SANDSTORM: - A Collective Investment Vehicle for BTC. -

[Deprived]

Which is exactly what I did. Throughout the early stages I held up to 30% of the fund.

It's what I did as well - paid listing fee myself and have never held less than 40% of the fund (currently hold a bit over half of the main fund and over a third of the 250 BTC-worth of bonds issued).

[furuknap]

Why not just list it at BTCT and get it over with?

.b

Because he needs to sell 5 BTC worth of shares first to pay the listing fee.

That's exactly my point. A 5BTC~$750 listing fee is peanuts if this fund is really going to handle 10'BTC so I don't see why he can't just upfront that payment and add a clause like 'startup expenses to the tune of up to 10BTC including listing fee will be taken out of the dividends' or something like that.

.b

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Because he might not have 5 BTC - he's signing up to PowerCoin giveaways which are worth like $0.02 total.

Can't also invest $10 into a domain name and uses a @hotmail email. Sign me up!

[jmutch]

This isn't a ponzi. I guess I would think the same thing from an outside perspective. Might have to get friends to buy some shares.

Any way don't expect anyone to get involved before its on an exchange

Why not just list it at BTCT and get it over with?

.b

This is definitely key to the success of this project. This is something I plan to do shortly. But I thought it would be wise to put a post up here two gauge the response. I didn't even tell my friends until just now because i knew the response would be bad

I'm not sure how helpful this is, but if your fund is operating on btct.co you can turn on a publicly viewable profile in the account settings.  It will give you a URL where you can send people to verify any btct.co assets your fund is holding.

Cheers.

Cheers burnside, at last something constructive. Transparency may as well start now. This is my trading profile at btct.co:

https://btct.co/api/act?key=dee683c843fc0ff4c39bf9b745d3ec9b0e9617262e656d58f958d4ef30fe9edc
I got 5 "real shares which could be confirmed by Friedcat or Gyom.

And about 8 BTC worth of shares over at bitfunder.

This wealth has been created by mining with a single 5870 last year and through trading and investing those coins. It was first a hobby now i'm serious about it. Just recently sold a BFL preorder for $5000 so i have the profit from that which i consider BTC funds.

This isn't a ponzi.

So how do you reconcile "This isn't a ponzi." with "weekly dividends of at least 1% of the capital gathered from public offerings"?  What am I missing here?

I don't understand the question

This isn't a ponzi. I guess I would think the same thing from an outside perspective. Might have to get friends to buy some shares.

Any way don't expect anyone to get involved before its on an exchange

Why not just list it at BTCT and get it over with?

.b

Because he needs to sell 5 BTC worth of shares first to pay the listing fee.

And that's what's wrong with this (same thing that's been obviously wrong with a bunch of similar attempts to start funds).  There's no sign of any of the profits the issuer claims to have made being invested in the fund.  Which leaves only two possibilities;

1.  The issuer doesn't have any funds.  That would suggest either he doesn't make profit OR he can't manage his own finances.  Neither of which is a good advertisement for running an investment fund.
2.  He's investing his own cash elsewhere.  Which means either a conflict of interest (if he's doing same thing with his own cash in parallel then which do you think will get priority on buys/sells?) or that he believes this isn't as good an invetsment as whatever he's doing with his own funds.

If someone starts a fund I expect to see some of their own cash/assets already in it - preferably verifiable - to show that they a) aren't broke and b) have some skin in the game.

I'm planning to go apply for btct.co. You assume I would charge this to the company. This is a false assumption. Listing on btct is an initial risk which will be solely paid for be me not sandstorm. Right now I have 60 BTC which i would like to allocate to buying 66% of Sandstorm IPO. If i did this wouldn't it feed the idea of a ponzi scheme?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Listing on btct is an initial risk which will be solely paid for be me not sandstorm.

Risk ??

How do you expect this to succeed when you're unwilling to take any kind of 'risk', especially a $70 listing fee? It's an expense if you want to have a shot at getting it listed.

[Deprived]

Listing on btct is an initial risk which will be solely paid for be me not sandstorm.

Risk ??

How do you expect this to succeed when you're unwilling to take any kind of 'risk', especially a $70 listing fee? It's an expense if you want to have a shot at getting it listed.

You misread what he said.  He said he WOULD pay the listing fee himself.

[danieldaniel]

Listing on btct is an initial risk which will be solely paid for be me not sandstorm.

Risk ??

How do you expect this to succeed when you're unwilling to take any kind of 'risk', especially a $70 listing fee? It's an expense if you want to have a shot at getting it listed.

I'm not supporting this, but he said that he would pay for it.  Also, it's more like ~$600, not $70.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Oh, I take that back, my apologies. And derp math, I was thinking in terms of when I listed my asset

[jmutch]

Which is exactly what I did. Throughout the early stages I held up to 30% of the fund.

It's what I did as well - paid listing fee myself and have never held less than 40% of the fund (currently hold a bit over half of the main fund and over a third of the 250 BTC-worth of bonds issued).

Is this kind of self buying not looked down upon?

Listing on btct is an initial risk which will be solely paid for be me not sandstorm.

Risk ??

How do you expect this to succeed when you're unwilling to take any kind of 'risk', especially a $70 listing fee? It's an expense if you want to have a shot at getting it listed.

This 5BTC fee is nothing to me in terms of this project. It is a small expense for something I am passionate about.

I was planning on leaving this post for a week before applying to btct.co to see what people had to say.

Would it show more integrity to apply now?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

It's a fund, no problems with buying it yourself. Didn't you say that you want to buy 66% of your IPO?

To be frank, you're really not going to get approved if you apply now.

[Deprived]

Which is exactly what I did. Throughout the early stages I held up to 30% of the fund.

It's what I did as well - paid listing fee myself and have never held less than 40% of the fund (currently hold a bit over half of the main fund and over a third of the 250 BTC-worth of bonds issued).

Is this kind of self buying not looked down upon?

Why would it be looked down upon?  I'm far more concerned if I see someone selling something that they won't put their own money into.  And, as I mentioned earlier, there's a potential conflict of interest if you manage your own investments seperately from an investment fund you run.  If you see some bargain shares who do you buy them for - yourself or your fund?  How are your investors meant to have confidence that you'll put their interest first?

The answer to solve the issue of investor confidence largely IS to put your own money in the fund.  Then investors KNOW you'll largely act in their interest - as it's also YOUR interest.

Where it would get out of line would be if you bought the majority of voting shares in a company you ran and then forced through motions against the interests of other investors.  But that shouldn't be allowed even if it wasn't your own company (in RL there are means in place to act against controlling interests who vote or otherwise act in a manner detrimental to the company/minority shareholders for their own personal benefit).

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Or voting with unsold shares, like what we had with NYAN.

[jmutch]

It's a fund, no problems with buying it yourself. Didn't you say that you want to buy 66% of your IPO?

To be frank, you're really not going to get approved if you apply now.

This is good news to me that it's not looked down upon. Considerer 40000 shares sold to myself. 

Yeah thanks for the honest opinion on the application. Noted, this is why want to have a period away from there, to gain some trust.

Anyone want to humour me and become the second shareholder. I mean they are .001BTC each.

Or voting with unsold shares, like what we had with NYAN.

This will never happen.

[burnside]

Cheers burnside, at last something constructive. Transparency may as well start now. This is my trading profile at btct.co:

https://btct.co/api/act?key=xxx
I got 5 "real shares which could be confirmed by Friedcat or Gyom.

That's probably not the one you want to use.

Hit the "Settings" tab on the Account page, there's an option there "Public Portfolio".  If you turn that on, then on the "Account Information" page it will give you a URL to share out.

Cheers.

[furuknap]

Anyone want to humour me and become the second shareholder. I mean they are .001BTC each.

I would like to see more information first, and preferably at least an application on BTCT.

For example, I can't really determine if this is a fund, bond, or company. You call it a company but pay dividends like it's a bond and hold other assets like it's a fund.

Ignoring the possibility of a ponzi, it does seem a bit chaotic to me. I would like to know clearly what your portfolio and income will be beyond the vague 'BTC related' description you have now. Am I investing in mining? Gambling? Bakeries in Mexico? It is very difficult to understand what my benefits would be, beyond handing over my portfolio to you for you to use however you feel like (as long as it's related to BTC somehow).

.b

[jmutch]

Cheers burnside, at last something constructive. Transparency may as well start now. This is my trading profile at btct.co:

https://btct.co/api/act?key=xxx
I got 5 "real shares which could be confirmed by Friedcat or Gyom.

That's probably not the one you want to use.

Hit the "Settings" tab on the Account page, there's an option there "Public Portfolio".  If you turn that on, then on the "Account Information" page it will give you a URL to share out.

Cheers.

Thanks again burnside,
https://btct.co/portfolio/gLk7Eg==

[jmutch]

Anyone want to humour me and become the second shareholder. I mean they are .001BTC each.

I would like to see more information first, and preferably at least an application on BTCT.

For example, I can't really determine if this is a fund, bond, or company. You call it a company but pay dividends like it's a bond and hold other assets like it's a fund.

Ignoring the possibility of a ponzi, it does seem a bit chaotic to me. I would like to know clearly what your portfolio and income will be beyond the vague 'BTC related' description you have now. Am I investing in mining? Gambling? Bakeries in Mexico? It is very difficult to understand what my benefits would be, beyond handing over my portfolio to you for you to use however you feel like (as long as it's related to BTC somehow).

.b

This is fair enough. At this early stage 90% of profit is coming from intra-week security trading based around fluctuation due to dividend releases. A small amount of profit is from trading BTC against the USD.

This wont be sustainable with a larger capital base and other systems will be implemented. i.e. buying mining hardware in bulk and selling to the Australian market.

These are only some possible ideas. The world of BTC is obviously dynamic and I intend to be ahead of trends.

[furuknap]

These are only some possible ideas. The world of BTC is obviously dynamic and I intend to be ahead of trends.

I know what you're saying because you've already said it. The issue I have is that this is too vague. 'Whatever comes up' is not a sound investment strategy and with zero credibility or track record, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that you'll be able to better judge what those upcoming things are worth.

In short, stick to an investment profile so investors know what they are buying. 'Anything I can find' isn't a strategy, it is a lottery.

.b

PS: I understand you will make some form of judgement on new opportunities, but like I mentioned, you have no credibility to prove that you are better at making those judgements than anyone else.

[jmutch]

These are only some possible ideas. The world of BTC is obviously dynamic and I intend to be ahead of trends.

I know what you're saying because you've already said it. The issue I have is that this is too vague. 'Whatever comes up' is not a sound investment strategy and with zero credibility or track record, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that you'll be able to better judge what those upcoming things are worth.

In short, stick to an investment profile so investors know what they are buying. 'Anything I can find' isn't a strategy, it is a lottery.

.b

PS: I understand you will make some form of judgement on new opportunities, but like I mentioned, you have no credibility to prove that you are better at making those judgements than anyone else.

Thanks furknap, This is very constructive.

It's something i will have a think about. Percentages of the fund could be dedicated to different activities. I definitely see benefits to a more structured approach. it could also limit a few opportunities though... leave it with me. Thanks again.

I look forward to responding to more ideas, critiques, and opinions in the morning. night

[jmutch]

Application submitted to btct.co!

Wish me luck!