65 nm Chips - [BFL ACCEPTED 100% ESCROW by John K.] - Group Buy #1 - Kernel32

[josiasrdz]

I don't see the problem with this group buy...best case scenario we get miners that are superior to avalons 100 days from now, worst case scenario we get our money back

[mezzomix]

Oh, I remember a story about a 1000 BTC charity bet and BFL founding their own "charity". Guys, buy those chips from BFL and we will see in 100 days if BFL found a way to weasel out of the deal and keep your money.

[CtmanGer]

Who would buid a miner out of that chips? So for 40gh it would be 1000 $ plus 1000-2000 $ or even more?

[PuertoLibre]

I'd be interested in around 1,000 chips towards the group buy.


https://products.butterflylabs.com/65nm-asic-bitcoin-mining-chip.html

It looks like they are for sale now. $75/each (Much better price) What is the status of this thread?

I did hear that prior to the price change they would be giving discounts based on quantity, hopefully this translates into even better prices for the group buy.

LoL!

They aren't selling at all compared to the Avalon chips which have a known working implementation.

Seems they slashed the price by [very roughly] ~25% to try to lull people into buying chips without the board....Yikes...

Reeks of desperation.

The old offer:

Original message by Josh:

Butterfly Labs will begin selling bulk chips to individuals and companies starting in June, 2013. Chip delivery schedule is approximately 100 days through end packaging once your order is placed. We will be providing reference documentation, reference design/schematics, and foundry receipt/documentation.

Grade A chips have 16 engines and will do 250 MHz comfortably, equating to 4 GH/s per chip.

Chips will be graded and priced as follows:

Grade A: 16 Engines - $97/chip
Grade B: 15 Engines - $93/chip
Grade C: 14 Engines - $89/chip

Grade D: 13 Engines or less - $83/chip

Our chips will be provided in minimum lots of 100 with the following price structure:

100 - 999 chips - Regular Price
1000 - 9999 chips - 5% discount
10,000 - 99,999 chips - 10% discount
100,000 or more - 20% discount

Chip orders will require 50% down and 50% upon order delivery. Payment can be made via BTC (preferred) or bank wire.

Advantages of BFL chips:

1/2 the power usage per GH as the closest competitor
1/10th the silicon area per GH as the closest competitor (Very high performance density)
You can use off the shelf heat sinks depending on your chip layout due to FCBGA package vs custom underside heat sinks as required on some QFN packages. You don't have to design and manufacture heat sinks!
Proven design currently operating in the field and ready to go.

I noticed on their site it now reads that they are selling mixed lots...?

Does this mean they are no longer sorting out the Grade A's from the D's or what?

Is this going to be like an easter egg hunt where one has to figure out what chips are grade A's? Also read yesterday that they want the buyers to create their own firmware. Kind of a tall task! (Can't they just give the board makers their own reference firmware(s)?)

If they keep making it harder and harder to turn those chips into actual mining rigs they might as well keep slashing the damn prices! Gonna need to pay a whole development team just to figure it all out.

[hax0red]

Encased in a mineral oil bath?

To move the heat away from the chip,:
One should use copper. Copper has far higher thermal conductivity than mineral oil (like 50x). So, more chips will need more copper sinks in contact with them.
To move the heat away from the copper:
If you go with water blocks (or mineral oil blocks), then you can use less copper and move the heat away from the copper faster with water (or oil). I don't think you will save money or power consumption that way since the plumbing adds cost and complexity. A bit more copper with some fans for each cluster of 2 chips should be sufficient.

I would simply buy a Corsair H60 or H110 and use thermal adhesive to mount the block once I was satisfied it could do the job. I mounted a H55 to my 7870 using zip ties and it never went above 57C at 1225mhz  core (tahiti chipped version) so I already have experience with conditions that aren't exactly ideal and it worked out just like my custom water loops have and honestly took far less time but once the adhesive is used and sets there is no going back.

An H110 would almost certainly do the job, but that is an extra $130 per chip cluster. That cooling expense drops BFL's price/performance below Avalon's.
Plus, scaling chip clusters would be hard with all the extra plumbing required.

 True but if you can get away with an H50-60 sized cooler they can be had at $40-50 for restocked/refurbished units as well as the Antec 620s. Consider that with possibility of overclocking and you may have potential worth looking at which IMO gives reason for second thought as far as  Avalon vs BFL processors once widely available. But for now I would stick with a company that delivers more consistently.

[Rampion]

So... The chips will be shipped and hashing before any non-Jalapeño customer receives their unit, right?

Cool.

[Lucko]

Interested. I can even help you with EU build boards... Probably also some R&D making batter boards. Plans just need CE markings... But I'm limited in a amount of money for this.

[Kernel32]

We received BFL reaction regarding sample chips request and hash test of produced chips before escrow release possibilities.

I can provide you with sample chips prior to the chip purchase, yes. It would obviously be a limited number of chips, but we can certainly spare a few of course.

How are you proposing to do the random chip selection hash test prior to release?  In principal I don't have a problem with this, however there are some practical pitfalls here, chiefly what if you don't have boards or a test rig ready to do a proper test of the chips, do we then wait until you are ready?  

I hope to have the reference documentation done this week.  We are pretty time crunched getting the singles and MR ready to ship, which should also start this week.  Once that starts rolling we can focus more on the technical documents.  

By now, I'm sure you've seen the new pricing and the fact that the chips will be shipped as a mixed lot, so it probably renders your final question invalid.  If not, let me know.

I'm glad BFL agreed on shipping 65 nm chip samples to community mining board devs.

If developers get chips and quality documentation (*might* be even this week), they would be able to estimate board design/prototyping period(/feasibility). That is crucial info to have before actually opening the group buy.

Sample chips distribution is my top priority right now.

BFL also agrees on HASH test prior to escrow release. I would like them to make few Short Boards (Jalapenos) available for testing. (If there is no 65 nm community mining board at hand already.)

Mixed lot structure:
- 60% Grade A (16 engines - equals to 4.00 GH/s)
- 20% Grade B (15 engines - equals to 3.75 GH/s)
- 15% Grade C (14 engines - equals to 3.50 GH/s)
- 5% Grade D (no less than 12 engines - equals to no less than 3.00 GH/s)

Clock rate (speed) of engines is between 250 and 294 mhz. That means about +/- 7,5% individual hash rate fluctuations. Price for 60/20/15/5 quality lot is $75/chip.

I have yet to find out whether Grade of the chip is known prior to usage (Group Buyers would be compensated for buying lower quality chips) or not (lottery style).

I get quite a lot of PM's of people asking how to join the Group Buy. Please notice, we are still in preparation phase. Making sure our deal with BFL is safe and sweet.

Some also asked about shipping/VAT, whether this is a US/EU/Asia based group. Well, this is international group. All of the chips will be sent from warehouse in California directly to costumers/chosen board manufacturers with possibility of merged shipment to EU.

Thank you so far. I'll keep you posted.

[delaria]

i have a slight interest for about 500 chips. Still thinking about it though.

[josiasrdz]

are you going to sent half of the sample chips to burnin and the other half to bkkcoins?

[Hiroaki]

SCAM SCAM SCAM

First they should ship all the other units !!!
Unbelievable how they treat the whole bitcoin community !!!!!

I m surprised that they are not scared of their own customers

[TheSwede75]

I have to say that I am almost blown away by the amount of butthurt! Yes, we get it. You haven't gotten your BFL miners yet, cry cry. The chips are a PROVEN design, delivered by GLOBAL FOUNDRIES! BFL and their development delays have nothing to do with it. Jeez, you cry all over the forum, how about sticking to one of the other 1000 threads about BFL orders?

[josiasrdz]

I have to say that I am almost blown away by the amount of butthurt! Yes, we get it. You haven't gotten your BFL miners yet, cry cry. The chips are a PROVEN design, delivered by GLOBAL FOUNDRIES! BFL and their development delays have nothing to do with it. Jeez, you cry all over the forum, how about sticking to one of the other 1000 threads about BFL orders?

This^^ bfl may be incompetent, but the combination of global foundries, burning and bkkcoins is not bfl is just going to be the middlemen between global foundries and the persons making the boards

[k9quaint]

I have to say that I am almost blown away by the amount of butthurt! Yes, we get it. You haven't gotten your BFL miners yet, cry cry. The chips are a PROVEN design, delivered by GLOBAL FOUNDRIES! BFL and their development delays have nothing to do with it. Jeez, you cry all over the forum, how about sticking to one of the other 1000 threads about BFL orders?

Global foundries can reliably make chips.
If you could order the chip direct from GF without going through BFL, then you would have no worries (other than the chip being sensitive to heat damage due to poor design, or something weird like that). Since BFL is involved, delays and broken promises are to be expected given BFL's track record. The exact form those delays will manifest as cannot be predicted.

It would be a delight for once to listen to BFL say "Two more weeks! (TM)" and have it arrive in less than 14 days.

[Abdussamad]

I don't see the problem with this group buy...best case scenario we get miners that are superior to avalons 100 days from now, worst case scenario we get our money back

Worst case you've locked up your money for 3+ months and have to pay John's escrow fees.

[Abdussamad]

@Kernel32 who are you? You have few posts and you only joined in April this year. Why should anyone trust you?

[k9quaint]

I don't see the problem with this group buy...best case scenario we get miners that are superior to avalons 100 days from now, worst case scenario we get our money back

Worst case you've locked up your money for 3+ months and have to pay John's escrow fees.

Worst case is BFL's chips MTBF is 3 months.
Second worse case is the chip lot distribution much worse than BFL claims (I'd rather pay $90 for a known product than $75 and trust BFL's math
Third worst case is the community also has trouble getting boards to work causing delays (BFL was not incompetent, the chips are finicky and not a slam dunk to support on a board)
Fourth worst case is KNCMiner delivers early with better bang for the buck and hashrate goes through the roof.
Fifth worst case, Tebow starts at QB for the patriots.

[PuertoLibre]

@Kernel32 who are you? You have few posts and you only joined in April this year. Why should anyone trust you?

Because unlike every other BFL chip thread, he (kernel32) has done everything perfectly right.

There is no possibility of losing your money up until the chips arriving. Whether or not Kernel32 finds the developers to turn those chips into boards is the only risk.

I cannot more highly recommend this (and only this) particular group buy.

If you want guarantees on the chips, this is the place to conduct business.

[PuertoLibre]

@ Kernel32

Could you get in contact with BFL and clarify this point? I tried to get the answer through theswede but he didn't seem to have any idea about it.

=======Reposted======

2. Ordering is from Global Foundries that also handle delivery

Will the tracking information come straight from the packaging facility or from BFL offices?

If you don't know, could you find out?

I am worried that BFL is going to send us the defunct lot they are using right now instead of the brand new lot that will be baked at the Fab. I don't want yesterdays revision that has caused so many problems (let them deal with those). I want the latest revision fresh from the Fab.

======reposted======

[Unacceptable]

If they come straight from the "fab" won't they still need to be "bumped" & "packaged"??

So you need to send them to another place or two........................or will the "fab" handle this??