[ANN] Tangible Cryptography suspends Bitcoin related transaction.

[justusranvier]

That is why we need collective action to begin bitcoin advocacy or to form a self regulating with Bitcoin and Financial industry professionals to interface with regulators and legislators to educate them about the benefits of the protocol.

Negotiating with gangsters has a long history of counterproductive results.

It's more productive in the long run to bypass and out-innovate the regulators instead of getting stuck in the tarpit of working with them.

[BCB]

 justusranvier

Unfortunately this is the regulatory landscape in which we find ourselves today.

And the business in the link you provided is, in my opinion, and according to my research and the attorneys, Money Transmitter Professionals and Anti-Money Laundering Compliance professionals I've spoken with is operating illegally and runs the risk not only of being shut down but also of criminal prosecution.

But then we are all free to make choices.

PS

You should read the story of E-Gold.  It is easy to make baseless claims and anonymously thump your chest at the government on an internet form and ignore regulation and your responsibilities as a money service business.  You should ask Douglas Jackson how that worked out for him.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/e-gold/

[justusranvier]

And the business in the link you provided is, in my opinion, and according to my research and the attorneys, Money Transmitter Professionals and Anti-Money Laundering Compliance professionals I've spoken with is operating illegally and runs the risk not only of being shut down but also of criminal prosecution.

That's how we know they are doing something worthwhile.

[Pale Phoenix]

And the business in the link you provided is, in my opinion, and according to my research and the attorneys, Money Transmitter Professionals and Anti-Money Laundering Compliance professionals I've spoken with is operating illegally and runs the risk not only of being shut down but also of criminal prosecution.

I know nothing of that business other than what I've read in the referenced thread, but it appears to me that they are providing a listing and escrow service only and not handling or transferring any U.S. dollars. I've also researched this issue quite heavily and I don't see how that activity fits into any of the definitions of "money transmitter" enumerated in the FinCen guidance.

Would you mind sharing which part of the guidance / regulations you believe apply to this service?

[BCB]

And the business in the link you provided is, in my opinion, and according to my research and the attorneys, Money Transmitter Professionals and Anti-Money Laundering Compliance professionals I've spoken with is operating illegally and runs the risk not only of being shut down but also of criminal prosecution.

I know nothing of that business other than what I've read in the referenced thread, but it appears to me that they are providing a listing and escrow service only and not handling or transferring any U.S. dollars. I've also researched this issue quite heavily and I don't see how that activity fits into any of the definitions of "money transmitter" enumerated in the FinCen guidance.

Would you mind sharing which part of the guidance / regulations you believe apply to this service?

Sure.  But  maybe we should start another thread.  I think we've hijacked TC's enough.

[Lohoris]

Sure.  But  maybe we should start another thread.  I think we've hijacked TC's enough.

Ok but link it here please.

[justusranvier]

It took forever to dig up this post, and I was starting to wonder if I was misremembering having written it:

Future Bitcoin services need to be run as if they are illegal enterprises, like Silk Road, even if what they are doing is apparently legal.

Why:

• Laws change.
• Regulations are vague and open-ended, and it's probably impossible to operate a business without accidentally violating one.
• Even if you do manage to operate without violating any rule law enforcement agencies do not always limit themselves to the letter of the law when deciding to begin an enforcement action.
• Governments are not the only threats to a successful business. Non-governmental organized crime is almost equally capable of extortion.

The solution is to run all services in the darknet, not tied to any physical location or legal jurisdiction, and without any explicit connection to a real-life identity.

[BCB]

It took forever to dig up this post, and I was starting to wonder if I was misremembering having written it:

Future Bitcoin services need to be run as if they are illegal enterprises, like Silk Road, even if what they are doing is apparently legal.

Why:

• Laws change.
• Regulations are vague and open-ended, and it's probably impossible to operate a business without accidentally violating one.
• Even if you do manage to operate without violating any rule law enforcement agencies do not always limit themselves to the letter of the law when deciding to begin an enforcement action.
• Governments are not the only threats to a successful business. Non-governmental organized crime is almost equally capable of extortion.

The solution is to run all services in the darknet, not tied to any physical location or legal jurisdiction, and without any explicit connection to a real-life identity.

I don't mean to be a dick but good luck with that justusranvier.

[TheButterZone]

Equally good luck running any bitcoin services in the lightnet. We can all see how little luck and sliding down slippery slopes to oblivion that system has, on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

[Entropy-uc]

Equally good luck running any bitcoin services in the lightnet. We can all see how little luck and sliding down slippery slopes to oblivion that system has, on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

There are plenty of successful businesses operating on the open side of the web.

That many users continue to tolerate failures like Mt.Gox is just a sign of how immature the market still is.  There will be many successful ventures that fully conform to regulation.  And any business restricting itself to operation on the darknet is limiting itself to an extremely small segment of the user base.

[Matthew N. Wright]

any business restricting itself to operation on the darknet is limiting itself to an extremely small segment of the user base.

That could also have been argued about Apple's iTunes store and look how that turned out.

[TheButterZone]

Equally good luck running any bitcoin services in the lightnet. We can all see how little luck and sliding down slippery slopes to oblivion that system has, on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

There are plenty of successful businesses operating on the open side of the web.

That many users continue to tolerate failures like Mt.Gox is just a sign of how immature the market still is.  There will be many successful ventures that fully conform to regulation.  And any business restricting itself to operation on the darknet is limiting itself to an extremely small segment of the user base.

I simply cannot see how it's possible to conform to 100% of regulations and laws in good faith (that means NEVER paying legal or illegal bribes). http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229

If "successful" is defined as "merely hasn't been targeted by arbitrary, capricious, or malicious actors YET", then sure, there are "plenty of successful businesses". Such luck, or whatever you want to call it, is not equal to immunity.

[TheButterZone]

Equally good luck running any bitcoin services in the lightnet. We can all see how little luck and sliding down slippery slopes to oblivion that system has, on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

There are plenty of successful businesses operating on the open side of the web.

That many users continue to tolerate failures like Mt.Gox is just a sign of how immature the market still is.  There will be many successful ventures that fully conform to regulation.  And any business restricting itself to operation on the darknet is limiting itself to an extremely small segment of the user base.

I simply cannot see how it's possible to conform to 100% of regulations and laws in good faith (that means NEVER paying legal or illegal bribes). http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229

If "successful" is defined as "merely hasn't been targeted by arbitrary, capricious, or malicious actors YET", then sure, there are "plenty of successful businesses". Such luck, or whatever you want to call it, is not equal to immunity.

Immunity is gained by having the resources to lawyer up and fight.

Welcome to the American dream.

Or nightmare, if you beg, borrow, and steal to get a lawyer, and evil still wins, as it almost always does.

[TangibleCryptography]

Equally good luck running any bitcoin services in the lightnet. We can all see how little luck and sliding down slippery slopes to oblivion that system has, on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

Of course just use first international darknet bank (with global ACH and wire service).  Why didn't I think of that?

[Matthew N. Wright]

Equally good luck running any bitcoin services in the lightnet. We can all see how little luck and sliding down slippery slopes to oblivion that system has, on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

Of course just use first international darknet bank (with global ACH and wire service).  Why didn't I think of that?

Do they have a black credit card like American Express does?

[TheButterZone]

Equally good luck running any bitcoin services in the lightnet. We can all see how little luck and sliding down slippery slopes to oblivion that system has, on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

Of course just use first international darknet bank (with global ACH and wire service).  Why didn't I think of that?

Obviously ACH and wire is lightnet exclusive, which is why you cannot use it at all without an iota of fear of being fucked, no matter how much you spend on "compliance" other than bribery.

[justusranvier]

Obviously ACH and wire is lightnet exclusive, which is why you cannot use it at all without an iota of fear of being fucked, no matter how much you spend on "compliance" other than bribery.

A company with a single business account is easily fucked with.

A swarm of part time hobby traders sending occasional wires and ACH is much less susceptible.

[TheButterZone]

Obviously ACH and wire is lightnet exclusive, which is why you cannot use it at all without an iota of fear of being fucked, no matter how much you spend on "compliance" other than bribery.

A company with a single business account is easily fucked with.

A swarm of part time hobby traders sending occasional wires and ACH is much less susceptible.

Less susceptible != without an iota of fear.

[MSantori]

Equally good luck running any bitcoin services in the lightnet. We can all see how little luck and sliding down slippery slopes to oblivion that system has, on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

Of course just use first international darknet bank (with global ACH and wire service).  Why didn't I think of that?

Love it.

[TheButterZone]

Can't seem to find that directory of lawyers who instantly bend all tyrants to the will of 100% of their innocent/pro-liberty clients, with force of will (no bribery or blackmail) alone.

Sick of the implication that one, or many lawyers collectively, are superhuman/godlike, can defeat tyranny in all circumstances. If that were true, tyranny wouldn't exist.