Why QQ?

[hexed]

So let me get this straight..

A guy who has invested in all other mining projects BESIDES BFL is leading a movement for BFL people to cancel preorders? 

First.. This whole idea of a refund tsunami is a little too late.  They are shipping.. k9quaint says there are now BFL posts on the front page complaining about not getting product.  Maybe you didn't actually read the posts but 3 out of 4 of them currently are regarding PRODUCTS RECEIVED.  The 1/4 is the "BFL fucks us over again" thread.  Yeah, that thread is going to be great sandwiched in between "I GOT MY JALAPENO!!" and "I'M GETTING 5.6GH/s ON THIS 240$ DEVICE!!!"  Sorry to all of you BFL naysayers but even if they are JUST shipping Jalapenos right now.. they are SHIPPING. The more people that receive them the more this Custom Hardware forum is going to be flooded with "JALAPENO NUMBERS/JALAPENO POWER NUMBERS/JALAPENO OVERCLOCKING/MY JALAPENO IS AWESOME!/ETC".  Game over.. this has probably given them such a huge boost in preorders coming in for all products that they could refund everyone from June-Dec and still not have to cut any staff.

Second.. Nice try attempting to get people to cancel their devices so they won't cut into your mining profits, but it won't work.  Do you REALLY think that people who are now sitting at 10 months of waiting are going to only NOW ask for a refund?  Now that they are shipping?  Now that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and no.. it's not a train coming at us.  It's now getting to be a little more than obvious that BFL is not going anywhere.    People who invested like I did in the earlier days and have been patient are not going to all of a sudden, lose that patience.  What, am I going to get my 1K back from BFL and buy.. 3 USB miners?  Throw away my possibility of 40GH/s for 900MH/s?  I'd rather have a coinflip chance to get 40GH/s this month or next than have 3 USB miners hashing at 900MH/s total next week

Third, are you really crying about threads about crying?  Someone should revoke your internet privileges. 

[tigerfree]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

you dont have the (hundreds of TH of mining equipment ) because if you have it why you are delaying it and not shipping for the buyer?

[tigerfree]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

If you weren't scared, you wouldn't be posting here. You've done more than I ever could have to verify just how precarious your position is.

Oh and, if you have all those 100s of THs, why aren't you sending out more than 100GH of orders? Ah yes.... next week right?

+1

[Minor Miner]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?
Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.
For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

I am impressed.   Who has high jacked Josh's account?  This new Josh makes sense, does not swear and is straight to the point.   I am not sure I can accept him.   I was getting used to the old Josh.   Please give him his account back.

[k9quaint]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

you dont have the (hundreds of TH of mining equipment ) because if you have it why you are delaying it and not shipping for the buyer?

Hypothetically

Hypothetically

It's cool if you want to be a troll and all, but please at least put some effort into pretending to read.

The hypothetical is what the company will do. A given was that the company is holding hundreds of terahashes worth of equipment.
Tigerfree was correct in pointing out the entire hypothetical was irrelevant because the given was not true.

Josh could have also said:
Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with a call to cancel pre-orders yet having delivered 100% of orders is going to do?
You would be correct in pointing out that the hypothetical is irrelevant to the current discussion of BFL because they have not delivered 100% of their pre-orders. It is not a troll to point out a flaw in a rule for a hypothetical.

[dogie]

If you thought you could deliver on time in the first place, why wouldn't you have just solo mined? You've said yourself how much easier and profitable it would be. Ah yes, because you never thought you could deliver, but instead prayed on the trusting community, pooling their funds for your own greed.

[Inaba]

If you thought you could deliver on time in the first place, why wouldn't you have just solo mined? You've said yourself how much easier and profitable it would be. Ah yes, because you never thought you could deliver, but instead prayed on the trusting community, pooling their funds for your own greed.

The Herp and Derp are strong with this one.

[k9quaint]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

you dont have the (hundreds of TH of mining equipment ) because if you have it why you are delaying it and not shipping for the buyer?

Hypothetically

Hypothetically

It's cool if you want to be a troll and all, but please at least put some effort into pretending to read.

The hypothetical is what the company will do. A given was that the company is holding hundreds of terahashes worth of equipment.
Tigerfree was correct in pointing out the entire hypothetical was irrelevant because the given was not true.

Josh could have also said:
Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with a call to cancel pre-orders yet having delivered 100% of orders is going to do?
You would be correct in pointing out that the hypothetical is irrelevant to the current discussion of BFL because they have not delivered 100% of their pre-orders. It is not a troll to point out a flaw in a rule for a hypothetical.

This entire post is based on a hypothetical.  An absurd one at that, which would have the exact opposite effect of what it foolishly intended.

You assume that BFL did not use the pre-order money to fund operations. Bad assumption. BFL stated specifically that they were soliciting the pre-order money to develop the ASIC. Then magically after 11 months of development they didn't spend a dime of pre-order money? Not likely. The only evidence to support BFL in this is Josh's statement to the contrary.

What did Bear Stearns say right before they went bankrupt? "We are fine, we are profitable, your money is safe, we are doing great".
What did Lehman Brothers say right before they went bankrupt? "We are fine, we are profitable, your money is safe, we are doing great".
If BFL would be bankrupted by a run on refunds, they surely would not admit it here. Such a statement could precipitate a run on their operating funds and put the company out of business.

[k9quaint]

Selling ASICs is far more profitable than mining with them right now.   Five minutes on the Custom Hardware forum will tell you that. See: ASICMINER.

300 MH/s.  Selling for 2BTC.

Your posts are filled with emotional or self-serving thoughts instead of rational ones.

BFL cannot sell their ASICs for that price since they set a far lower price months ago. They have to plow through ten's of thousands of pre-orders before they can jack the price up. Right now, BFL would make more money mining with Jalapeno's than shipping them because they have already collected the cash. Shipping does not affect their bottom line until they reach the end of pre-orders. The latest target for this is 90 days.

ASICMiner did not lock themselves into a contract price months ago and are thus able to capitalize on BFL's failure to deliver.

The part where BFL, who is shipping 5,000 GH/s units RIGHT NOW suddenly has zero pre-orders and can ship to new customers within days.

FYI,  BFL is not shipping 5,000 GH/s units.
They are shipping a trickle of 5GH/s units.
They have not even delivered 1TH/s of hash power yet.
They have shipped no singles or mini-rig units yet, they do not have an operational prototype for those units yet.
The bulk of their hashrate ordered is for singles and mini-rigs. If those customers canceled their orders but there were still hundreds of Jalapeno's in queue, they would be faced with a cash crunch and still have obligations to continue operations.

[dogie]

Let's also not forget the thread from a few weeks back where BFL forced a refund on an unhappy customer.  Doesn't sound like a company that's about to go under to me.

Fixed

[Minor Miner]

D Man;
Think you have a few zero and consonant problems.

[rustyh17]

Dogie,

You get what you give in this world. Whatever you focus on becomes your truth. You
seem to see evil intent in others, but your answer is to respond with evil intent. Does
that really make sense in the scheme of things?

Your words hold no value and have absolutely no chance of achieving the intended effect.

We are not Scottish. You are not William Wallace. BFL are not the English. This is not a
field of battle. Please wipe the blue and white paint off your face and go watch a Survivor
re-run.

Sincerely,

The vast majority of BFL customers

[dogie]

Dogie,

You get what you give in this world. Whatever you focus on becomes your truth. You
seem to see evil intent in others, but your answer is to respond with evil intent. Does
that really make sense in the scheme of things?

Your words hold no value and have absolutely no chance of achieving the intended effect.

We are not Scottish. You are not William Wallace. BFL are not the English. This is not a
field of battle. Please wipe the blue and white paint off your face and go watch a Survivor
re-run.

Sincerely,

The vast majority of BFL customers

Then stop making shitty QQ threads.

[PuertoLibre]

My crystal ball is shuddering terribly.

It says, shit is about to hit the fan.

Horrorscope of the day, if you are in, get out. Quickly!

[k9quaint]

Again, following the idea of this hypothetical if all orders were refunded, new customers would be lining up to give BFL money as they already have been - with the added bonus of no more people in front of them any more.

Your supposition fails if a significant portion of those old customers could not get their refunds because BFL ran out of money. People will not pre-order from a company that has to declare bankruptcy. BFL will not get to mine or ship to new customers if the old ones don't get their refunds.

Your argument only works if you assume that BFL has tons of money. Your only evidence of this is a statement by Josh that they still have all of the pre-order money. The original purpose of collecting the pre-order money was to fund the development of the ASIC device (which took 7 months longer than planned). Magically, at the end of this extended development cycle no money was spent.

[Bonam]

BFL is finally mass shipping Jalapenos... I'd guess that now that it's proven they can make and ship these things in reasonable numbers, they are probably getting more orders for them than ever. So this whole "call to arms" plan is silly. More likely the OP actually does have a BFL order and just wants to move forward in the queue by people ahead of him cancelling.

[Minor Miner]

D Man;
Think you have a few zero and consonant problems.

I mistyped GH/s instead of MH/s.  What are the consonant issues?

Not important.   there were two ways you could fix it.  Change a G to an M or get rid of ,000

[FCTaiChi]

Dogie,

You get what you give in this world. Whatever you focus on becomes your truth. You
seem to see evil intent in others, but your answer is to respond with evil intent. Does
that really make sense in the scheme of things?

Your words hold no value and have absolutely no chance of achieving the intended effect.

We are not Scottish. You are not William Wallace. BFL are not the English. This is not a
field of battle. Please wipe the blue and white paint off your face and go watch a Survivor
re-run.

Sincerely,

The vast majority of BFL customers

If someone was stealing from my neighbors, and the thief had convinced them to give him more, and that he was their best friend, by showing how charitable they were, even while yelling in their faces....  I would feel the need to try to wake them up, or take down the thief.  Saying that he has, "evil intent" is missing the point.  Violence is necessary.  Every time you eat you kill something.  Pretending to be above it all gets you nowhere.

It's foolish of you to go after dogie for this.  All of you.  Sure talk about his logic, discuss the holes in his plan.  When you attack him personally calling him a crybaby...  The idea is to do something for once.  How can you say this is just qq?  Going after someone?  If someone came at you and punched you in the face is that qq?  

Sure there are more important issues in the world, but this is happening in our backyard.  I'm not sure that cancelling orders would do much..  The chance that they could cover every preorder if they were cancelled is very small.  Funny how the talk goes to how expensive things are sometimes, and others how they have plenty of extra money.  Oh wait, maybe they could just spend some of their mined holdings and pay everyone off..

[k9quaint]

Again, following the idea of this hypothetical if all orders were refunded, new customers would be lining up to give BFL money as they already have been - with the added bonus of no more people in front of them any more.

Your supposition fails if a significant portion of those old customers could not get their refunds because BFL ran out of money. People will not pre-order from a company that has to declare bankruptcy. BFL will not get to mine or ship to new customers if the old ones don't get their refunds.

Your argument only works if you assume that BFL has tons of money. Your only evidence of this is a statement by Josh that they still have all of the pre-order money. The original purpose of collecting the pre-order money was to fund the development of the ASIC device (which took 7 months longer than planned). Magically, at the end of this extended development cycle no money was spent.

My argument is also leveraging the past history where BFL refunds aren't given out instantly, but over the course of a few days. '

So, more simply, if $5 million (or whatever number you want to put here) goes out on the 14th, the current demand in the market for ASICs would easily dictate 5 million+ being right back on BFL's books before the 21st when all of those refunds were sent.

The reason why you don't believe this part:

"the current demand in the market for ASICs would easily dictate 5 million+ being right back on BFL's books"

Is negative emotion tied to BFL's history, instead of looking at the present and facts.

People would have to know the refunds took place in order to realize that BFL's order queue had cleared. So BFL would have to come up with the "$5 million" and send it out and then declare that all pre-orders were cleared. If BFL tried to say they had no more obligations to pre-orders before actually paying them all off, people would declare on these forums (and others) that they had not received their refund yet. So no, BFL would not instantly gain back "$5 million" in market pre-orders (I doubt their website and back office could process that many in so short a time).

Any mass refund scenario would obviously play out over weeks as momentum and awareness of it built.
Your scenario depends on every single BFL order refunding all at the same time and then $5 million of new pre-orders appearing instantly to fund the refunds. I do not think that likely or even possible.

[Miner99er]

After this and the 7990 thread... SMDH.

Dogie, stop... just stop, ok... you're doing no one a service with your ideas or information (lack ther of it) and every time you go to post something, It's pretty much troll-bait.

Jalapenos are shipping. Singles and Mini singles will "Soon"^TM Along with the 500 Gh/s Mini rigs. If they keep competitive on price they'll sell, if they can't the free market will fold the company.

I'm currently looking to order a Jupiter miner cause I don't see BFL moving onward a generation 2 product after this fiasco. I may be wrong, but I'm voting with my wallet.