget to cancel most sites would not be profitable. With Bitcoins low adoption rate, dropping it in as a payment option for a little buzz and SE traffic is fine- but if it ever caught on and became a significant portion of signups it would cannibalize recurring charges and bankrupt the site. It would really only be practical setting it as Bitcoin for three month membership- we do that with money orders, but it's a tough sell.

Sites that allow you to purchase a single video clip (clips4sale) still have a following- but mostly for hard to find fetish footage you can't get for free. Static content is a very, very tough market to break into these days and not one I'd recommend.

There are certianly opportunities with crypto-currency, but they will probably be realized by people who work within their existing skill set.

This has been a very interesting thread. I first felt that the BitcoinCam idea was a license to print money but the industry insight that Jessy provided is a real reality check. I think there are lessons here for all potential bitcoin entrepreneurs in any field. Kind of makes me feel sad though: if you cant make money with bitcoin cams where can you  Undecided?

Thanks again for the interesting discussion.

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June 23, 2011, 06:10:28 PM
 #27

Awesome thread! Of course, if all entrepreneurs were easily scared off, we'd still be living in the dark ages.

This makes me think of a book I'm reading at the moment, The Economy of Cities. The author argues that established, highly efficient, large businesses have their place in the economy, but it is small start up firms that are the driving force behind true economic growth. It takes a hotbed of networked small firms coming up with new work, building on old ideas and cannibalizing technology to move an economy forward. This, for instance, is why Detroit was such a marvelous city up until it turned into a few large auto makers dominating the auto industry. Up until that point the Detroit auto industry was a network of small firms and amateurs working out of their home garages, and they invented the modern automobile. As soon as the economy shifted toward mass production they made themselves redundant, because any city in the world with high industrial capacity can engage in high volume manufacturing. They can't, however, imitate imagination and innovation. Of course, this comes at a price: a high rate of failure and low efficiency. But, the author of The Economy of City argues that these are actually the signs of a strong city economy.

More here: http://attackthesystem.com/2011/06/21/more-on-the-economy-of-cities/

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June 23, 2011, 06:54:21 PM
 #28

Awesome thread! Of course, if all entrepreneurs were easily scared off, we'd still be living in the dark ages.

This makes me think of a book I'm reading at the moment, The Economy of Cities. The author argues that established, highly efficient, large businesses have their place in the economy, but it is small start up firms that are the driving force behind true economic growth. It takes a hotbed of networked small firms coming up with new work, building on old ideas and cannibalizing technology to move an economy forward. This, for instance, is why Detroit was such a marvelous city up until it turned into a few large auto makers dominating the auto industry. Up until that point the Detroit auto industry was a network of small firms and amateurs working out of their home garages, and they invented the modern automobile. As soon as the economy shifted toward mass production they made themselves redundant, because any city in the world with high industrial capacity can engage in high volume manufacturing. They can't, however, imitate imagination and innovation. Of course, this comes at a price: a high rate of failure and low efficiency. But, the author of The Economy of City argues that these are actually the signs of a strong city economy.

More here: http://attackthesystem.com/2011/06/21/more-on-the-economy-of-cities/

Vinnie: I like how you broadened a discussion about cam porn into the wider topic of macro economics. Kudos  Tongue

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June 23, 2011, 06:58:06 PM
 #29

It had turned into a conversation about startups vs. established businesses, anyway.

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June 23, 2011, 07:08:21 PM
 #30

Jessy essentially put the final nail in this project's coffin. Anyone reading this thread will read that post, understand the risks better, and walk away. No professional developer in their right mind would invest their time in a, highly possible, disaster. That and the simple fact that Vegetta essentially ignored Jessy's post and asked for a 'TL;DR' version should be warning enough for any potential developer.

I'm sure it'll happen, but I doubt this is it. There are hundreds of millions of people world-wide that watch porn online and pay with cash. You are talking about using Bitcoins for income (which has shown to be extremely volatile) and your maximum customer size is ~100,000 at best. How can you plan on cornering 10% of the adult industry (which is a multi-billion dollar industry) if your maximum customer size is well under 1%? I think you have a good idea, but everyone has those. You are expecting people to put in a ton of work for you and you don't even have the women locked in, nor do you have any sort of hosting facility locked in. You no upfront capital to pay for marketing, hosting, etc.

It's like going to EA, Ubisoft, Activision and saying you have an incredible game idea that will sell millions. You want to oversee the project. You have nothing physical to show them, no story boards, no game design plan, no outline, just an idea in your brain. You know what they will do? They will politely ask you to leave and not contact them again. I have a background in game design and just because you have an idea doesn't mean a damn thing unless you have a prototype to show.

I'm sorry, but this idea, in its current state, is a pipe dream.

I have many technical skills to offer this project including design/html/css/ and administration.

Final nail? I have over 20pm's I'm reviewing right now from developers who are interested. I even have a guy whos offering to fund the entire project, may I politely ask,  who the fuck are you?


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June 23, 2011, 07:09:56 PM
 #31

Awesome thread! Of course, if all entrepreneurs were easily scared off, we'd still be living in the dark ages.

This makes me think of a book I'm reading at the moment, The Economy of Cities. The author argues that established, highly efficient, large businesses have their place in the economy, but it is small start up firms that are the driving force behind true economic growth. It takes a hotbed of networked small firms coming up with new work, building on old ideas and cannibalizing technology to move an economy forward. This, for instance, is why Detroit was such a marvelous city up until it turned into a few large auto makers dominating the auto industry. Up until that point the Detroit auto industry was a network of small firms and amateurs working out of their home garages, and they invented the modern automobile. As soon as the economy shifted toward mass production they made themselves redundant, because any city in the world with high industrial capacity can engage in high volume manufacturing. They can't, however, imitate imagination and innovation. Of course, this comes at a price: a high rate of failure and low efficiency. But, the author of The Economy of City argues that these are actually the signs of a strong city economy.

More here: http://attackthesystem.com/2011/06/21/more-on-the-economy-of-cities/

Vinnie: I like how you broadened a discussion about cam porn into the wider topic of macro economics. Kudos  Tongue
This thread isn't about the ethics of cam porn. It's about getting the necessary people on board to make it happen.

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June 23, 2011, 07:13:02 PM
 #32

Jessy, I actually read your entire post carefully, and although I have no interest in the adult entertainment industry (don't condemn it, just not my thing), I got a lot out of your (and Warren's) ideas.  "Moat" is an important concept; it's essentially why my wife and I had to abandon an educational app that we had put 2 months of part-time work into -- a big player stepped in easily before I got it off the ground since the barriers to entry were low.  As I'm thinking about future opportunities, this concept of moat needs to be burned into my mind lest I waste another 2 months of work.  Thanks for the reminder.

That said, with new technologies, there's always a chance an upstart will end up winning big, since being first in counts for a lot.  The barriers to becoming an online BTC exchange were relatively low (some would say too low, but not me).  But look at how successful MtGox was prior to the hack, just because they were one of the first ones in.  A savvy businessman could have taken all the cash flowing in and created a rock solid site and then been THE online exchange to beat in the coming years.  I suspect it will be the same for Bitcoins and porn.
You don't know who she is, you don't know who pays her. People with her attitude are the ones that are going to cause this currency to ultimately fail, but it won't happen because people like me won't let it happen. There are many amazing uses for Bitcoins, and cam exchanges are one of them. There are many ways to get around the technical difficulties of a fluctuating currency, and I honestly think the concept of bitcams is rock solid no matter what Jesse or anyone else thinks.

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June 23, 2011, 07:19:58 PM
 #33

Jessy is a female name

Thanks:-) The rest was just... depressing LOL

As I'm thinking about future opportunities, this concept of moat needs to be burned into my mind lest I waste another 2 months of work.  Thanks for the reminder.

Check out Rework by 37 Signals, pretty much the best book for anyone starting a business. Best business book I ever read.

A savvy businessman could have taken all the cash flowing in and created a rock solid site and then been THE online exchange to beat in the coming years.  I suspect it will be the same for Bitcoins and porn.

Bitcoin is actually not suitable for traditional porn membership sites. With competitive affiliate percentages a lot of sites don't actually get in the black on a new member in the first month.

The bread and butter of membership sites- the absolute lifeblood is recurring billing. Without all those guys who signup, then forget to cancel most sites would not be profitable. With Bitcoins low adoption rate, dropping it in as a payment option for a little buzz and SE traffic is fine- but if it ever caught on and became a significant portion of signups it would cannibalize recurring charges and bankrupt the site. It would really only be practical setting it as Bitcoin for three month membership- we do that with money orders, but it's a tough sell.

Sites that allow you to purchase a single video clip (clips4sale) still have a following- but mostly for hard to find fetish footage you can't get for free. Static content is a very, very tough market to break into these days and not one I'd recommend.

There are certianly opportunities with crypto-currency, but they will probably be realized by people who work within their existing skill set.

This has been a very interesting thread. I first felt that the BitcoinCam idea was a license to print money but the industry insight that Jessy provided is a real reality check. I think there are lessons here for all potential bitcoin entrepreneurs in any field. Kind of makes me feel sad though: if you cant make money with bitcoin cams where can you  Undecided?

Thanks again for the interesting discussion.
That's the point shes WRONG . Why the hell do people take other people on internet forums so seriously. Half the stuff she spewed on her post was pessimistic garbage, and if you read it initially it was written in an intention to demoralize the entire project as a whole. Who cares what she thinks, if you like bitcams.com and you want to spend your bitcoins there, then what does it matter what any other site is doing? Who cares about her "industry standards", it's girls that need money, that can sign up with very little information, and that can be paid in a fast and anonymous manner. It's a BEAUTIFUL idea, and though it may take a little bit of time to educate the public about bitcoins, it will happen. Money talks bull shit walks, the models will follow the money wherever it is, and right now whether Jesse or anyone reading this post likes it or not, WE HAVE THE MONEY.

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June 23, 2011, 07:32:01 PM
 #34

Jessy is a female name

Thanks:-) The rest was just... depressing LOL

As I'm thinking about future opportunities, this concept of moat needs to be burned into my mind lest I waste another 2 months of work.  Thanks for the reminder.

Check out Rework by 37 Signals, pretty much the best book for anyone starting a business. Best business book I ever read.

A savvy businessman could have taken all the cash flowing in and created a rock solid site and then been THE online exchange to beat in the coming years.  I suspect it will be the same for Bitcoins and porn.

Bitcoin is actually not suitable for traditional porn membership sites. With competitive affiliate percentages a lot of sites don't actually get in the black on a new member in the first month.

The bread and butter of membership sites- the absolute lifeblood is recurring billing. Without all those guys who signup, then forget to cancel most sites would not be profitable. With Bitcoins low adoption rate, dropping it in as a payment option for a little buzz and SE traffic is fine- but if it ever caught on and became a significant portion of signups it would cannibalize recurring charges and bankrupt the site. It would really only be practical setting it as Bitcoin for three month membership- we do that with money orders, but it's a tough sell.

Sites that allow you to purchase a single video clip (clips4sale) still have a following- but mostly for hard to find fetish footage you can't get for free. Static content is a very, very tough market to break into these days and not one I'd recommend.

There are certianly opportunities with crypto-currency, but they will probably be realized by people who work within their existing skill set.
I asked you a very specific question.

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO OFFER TO THE TEAM? other than your pathetic opinions. If you have NOTHING to offer to the team, please stay the hell away from my thread. This was not posted here to be "debated" on whether or not the idea will work, by trolls like you.

It was posted here in the "Project Development" section so that I could find other people who were willing to work together to form something big! And the insults by others about my "technical abilities" is laughable at best. I have much to offer to the team, and will basically be over-seeing every single job on the team, making sure that everything is working perfectly. I make websites and fix computers for a living, THAT'S WHAT I DO,  how someone thinks I'm technically challenged and can't just pull this entire website by myself is a mystery to me.

Let me repeat myself so the trolls and haters can get it through their thick skulls :

I CAN PULL OFF THIS ENTIRE WEBSITE BY MYSELF.

Now if i were to do it by myself would it be as big, or as secure? Of course not, and that's the reason why I am reaching out the "real" bitcoin community to go in this with me, and build something big, not the trolls like you Jesse. Nags like you hurt the future of our community, and our currency.

Please go away.

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June 23, 2011, 07:51:22 PM
 #35

Jessy is a female name

Thanks:-) The rest was just... depressing LOL

As I'm thinking about future opportunities, this concept of moat needs to be burned into my mind lest I waste another 2 months of work.  Thanks for the reminder.

Check out Rework by 37 Signals, pretty much the best book for anyone starting a business. Best business book I ever read.

A savvy businessman could have taken all the cash flowing in and created a rock solid site and then been THE online exchange to beat in the coming years.  I suspect it will be the same for Bitcoins and porn.

Bitcoin is actually not suitable for traditional porn membership sites. With competitive affiliate percentages a lot of sites don't actually get in the black on a new member in the first month.

The bread and butter of membership sites- the absolute lifeblood is recurring billing. Without all those guys who signup, then forget to cancel most sites would not be profitable. With Bitcoins low adoption rate, dropping it in as a payment option for a little buzz and SE traffic is fine- but if it ever caught on and became a significant portion of signups it would cannibalize recurring charges and bankrupt the site. It would really only be practical setting it as Bitcoin for three month membership- we do that with money orders, but it's a tough sell.

Sites that allow you to purchase a single video clip (clips4sale) still have a following- but mostly for hard to find fetish footage you can't get for free. Static content is a very, very tough market to break into these days and not one I'd recommend.

There are certianly opportunities with crypto-currency, but they will probably be realized by people who work within their existing skill set.

Might there not be a demand for porn sites that can't bill you over and over? I don't need to buy porn, but I'd prereally paranoid about the cancellation process and would gladly pay 10-20% more if I had rock solid proof I couldn't be  billed again without consent.

I realize that all current customers are willing to deal with the risk of recurring payments, but that doesn't mean there isn't a set of people who stay away because of this issue, but could be enticed if it was solved.

I think one good model for a site would be to provide performers with support for a cut of revenue, and allow nearly anyone to join, but tag and organize so that people only see what they want. Performers can put out some content for free and ask for donations and then sell private or custom content too.

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June 23, 2011, 08:00:39 PM
 #36


Most people are horrified by the percentage cam providers take- but there are MANY options to choose from, and some ladies do work independently over Skype and YIM. They pay that percentage because the cam providers send a massive amount of traffic so their gross is inevitably higher than if they go it alone. It's no different from renting a Kiosk at the mall.
...
If you permit offshore models to work the cam, it is difficult to get 2257 compliant ID. She may just give you her older sisters ID, you really have no way of knowing. Big cam sites work with overseas "houses" to manage some of this, but it is still a significant risk. We don't have to go into what the jail time would be even for a single underage model.



What I would suggest is a 'overseas house' which operated like a craigslist for offshore bitcoin freelancers working on Skype and YIM. At first, site could try to make money of advertising/referrals. Later, it could charge small fees for posting.


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June 23, 2011, 08:06:48 PM
 #37

Jessy is a female name

Thanks:-) The rest was just... depressing LOL

As I'm thinking about future opportunities, this concept of moat needs to be burned into my mind lest I waste another 2 months of work.  Thanks for the reminder.

Check out Rework by 37 Signals, pretty much the best book for anyone starting a business. Best business book I ever read.

A savvy businessman could have taken all the cash flowing in and created a rock solid site and then been THE online exchange to beat in the coming years.  I suspect it will be the same for Bitcoins and porn.

Bitcoin is actually not suitable for traditional porn membership sites. With competitive affiliate percentages a lot of sites don't actually get in the black on a new member in the first month.

The bread and butter of membership sites- the absolute lifeblood is recurring billing. Without all those guys who signup, then forget to cancel most sites would not be profitable. With Bitcoins low adoption rate, dropping it in as a payment option for a little buzz and SE traffic is fine- but if it ever caught on and became a significant portion of signups it would cannibalize recurring charges and bankrupt the site. It would really only be practical setting it as Bitcoin for three month membership- we do that with money orders, but it's a tough sell.

Sites that allow you to purchase a single video clip (clips4sale) still have a following- but mostly for hard to find fetish footage you can't get for free. Static content is a very, very tough market to break into these days and not one I'd recommend.

There are certianly opportunities with crypto-currency, but they will probably be realized by people who work within their existing skill set.

Might there not be a demand for porn sites that can't bill you over and over? I don't need to buy porn, but I'd prereally paranoid about the cancellation process and would gladly pay 10-20% more if I had rock solid proof I couldn't be  billed again without consent.

I realize that all current customers are willing to deal with the risk of recurring payments, but that doesn't mean there isn't a set of people who stay away because of this issue, but could be enticed if it was solved.

I think one good model for a site would be to provide performers with support for a cut of revenue, and allow nearly anyone to join, but tag and organize so that people only see what they want. Performers can put out some content for free and ask for donations and then sell private or custom content too.

That is a good idea, make it a truly independent site with low over head, and true anonymity. However there must be a way to verify age so that we are in compliance with basic international laws. I don't want the anonymity aspect to get to the heads of some bad people. This will be a very clean site (as clean as any other adult site) with the exception that people can pay on shows like if it were cash at a strip club (bitcoins baby), and anyone can technically participate as long as they follow basic guidelines. Not all of these complicated and invasive credit card sign ups.

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June 23, 2011, 08:09:30 PM
 #38

No middle man gouging the girls

lost interest.

Brad Mills
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June 23, 2011, 08:40:31 PM
 #39

No middle man gouging the girls

lost interest.

maybe you get interest again when the last sentence is corrected:
No middle man gouging the girls -> A real big Man is working the girls doggystyle.

? ;-)

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June 23, 2011, 08:53:10 PM
 #40

German porn viewers know whats up and understand the market Wink

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