65 nm Chips - [BFL ACCEPTED 100% ESCROW by John K.] - Group Buy #1 - Kernel32

[burnin]

I would start work on a custom BFL-chip board once i'm done with the Avalon development.
(I am sure can recycle some design aspects which should speed things up)
But It would need encouraging news from them that indicate that we can really expect them to deliver + documentation on the chips.

[trepex]

Is it just me, that did the math and wondered about the results?

Grade A: 16 Engines - $97/chip  =  6.0625 $ / engine
Grade B: 15 Engines - $93/chip  =  6.2000 $ / engine
Grade C: 14 Engines - $89/chip  =  6.3571 $ / engine

So no one would "order" the Grade B/C chips. I would expect those chips to be cheaper (not absolute, but per engine) so that they can still be sold.

Ralf

[tom_o]

Is it just me, that did the math and wondered about the results?

Grade A: 16 Engines - $97/chip  =  6.0625 $ / engine
Grade B: 15 Engines - $93/chip  =  6.2000 $ / engine
Grade C: 14 Engines - $89/chip  =  6.3571 $ / engine

So no one would "order" the Grade B/C chips. I would expect those chips to be cheaper (not absolute, but per engine) so that they can still be sold.

Ralf

The silicone and dev costs are the same, but yeah odd results. nice to get binned parts though whereas Avalon apparently 5% are DOA.

[nave]

So I haven't been following all of the BFL drama over the past however long, but I have another concern that might be of note to this group buy.

We know that they have actual chips that work, they've shipped (a few) Jalapenos. But from what I've seen of the tear down of these devices they have 2 working chips on a board designed to house 8 chips, with a pretty beefy heatsink and fan on those two chips. They've stated they missed their power numbers, and thereby the chips run hotter than they intended. Is it possible (me not being much more than a hardware layman) that these chips run too hot for any reasonable cluster size on a PCB?

If so, then BFL could ship the chips, fully complying with the terms of the group buy, and have the money released from escrow, only to have the buyers holding chips that overheat constantly and have to be throttled or have fewer chips placed per board than intended. I think it was a surprise to a lot of people (myself included) that Josh agreed to the full escrow deal. Maybe this is why? They have a ton of chips and can only use a few per board? It would only make sense to sell them and get all the money they could out of their (our) investment at that point.

[k9quaint]

So I haven't been following all of the BFL drama over the past however long, but I have another concern that might be of note to this group buy.

We know that they have actual chips that work, they've shipped (a few) Jalapenos. But from what I've seen of the tear down of these devices they have 2 working chips on a board designed to house 8 chips, with a pretty beefy heatsink and fan on those two chips. They've stated they missed their power numbers, and thereby the chips run hotter than they intended. Is it possible (me not being much more than a hardware layman) that these chips run too hot for any reasonable cluster size on a PCB?

If so, then BFL could ship the chips, fully complying with the terms of the group buy, and have the money released from escrow, only to have the buyers holding chips that overheat constantly and have to be throttled or have fewer chips placed per board than intended. I think it was a surprise to a lot of people (myself included) that Josh agreed to the full escrow deal. Maybe this is why? They have a ton of chips and can only use a few per board? It would only make sense to sell them and get all the money they could out of their (our) investment at that point.

That would certainly explain why they have not released the Singles or Mini-rig prototypes. Those are supposed to be densely populated boards. Perhaps the chips cannot be kept cool. Very hard to say until they release specs and samples.

[Rampion]

Guys, what's the need to hurt yourself? Is greed so blinding, really?

Let it go. We got in the arse with BFL. We suffered, and now we accept we will never get our Singles, Mini Singles and Mini Rigs.

Don't add insult to the injury. So now they sell their chips in order for the community to find out how to design units from them? And you BUY?

Seriously guys. Have a little bit of self-respect at least.

[philips]

Update:

Chips are sold in mixed grade lots.

https://products.butterflylabs.com/65nm-asic-bitcoin-mining-chip.html

[ThatBitcoinGuy]

...and just like the cans of Planter's mixed nuts, there ain't gonna be many pecans.

[newmars]

why they plan to sell mixed grade lots?

[MrTeal]

why they plan to sell mixed grade lots?

Because with their previous pricing and allowing people to pick their grades, they would never sell anything but grade A chips. Now they don't have to worry about demand for one type being higher than the others.

[nave]

So I haven't been following all of the BFL drama over the past however long, but I have another concern that might be of note to this group buy.

We know that they have actual chips that work, they've shipped (a few) Jalapenos. But from what I've seen of the tear down of these devices they have 2 working chips on a board designed to house 8 chips, with a pretty beefy heatsink and fan on those two chips. They've stated they missed their power numbers, and thereby the chips run hotter than they intended. Is it possible (me not being much more than a hardware layman) that these chips run too hot for any reasonable cluster size on a PCB?

If so, then BFL could ship the chips, fully complying with the terms of the group buy, and have the money released from escrow, only to have the buyers holding chips that overheat constantly and have to be throttled or have fewer chips placed per board than intended. I think it was a surprise to a lot of people (myself included) that Josh agreed to the full escrow deal. Maybe this is why? They have a ton of chips and can only use a few per board? It would only make sense to sell them and get all the money they could out of their (our) investment at that point.

That would certainly explain why they have not released the Singles or Mini-rig prototypes. Those are supposed to be densely populated boards. Perhaps the chips cannot be kept cool. Very hard to say until they release specs and samples.

Exactly. I might suggest to the group buy that previous to the escrow being released they are able to test a fully populated board with sample chips that are running at full speed and on all cores in order to be able to see how much heat they're putting out and work out a suitable cooling solution if one exists.

[k9quaint]

Guys, what's the need to hurt yourself? Is greed so blinding, really?

Let it go. We got in the arse with BFL. We suffered, and now we accept we will never get our Singles, Mini Singles and Mini Rigs.

Don't add insult to the injury. So now they sell their chips in order for the community to find out how to design units from them? And you BUY?

Seriously guys. Have a little bit of self-respect at least.

Nobody has bought anything yet. AFAIK the group buy is not open. This is just an exploratory thread to see if BFL can offer (and keep to) terms that would entice the community to buy their chips.

[newmars]

will the chips in the mixed lots be specifically labeled with "A", "B", etc?

why they plan to sell mixed grade lots?

Because with their previous pricing and allowing people to pick their grades, they would never sell anything but grade A chips. Now they don't have to worry about demand for one type being higher than the others.

[Xian01]

will the chips in the mixed lots be specifically labeled with "A", "B", etc?

 I believe a certain "Forrest Gump" quote about a box of chocolates is apropos about now.

[MrTeal]

will the chips in the mixed lots be specifically labeled with "A", "B", etc?

why they plan to sell mixed grade lots?

Because with their previous pricing and allowing people to pick their grades, they would never sell anything but grade A chips. Now they don't have to worry about demand for one type being higher than the others.

No. Each chip will be labeled with a custom code and a set of clues, leading the purchaser through a set of puzzles each more devious than the last. It is only when you've gone through every challenge and survived an epic plot twist that the final grade will be revealed.

[k9quaint]

will the chips in the mixed lots be specifically labeled with "A", "B", etc?

why they plan to sell mixed grade lots?

Because with their previous pricing and allowing people to pick their grades, they would never sell anything but grade A chips. Now they don't have to worry about demand for one type being higher than the others.

No. Each chip will be labeled with a custom code and a set of clues, leading the purchaser through a set of puzzles each more devious than the last. It is only when you've gone through every challenge and survived an epic plot twist that the final grade will be revealed.

And there is a cake.

[Kernel32]

I would start work on a custom BFL-chip board once i'm done with the Avalon development.
(I am sure can recycle some design aspects which should speed things up)
But It would need encouraging news from them that indicate that we can really expect them to deliver + documentation on the chips.

Thank you burnin very much for taking the time.

We have now two lead community developers - burnin and Chris (Klondike) - to consider BFL chip board. Under some conditions of course. We may have the power to make this happen. (Or not.)

...........
Seriously guys. Have a little bit of self-respect at least.

We are the first to actually negotiate with BFL. That indicates BTC community is not a bunch of idiots to throw money at them with no guarantees at all. I see a lot of self-respect in that.

In business world, you don't make deals according to your feelings. You take advantage of the best available on the market and take maximal possible precautions. I'm not responsible for their previous costumers that took lesser precautions.

The truth is BFL may have the best chip technology - they invested a lot of money in their chip (maybe too much), no doubt at all.

They can't handle the board manufacturing and that's where community can take over and profit. That is a business opportunity to me.

........ and now we accept we will never get our Singles, Mini Singles and Mini Rigs.

Don't accept it and get your money and self-respect back. You kind of support what BFL does by not making so.

Another scam
 

Seriously man, did you read any part of this thread? Can you explain why do you think this is a scam 67152398 ?

It's a good thing to be careful, but c'mon we have John (not the same person as Josh ) .

BFL itself is the scam, get real.

Zero products shipped from the revised BitForce line (Jalepenos are older and no longer offered, Little SC was supposed to replace it, none have shipped at all in over one year)

Now offering chips that are just as much vaporware as their ghost machines

And they are apparently wasting time on their own charity thing?

BFL and all of their cronies earned a scammer tag here, that should be enough to kill this thread right here and now.

C'mon man. BFL does not manufacture the chip. You really think they are producing 65 nm chips by themselves? They have only licence to resell it. With 100% escrow I don't see any problem in that.

I'm not willing to (group)buy any boards/devices made at BFL.

So I haven't been following all of the BFL drama over the past however long, but I have another concern that might be of note to this group buy.

We know that they have actual chips that work, they've shipped (a few) Jalapenos. But from what I've seen of the tear down of these devices they have 2 working chips on a board designed to house 8 chips, with a pretty beefy heatsink and fan on those two chips. They've stated they missed their power numbers, and thereby the chips run hotter than they intended. Is it possible (me not being much more than a hardware layman) that these chips run too hot for any reasonable cluster size on a PCB?

If so, then BFL could ship the chips, fully complying with the terms of the group buy, and have the money released from escrow, only to have the buyers holding chips that overheat constantly and have to be throttled or have fewer chips placed per board than intended. I think it was a surprise to a lot of people (myself included) that Josh agreed to the full escrow deal. Maybe this is why? They have a ton of chips and can only use a few per board? It would only make sense to sell them and get all the money they could out of their (our) investment at that point.

That would certainly explain why they have not released the Singles or Mini-rig prototypes. Those are supposed to be densely populated boards. Perhaps the chips cannot be kept cool. Very hard to say until they release specs and samples.

Exactly. I might suggest to the group buy that previous to the escrow being released they are able to test a fully populated board with sample chips that are running at full speed and on all cores in order to be able to see how much heat they're putting out and work out a suitable cooling solution if one exists.

Fisrt of all, love your avatar nave. Secondly, this is a fruitful discussion I was hoping for to see here. Thank you guys (and also to others discussing and expressing support).

It seems the 65 nm chips are generating a lot more heat, than BFL expected. Where being unable to put 8pcs of 4 GH/s chips on few square inch board may discard some cute-black-box designs, for most of BTC miners the size of the board is not as crucial. (Remember GPU rigs?) They are not to keep on the desk anyways. Community developers need to reestablish what "fully populated board" means. I'm pretty sure the hash/board-square-inch  ratio would be still noticeably better than 110 nm Avalon's. My best guess is twice (as 65 nm chip consumes twice less power).

Is anyone here able to measure his Jalapeno heat parameters? For example putting it into polystyrene box and measuring temperature over time. Maybe start with low temperature and don't go too high. Remember, it was manufactured by BFL.

[Tigggger]

They can't handle the board manufacturing and that's where community can take over and profit. That is a business opportunity to me.

I thought it was more board design problems than getting them made, but dont want to troll so...

Almost all of the talk in burnin and bkk's threads is over my head but they seem like very smart people, who I would have confidence in to get them working and in production fairly quickly.

That presents the problem, avalon can sell chips because they aren't making any more hardware. If BFL release all the details needed and the guys above get a board working it would surely decimate BFL's order queue.

So what is their reasoning ?

It seems the 65 nm chips are generating a lot more heat, than BFL expected. Where being unable to put 8pcs of 4 GH/s chips on few square inch board may discard some cute-black-box designs, for most of BTC miners the size of the board is not as crucial. (Remember GPU rigs?) They are not to keep on the desk anyways.

I concur, they seem to be spending more time and money trying to get them into cases because they already bought them instead of just saying. Look we messed up, power and heat is more than we expected so now the board is 2/3/4 times as big and it needs a new case, or comes with 2 pieces of plywood to mount it on.  Whilst looking nice is good I suspect most people would sacrifice that to get it quicker

[Kernel32]

I thought it was more board design problems than getting them made, but dont want to troll so...

You are most likely right. Manufacturing should be easy while having a good design.

Almost all of the talk in burnin and bkk's threads is over my head but they seem like very smart people, who I would have confidence in to get them working and in production fairly quickly.

That presents the problem, avalon can sell chips because they aren't making any more hardware. If BFL release all the details needed and the guys above get a board working it would surely decimate BFL's order queue.

So what is their reasoning ?

...........

I think they are sick of the design problems. I truly believe they did not picture nor intended this to happen.

The easy solution to make somebody else overtake board design and convert most of the pre-orders to chip sales seems probably very appealing to BFL right now.

They could come up with a motivation instrument for pre-order costumers. For example chip discount. That could make the magic happen, giving the fact those costumers are still interested in mining by not getting refunded already.

Butterflies would most likely also manufacture devices based on community board design. Or move to Bahamas finally. Who knows.

Please note, that most of this is only my wild speculation.

[Tigggger]

The easy solution to make somebody else overtake board design and convert most of the pre-orders to chip sales seems probably very appealing to BFL right now.

Funnily enough in the very first post in this forum saying they were selling chips, I said something like "Maybe it's a cunning ploy to get BKK to design a board that actually works"

They could come up with a motivation instrument for pre-order costumers. For example chip discount. That could make the magic happen, giving the fact those costumers are still interested in mining by not getting refunded already

Please note, that most of this is only my wild speculation.

Possibly, my own speculation given their history is that they saw the huge amount of avalon chip orders and thought it was an easy to way to raise large amounts of needed cash.

Unforunately for them I don't think either of these options is going to happen, they've been telling too many lies for too long for large numbers of people to spend anything with them.  BFL's window is closing.

Anyway, good luck with the group buy