Official Avalon mining rig clones thread from bitmine.ch (NOW SHIPPING)

[cimpex]

@gotah
You can argue that you make your products on customers demand. I'm wright with you that the law is a bit different in this case (-> @ProfMac).

You stated 2 things at the same time, both are part of the contract:
FAQ "wasn't shipped yet" and "All sales are final"
That means (or could mean): Refunds possible till it is shipped and when it's already shipped then we have a final sale and no return/refund is possible because the device was made on customers demand. Then everything is legal!

But if you mean "All sales are final" has a different meaning to your FAQ "wasn't shipped yet" then the TOS are not clear and it is always to the advantage of the private customer. + FAQ "wasn't shipped yet" is a much more clearer statement than "All sales are final" (see above).

It would be hard for the customers to get a full refund if you hadn't stated "wasn't shipped yet" in your FAQ.

Mr. Anselmi sent me a message -> everything ok with the refund.

@Big Time Coin
Well, important things should be read be everyone. I think there is nothing against my statements and within 168 posts it should be ok to post 2 big fat red ones.

It's totally reasonable to not offer refunds on assembly where they have to source parts.

I'm totaly with you, but see above.

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[Xialla]

For your information:
"All sales are final" is against European Law, even in Switzerland! This is NO B2B sale!
The good thing here: There is a law enforcement treaty between EU and Switzerland.

BTW: I asked Mr. Anselmi before your "production" status message applied. He asked me if I would change my mind when he offers me an "twince an avalon bitfury upgrade" and gave me time for the decision + I won't loose my right for refund. I decided for refund 1 week ago and I still got no confirmation.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm

Code:

This seven-day “cooling off” period begins on the day when you receive your purchase. 

You can choose to cancel your order for any reason within this timeframe – even if you simply changed your mind.

The seller must give you a refund within 30 days. This refund must include any shipping charges you paid when you made your purchase.

I know that Switzerland is not in EU, but I expect very similar conditions here.

I am used to "custom orders" being "non-refundable" as a standard of business in Texas.  The consumer protections of commodity items does not apply.  Is that situation different in Switzerland?

yes, because there is not "custom order" between Swiss and the rest of EU, because both are part of Schengen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

I'm pretty sure, that link mentioned above is valid at least for EU based customers. as already mentioned, it is not B2B sales and standart customer rules are applied here.

[cimpex]

For your information:
"All sales are final" is against European Law, even in Switzerland! This is NO B2B sale!
The good thing here: There is a law enforcement treaty between EU and Switzerland.

BTW: I asked Mr. Anselmi before your "production" status message applied. He asked me if I would change my mind when he offers me an "twince an avalon bitfury upgrade" and gave me time for the decision + I won't loose my right for refund. I decided for refund 1 week ago and I still got no confirmation.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm

Code:

This seven-day “cooling off” period begins on the day when you receive your purchase. 

You can choose to cancel your order for any reason within this timeframe – even if you simply changed your mind.

The seller must give you a refund within 30 days. This refund must include any shipping charges you paid when you made your purchase.

I know that Switzerland is not in EU, but I expect very similar conditions here.

I am used to "custom orders" being "non-refundable" as a standard of business in Texas.  The consumer protections of commodity items does not apply.  Is that situation different in Switzerland?

yes, because there is not "custom order" between Swiss and the rest of EU, because both are part of Schengen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

I'm pretty sure, that link mentioned above is valid at least for EU based customers. as already mentioned, it is not B2B sales and standart customer rules are applied here.

ProfMac is wright, I already described it. -> There is a difference with on customers demand made products.
"custom order" has nothing to do with the "customs" at the border.

[Xialla]

"custom order" has nothing to do with the "customs" at the border.

.)) meeh, I wrongly read it

[cimpex]

BTW: Schengen is NOT the same as customs union! For everything from Switzerland (with a -declared- value higher than 22 € for parcels/ I think 130 € when crossing the border by car,train,... and 430 € if you travel by plane) you have to pay VAT.

For miners from Bitmine VAT has to be paid too (19% in Germany).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area#Customs_controls
"However not all Schengen states or all of the territory of Schengen states are part of the customs union or VAT area, so some controls on goods entering or leaving the customs union and/or VAT area are inevitable."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Customs_Union#Non-EU_members

[Kj1]

Everybody please check https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281307.0

Bitmine.ch; would you consider running the units yourself the first month (it will save maybee more then a week from delivery time) for your customers? You have a datacenter right?  This first weeks are essential in getting ROI with these huge diff increases. After that, a week downtime (the shipping) will hurt less.  Or they can take the managed hosting packet.

Just an idea; but it might ease the tension at little cost to you and it is profitable for customers!

[gotah]

Everybody please check https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281307.0

Bitmine.ch; would you consider running the units yourself the first month (it will save maybee more then a week from delivery time) for your customers? You have a datacenter right?  This first weeks are essential in getting ROI with these huge diff increases. After that, a week downtime (the shipping) will hurt less.  Or they can take the managed hosting packet.

Just an idea; but it might ease the tension at little cost to you and it is profitable for customers!

Interesting idea, we need to elaborate it internally, thanks for the suggestion

@cimpex: I'm Mr Anselmi

[tranquille]

First - let me ask this

ad. 2) -
Have you really offered upgrades to GEN II chips to your customers?
I have not seen anything else except a very vague statement regarding some offer (bitfury chips) - maybe being in the works.
No details so far - no offers - nada.

Also it seems the image you posted is clearly referencing the general terms of your last batch #3 only - not  the terms of batch #1 nor #2.

Ty for your reply.

2) We've already given a lot of refunds (many of these have been confirmed here on bitcointalk) BEFORE we started production and we offered a lot of upgrades to the next generation, in fact we are still planning if possible to upgrade for free to 400 Gh/s instead 200 Gh/s but is not sure right now.
....

And finally, the general terms of sale are that all sales are final, and this has NEVER changed:

[giorgiomassa]

Everybody please check https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281307.0

Bitmine.ch; would you consider running the units yourself the first month (it will save maybee more then a week from delivery time) for your customers? You have a datacenter right?  This first weeks are essential in getting ROI with these huge diff increases. After that, a week downtime (the shipping) will hurt less.  Or they can take the managed hosting packet.

Just an idea; but it might ease the tension at little cost to you and it is profitable for customers!

Thanks Kj1,

This is a great idea actually, and I like the constructive approach you're having in suggesting a solutions that is acceptable for both our customers and us. 

As Christian told you already, tomorrow we'll take a look to see if we can do that and we'll let you know!

[Kj1]

Thanks Kj1,

This is a great idea actually, and I like the constructive approach you're having in suggesting a solutions that is acceptable for both our customers and us. 

As Christian told you already, tomorrow we'll take a look to see if we can do that and we'll let you know!

Thanks!  I'm not a customer though, I was one of the 30 batch-one'rs but when my mouse hoovered over the pay button I panicked and ran away screaming in twisted agony.  Everybody who ultimatly ordered knew the risks - i pulled out because of them -, they should not complain this much imo.

But, I always found bitmine one of the most trustworthy asic producers because of the open info policy (and verifiable info!) - which is what brought me to that shiny pay button in the first place in a time of scammers. The delay is not your fault and you're doing all in your power to fix that.  It shows that you guys are part of the good guys Thats why everybody here should try to be constructive but sceptic, I believe there are some options left to explore to satisfy everybody.

I just might order a new gen device with you in the future when the asic landscape stabilizes. difficulty can't rise exponential forever right?

Donations appreciated lol (worth a try aint it?).

[tranquille]

So considering that ASIC orders are being cancelled and refunded - what are your plans bitmine? I am asking you for a statement ASAP!
(not about housing - but upgrades to gen II).
We are all in the same boat it seems.

[one4many]

So considering that ASIC orders are being cancelled and refunded - what are your plans bitmine? I am asking your for a statement ASAP!
(not about housing - but upgrades to gen II).
We are all in the same boat it seems.

Tia

"A statement ASAP" .... man you are funny. 

[Min€r]

So considering that ASIC orders are being cancelled and refunded - what are your plans bitmine? I am asking your for a statement ASAP!
(not about housing - but upgrades to gen II).
We are all in the same boat it seems.

Tia

"A statement ASAP" .... man you are funny. 

Yes it would be time. I think that too - now everything went wrong all are silent. Before all spammed the forum full with their GBs & hardware threads.

[one4many]

So considering that ASIC orders are being cancelled and refunded - what are your plans bitmine? I am asking your for a statement ASAP!
(not about housing - but upgrades to gen II).
We are all in the same boat it seems.

Tia

"A statement ASAP" .... man you are funny. 

Yes it would be time. I think that too - now everything went wrong all are silent. Before all spammed the forum full with their GBs & hardware threads.

The feedback I got to my "polite" question about delivery status was: That it looks like that delivery starts next Thursday.
This was not the answer I was hoping for but better than other vendors. At least Bitmine is working hard on a solution for their customers even if it means that they probably make a loss on batch one as well (not just the guys who ordered .. missing out on mining revenue).

BUT WE ALL NEW THE RISKS (and that includes Bitmine).

     one4many

[jimmy3dita]

Guys, reading the Zephir thread it seems that Bitsyncom will offer full refund for chip orders, and they can't disclose when "future batches" will be distributed.

Any official position from Bitmine, with regards to Batch 2 and 3 customers?

[Micky25]

Hello Bitmine, any news?

[gotah]

Hi All,

we are shipping batch 1, tomorrow we will post the news on the website.

[mo_mo]

updates on batch #2?

[fwave]

Hi All,

we are shipping batch 1, tomorrow we will post the news on the website.

Your tomorrow was yesterday

[drico]

Or yesterday of yesterday