Ripples a threat to bitcoin?

[bitcoinBull]

Holy smoke! If I had 900 Bitcoins I would not be holding that in an exchange. I accept your point about exchanges, I hold all my bitcoins in my own wallet. Those are not IOU's

Right, but if you ever want to trade bitcoins on an exchange, you will need to deposit them on that exchange (turning them into IOUs). So all the FUD about ripple and IOUs is a nonsense comparison to a straw-man world where bitcoins are never bought and sold online. Even with ripple, obviously you can still withdraw bitcoin IOUs to your wallet on the blockchain (nobody would use it if you couldn't). They even implemented the "bitcoin bridge" to make that a seamless process.

On another thread someone said the ripple ledger is completely transparent. Is that true? Might revise my opinion a bit if thats the case, and if its built in that it has to be the case.

Yes, its true. For example, rhcGNgtHR7RRNdRgSc1EJuU7jZ23XUbRVx is the address of someone who just paid $226.81 of bitstamp USD for 21,773.76 XRP. Another address is rMLtFZE6ZvLkiRet8Bncs8EZEWQYXyXixN. That guy loves to play RippleFlip, we can see all the payments he's sent to rFLiP... (rippleFlip's address).

However my main doubts are how can you trust a centralised network?  What if the authorities close it down and you lose all your funds? What if Opencoin decides to start inflating XRP? you only have their word that they won't create more. With bitcoin I don't have such doubts.

The 100 billion XRP cap is built into the protocol, there is no way to change without forking the ledger or convincing all the gateways. Your XRP funds are secure in the decentralized ledger (just save protect your secret key like you would protect your bitcoin wallet), the authorities would have to close down every gateway all over the world until there is no place left to buy and sell XRP. Ripple was inspired by the very same aspects we like about bitcoin (except mining, which obviously hasn't gone over well with miners). Even the ledger consensus process is borrowed from the way bitcoin transactions are broadcast among the nodes.

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[afbitcoins]

The 100 billion XRP cap is built into the protocol, there is no way to change without forking the ledger or convincing all the gateways. Your XRP funds are secure in the decentralized ledger (just save protect your secret key like you would protect your bitcoin wallet), the authorities would have to close down every gateway all over the world until there is no place left to buy and sell XRP. Ripple was inspired by the very same aspects we like about bitcoin (except mining, which obviously hasn't gone over well with miners). Even the ledger consensus process is borrowed from the way bitcoin transactions are broadcast among the nodes.

decentralised ledger? I understood ripple uses a single global ledger 

edit. Thanks for the conversation, I'm learning things about ripple i didn't know. 

[bitcoinBull]

The 100 billion XRP cap is built into the protocol, there is no way to change without forking the ledger or convincing all the gateways. Your XRP funds are secure in the decentralized ledger (just save protect your secret key like you would protect your bitcoin wallet), the authorities would have to close down every gateway all over the world until there is no place left to buy and sell XRP. Ripple was inspired by the very same aspects we like about bitcoin (except mining, which obviously hasn't gone over well with miners). Even the ledger consensus process is borrowed from the way bitcoin transactions are broadcast among the nodes.

decentralised ledger? I understood ripple uses a single global ledger.

Yes, a single global decentralized ledger. Just like the bitcoin blockchain - there's only one (unless you count forks), its global, and its decentralized.

[afbitcoins]

The 100 billion XRP cap is built into the protocol, there is no way to change without forking the ledger or convincing all the gateways. Your XRP funds are secure in the decentralized ledger (just save protect your secret key like you would protect your bitcoin wallet), the authorities would have to close down every gateway all over the world until there is no place left to buy and sell XRP. Ripple was inspired by the very same aspects we like about bitcoin (except mining, which obviously hasn't gone over well with miners). Even the ledger consensus process is borrowed from the way bitcoin transactions are broadcast among the nodes.

decentralised ledger? I understood ripple uses a single global ledger.

Yes, a single global decentralized ledger. Just like the bitcoin blockchain - there's only one (unless you count forks), its global, and its decentralized.

which makes me wonder how come its transactions are so much quicker.. ?

[bitcoinBull]

The 100 billion XRP cap is built into the protocol, there is no way to change without forking the ledger or convincing all the gateways. Your XRP funds are secure in the decentralized ledger (just save protect your secret key like you would protect your bitcoin wallet), the authorities would have to close down every gateway all over the world until there is no place left to buy and sell XRP. Ripple was inspired by the very same aspects we like about bitcoin (except mining, which obviously hasn't gone over well with miners). Even the ledger consensus process is borrowed from the way bitcoin transactions are broadcast among the nodes.

decentralised ledger? I understood ripple uses a single global ledger.

Yes, a single global decentralized ledger. Just like the bitcoin blockchain - there's only one (unless you count forks), its global, and its decentralized.

which makes me wonder how come its transactions are so much quicker.. ?

How Ripple Works - The Consensus Process (ADVANCED)

[Coinseeker]

Ripple is now officially open source.   

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=301635.0

[btcgoldsilver]

Going open source and changing the name to ripplelabs seems like a good move on the surface but I think youre better off with honest money, like gold silver and bitcoins. Ripple can keep its debts

[smoothie]

Time will tell. I think not.

[zachcope]

2014 email transcript:

USA Somalian Mo: cousin I have sent the money for your daughter's medication, 2000000 xrp are on there way to you.

Somalian cousin Mohamed : Do you hate me? Why do you send this ripple shit. The Americans are clamping down on Somali debt all around the world - the Indians will charge me twice that for the medications now from a Somali gateway because of the risk. Do you want me to become a pirate?

USA Mo: ha ha I am pulling your leg - I have sent bitcoins

Somali Mo : blessings to you and your family cousin.

2025 email transcript:

Somali Mo:
Cousin I can finally repay your kindness in saving my daughter. As you know business is good in BitSomalia - I have sent you 5000000000 ripples (I am glad they printed more!) for you to buy your Roboheart.

USA Mo: do you look down on me from your mansion? What have I done to deserve this? The Chinese don't want any more crap American ripple debt! Butterflyheartrobolabs Shanghai  will charge me 5 times as much, and only for a preorder! Do you want me to sell my antique unwashed original ripped Hulk Hogan shirt? For that is all I have left in this world. After that my only choice left is to join the NRA Terrorist Group!

Somali Mo: oh cousin life must be hard is your USofA. It is sad all the IT companies left. But fear not I was joking you - 0.1 bitcoin is on its way!

USA Mo: Allah's blessings upon you kind cousin...

[ElectricMucus]

2014 email transcript:

USA Somalian Mo: cousin I have sent the money for your daughter's medication, 2000000 xrp are on there way to you.

Somalian cousin Mohamed : Do you hate me? Why do you send this ripple shit. The Americans are clamping down on Somali debt all around the world - the Indians will charge me twice that for the medications now from a Somali gateway because of the risk. Do you want me to become a pirate?

USA Mo: ha ha I am pulling your leg - I have sent bitcoins

Somali Mo : blessings to you and your family cousin.

2025 email transcript:

Somali Mo:
Cousin I can finally repay your kindness in saving my daughter. As you know business is good in BitSomalia - I have sent you 5000000000 ripples (I am glad they printed more!) for you to buy your Roboheart.

USA Mo: do you look down on me from your mansion? What have I done to deserve this? The Chinese don't want any more crap American ripple debt! Butterflyheartrobolabs Shanghai  will charge me 5 times as much, and only for a preorder! Do you want me to sell my antique unwashed original ripped Hulk Hogan shirt? For that is all I have left in this world. After that my only choice left is to join the NRA Terrorist Group!

Somali Mo: oh cousin life must be hard is your USofA. It is sad all the IT companies left. But fear not I was joking you - 0.1 bitcoin is on its way!

USA Mo: Allah's blessings upon you kind cousin...

I suggest you start bringing that fiction into reality right now!

[b!z]

No, Ripple is designed to complement Bitcoin.

[afbitcoins]

No, Ripple is designed to complement Bitcoin.

Hogwash

[ElectricMucus]

No, Ripple is designed to complement Bitcoin.

Hogwash

Bitstamp uses it instead of codes, if you factor in exchanges it is. Deal with it.

[b!z]

No, Ripple is designed to complement Bitcoin.

Hogwash

It is designed to complement BTC and other currencies, not replace them. How well it complements them is a debatable topic.

[Argwai96]

No, Ripple is designed to complement Bitcoin.

Hogwash

It is designed to complement BTC and other currencies, not replace them. How well it complements them is a debatable topic.

true, but if btc is used as a payment system, then ripple can, to some extent, replace it in that capacity. instead of having btc because it is easy to transfer, people might hold various other currencies and transfer them through ripple without touching btc.

[anu]

I say Ripples will try and eat bitcoins liver but what do you think

Ripple is a way of doing things, not a particular implementation. The idea is not very new - it is more than 5000 years old and surfaced under various names, for example Hawala, Hundi or Angadia, to name just a few modern variants. Yet despite of being about as old as gold as a means of payment, it did not kill gold - quite the opposite! There is a lot of synergy.

So why would Ripple kill Bitcoin? Bitcoin is a commodity, like Gold. Ripple is debt, like Hawala. I see the Ripple principle (not necessarily the company and their implementation) as complementary to Bitcoin. Together, they can truly democratize money. That is why I am writing an unencumbered Ripple implementation:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295930.0

[Coinseeker]

No, Ripple is designed to complement Bitcoin.

Hogwash

It is designed to complement BTC and other currencies, not replace them. How well it complements them is a debatable topic.

true, but if btc is used as a payment system, then ripple can, to some extent, replace it in that capacity. instead of having btc because it is easy to transfer, people might hold various other currencies and transfer them through ripple without touching btc.

So is Bitcoin ready to stand against the world's currencies or is it so flawed and inadequate as a currency, that it will crumble in the face of any adversity?  Is this also the reason there are always, "Is X a threat to Bitcoin" threads and diehard Bitcoiners seek to destroy anything trying to occupy the crypto space?  And should it fall, is Ripple really to blame?

To me, this is what makes Ripple beautiful.  Sure, XRP could compete with any other crypto, because it is crypto.  But the bigger plus here, is the world gets access to choice.  Many Bitcoiners would just like to shove BTC down everyones throats as the ONLY currency moving forward.  Pure silliness.  Put all fiat and all crypto, side by side in a payment network like Ripple and let the people decide what they like.  Maybe they'll choose Bitcoin, maybe they won't.  

My guess is they will always choose a wide variety of currencies, at least for the foreseeable future.  Bitcoin devs should spend more time making Bitcoin the top choice because it's great based on merit, rather than simply trying to hide it's flaws and bad mouthing everything non-Bitcoin.

[afbitcoins]

bitcoins has a payment network doesn't it ? Ripples is attempting to become a monopoly on payment networks and absorb all others. Is it not trying to centralise a decentralised network ?

On topic of gold as money and fiat as debt based money doesnt work, they aren't complimentary. Currently fiat has displaced gold entirely. Eventually sound money will replace debt, and so it goes, on and on 

[Coinseeker]

bitcoins has a payment network doesn't it ? Ripples is attempting to become a monopoly on payment networks and absorb all others. Is it not trying to centralise a decentralised network ?

Bitcoin's payment networks sucks. That's one key reason most people aren't adopting Bitcoin and that's why Bitcoin needs Ripple.  Ripple is simply attempting to federate all payment networks and since Ripple doesn't generate revenue, how could it be deemed a monopoly?  Is HTTP a monopoly?  How about SMTP?    

[zachcope]

Ripple gateways will take various assets - bitcoins, USD, Euros, gold bullion etc and issue IOUs.
These are redeamable across the network.

This could work fine for a bit.
Then the gateways would realise they have all these assets sitting about that don't need to be traded immediately.
Perhaps they invest them, or use them to pay off a few business costs such as AML bonds or business bribes depending on the country. Perhaps they convert the assets to another currency for a bit.
All works well for a bit.

Then boom! some kind of worldwide shock occurs, such as dramatic change in gold price, invasion of a country or even capital controls and account robbing in previously untouchable developed world countries and currencies, such as Cyprus and the Euro.

Suddenly the value of an asset changes fast.

What happens if the gateway is holding its assets in the falling currency but owes locals in a variety of currencies?
What happens if companies have developed off Ripple relationships across borders to settle their on ripple IOUs?
What happens if govt steals the cash or stops it leaving the country?

Suddenly those gateways are subject to a credit run.

This can then diseminate across the whole ripple network as everyone sees what has happened and tries to redeem their IOUs quickly.

It's called a 'Bank Run' and is one of the inevitable consequences of fractional reserve lending in large leveraged economies.

What if the Ripple network becomes 'too big to fail' and the XRPs have to be inflated, punishing all savers and taxpayers to the benefit of the banks / gateways?

Bitcoin has a built in release valve as the currency can be withdrawn to private hands long before the problem spirals out of control in the way a debt based network will.

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If tl;dr:
Ripple is shit.
Bitcoin amazes me every day.