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Author Topic: Craig W. only claims to be Satoshi, because he knows the real Satoshi is dead?  (Read 15248 times)
Thekool1s
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February 17, 2020, 02:36:46 AM
Merited by Welsh (2), vapourminer (1), JayJuanGee (1)
 #101

Quote from: johnyj
But I guess he lost his keys to most of the early day bitcoins,

If that is actually the case then he lost the identity of Satoshi aswell. No keys = No Satoshi or Lost Keys = Lost Satoshi's Identity. It's as simple as that... Besides, why would such an ingenious person who has deep understanding of some very low level constructions of early bitcoin architecture would fail to keep a single private key of his addresses? Roll Eyes I have skype conversation almost a decade old still saved on 3 flash drives for one of my web app which has achieved nowhere near the success of what bitcoin has amassed but I still have it just as a proof of sorts, I find it hard to believe that the person who invented bitcoin didn't know how to take care of his keys, even if they were worthless. It makes a nice bedtime story but in real-world speculation gets us nowhere.

TBH I don't think I will be ever satisfied with any proof of sorts. Keys can exchange hands and technical knowledge of Bitcoin /Blockchain can be learned. At the end of the day even if the Real Satoshi decided to come back and say hi, I don't think I will be able to trust that person. Basically you will be trusting the judgement of Theymos and few devs who worked with Satoshi and one of them has already got their judgment in question ( Gavin ), as @xtraelv mentioned... So for me, at least the Identity of Satoshi will forever be a mystery and I am pretty satisfied with that...
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February 17, 2020, 02:57:34 AM
 #102

It is true that of all the faketoshi, it is only craig wright who is most passionate about proving himself to be Satoshi Nakamoto.
According to my logic it is not because he knew that the original satoshi nakamoto had died, but instead he wanted to lure
satoshi nakamoto out of his hiding. So from that he was very confident wanting to prove himself satoshi nakamoto even without
any evidence strong until now.

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February 17, 2020, 04:30:27 AM
 #103

It's not obligatory. For Craig Wright, it’s enough that Satoshi Nakamoto has not been felt for such a long time. Of course, he runs the risk of claiming that he is Satoshi Nakamoto. However, the risk is worth it. In any case, many talk about him, he becomes famous.
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February 17, 2020, 04:32:08 AM
 #104

in my opinion it is more likely that Gavin Andresen was conned by Craig Scammer Wright. he obviously wasn't Satoshi and someone like Gavin could have seen that easily but it is possible that at the time due to all the drama with scaling the scammer played on his emotions and convinced him that his intentions are like his and wants to help scale bitcoin. he did the same with bcashers before screwing them over too.

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February 17, 2020, 05:12:46 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #105

And yet, as we are today Gavin has still never fully retracted his endorsement. He left it at an 'I'm not sure what happened, maybe I was fooled. It doesn't matter anyways'-- something which wright's promoters continues to use to promote wright's legitimacy.

As far as I know, this blog entry of his from 2016 was his last formal comment on the issue:

Quote
Now that six months have gone past, I’m being asked if I still think Craig Wright was Satoshi.

I think there are two possibilities.

Either he was Satoshi, but really wants the world to think he isn’t, so he created an impossible-to-untangle web of truths, half-truths and lies. And ruined his reputation in the process.

If he was Satoshi, we should respect his wish to remain anonymous, and ignore him.

The other possibility is he is a master scammer/fraudster who managed to trick some pretty smart people over a period of several years.

In which case everybody except the victims of his fraud and law enforcement working on behalf of those victims should ignore him.

So, either he was or he wasn’t. In either case, we should ignore him. I regret ever getting involved in the “who was Satoshi” game, and am going to spend my time on more fun and productive pursuits.

So Gavin believes there's an equal chance that Craig is a "master scammer." The narrative that he completely believes Wright is Satoshi has been bogus since before BSV was even an idea. Either way, he clearly says Wright should be ignored. You never see BSVers talk about this blog entry when they talk about Gavin, its always a YouTube clip of an interview he gave _before_ he wrote this post.

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February 17, 2020, 05:40:52 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #106

Quote from: johnyj
But I guess he lost his keys to most of the early day bitcoins,

If that is actually the case then he lost the identity of Satoshi aswell. No keys = No Satoshi or Lost Keys = Lost Satoshi's Identity. It's as simple as that... Besides, why would such an ingenious person who has deep understanding of some very low level constructions of early bitcoin architecture would fail to keep a single private key of his addresses? Roll Eyes I have skype conversation almost a decade old still saved on 3 flash drives for one of my web app which has achieved nowhere near the success of what bitcoin has amassed but I still have it just as a proof of sorts, I find it hard to believe that the person who invented bitcoin didn't know how to take care of his keys, even if they were worthless. It makes a nice bedtime story but in real-world speculation gets us nowhere.

TBH I don't think I will be ever satisfied with any proof of sorts. Keys can exchange hands and technical knowledge of Bitcoin /Blockchain can be learned. At the end of the day even if the Real Satoshi decided to come back and say hi, I don't think I will be able to trust that person. Basically you will be trusting the judgement of Theymos and few devs who worked with Satoshi and one of them has already got their judgment in question ( Gavin ), as @xtraelv mentioned... So for me, at least the Identity of Satoshi will forever be a mystery and I am pretty satisfied with that...

Satoshi losing his keys doesn't mean his identity is lost as well. This was actually discussed about a year or 2 ago on this forum and basically people asked the same question. If he lost his keys could he still prove his identity? And the answer was yes. And I believe it was the forum moderator Theymos that stated that there are other ways he can prove he is Satoshi.

One method could be he could recall private conversations of PM with certain individuals, something that only was discussed in private between 2 users. Even though his account here is locked, the PM might still be saved somewhere and as long as Satoshi remembers certain conversations, it can be used to prove his identity.

If Craig W wanted to do this then he could of but I don't think he even tried.
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February 17, 2020, 06:00:17 AM
 #107

Just an idea. If Craig Wright is NOT Satoshi Nakamoto, he would definitely risk the real Satoshi come up with a proof, that Craig is not SN. Is it possible, that CW explicitly knows about the death of the person behind SN, so he can make his claims without backing them up with a proof?  Roll Eyes
you have a good point here because the way he claims the Name he is so sure about nothing will run unto Him,and also he is so confident about the claims.

but the Only Problem is he has no complete proof of being Satoshi so it means Him being Faketoshi.
the only way needs is the Address and also the Bitcointalk account that will Give him a chance to prove His claims.

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February 17, 2020, 06:24:24 AM
 #108

Just an idea. If Craig Wright is NOT Satoshi Nakamoto, he would definitely risk the real Satoshi come up with a proof, that Craig is not SN. Is it possible, that CW explicitly knows about the death of the person behind SN, so he can make his claims without backing them up with a proof?  Roll Eyes
you have a good point here because the way he claims the Name he is so sure about nothing will run unto Him,and also he is so confident about the claims.

but the Only Problem is he has no complete proof of being Satoshi so it means Him being Faketoshi.
the only way needs is the Address and also the Bitcointalk account that will Give him a chance to prove His claims.
What are the real goals and purpose of Craig Wright that he really claims that he is the real Satoshi Nakamoto? But we all know that he is not the real one because he doesn't gives any concrete proof that he is the real Satoshi.

I really think that the real Satoshi does not wanted to intefere with Craig Wright because he really wanted to stay anonymous until he dies.

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February 17, 2020, 07:03:19 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #109

Right on the money, he saw there was a weakness in the community and exploited it for his own purposes, that was the eagerness to find out and follow Satoshi like he was some prophet. Then he saw the vulnerability in the community through their fighting of blocks and jumped into bed with Roger, then he saw the opportunity to take power from roger and lead those who were already weak enough to follow bcash as some truer bitcoin.

What's next? Whatever the next drama is, I am sure he will be there to try and take advantage of it.

Couldn't agree more with this, and it's the same attitude I would advice for every troll in every space, in real life and in crypto. The more we give them attention, the more they enjoy the spotlight and the more they are motivated to make up all things.

Though, I actually think there could be a logic in CW making these claims because he knows the real guy can't. Whether he's dead or simply unable to, I don't know.

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February 17, 2020, 12:07:30 PM
 #110

Right on the money, he saw there was a weakness in the community and exploited it for his own purposes, that was the eagerness to find out and follow Satoshi like he was some prophet. Then he saw the vulnerability in the community through their fighting of blocks and jumped into bed with Roger, then he saw the opportunity to take power from roger and lead those who were already weak enough to follow bcash as some truer bitcoin.

What's next? Whatever the next drama is, I am sure he will be there to try and take advantage of it.

Couldn't agree more with this, and it's the same attitude I would advice for every troll in every space, in real life and in crypto. The more we give them attention, the more they enjoy the spotlight and the more they are motivated to make up all things.

Though, I actually think there could be a logic in CW making these claims because he knows the real guy can't. Whether he's dead or simply unable to, I don't know.

Trolls typically stay ano and not go via courts and public

No

CSW takes that all very serious

Fear and full bags are never good advisors btw

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February 17, 2020, 01:43:05 PM
 #111

Quote from: adaseb
One method could be he could recall private conversations of PM with certain individuals, something that only was discussed in private between 2 users. Even though his account here is locked, the PM might still be saved somewhere and as long as Satoshi remembers certain conversations, it can be used to prove his identity.

Basically trusting the judgement of people you have never met in real life, if that does the trick for you I'm fine by that but for me, it isn't the proof. PM's can be compromised and keys can exchange hand, So yeah even if the real satoshi signed the addresses and provided some detailed descriptions about the conversations he had with theymos or core devs it still won't do the trick for me... There is no way even Satoshi can prove to me that he is Satoshi basically...
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February 17, 2020, 10:22:21 PM
Merited by mindrust (5), Lauda (3), vapourminer (1), GazetaBitcoin (1), Last of the V8s (1)
 #112

I, nullius, am a 118-year-old Russian princess named Anastasia!  (← If I were to say this seriously, and say it loudly enough, and insist on it with neither uncertainty nor hesitation, then somebody, somewhere would actually believe it—and more somebodies would have some doubts.)

Whereas BSV propaganda is actually more effective than Bcash propaganda, because contra what you were told as a child, a half-truth isn’t the worst lie...

I must preface this by noting that I doubt Craig Wright’s own ability to carry off such a—well, a psy-op by himself.  In view of how the Faketoshi sham is being handled overall, I expect that Wright has some sound advice in some form or another.  He is a shrewd scammer, but he was never so smart as one who could understand the deeper details of human psychology.  Money and power are on the line.  Cui bono?



Blackhat Mindhacking 101:  Exploiting Wetware Insecurity

This is a basic exploit in human psychology—a sort of stack-smashing buffer overflow of the capacity to assess falsehoods:

I think in general the pattern we've seen from Wright is that he isn't particularly convincing or persuasive, but rather he exploits the fact that people are usually unprepared to deal with such an audacious liar.  ... the sort of person who will go literally red faced screaming at you that NO, IN FACT THE SKY IS GREEN NOT BLUE THE SKY IS GREEN.  When faced with behaviour like that some people just start wondering if maybe its legit because they'd personally never act that way unless they were telling the truth and were absolutely sure of it.

Damn.  You made me look outside at the sky, just to double-check!  And then, I started wondering if maybe, just maybe, I am colourblind—protanopia often does cause difficulty distinguishing green from blue!—or perchance, I went slightly insane, and I confused the meanings of basic English words blue and green in some Twilight Zone style psychosis...

You sounded so sure.  Nobody would sound so sure unless he is sure, and he’s telling the truth.  Subjectively, I know that I wouldn’t dare to tell such a whopper—and if I tried, I would stammer and stare at my toes or glance around nervously, instead of saying it straight while looking you in the eye.

Of course, it is not necessary for me to be so introspective as to think through all of this:  I feel that nobody could tell such a lie, because I instinctively feel that I myself couldn’t.  I empathize:  I feel what a liar would feel in that position, and thus, I feel that he must not be lying.  It feels terrifying to me.

It is not because I am so virtuous.  I know that I could probably get away with the petty little lies that most people sometimes tell themselves and others.  But such a ghastly monster of a lie, telling people that the sky is green?  I would fear being caught; I wouldn’t dare!  When I see Dr. Wright declare that he invented Bitcoin, I wince, and wonder in the back of my mind what the consequences will be if he’s lying—no, I wouldn’t dare!  Therefore, nobody would dare...

Add to that:  You apparently have more education than I do, and you definitely have more money than I do, and you’ve got plenty of friends for “social proof”—hell, you are even better-looking than I am!—I am just some guy on the Internet; how I am to be sure you’re wrong?  —And who am I to say so?  I am a no-name nobody; I’m a nothing, a nullity.  (nullius = Latin: ‘of nobody, of nothing, of zero’.)

Doctor Craig Satoshi
fresh-scrubbed and dolled up as best he can manage,
showing credentials, looking confident,
surrounded by a retinue (see also):

Loading image...
Who am I to question him?  Dare I?

Could the sky be green?  You made me seriously question my own judgment, just because you sound so certain!

I’ve been advised that I am “nowhere near as smart as [I] (and apparently many merit sources) think” I am.  Since my childhood, I’ve been told that I should be humble.  How can I be sure of the authority of my own mind?  —Dare I risk being left to stand alone?

Quote
Nullian Rule:  To exercise fully independent judgment in the face of opposition requires that one’s humility be inversely proportional to the strength of the opposition.

And the delicate Internet tea-party debate-club members would never dream of using ad hominem argumentation, even when it is objectively correct!  Need I remind you that argumentum ad hominem is only an “informal fallacy”, and is not at all fallacious when personality and personal credibility are relevant to—no, are the issues being argued?  Oops, I forgot that.  I became so “logical” that I feel like I should avoid anything ad hominem.

Furthermore, I’ve been told that it is rude to insult someone by calling him a “liar”.  Mother said so:  I should judge actions and not people, and put things in terms of “‘I’ statements” and diffident requests, not harsh demands:  “Dr. Wright, you make me feel like your claims are incredible; would you please provide me a verifiable Satoshi signature at the threshold, or at least explain to me one more time why you refuse to do so?  I’m sure that you are a good person—we are all good people, deep down inside!—there must be some little misunderstanding.  Maybe I misunderstood something.  I am sorry if I hurt your feelings; I apologise!  It’s not you; it’s me.”

Courageous, unconcerned, scornful, coercive...” is what I was taught not to be by my mother, and my kindergarten teacher,* and the finger-wagging Sunday-school teacher who told me that the meek shall inherit the Earth, by the mass-media culture, the movies, the teevee, and the beauty-pageant winner who said that all she wants is world peace and to meet a nice guy.  Sounds great in a swimsuit.  To stand up and face someone down is to be a jerk:  Cruel, contemptuous, forceful, domineering, heartless, as if I’m some aristocrat who looks down his nose at everybody.  It is indubitably unkind and unsympathetic.  Why can’t I at least be nice to somebody who tells me that the sky is green?

Quote
Philological protip:  Compare the etymological development of the word “nice” with the proposition, “...der ungefährliche Mensch sein muss: er ist gutmüthig, leicht zu betrügen, ein bischen dumm vielleicht, un bonhomme. Überall, wo die Sklaven-Moral zum Übergewicht kommt, zeigt die Sprache eine Neigung, die Worte ‘gut’ und ‘dumm’ einander anzunähern.”

And I know, gmaxwell, Dr. Wright’s (actual) credentials do not compare to yours—however, Gavin Andresen’s socially important credentials do!  Why, he even has the mark of popular fame in $CURRENT_YEAR:  A Wikipedia page!  Sorry, I could not find one for you (despite your @wikimedia address).  And Gavin is the official Chief Scientist of the Bitcoin Foundation, he has a three-digit forum ID, he hob-nobs with big cheeses in the government and the Council on Foreign Relations...  Even if I were so terrifically prideful as to argue against Dr. Wright, who am I to argue with Gavin?  —Who am I, just-nobody, to stand alone and call him out, cast the first stone and say that he is an untrustworthy liar?

Dr. Wright has been expertly “verified” by the Bitcoin Chief Scientist.  He also has some peer pressure on his side.  hv_ and his buddies are Internet nobodies; but then, I’m the guy who named himself “of nobody” on the Internet.  Who am I to call hv_ such nasty names as “shill”, “liar”, etc.?  Him, and plenty like him (a dime a dozen)...  Who am I to stand against Dr. Wright and the Bitcoin Chief Scientist and a crowd of folks?  Authority plus peer pressure!*again  When Dr. Wright sounds so sure...

Anyway, Sir Maxwell, I feel sheepish; I admit that you may have a point here.  If I dare to repudiate your fully self-confident declaration that the sky is green, then either people will think I’m a jerk, or people will think I’m a fool.  Maybe both!  I dunno.  Maybe you are right.

Maybe my eyes are lying to me, or maybe I made a big mistake—and then everyone will laugh at me, because the sky actually is green, and the Earth is flat, and 2 + 2 = 5, and Dr. Craig Steven Wright invented Bitcoin, and I’m just so stupid that I didn’t realize it.

* nullius is suddenly feeling so insecure. :-(



Craig Wright does not need for a majority of people to believe him:  He needs only for a hard core of shills and fanatics to believe him, whilst the majority wavers.

Military counterinsurgency studies show that a revolution can be carried off by as little as 10% of the population.  This applies to both violent and nonviolent “revolutions” in the sense that the deciding factor is social change of opinion.  The majority is always deadweight:  Apathetic fence-sitters, at best.  If the majority has no too-strong opinion, then its opinion will be carried by a vocal, absolutely fanatical minority—if there is no opposing minority of equal or greater strength and certitude.

In the current context:  If Craig Wright can play the mass-media to introduce doubt into the minds of most people who have heard of Bitcoin, and if he is shilled to the hilt by a cadre of hv_ types, and if the only significant opposition is a bunch of forum theorists who won’t push the issue as hard as hv_ does, then Faketoshi will win.

That he is wrong is irrelevant.  History shows that contra popular delusions, the truth is a fragile and precious thing.  Lies are robust, because they appeal to the power of human frailty—and because they can be manufactured at will:  I have only one truth, but Craig Wright can make up a new lie every day so as to drown my protests of truth in endless arguments.

A compounding factor is the distaste that many Bitcoiners have for drama, hostility, and especially, emotionalist arguments and ad hominem attacks.  It is good to have a culture that values logical arguments—but do not confuse critical thinking skills for efficacy at persuasive argument.  If Craig Wright wields false persuasive arguments against your facts and logic, then he will win the hearts and minds of the majority, whose critical thinking skills are negligible.  As I have said before:  Don’t bring a sword to a gunfight.

If you debate the question of Craig Wright’s claims to or before the average person, then you may mostly convince him—yet he will harbour a lingering doubt:  How can I be sure that Craig Wright isn’t Satoshi?  He seems so sure...  As aforesaid, the doubt is Faketoshi’s trump card, his secret nuclear weapon.  And you allowed that doubt to persist, via your first mistake:  Debating a question in a reasonable manner, which implies that there is a reasonable question to debate!

Craig Wright is not Satoshi Nakamoto.  He did not invent Bitcoin.  He is a liar, a scammer, and a grand-scale identity thief.  Every expert who has ever examined the matter has so concluded, without any doubt—except for Gavin, the same Gavin of the thoroughly corrupted so-called “Bitcoin Foundation”, the same Gavin who visited the CIA and the CFR before embarking on a years-long campaign of fork attacks against Bitcoin!  Gavin has no credibility.

That is a conclusion, not an argument—and certainly not an invitation to debate.  I will only debate Faketoshi or his shills if they can produce the most basic piece of evidence:  A verifiable signed statement by one of Satoshi’s known keys, identifying Craig Wright as Satoshi.  They do not do so, because they are liars or dupes—period.  That is the truth, the objective truth, based on facts and not “debates”.  Complaints >/dev/null

This is how it’s done, folks!

Don’t waver in the face of lies.  Don’t quibble with liars.  The emotional question in the minds of those watching these “debates”:  Are you as confident that Craig Wright is not Satoshi, as he seems to be when he declares that he is?

I exceed his confidence because I am a Bitcoin expert, I have examined the facts, and I know that Wright is dead wrong.  I know the truth.  I do not need to argue.



* A small personal story—not quite about kindergarten, per se:  When I was in the sixth grade, a teacher said something gratuitously rude to the class unpopular kid—and the whole class laughed at him, except for me.  He was the stereotypical unpopular kid:  Jewish, nerdy as hell, a face as handsome as dog barf, skinny and runty, but inadvertently too wont to advertise his 148 IQ—and he was enthusiastic about books of tricky riddles and little mathematical puzzles.

He was admittedly annoying:  Mostly harmless; but all he ever wanted to talk about was puzzle books, Star Trek (yes!), or this top-of-the-line new computer that his family had just bought, way back when that was a big thing...  And since he knew that he annoyed people, he had the exact opposite of self-confidence.  He thus annoyed all the worse, with a self-conscious, desperate puppy-dog friendliness.

I don’t remember what the teacher said to him; it was forgettable, just a matter of picking on him like everybody else did.  There certainly was no reason.  He was supinely diffident, a wannabe teacher’s pet; he wouldn’t have even imagined doing anything to incur the teacher’s negative opinion, much less dared it.  And for my part, the teacher never would have expected me to dare opposing authority.  A congenital tendency to orderliness is easily mistaken for blind obedience by those who see only the surface.

I abruptly stood up on my chair, and told the teacher with cold courtesy that she was wrong.  Cue twenty pairs of eyes suddenly staring at me—of a sudden, you could have heard a pin drop.  ’Twas the silence of mass shock, from the teacher on down.

Later that day, the teacher approached me in the hallway, hugged me, and profusely apologised to me.  I have no idea what she said to him, if anything at all.  I never asked him, because I wasn’t really his friend, either:  I was born to be nobody’s; I kept everybody at arm’s length.  He liked me, though—probably because I didn’t treat him like dirt, he could invite me to his birthday party without the risk of a crushing rejection, and he respected my IQ of higher-than-his.

Now, I am not sure whether I accidentally wrote a saccharine glurge story, or showed myself tenfold as arrogant for my sense that noblesse oblige.  Anyway, the point of the story is about the social pressure of combined authority and peer opinions in the abstract, irrespective of the particulars of the circumstance.  Moreover, I have with myself a running contest for the title of “the longest footnote in history”—so to speak.





Postscript:  A Liar’s Equivocation

Boldface is mine:

So Gavin believes there's an equal chance that Craig is a "master scammer." The narrative that he completely believes Wright is Satoshi has been bogus since before BSV was even an idea.

Soooooo...  Let me get this straight.  After he played a pivotal rôle in the creation of a monster, your excuse for Gavin is that he equivocates?

Either way, he clearly says Wright should be ignored.

...and that he sometimes may whine that, in substantial effect, would you please ignore something that is very embarrassing to him—which he himself is too dishonest, too cowardly, and/or too compromised to repudiate with the same mass-media “Bitcoin Foundation Chief Scientist” starburst as with which he originally “verified” Faketoshi?

You never see BSVers talk about this blog entry when they talk about Gavin, its always a YouTube clip of an interview he gave _before_ he wrote this post.

You see, that is the “nice”* thing about equivocation:  Faketoshi can get the support he needs, and Gavin can try to repair his reputation without actually repudiating his “verification” unequivocally, in no uncertain terms.

(* See above notes on “nice” etymology.)

Gavin has done massive actual harm:  Bitcoin Foundation, XT, Faketoshi “verification”, Btrash shilling...  You are defending him because he says there’s an “equal chance” that Craig Wright is either a scammer or Satoshi!?

Not falling for that one.  If he ever wants to be known as anything but a malicious liar, he needs to come clean and put serious effort into repairing the actual damage that he did.  Shrugging doesn’t cut it.

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February 17, 2020, 10:40:29 PM
 #113

Just an idea. If Craig Wright is NOT Satoshi Nakamoto, he would definitely risk the real Satoshi come up with a proof, that Craig is not SN. Is it possible, that CW explicitly knows about the death of the person behind SN, so he can make his claims without backing them up with a proof?  Roll Eyes

But are you framing him for murder or?

Hah, jk, if your theory is true then he and SN knew each other in the past, but if SN didn't give him the private keys to the genesis block or close-to-genesis blocks then he wasn't someone of trust to SN, so why would we trust him then?
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February 17, 2020, 11:12:33 PM
 #114

It's not obligatory. For Craig Wright, it’s enough that Satoshi Nakamoto has not been felt for such a long time. Of course, he runs the risk of claiming that he is Satoshi Nakamoto. However, the risk is worth it. In any case, many talk about him, he becomes famous.
That makes him more of that and I really wonder why he have the guts to claim himself as the real Satoshi. We don’t know much about it and maybe he has the right to do so. If the real Satoshi was dead then claiming himself as the real one is pathetic, he can’t pretend forever.
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February 18, 2020, 03:01:41 AM
 #115


I'm not reading the portion of this post that doesn't apply to me. I have things to do.

Boldface is mine:

So Gavin believes there's an equal chance that Craig is a "master scammer." The narrative that he completely believes Wright is Satoshi has been bogus since before BSV was even an idea.

Soooooo...  Let me get this straight.  After he played a pivotal rôle in the creation of a monster, your excuse for Gavin is that he equivocates?

What? No you goof. I'm not "excusing" Gavin -- I'm simply relaying his _actual words_, which are _less_ favorable for BSV than BSV shills would have us believe. Admittedly I don't know if he put an equal weight on both scenarios. He might favor one more than the other.

How do you twist this into me making excuses for Gavin?
  
...and that he sometimes may whine that, in substantial effect, would you please ignore something that is very embarrassing to him—which he himself is too dishonest, too cowardly, and/or too compromised to repudiate with the same mass-media “Bitcoin Foundation Chief Scientist” starburst as with which he originally “verified” Faketoshi?

Truth be told, Gavin did far more for bitcoin than you and I ever have and ever will so if the man wants to have an opinion, let him have it.

Gavin has done massive actual harm:  Bitcoin Foundation, XT, Faketoshi “verification”, Btrash shilling...  You are defending him because he says there’s an “equal chance” that Craig Wright is either a scammer or Satoshi!?

If I were in less of a mood I would be inclined to tell you to go fuck yourself.

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February 18, 2020, 03:25:11 AM
 #116

Another theory about Craig Wright aren't we have enough from this person?
I wonder what would be the next topic about him everytime a famous person speaks about him would be a big topic on crypto.

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February 18, 2020, 06:08:19 AM
Last edit: February 18, 2020, 06:39:27 AM by JayJuanGee
 #117

There are way too many theories about this. We can only assume and speculate. But in the end, I think it doesn't even matter.

It may not matter who Satoshi is, but it does matter if someone is fraudulently misleading others into believing that he is Satoshi and is otherwise engaging in behaviors that are used to attack bitcoin... especially if some of the attacks and misleading efforts are effective in the short term.  Sure, maybe in the long run, those various attacks on bitcoin will not be successful, but in the meantime, there will be some innocent people who are damaged during such scammening attempts, which should matter, no?

Quote from: johnyj
But I guess he lost his keys to most of the early day bitcoins,

If that is actually the case then he lost the identity of Satoshi aswell. No keys = No Satoshi or Lost Keys = Lost Satoshi's Identity. It's as simple as that... Besides, why would such an ingenious person who has deep understanding of some very low level constructions of early bitcoin architecture would fail to keep a single private key of his addresses? Roll Eyes I have skype conversation almost a decade old still saved on 3 flash drives for one of my web app which has achieved nowhere near the success of what bitcoin has amassed but I still have it just as a proof of sorts, I find it hard to believe that the person who invented bitcoin didn't know how to take care of his keys, even if they were worthless. It makes a nice bedtime story but in real-world speculation gets us nowhere.

TBH I don't think I will be ever satisfied with any proof of sorts. Keys can exchange hands and technical knowledge of Bitcoin /Blockchain can be learned. At the end of the day even if the Real Satoshi decided to come back and say hi, I don't think I will be able to trust that person. Basically you will be trusting the judgement of Theymos and few devs who worked with Satoshi and one of them has already got their judgment in question ( Gavin ), as @xtraelv mentioned... So for me, at least the Identity of Satoshi will forever be a mystery and I am pretty satisfied with that...

I agree with everything that you say, Thekool1s, except maybe I would quibble somewhat with any kind of absolute assertion regarding the extent to which it would matter if satoshi really did show up or was found out.  

Sure, it is likely true that satoshi showing up should not matter too much to the actual development of bitcoin, because bitcoin has gone down a community consensus path that should, in theory, be quite difficult for any single person to change, even if Satoshi did identified himself (or was unambiguously identified) (and sure, he could already be involved in the space in an ongoing way, but we just had not known his true identity).  

So, yeah, if Satoshi were to show up, then how he showed up, and if he changed his behaviors, such as beginning to move around a lot of coins, then those kinds of behaviors could have a very strong affect on bitcoin, especially in the short term and public perception, including causing his identity to matter based on what kinds of conduct that he engaged in or where he had been during this whole time (the extent of his continued involvement).

Furthermore, let's say for example, that AGD's speculation that Satoshi is dead were to be correct, and in that case there could still be some concerns about the manner in which he passes down of the keys to his coins through inheritance or other means, then those kinds of outcomes could have decently large short-term affects on the bitcoin market, even though perhaps in the longer run, the honey badger would not give too many shits.  

By the way, as was already mentioned several times in this thread, I really don't buy AGD's speculation that CSW actually knows anything about Satoshi being dead or not.  CSW merely remains a mere simpleton scam artist that is has been capable of latching onto any kind of ambiguous situation and spouting out some kind of dramatic baloney that has been proved to have been wrong so many times that there should hardly be any question that the guy lives in a kind of fantasy land.... except he seems to have enough of a budget and a means to even fund his scams, publication of his scams and to get others to go along with his baloney for their own reasons, perhaps pumpening of shitcoins or naysaying/attacking bitcoin.

Sure, there may be a decent number of people who have sufficiently developed senses to be able to identify those kinds of fraudulent personalities, and can identify the scamminess, contradictions and exaggerations soon enough to write off that diptwat... but that still does not mean that the ongoing bullshit propagation of CSW does not cause ripples from people who don't have either the ability or knowledge to identify his pedigree of seemingly obvious bullshit artistry, so some innocent people are likely get caught up in some of that phoney baloney misleading information, too.  

1) Self-Custody is a right.  There is no such thing as "non-custodial" or "un-hosted."  2) ESG, KYC & AML are attack-vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.  3) How much alt (shit)coin diversification is necessary? if you are into Bitcoin, then 0%......if you cannot control your gambling, then perhaps limit your alt(shit)coin exposure to less than 10% of your bitcoin size...Put BTC here: bc1q49wt0ddnj07wzzp6z7affw9ven7fztyhevqu9k
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February 18, 2020, 11:28:09 AM
 #118

Just an idea. If Craig Wright is NOT Satoshi Nakamoto, he would definitely risk the real Satoshi come up with a proof, that Craig is not SN. Is it possible, that CW explicitly knows about the death of the person behind SN, so he can make his claims without backing them up with a proof?  Roll Eyes
We don't know! We don't have any knowledge who is the real satoshi Nakamoto is and if he is still alive or not. We don't know why mr. Craig Wright is claiming that he is the real Satoshi Nakamoto, but the thing is what if he really knows who Satoshi Nakamoto is? And he already know that the real Satoshi Nakamoto doesn't have the plan on revealing himself so Mr. Craig Wright is claiming it in order to gain the popularity that he wants. What if that is the case?

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February 18, 2020, 12:01:37 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #119

Just an idea. If Craig Wright is NOT Satoshi Nakamoto, he would definitely risk the real Satoshi come up with a proof, that Craig is not SN. Is it possible, that CW explicitly knows about the death of the person behind SN, so he can make his claims without backing them up with a proof?  Roll Eyes
you have a good point here because the way he claims the Name he is so sure about nothing will run unto Him,and also he is so confident about the claims.

but the Only Problem is he has no complete proof of being Satoshi so it means Him being Faketoshi.
the only way needs is the Address and also the Bitcointalk account that will Give him a chance to prove His claims.
What are the real goals and purpose of Craig Wright that he really claims that he is the real Satoshi Nakamoto? But we all know that he is not the real one because he doesn't gives any concrete proof that he is the real Satoshi.

I really think that the real Satoshi does not wanted to intefere with Craig Wright because he really wanted to stay anonymous until he dies.
or really that he dies for long time that is why CSW is claiming to be One.
and that is also the point of this thread.
Another theory about Craig Wright aren't we have enough from this person?
I wonder what would be the next topic about him everytime a famous person speaks about him would be a big topic on crypto.
because he is bringing popularity to crypto,His sh*ts bringing us advertising specially to the international community ,and let us just be happy with a clown lol.

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February 18, 2020, 01:27:13 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #120

Truth be told, Gavin did far more for bitcoin than you and I ever have and ever will so if the man wants to have an opinion, let him have it.
Sorry, but you are wrong on this one. He never apologized for the things he did, and somewhat still supports them or never retracted his support properly. By letting stuff like this happen we are strengthening, and actually encourging attacks and loss of funds that happened to to common Joe believing people like him - Yes, Gavin is both directly and indirectly responsible for uncountable financial damage. Back before these things actually were happening, I was spamming on the forum and people privately left and right to save as many individuals from being burned by the orchestrated scam as I could..

There is a very good difference between the past Gavin (pre-attacks) and the current one. The former deserves much credit and trust, the latter neither. Don't "godify" somebody and/or their contributions just because they were a decent software engineer at the right place and the right time, by chance..
Note: The scaling and all the "fork" stuff thereafter is not "opinion", that's a lie perpetuated by the less intelligent and knowledgeable (Ver et. al.). It is pure science, objective, mathematical science. No room for a "Software Engineer" such as Gavin to have a "opinion". Something is either a 1 or a 0, not an opinion based on who looks at the particular bit.

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