Why QQ?

[dogie]

Rather than a giant paragraph, lets look at the facts/rumours/likely case:

• 30000000 fucking threads QQing about them every day
• bitcointalk forum members probably make a decent chunk of the orders by $, due to singles, minirigs not exactly being impulse buys + the fact they spend SO much money advertising here
• Their 1000 donation to 'charity' was scummy as hell
• BFL can't be in a good financial position. Even if they had taken on 7 figure injections of cash, they've burnt SO much and have still made $0 from actual ASIC product that they're in a risky position
• You are free to refund whenever you want
• Likely vulnerable to private litigations for the false promises and failure to deliver

The solution? A mass refund exodus. Everyone requests a refund at the same time. As many orders cancelled at once as possible. What if you're the last one in and they can't refund you, they get their assets frozen or seized? Better refund.

The momentum is too much, the cash flow is too much, the investors bricking themselves too much. Forced to pull the plug, the rest of the orders get refunded.

Edit: Added disclaimer, I have investments in ASICMiner and Avalon, however it doesn't change my outlook towards them. If I had been around at the time, I'd also have 10 preorders and going mental like you all.

[1715437739]

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[nubbins]

JUNE 15

R-DAY

[smoothie]

So you create another BFL thread essentially crying about other threads. Less talking and more action? Please show us by stfu. Thanks

 

[os2sam]

tldr: Either force a refund tsunami or stfu
Edit: Added disclaimer, I have investments in ASICMiner and Avalon, however it doesn't change my outlook towards BFL. If I had been around at the time, I'd also have 10 preorders and going mental like you all.

So, you don't have a BFL preorder, so no dog in the BFL hunt.

But your telling people who do have BFL preorders what to do?

Why don't you mind your own business?  Since BFL ASIC's aren't your business.

[spiral_mind]

Rather than a giant paragraph, lets look at the facts/rumours/likely case:

• 30000000 fucking threads QQing about BFL every day
• bitcointalk forum members probably make a decent chunk of the orders by $, due to singles, minirigs not exactly being impulse buys + the fact BFL spends SO much money advertising here
• Their 1000 donation to 'charity' was scummy as hell
• BFL can't be in a good financial position. Even if they had taken on 7 figure injections of cash, they've burnt SO much and have still made $0 from actual ASIC product that they're in a risky position
• You are free to refund whenever you want
• BFL are extremely vulnerable to private litigations for the false promises and failure to deliver
• BFL would undoubtedly get bukaki'ed by government agencies if an investigation was to occur. Assets frozen etc
• BFL would get spit roasted if the FCC found they were selling these uncertified products, even if it is just $7000 worth in 9 months LOL

The solution? A mass refund exodus. Everyone requests a refund at the same time. As many orders cancelled at once as possible. What if you're the last one in and they can't refund you, they get their assets frozen or seized? Better refund.

The momentum is too much, the cash flow is too much, the investors bricking themselves too much. BFL is forced to pull the plug, the rest of the orders get refunded. BFL ceases to exist, the real boys (Avalon, ASICMiner + DIYs) can use your money. The power is in your hands, no one elses.

tldr: Either force a refund tsunami or stfu
Edit: Added disclaimer, I have investments in ASICMiner and Avalon, however it doesn't change my outlook towards BFL. If I had been around at the time, I'd also have 10 preorders and going mental like you all.

And the award for most retarded post goes to....

Doggie!!

"BFL sucks for not delivering, let's try and fuck them over so hard they can never deliver"

[dogie]

So you create another BFL thread essentially crying about other threads. Less talking and more action? Please show us by stfu. Thanks
 

1 thread to stop 10 threads being made a day? Its called an investment....

tldr: Either force a refund tsunami or stfu
Edit: Added disclaimer, I have investments in ASICMiner and Avalon, however it doesn't change my outlook towards BFL. If I had been around at the time, I'd also have 10 preorders and going mental like you all.

So, you don't have a BFL preorder, so no dog in the BFL hunt.

But your telling people who do have BFL preorders what to do?

Why don't you mind your own business?  Since BFL ASIC's aren't your business.

Brb, let me go waste $250 on a Jap so you won't QQ

[dogie]

And the award for most retarded post goes to....

Doggie!!

"BFL sucks for not delivering, let's try and fuck them over so hard they can never deliver"

Yes that is the whole fucking point. Wipe them off the face of the earth but in such a way that everyone who is currently 'in' with BFL can get 'out' in one wave, rather than everyone attempting to/running away from being the last one 'in'.

I think this is a bit too complicated for your brain if you can't even copy and paste "dogie" correctly.

[os2sam]

Brb, let me go waste $250 on a Jap so you won't QQ

If only I had a clue what you were saying.  I only read English, not gibberish.

[wrenchmonkey]

Do it, Doggie, jump, jump, jump! I'm RIGHT behind you.

[dogie]

Brb, let me go waste $250 on a Jap so you won't QQ

If only I had a clue what you were saying.  I only read English, not gibberish.

me buy https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage/5-gh-s-bitcoin-miner.html
now me has BFL
now you can shut up
comprendez?

[os2sam]

And the award for most retarded post goes to....

Doggie!!

"BFL sucks for not delivering, let's try and fuck them over so hard they can never deliver"

Yes that is the whole fucking point. Wipe them off the face of the earth but in such a way that everyone who is currently 'in' with BFL can get 'out' in one wave, rather than everyone attempting to/running away from being the last one 'in'.

I think this is a bit too complicated for your brain if you can't even copy and paste "dogie" correctly.

Well if you had a preoder you could cancel it.  But you don't so mind your own business.

It's one thing to express your opinion but to tell others to take an action just because you want them to is just narcissistic and childish.  So mind your own business.

Or maybe tell us an original thought on the subject.

[Crypt_Current]

This thread reminds me that Dimebag Darrell is dead 

OP is on the verge of becoming like the dude that shot Dimebag -- world class idiot.

[dogie]

And the award for most retarded post goes to....

Doggie!!

"BFL sucks for not delivering, let's try and fuck them over so hard they can never deliver"

Yes that is the whole fucking point. Wipe them off the face of the earth but in such a way that everyone who is currently 'in' with BFL can get 'out' in one wave, rather than everyone attempting to/running away from being the last one 'in'.

I think this is a bit too complicated for your brain if you can't even copy and paste "dogie" correctly.

Well if you had a preoder you could cancel it.  But you don't so mind your own business.

It's one thing to express your opinion but to tell others to take an action just because you want them to is just narcissistic and childish.  So mind your own business.

Or maybe tell us an original thought on the subject.

I can tell you whatever I want, you can choose to listen or not. #freewilly

[BaronMcG]

To be honest you've already shown how one man could potentially take them down:

    BFL would undoubtedly get bukaki'ed by government agencies if an investigation was to occur. Assets frozen etc
    BFL would get spit roasted if the FCC found they were selling these uncertified products, even if it is just $7000 worth in 9 months LOL


Why dont you just report them to said agencies, watch the run on the bank as it comes out that everyone's money thats tied up has been frozen and under investigation, there would be charge backs on cards done on mass.

[bitpop]

What the fuck is qq

[jayeeyee]

What the fuck is qq

"Cry Cry" the Q's are meant to look like eyes tearing. A more accurate description would be "T_T".. but.. what do I know?

[pheaonix]

get em boys



original art credit goes to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=95506

[iammagicmike]

Rather than a giant paragraph, lets look at the facts/rumours/likely case:

• 30000000 fucking threads QQing about BFL every day
• bitcointalk forum members probably make a decent chunk of the orders by $, due to singles, minirigs not exactly being impulse buys + the fact BFL spends SO much money advertising here
• Their 1000 donation to 'charity' was scummy as hell
• BFL can't be in a good financial position. Even if they had taken on 7 figure injections of cash, they've burnt SO much and have still made $0 from actual ASIC product that they're in a risky position
• You are free to refund whenever you want
• BFL are extremely vulnerable to private litigations for the false promises and failure to deliver
• BFL would undoubtedly get bukaki'ed by government agencies if an investigation was to occur. Assets frozen etc
• BFL would get spit roasted if the FCC found they were selling these uncertified products, even if it is just $7000 worth in 9 months LOL

The solution? A mass refund exodus. Everyone requests a refund at the same time. As many orders cancelled at once as possible. What if you're the last one in and they can't refund you, they get their assets frozen or seized? Better refund.

The momentum is too much, the cash flow is too much, the investors bricking themselves too much. BFL is forced to pull the plug, the rest of the orders get refunded. BFL ceases to exist, the real boys (Avalon, ASICMiner + DIYs) can use your money. The power is in your hands, no one elses.

tldr: Either force a refund tsunami or stfu
Edit: Added disclaimer, I have investments in ASICMiner and Avalon, however it doesn't change my outlook towards BFL. If I had been around at the time, I'd also have 10 preorders and going mental like you all.

I love the idea.  I cancelled my order months ago.  But since I can not request another refund, I'll send them a postcard of my anus to really stir the pot (and it's a mess down there)

[dogie]

To be honest you've already shown how one man could potentially take them down:

    BFL would undoubtedly get bukaki'ed by government agencies if an investigation was to occur. Assets frozen etc
    BFL would get spit roasted if the FCC found they were selling these uncertified products, even if it is just $7000 worth in 9 months LOL


Why dont you just report them to said agencies, watch the run on the bank as it comes out that everyone's money thats tied up has been frozen and under investigation, there would be charge backs on cards done on mass.

Because I'm not a US citizen. I did actually look at the FCC reporting a few months ago just for luls and I think you have to call a US number?

[Bitcoinorama]

To be honest you've already shown how one man could potentially take them down:

    BFL would undoubtedly get bukaki'ed by government agencies if an investigation was to occur. Assets frozen etc
    BFL would get spit roasted if the FCC found they were selling these uncertified products, even if it is just $7000 worth in 9 months LOL


Why dont you just report them to said agencies, watch the run on the bank as it comes out that everyone's money thats tied up has been frozen and under investigation, there would be charge backs on cards done on mass.

Because I'm not a US citizen. I did actually look at the FCC reporting a few months ago just for luls and I think you have to call a US number?

No you don't, although if you wanted to exert more pressure a phone call and hand written letter sent by registered post would prob raise more eyebrows.

Almost certainly it requires efforts of those on this forum...

http://www.fcc.gov/complaints

Also this would be helpful for you to read:

http://www.bureauveritas.com/wps/wcm/connect/bv_com/Group/Home/About-Us/Our-Business/Our-Business-Consumer-Products/Resources/Frequently+Asked+Questions/FCC

I think you would need to knock heads and create some congruency as to where you agree the fault lies and what you are complaining about exactly...

[helmax]

why you dont ask your money back

[dogie]

why you dont ask your money back

I don't have any money to ask for, but I could try

To be honest you've already shown how one man could potentially take them down:

    BFL would undoubtedly get bukaki'ed by government agencies if an investigation was to occur. Assets frozen etc
    BFL would get spit roasted if the FCC found they were selling these uncertified products, even if it is just $7000 worth in 9 months LOL


Why dont you just report them to said agencies, watch the run on the bank as it comes out that everyone's money thats tied up has been frozen and under investigation, there would be charge backs on cards done on mass.

Because I'm not a US citizen. I did actually look at the FCC reporting a few months ago just for luls and I think you have to call a US number?

No you don't, although if you wanted to exert more pressure a phone call and hand written letter sent by registered post would prob raise more eyebrows.

Almost certainly it requires efforts of those on this forum...

http://www.fcc.gov/complaints

Also this would be helpful for you to read:

http://www.bureauveritas.com/wps/wcm/connect/bv_com/Group/Home/About-Us/Our-Business/Our-Business-Consumer-Products/Resources/Frequently+Asked+Questions/FCC

I think you would need to knock heads and create some congruency as to where you agree the fault lies and what you are complaining about exactly...

Ah that was it. Yeah when you follow it through it just gets more and more bullshit. Even the first category, what on earth do you select.

[Bitcoinorama]

why you dont ask your money back

I don't have any money to ask for, but I could try

To be honest you've already shown how one man could potentially take them down:

    BFL would undoubtedly get bukaki'ed by government agencies if an investigation was to occur. Assets frozen etc
    BFL would get spit roasted if the FCC found they were selling these uncertified products, even if it is just $7000 worth in 9 months LOL


Why dont you just report them to said agencies, watch the run on the bank as it comes out that everyone's money thats tied up has been frozen and under investigation, there would be charge backs on cards done on mass.

Because I'm not a US citizen. I did actually look at the FCC reporting a few months ago just for luls and I think you have to call a US number?

No you don't, although if you wanted to exert more pressure a phone call and hand written letter sent by registered post would prob raise more eyebrows.

Almost certainly it requires efforts of those on this forum...

http://www.fcc.gov/complaints

Also this would be helpful for you to read:

http://www.bureauveritas.com/wps/wcm/connect/bv_com/Group/Home/About-Us/Our-Business/Our-Business-Consumer-Products/Resources/Frequently+Asked+Questions/FCC

I think you would need to knock heads and create some congruency as to where you agree the fault lies and what you are complaining about exactly...

Ah that was it. Yeah when you follow it through it just gets more and more bullshit. Even the first category, what on earth do you select.

Don't know mate, that's for you to mutually agree on with those considering.

Perhaps of you knock heads with those vocally disenchanted Butterfly Labs opponents then you could determine a more pragmatic solution and post a walk through for all concerned?

That would be more eventful than a forum thread expressing disdain and not really going anywhere.

Otherwise all these negative Butterfly Labs threads are nothing but hot air!!!

I thought you were a millionaire at 13, surely you must be able to apply some logic to this...

Walk the talk.

[PulsedMedia]

Clearly, Dogie is biased against BFL.
BFL has started delivering which is very evident, all the major costs have now been covered.
The biggest costs has always been with the ASICs the initial design and prefab (masking and what not), once these are done the individual chip cost is extremely low.
Somehow i bet their per chip cost is in the 5$ ballpark now.
Add rest of the HW -> casing, pcb, caps, regs, resistors etc etc. bought in bulk you have something like this cost breakdown:
case 5$
fan 1$
pcb 2$
connectors 5$
on board components: 10$
Total: 23$
Assembly + testing: 20$ per unit.
43$ + chips = 53$ per jalapeno unit. So realisticially 50 to 100$ to mfg single unit.

Since this is an exponential growth business limited by bitcoin valuation, which exponentially raises as mining costs raise, and they are now delivering they are starting to rake in more and more orders each and every day.

Why exponential growth?
Let's assume 5G unit has a steady ROI of 6months after costs (right now more like 1week, in couple of months 3months, in a year probably 11months), and bitcoin price does not fluctuate.
Customer buys 1 unit, 6months later he buys another with the mining revenue, 6months after he buys 2 units, 6months after 4 units and so forth.
Since ROI is more like 1 week now, it goes more like this:
1 week purchase 2nd unit
2nd week purchase 2 more units
4th week purchase 3 more units (ROI is getting longer), now 7 units
6th week purchase 5 more units, total 12
8th week purchase 9 more units, total 21
10th +15 = 36
12th +20 = 56
14th +20 = 86
and so forth.

Now as we start reaching point where ROI takes 11 months, miners suddenly stop purchasing and hoarding, which leads to prices raising as more miners are hoarding, if some major event happens then with several month lead time BTC price will hike and all the miners suddenly sell their BTC and purchase a lot of new equipment, just like what happened lately.

Therefore, as long as BFL is shipping they are getting ever increasing revenue.
The true winner again is the one selling shovels, not digging the gold.


All of this lets me conclude that Dogie has a vested interest in Avalon, Bitfury, KNC or ASICMINER. Probably ASICMINER, and he is trying to guard his investment by spreading FUD and trying to get people to run at BFL at the very last possible moment.
You forget just one thing, BFL likely has in their war chest few thousand BTCs alone, which easily pays the current salaries for some months and the components for next several wafers completion and as per T&C refunds are not guaranteed, even if suddenly 15% asked refund today, they'd probably honor 5% and then stop and keep on shipping.

Nice try troll, but no luck. I think i'll go buy another few 50G units now, ty very much.

[dogie]

why you dont ask your money back

I don't have any money to ask for, but I could try

To be honest you've already shown how one man could potentially take them down:

    BFL would undoubtedly get bukaki'ed by government agencies if an investigation was to occur. Assets frozen etc
    BFL would get spit roasted if the FCC found they were selling these uncertified products, even if it is just $7000 worth in 9 months LOL


Why dont you just report them to said agencies, watch the run on the bank as it comes out that everyone's money thats tied up has been frozen and under investigation, there would be charge backs on cards done on mass.

Because I'm not a US citizen. I did actually look at the FCC reporting a few months ago just for luls and I think you have to call a US number?

No you don't, although if you wanted to exert more pressure a phone call and hand written letter sent by registered post would prob raise more eyebrows.

Almost certainly it requires efforts of those on this forum...

http://www.fcc.gov/complaints

Also this would be helpful for you to read:

http://www.bureauveritas.com/wps/wcm/connect/bv_com/Group/Home/About-Us/Our-Business/Our-Business-Consumer-Products/Resources/Frequently+Asked+Questions/FCC

I think you would need to knock heads and create some congruency as to where you agree the fault lies and what you are complaining about exactly...

Ah that was it. Yeah when you follow it through it just gets more and more bullshit. Even the first category, what on earth do you select.

Don't know mate, that's for you to mutually agree on with those considering.

Perhaps of you knock heads with those vocally disenchanted Butterfly Labs opponents then you could determine a more pragmatic solution and post a walk through for all concerned?

That would be more eventful than a forum thread expressing disdain and not really going anywhere.

Otherwise all these negative Butterfly Labs threads are nothing but hot air!!!

I thought you were a millionaire at 13, surely you must be able to apply some logic to this...

Walk the talk.

Misinterpretation OP.

[dogie]

Clearly, Dogie is biased against BFL.
BFL has started delivering which is very evident, all the major costs have now been covered.
The biggest costs has always been with the ASICs the initial design and prefab (masking and what not), once these are done the individual chip cost is extremely low.
Somehow i bet their per chip cost is in the 5$ ballpark now.
Add rest of the HW -> casing, pcb, caps, regs, resistors etc etc. bought in bulk you have something like this cost breakdown:
case 5$
fan 1$
pcb 2$
connectors 5$
on board components: 10$
Total: 23$
Assembly + testing: 20$ per unit.
43$ + chips = 53$ per jalapeno unit. So realisticially 50 to 100$ to mfg single unit.

Since this is an exponential growth business limited by bitcoin valuation, which exponentially raises as mining costs raise, and they are now delivering they are starting to rake in more and more orders each and every day.

Why exponential growth?
Let's assume 5G unit has a steady ROI of 6months after costs (right now more like 1week, in couple of months 3months, in a year probably 11months), and bitcoin price does not fluctuate.
Customer buys 1 unit, 6months later he buys another with the mining revenue, 6months after he buys 2 units, 6months after 4 units and so forth.
Since ROI is more like 1 week now, it goes more like this:
1 week purchase 2nd unit
2nd week purchase 2 more units
4th week purchase 3 more units (ROI is getting longer), now 7 units
6th week purchase 5 more units, total 12
8th week purchase 9 more units, total 21
10th +15 = 36
12th +20 = 56
14th +20 = 86
and so forth.

Now as we start reaching point where ROI takes 11 months, miners suddenly stop purchasing and hoarding, which leads to prices raising as more miners are hoarding, if some major event happens then with several month lead time BTC price will hike and all the miners suddenly sell their BTC and purchase a lot of new equipment, just like what happened lately.

Therefore, as long as BFL is shipping they are getting ever increasing revenue.
The true winner again is the one selling shovels, not digging the gold.


All of this lets me conclude that Dogie has a vested interest in Avalon, Bitfury, KNC or ASICMINER. Probably ASICMINER, and he is trying to guard his investment by spreading FUD and trying to get people to run at BFL at the very last possible moment.
You forget just one thing, BFL likely has in their war chest few thousand BTCs alone, which easily pays the current salaries for some months and the components for next several wafers completion and as per T&C refunds are not guaranteed, even if suddenly 15% asked refund today, they'd probably honor 5% and then stop and keep on shipping.

Nice try troll, but no luck. I think i'll go buy another few 50G units now, ty very much.

So much shit in here its not even possible to go through it all. I couldn't give a shit if BFL shipped 3000000000000 chips tomorrow or Avalon decided to mine themselves. Its a shit company who is laughing so hard at anyone with a preorder.

If you ordered from Newegg and they offered you a money printing machine, and said "next week", laughed at you when you questioned them, then didn't do anything for 9 months but continue to make false promises. Why do you put up with it? Because you are blinded by greed.

*what if they ship my 1.5TH minirig tomorrow, what if what if what if*

BFL will have a documentary about then im a few years, and you'll all be referred to as victims xD

[k9quaint]

Clearly, Dogie is biased against BFL.
BFL has started delivering which is very evident, all the major costs have now been covered.
The biggest costs has always been with the ASICs the initial design and prefab (masking and what not), once these are done the individual chip cost is extremely low.
Somehow i bet their per chip cost is in the 5$ ballpark now.

That would be Avalon's chip cost because:
it is a much simpler chip
it using a much larger fab process
they did their own mask and design
they order 100,000+ of chips

BFL's chip cost is much more because:
they use a small process (45nm according to some sources)
they have a larger and more complex chip
they are ordering in hundreds of units which means a multi-project wafer
multi-project wafers mean $30-$60 per chip depending on die size

Add rest of the HW -> casing, pcb, caps, regs, resistors etc etc. bought in bulk you have something like this cost breakdown:
case 5$
fan 1$
pcb 2$
connectors 5$
on board components: 10$
Total: 23$

fan + heatsink alone will run them $10, $15 if it is copper, not $1
you forgot the power brick cord which is at least $5 and packaging which is another $5
so your COGs is $50, not $23

Assembly + testing: 20$ per unit.
43$ + chips = 53$ per jalapeno unit. So realisticially 50 to 100$ to mfg single unit.

Using the actual values for COGs we get:
$50 for non-BFL ASIC chip components
$60-$120 for ASIC chips in a Jalapeno (2 chips)
Assembly + testing $20 (total WAG since it depends on salaries, rent, and time spent per unit)
So realistically, total COGs is $130 to $190 per unit which means they are probably hemorrhaging money on early pre-orders.
This is why BFL is so touchy about bad press and hostile forum posts. They need more pre-orders because they have burned through 11 months of salaries and rent (at $400K a month for 20 people, that adds up). That is why they jacked the price up on their Jalapeno's by $100 as soon as they had a working prototype, to re-establish their margins.

[glendall]

I think the idea behind this is correct, and something like this is a good idea.  That being said, 2 points:

1) I think this decision should be up to the BFL pre-order folks  (which doesn't include me).

2) If what OP said goes down and BFL gets shutdown or whatever, I think, IMHO that it would be a far from guaranteed thing that folks would get their pre-order money back. If anything shutting down the company like this would basically make your preorder money a lost cause. It's one thing to get a financial judicial judgement against a company, but it's quite another thing to get money out of a more-than-bankrupt company. (As far as I know -- not a legal expert, but that's my impression...)

[chalidore]

I find it disgustingly hypocritical that in a community of libertarian anarcho-capitalists some of you want to run to government agencies and ask them to attack a company that will make mining more competitive.
If you are encouraging government involvement, and you don't even have an order in with BFL, you are scum, and a disgrace to this community.

[k9quaint]

I find it disgustingly hypocritical that in a community of libertarian anarcho-capitalists some of you want to run to government agencies and ask them to attack a company that will make mining more competitive.
If you are encouraging government involvement, and you don't even have an order in with BFL, you are scum, and a disgrace to this community.

I am not a libertarian anarcho-capitalist. I am math geek, computer science geek, and security nerd. I know quite a few Bitcoiners like me.
I don't believe your characterization of the Bitcoin community to be correct.

But your broad point of libertarians running to the government as soon as shit lands on their doorstep is correct.

[PeZ]

People who don't have preorders with BFL should not be QQ on these forums.

There are a great number of injustices in the world. Put your efforts into something worthwhile.

If you want something local, how about a call to arms against Herbalife - the biggest pyramid conjob there ever was. Too afraid of Carl Icahn?

Or if you want to stick with cryptocurrencies, take a look at Ripple's pyramid scheme.

[spiral_mind]

Dogie probably whined and cried for months about BFL being a scam.

Now that they are shipping and he decided not to order he is venting his anger at BFL itself instead of blaming himself (because that hurts too much).

Don't blame the company, blame your own stupidity Dogie.

[minternj]

People who don't have preorders with BFL should not be QQ on these forums.

Exactly what i've been saying on other bfl related threads. If you don't have business with them STFU. If you do have an order, feel free to whine. Everything has already been said in regards to sony, delays, waht josh ate for breakfast, etc. Stop rehashing it on every thread, everyone knows and has made thier decision to stay or get refunds.

[Bicknellski]

I find it disgustingly hypocritical that in a community of libertarian anarcho-capitalists some of you want to run to government agencies and ask them to attack a company that will make mining more competitive.
If you are encouraging government involvement, and you don't even have an order in with BFL, you are scum, and a disgrace to this community.

As an anarchist we should simply stop buying their products considering they do not value the work force or the consumers they are producing for. You do know what anarchists want right or LIBERTARIANS are right? I think you might want to rethink what you define them as. I for one as a Libertarian do not want a company to disregard it's ethical obligations as that would infringe on the rights of the people who put faith in them.

Seriously what reeks to high heaven here are not those asking the government to step in but those would invoke "libertarianism" as some how a reason for a corporate entity to lie to people. Ignorant. Maybe you need to read up on Anarchism and Libertarian Socialism.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDHBvQRyOr0 Noam Chomsky: On Anarchism Libertarian Socialism. What a real Anarchist / Libertarian looks like. DEMOCRACY THROUGH OUT ALL SOCIETY.

[chalidore]

I find it disgustingly hypocritical that in a community of libertarian anarcho-capitalists some of you want to run to government agencies and ask them to attack a company that will make mining more competitive.
If you are encouraging government involvement, and you don't even have an order in with BFL, you are scum, and a disgrace to this community.

As an anarchist we should simply stop buying their products considering they do not value the work force or the consumers they are producing for. You do know what anarchists want right or LIBERTARIANS are right? I think you might want to rethink what you define them as. I for one as a Libertarian do not want a company to disregard it's ethical obligations as that would infringe on the rights of the people who put faith in them.

Seriously what reeks to high heaven here are not those asking the government to step in but those would invoke "libertarianism" as some how a reason for a corporate entity to lie to people. Ignorant. Maybe you need to read up on Anarchism and Libertarian Socialism.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDHBvQRyOr0 Noam Chomsky: On Anarchism Libertarian Socialism. What a real Anarchist / Libertarian looks like. DEMOCRACY THROUGH OUT ALL SOCIETY.

Don't bring Chomsky into this. That guy is my hero.
Chomsky is going after the petro-chemical/millitary industrial complex, OK?
He has more important shit to deal with than BFL!
I am waiting on BFL to ship, but I'm not going to write a letter to Chomsky, because he is probably busy resolving the Israeli/Palestinian conflict er sum such shit.
If you don't see the hypocrisy of a bitcoin miner going to a federal regulating agency to go after BFL, especially if they don't even have an order with BFL, you are blinded by your own agenda.

[Inaba]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

[dogie]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

If you weren't scared, you wouldn't be posting here. You've done more than I ever could have to verify just how precarious your position is.

Oh and, if you have all those 100s of THs, why aren't you sending out more than 100GH of orders? Ah yes.... next week right?

[k9quaint]

People who don't have preorders with BFL should not be QQ on these forums.

Exactly what i've been saying on other bfl related threads. If you don't have business with them STFU. If you do have an order, feel free to whine. Everything has already been said in regards to sony, delays, waht josh ate for breakfast, etc. Stop rehashing it on every thread, everyone knows and has made thier decision to stay or get refunds.

If the BFL sockpuppets would stop posting misinformation, I think most people would stop responding. However, I can understand you begging people to stop giving BFL bad press. 2 days ago, there was not a single thread on the front page of Custom Hardware about BFL. As it should be IMHO. But customers keep complaining about not having the product they ordered 11 months ago...

At this point BFL has such a tiny piece of the overall hashing rate and is showing few signs of being able to catch up to ASICMiner & Avalon. BFL's customers have paid such enormous opportunity costs already, I just don't see BFL being relevant to Bitcoin hashing for much longer. If KNCMiner delivers, that would be the nail in the coffin.

P.S. Miners who are looking out for their wallet should encourage BFL investors to not refund. Refunded capital would go to Avalon or ASICMiner and result in more actual hashing power deployed sooner than BFL can deliver.

[Inaba]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

If you weren't scared, you wouldn't be posting here. You've done more than I ever could have to verify just how precarious your position is.

He's pointing out the obviously flawed logic in your idea.

The "plan" is so illogical that even if was realistically possible, it would likely end up helping BFL by giving a better profit margin on units already produced being sold at $274 going forward instead of $150 (similarly increased profit margins on the 25/50 GH/s), where most of the proposed "refund exodus" was supposed to take place.

Oh, and as a bonus it would help clear out the pre-order queue that is likely holding back a lot of potential prospective buyers from purchasing BFL right now. 

So the final result would be:

• BFL earns higher profits
• Everyone who didn't refund is bumped up in the queue
• Refunders get their original value back in $

Oh and, if you have all those 100s of THs, why aren't you sending out more than 100GH of orders? Ah yes.... next week right?

...again, the logical conclusion of time wasted going through the proposed Call to arms hypothetically means that BFL has hardware that nobody buys.  Therefore they can mine with it.

It's so refreshing to see someone with a brain posting.  Bonus points for your taste in TV.

[minternj]

However, I can understand you begging people to stop giving BFL bad press. 2 days ago, there was not a single thread on the front page of Custom Hardware about BFL. As it should be IMHO.

i very much doubt that there was no threads talking about BF even for half a second. Even the stupid KNC thread is polluted with BFL bullshit. I go in that thread to read stuff about knc, but nooo we can't behave like normal people on this forum.

[hexed]

So let me get this straight..

A guy who has invested in all other mining projects BESIDES BFL is leading a movement for BFL people to cancel preorders? 

First.. This whole idea of a refund tsunami is a little too late.  They are shipping.. k9quaint says there are now BFL posts on the front page complaining about not getting product.  Maybe you didn't actually read the posts but 3 out of 4 of them currently are regarding PRODUCTS RECEIVED.  The 1/4 is the "BFL fucks us over again" thread.  Yeah, that thread is going to be great sandwiched in between "I GOT MY JALAPENO!!" and "I'M GETTING 5.6GH/s ON THIS 240$ DEVICE!!!"  Sorry to all of you BFL naysayers but even if they are JUST shipping Jalapenos right now.. they are SHIPPING. The more people that receive them the more this Custom Hardware forum is going to be flooded with "JALAPENO NUMBERS/JALAPENO POWER NUMBERS/JALAPENO OVERCLOCKING/MY JALAPENO IS AWESOME!/ETC".  Game over.. this has probably given them such a huge boost in preorders coming in for all products that they could refund everyone from June-Dec and still not have to cut any staff.

Second.. Nice try attempting to get people to cancel their devices so they won't cut into your mining profits, but it won't work.  Do you REALLY think that people who are now sitting at 10 months of waiting are going to only NOW ask for a refund?  Now that they are shipping?  Now that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and no.. it's not a train coming at us.  It's now getting to be a little more than obvious that BFL is not going anywhere.    People who invested like I did in the earlier days and have been patient are not going to all of a sudden, lose that patience.  What, am I going to get my 1K back from BFL and buy.. 3 USB miners?  Throw away my possibility of 40GH/s for 900MH/s?  I'd rather have a coinflip chance to get 40GH/s this month or next than have 3 USB miners hashing at 900MH/s total next week

Third, are you really crying about threads about crying?  Someone should revoke your internet privileges. 

[tigerfree]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

you dont have the (hundreds of TH of mining equipment ) because if you have it why you are delaying it and not shipping for the buyer?

[tigerfree]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

If you weren't scared, you wouldn't be posting here. You've done more than I ever could have to verify just how precarious your position is.

Oh and, if you have all those 100s of THs, why aren't you sending out more than 100GH of orders? Ah yes.... next week right?

+1

[Minor Miner]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?
Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.
For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

I am impressed.   Who has high jacked Josh's account?  This new Josh makes sense, does not swear and is straight to the point.   I am not sure I can accept him.   I was getting used to the old Josh.   Please give him his account back.

[k9quaint]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

you dont have the (hundreds of TH of mining equipment ) because if you have it why you are delaying it and not shipping for the buyer?

Hypothetically

Hypothetically

It's cool if you want to be a troll and all, but please at least put some effort into pretending to read.

The hypothetical is what the company will do. A given was that the company is holding hundreds of terahashes worth of equipment.
Tigerfree was correct in pointing out the entire hypothetical was irrelevant because the given was not true.

Josh could have also said:
Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with a call to cancel pre-orders yet having delivered 100% of orders is going to do?
You would be correct in pointing out that the hypothetical is irrelevant to the current discussion of BFL because they have not delivered 100% of their pre-orders. It is not a troll to point out a flaw in a rule for a hypothetical.

[dogie]

If you thought you could deliver on time in the first place, why wouldn't you have just solo mined? You've said yourself how much easier and profitable it would be. Ah yes, because you never thought you could deliver, but instead prayed on the trusting community, pooling their funds for your own greed.

[Inaba]

If you thought you could deliver on time in the first place, why wouldn't you have just solo mined? You've said yourself how much easier and profitable it would be. Ah yes, because you never thought you could deliver, but instead prayed on the trusting community, pooling their funds for your own greed.

The Herp and Derp are strong with this one.

[k9quaint]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

you dont have the (hundreds of TH of mining equipment ) because if you have it why you are delaying it and not shipping for the buyer?

Hypothetically

Hypothetically

It's cool if you want to be a troll and all, but please at least put some effort into pretending to read.

The hypothetical is what the company will do. A given was that the company is holding hundreds of terahashes worth of equipment.
Tigerfree was correct in pointing out the entire hypothetical was irrelevant because the given was not true.

Josh could have also said:
Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with a call to cancel pre-orders yet having delivered 100% of orders is going to do?
You would be correct in pointing out that the hypothetical is irrelevant to the current discussion of BFL because they have not delivered 100% of their pre-orders. It is not a troll to point out a flaw in a rule for a hypothetical.

This entire post is based on a hypothetical.  An absurd one at that, which would have the exact opposite effect of what it foolishly intended.

You assume that BFL did not use the pre-order money to fund operations. Bad assumption. BFL stated specifically that they were soliciting the pre-order money to develop the ASIC. Then magically after 11 months of development they didn't spend a dime of pre-order money? Not likely. The only evidence to support BFL in this is Josh's statement to the contrary.

What did Bear Stearns say right before they went bankrupt? "We are fine, we are profitable, your money is safe, we are doing great".
What did Lehman Brothers say right before they went bankrupt? "We are fine, we are profitable, your money is safe, we are doing great".
If BFL would be bankrupted by a run on refunds, they surely would not admit it here. Such a statement could precipitate a run on their operating funds and put the company out of business.

[k9quaint]

Selling ASICs is far more profitable than mining with them right now.   Five minutes on the Custom Hardware forum will tell you that. See: ASICMINER.

300 MH/s.  Selling for 2BTC.

Your posts are filled with emotional or self-serving thoughts instead of rational ones.

BFL cannot sell their ASICs for that price since they set a far lower price months ago. They have to plow through ten's of thousands of pre-orders before they can jack the price up. Right now, BFL would make more money mining with Jalapeno's than shipping them because they have already collected the cash. Shipping does not affect their bottom line until they reach the end of pre-orders. The latest target for this is 90 days.

ASICMiner did not lock themselves into a contract price months ago and are thus able to capitalize on BFL's failure to deliver.

The part where BFL, who is shipping 5,000 GH/s units RIGHT NOW suddenly has zero pre-orders and can ship to new customers within days.

FYI,  BFL is not shipping 5,000 GH/s units.
They are shipping a trickle of 5GH/s units.
They have not even delivered 1TH/s of hash power yet.
They have shipped no singles or mini-rig units yet, they do not have an operational prototype for those units yet.
The bulk of their hashrate ordered is for singles and mini-rigs. If those customers canceled their orders but there were still hundreds of Jalapeno's in queue, they would be faced with a cash crunch and still have obligations to continue operations.

[dogie]

Let's also not forget the thread from a few weeks back where BFL forced a refund on an unhappy customer.  Doesn't sound like a company that's about to go under to me.

Fixed

[Minor Miner]

D Man;
Think you have a few zero and consonant problems.

[rustyh17]

Dogie,

You get what you give in this world. Whatever you focus on becomes your truth. You
seem to see evil intent in others, but your answer is to respond with evil intent. Does
that really make sense in the scheme of things?

Your words hold no value and have absolutely no chance of achieving the intended effect.

We are not Scottish. You are not William Wallace. BFL are not the English. This is not a
field of battle. Please wipe the blue and white paint off your face and go watch a Survivor
re-run.

Sincerely,

The vast majority of BFL customers

[dogie]

Dogie,

You get what you give in this world. Whatever you focus on becomes your truth. You
seem to see evil intent in others, but your answer is to respond with evil intent. Does
that really make sense in the scheme of things?

Your words hold no value and have absolutely no chance of achieving the intended effect.

We are not Scottish. You are not William Wallace. BFL are not the English. This is not a
field of battle. Please wipe the blue and white paint off your face and go watch a Survivor
re-run.

Sincerely,

The vast majority of BFL customers

Then stop making shitty QQ threads.

[PuertoLibre]

My crystal ball is shuddering terribly.

It says, shit is about to hit the fan.

Horrorscope of the day, if you are in, get out. Quickly!

[k9quaint]

Again, following the idea of this hypothetical if all orders were refunded, new customers would be lining up to give BFL money as they already have been - with the added bonus of no more people in front of them any more.

Your supposition fails if a significant portion of those old customers could not get their refunds because BFL ran out of money. People will not pre-order from a company that has to declare bankruptcy. BFL will not get to mine or ship to new customers if the old ones don't get their refunds.

Your argument only works if you assume that BFL has tons of money. Your only evidence of this is a statement by Josh that they still have all of the pre-order money. The original purpose of collecting the pre-order money was to fund the development of the ASIC device (which took 7 months longer than planned). Magically, at the end of this extended development cycle no money was spent.

[Bonam]

BFL is finally mass shipping Jalapenos... I'd guess that now that it's proven they can make and ship these things in reasonable numbers, they are probably getting more orders for them than ever. So this whole "call to arms" plan is silly. More likely the OP actually does have a BFL order and just wants to move forward in the queue by people ahead of him cancelling.

[Minor Miner]

D Man;
Think you have a few zero and consonant problems.

I mistyped GH/s instead of MH/s.  What are the consonant issues?

Not important.   there were two ways you could fix it.  Change a G to an M or get rid of ,000

[FCTaiChi]

Dogie,

You get what you give in this world. Whatever you focus on becomes your truth. You
seem to see evil intent in others, but your answer is to respond with evil intent. Does
that really make sense in the scheme of things?

Your words hold no value and have absolutely no chance of achieving the intended effect.

We are not Scottish. You are not William Wallace. BFL are not the English. This is not a
field of battle. Please wipe the blue and white paint off your face and go watch a Survivor
re-run.

Sincerely,

The vast majority of BFL customers

If someone was stealing from my neighbors, and the thief had convinced them to give him more, and that he was their best friend, by showing how charitable they were, even while yelling in their faces....  I would feel the need to try to wake them up, or take down the thief.  Saying that he has, "evil intent" is missing the point.  Violence is necessary.  Every time you eat you kill something.  Pretending to be above it all gets you nowhere.

It's foolish of you to go after dogie for this.  All of you.  Sure talk about his logic, discuss the holes in his plan.  When you attack him personally calling him a crybaby...  The idea is to do something for once.  How can you say this is just qq?  Going after someone?  If someone came at you and punched you in the face is that qq?  

Sure there are more important issues in the world, but this is happening in our backyard.  I'm not sure that cancelling orders would do much..  The chance that they could cover every preorder if they were cancelled is very small.  Funny how the talk goes to how expensive things are sometimes, and others how they have plenty of extra money.  Oh wait, maybe they could just spend some of their mined holdings and pay everyone off..

[k9quaint]

Again, following the idea of this hypothetical if all orders were refunded, new customers would be lining up to give BFL money as they already have been - with the added bonus of no more people in front of them any more.

Your supposition fails if a significant portion of those old customers could not get their refunds because BFL ran out of money. People will not pre-order from a company that has to declare bankruptcy. BFL will not get to mine or ship to new customers if the old ones don't get their refunds.

Your argument only works if you assume that BFL has tons of money. Your only evidence of this is a statement by Josh that they still have all of the pre-order money. The original purpose of collecting the pre-order money was to fund the development of the ASIC device (which took 7 months longer than planned). Magically, at the end of this extended development cycle no money was spent.

My argument is also leveraging the past history where BFL refunds aren't given out instantly, but over the course of a few days. '

So, more simply, if $5 million (or whatever number you want to put here) goes out on the 14th, the current demand in the market for ASICs would easily dictate 5 million+ being right back on BFL's books before the 21st when all of those refunds were sent.

The reason why you don't believe this part:

"the current demand in the market for ASICs would easily dictate 5 million+ being right back on BFL's books"

Is negative emotion tied to BFL's history, instead of looking at the present and facts.

People would have to know the refunds took place in order to realize that BFL's order queue had cleared. So BFL would have to come up with the "$5 million" and send it out and then declare that all pre-orders were cleared. If BFL tried to say they had no more obligations to pre-orders before actually paying them all off, people would declare on these forums (and others) that they had not received their refund yet. So no, BFL would not instantly gain back "$5 million" in market pre-orders (I doubt their website and back office could process that many in so short a time).

Any mass refund scenario would obviously play out over weeks as momentum and awareness of it built.
Your scenario depends on every single BFL order refunding all at the same time and then $5 million of new pre-orders appearing instantly to fund the refunds. I do not think that likely or even possible.

[Miner99er]

After this and the 7990 thread... SMDH.

Dogie, stop... just stop, ok... you're doing no one a service with your ideas or information (lack ther of it) and every time you go to post something, It's pretty much troll-bait.

Jalapenos are shipping. Singles and Mini singles will "Soon"^TM Along with the 500 Gh/s Mini rigs. If they keep competitive on price they'll sell, if they can't the free market will fold the company.

I'm currently looking to order a Jupiter miner cause I don't see BFL moving onward a generation 2 product after this fiasco. I may be wrong, but I'm voting with my wallet.

[k9quaint]

They are sending out equipment now, despite the longing to hold on to the idea that they aren't.  If BFL's order system suddenly had zero orders and tons of refunds, my guess is that they would continue to allow new orders (where they get money right away) in while they send the refunds out.  People are waiting already, you can be assured they would be waiting in the odd and unrealistic case presented.  This is more than sufficient time to make up the difference, and then some - as BFL could now charge more for each individual unit due to the current market forces, as has been illustrated.

1) 93% of their orders (when measured by hash-rate here http://bfl.ptz.ro/) are in singles and mini-rigs. By BFL's own admission none of those have shipped yet.
2) By BFL's own admission, the 1st of 11 months of Jalapeno pre-orders have shipped. That is roughly 9% of 7% which is 0.63% of the hash rate that they owe their customers.
3) By BFL's own admission, they do not have working singles or mini-rigs that they can ship and there is no firm ETA on when 93% of their pre-orders can actually begin shipping.

If the bulk of single and mini-rig sales cancel but the bulk of Jalapeno's stay, BFL could see $6-7 million dollars suddenly vanish from their coffers. They would still need weeks to ship all the Jalapeno's they owe.

[PuertoLibre]

They are sending out equipment now, despite the longing to hold on to the idea that they aren't.  If BFL's order system suddenly had zero orders and tons of refunds, my guess is that they would continue to allow new orders (where they get money right away) in while they send the refunds out.  People are waiting already, you can be assured they would be waiting in the odd and unrealistic case presented.  This is more than sufficient time to make up the difference, and then some - as BFL could now charge more for each individual unit due to the current market forces, as has been illustrated.

1) 93% of their orders (when measured by hash-rate here http://bfl.ptz.ro/) are in singles and mini-rigs. By BFL's own admission none of those have shipped yet.
2) By BFL's own admission, the 1st of 11 months of Jalapeno pre-orders have shipped. That is roughly 9% of 7% which is 0.63% of the hash rate that they owe their customers.
3) By BFL's own admission, they do not have working singles or mini-rigs that they can ship and there is no firm ETA on when 93% of their pre-orders can actually begin shipping.

If the bulk of single and mini-rig sales cancel but the bulk of Jalapeno's stay, BFL could see $6-7 million dollars suddenly vanish from their coffers. They would still need weeks to ship all the Jalapeno's they owe.

Shit, you and your dirty facts!

The folks at BFL went through all this trouble to make an anthill into a mountain and here you are giving us facts that this mountain is only 12 inches across.

(Master BFL Shill)

[Littleshop]

My crystal ball is shuddering terribly.

It says, shit is about to hit the fan.

Horrorscope of the day, if you are in, get out. Quickly!

You are quite bad at generating FUD.  Good FUD is slick and subtle.  And if it is good FUD you would only need to say it once and it will do its magic.  Your total desperation to attack BFL makes it almost comical.  Now that BFL is shipping in volume it makes you look quite desperate. 

[k9quaint]

My crystal ball is shuddering terribly.

It says, shit is about to hit the fan.

Horrorscope of the day, if you are in, get out. Quickly!

You are quite bad at generating FUD.  Good FUD is slick and subtle.  And if it is good FUD you would only need to say it once and it will do its magic.  Your total desperation to attack BFL makes it almost comical.  Now that BFL is shipping in volume it makes you look quite desperate. 

Who needs FUD? One can simply quote stats from the same website that demonstrates BFL is shipping product to also demonstrate that after 2 months of shipping, they have shipped 0.63% of the hash rate that they promised. With no ETA from BFL on when the products that comprise 93% of BFL's promised product will come out of design and enter production, I would say that nobody needs to make up FUD.

Supporting links and evidence:
1) 93% of BFL's orders (when measured by hash-rate here http://bfl.ptz.ro/) are in singles and mini-rigs. By BFL's own admission none of those have shipped yet.
2) By BFL's own admission, the 1st of 11 months of Jalapeno pre-orders have shipped. That is roughly 9% of 7% which is 0.63% of the total hash rate that they owe their customers.
3) By BFL's own admission, they do not have working singles or mini-rigs that they can ship and there is no firm ETA on when 93% of their pre-orders can actually begin shipping.

[Xian01]

My crystal ball is shuddering terribly.
It says, shit is about to hit the fan.
Horrorscope of the day, if you are in, get out. Quickly!

You are quite bad at generating FUD.  Good FUD is slick and subtle.  And if it is good FUD you would only need to say it once and it will do its magic.  Your total desperation to attack BFL makes it almost comical.  Now that BFL is shipping in volume it makes you look quite desperate. 

 * Checks his mailbox today. Jaw drops when seeing "Attorney General of Missouri" envelope & letterhead. Whistles innocently *

[Starlightbreaker]

My crystal ball is shuddering terribly.
It says, shit is about to hit the fan.
Horrorscope of the day, if you are in, get out. Quickly!

You are quite bad at generating FUD.  Good FUD is slick and subtle.  And if it is good FUD you would only need to say it once and it will do its magic.  Your total desperation to attack BFL makes it almost comical.  Now that BFL is shipping in volume it makes you look quite desperate. 

 * Checks his mailbox today. Jaw drops when seeing "Attorney General of Missouri" envelope & letterhead. Whistles innocently *

+bitcointip...

....aww shit this is not reddit.

[k9quaint]

1) 93% of their orders (when measured by hash-rate here http://bfl.ptz.ro/) are in singles and mini-rigs. By BFL's own admission none of those have shipped yet.

bfl.ptz.ro?

This is the disclaimer directly from their site:

This tables only show information that is gatherd in our database NOT all the orders from BFL

While that might be a nice place to get a very rough estimate of where things are, it's hardly a place worth coming up with a fixed percentage of what the actual orders are.  You can go on there right now and put in an order for 10, 20, 30 Jalapenos/LS/S/Rigs, and as far as I can tell, it will be added - whether or not it's a legitimate order.

Why would someone do this?  The same reasons as someone would consistently spread FUD about BFL, which can be more selfishly motivated than simple frustration.  Or they made a mistake.  Or they double-entered and can't change the original. 

The site is a good idea, but again, is good for little more than the roughest of estimates given the collection techniques.

I am using the data that the BFL fanbois have used to "prove" BFL is shipping in volume. If you want to discard that dataset, you must also discard the idea that BFL is shipping in volume since that is the only source external to BFL that demonstrates volume shipping. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by using that data, if you don't want that benefit I will be happy to ask you to prove that BFL is shipping in volume.

You will be left with 10 "I got my Jalapeno" forum posts, and a picture of Jalapeno cases posted on BFL's website.

2) By BFL's own admission, the 1st of 11 months of Jalapeno pre-orders have shipped. That is roughly 9% of 7% which is 0.63% of the hash rate that they owe their customers.
3) By BFL's own admission, they do not have working singles or mini-rigs that they can ship and there is no firm ETA on when 93% of their pre-orders can actually begin shipping.

If the bulk of single and mini-rig sales cancel but the bulk of Jalapeno's stay, BFL could see $6-7 million dollars suddenly vanish from their coffers. They would still need weeks to ship all the Jalapeno's they owe.

So now we're focused specifically on the cancelling of only little single/single/rigs in OP's hypothetical.  Fair enough. 

I have always been focused on how order cancellations could negatively affect BFL's business.

All they have done is reset the game, in effect.  Sure, all those millions are now going back to refunds.  Now the first person to order a LS/S after that will be first in line.  If they are producing in 2 weeks, that's when they get theirs.  4 weeks? 6 weeks? Doesn't matter, they are at the front of the line.

They would also have the new theoretical option of buying a jalapeno which is shipping and no longer has the huge pre-order queue.

This whole experiment has been completely ludicrous because of this simple point, that wouldn't change:

People are willing to pay tons of money for ASICS right now.  BFL is shipping ASICS.  If everybody currently in the queue jumped out there would be plenty more to jump right back in - and, as has been said before, BFL could charge them more to do it.

$/BTC are more powerful motivators than butthurt.

Again, your latest scenario contends that all the people cancel instantly and all the potential customers know exactly how many orders are left in BFL's queue. A mass of order cancellations is not going to inspire people to line up for BFL. Quite the opposite in fact:

1) They would not be at the front of the line given there might be 10,000 people still in front of them at any given time. BFL's order book is not public, we can only guess with statistical sampling.

2) With no ship date for the first version of the SC and Mini-rig products and a wave of refund requests hitting a company with murky financials. Only a complete optimist would order a product from BFL given the alternative products available from Avalon, ASICMiner, and even KNCMiner (since we are talking about pre-production units).

[FCTaiChi]

They are literally sending out jalapeno units.  I don't know how many, I don't really care.  Apparently they've covered the June orders through July 20th.  This is what is important though:

I think your the disconnect here is that you are so invested in this (ideologically, monetarily idk) that you aren't willing to take a look at what BFL has done wrong.  You talk about objectivity, but how can you ignore the lists thrown at you?  You just keep saying how ridiculous it is and the op's idea wouldn't work, so what would work?  Why do you think it's wrong to try to fight this?

[k9quaint]

Again, your latest scenario contends that all the people cancel instantly and all the potential customers know exactly how many orders are left in BFL's queue. A mass of order cancellations is not going to inspire people to line up for BFL. Quite the opposite in fact:

1) They would not be at the front of the line given there might be 10,000 people still in front of them at any given time. BFL's order book is not public, we can only guess with statistical sampling.

2) With no ship date for the first version of the SC and Mini-rig products and a wave of refund requests hitting a company with murky financials. Only a complete optimist would order a product from BFL given the alternative products available from Avalon, ASICMiner, and even KNCMiner (since we are talking about pre-production units).

I'm sorry, but how can this:

all the people cancel instantly

coexist in OP's bizarro world with this?

They would not be at the front of the line given there might be 10,000 people still in front of them at any given time

I am trying my best to imagine this insane idea ever happening, which isn't easy given the sheer ridiculousness, but at least I'm being consistent with it

You miss quoted me leaving out the key information which says that you are insisting that people will cancel instantly. I bolded the entire quote and I repeat it here for you now:
your latest scenario contends that all the people cancel instantly
I have been contending that people would not in fact cancel instantly as you have now twice proposed. Your misrepresentation of my position reveals more about you than it does me.

The free market right now is paying BTC2 for 300 MH/s.  BFL is selling individual units (again, RIGHT NOW, also in dogie-world) that put out 5000 MH/s.  Now even as an ASICMINER stock holder I can say without question that BTC2 for 300 MH/s is overpriced.  So let's take a little bit off to deal with the irrational exuberance that got it to BTC2 for that and I'll say it's worth BTC1.  BFL's unit is still doing 16.66 times that.

16.66 * $120? $2,000.  That's if people paid at half what they paid per MH/s for ASICMINER USBs. 

I can tell it's very, very difficult for some people to look past the accumulated [distrust/dislike/bias/desire to keep current Avalon or ASICMINER profits] and examine a hypothetical question, but BFL would come out of OP's impossible idea with an insanely good profit margin.

Their profit margin would be improved by a flood of refunds, but right now they would have to sell more units for that to matter. Who in their right mind would add a pre-order now to wait another 90 days (according to Josh) to get their shipment? The only way it would work is if BFL admitted that the entire Bitcoin marketplace had lost faith in them and every single person asked for a refund. Your contention is that this would be a good thing, and that people would view that as a sign of strength and add their pre-orders to the pile. Nonsense.

My contention is that it would not matter, they would be out of business since their cash to buy parts would be gone, their cash to pay salaries and rent would be gone. While they might be able to mine with a few dozen units they showed in a photograph. They haven't shipped enough units to realize any profit, they have 11 months of burn rate to make back. If they haven't spent any of their pre-order money then where did the last 11 months of operating funds come from? Not that imaginary private-equity group, that has been debunked and even BFL doesn't bring it up anymore.

You keep bringing up the OP. You should read it again. He doesn't say every BFL order should cancel, he says everyone on these forums who complain about BFL should organize a "mass refund exodus". That means a lot of BFL customers, not all the BFL customers. Hit BFL in the pocket book for $2 million or so and see what happens. BFL will still have months of back-orders to fill and be faced with a $2 million tab and a lot of bad press.

The more you post, the more I realize that you are blind to BFL's actual statistics and are skating by on hope alone.

[k9quaint]

For an analysis of that you can look back at my prior posts, and if you want to try and refute any of the points, please be my guest.

I tried. You resorted to misquoting me and then fell on your own sword trying to discredit the data supporting my position. You cling to your absurd notion that $5 million of refunds asked for in a public campaign would help BFL. In short, you have offered little actual evidence to demonstrate that any of your criticisms of the OP hold water.

As someone who has seen the way most of these BFL threads go, the question I consistently ask when reading someone's posts is Cui bono.  Conveniently, a quick look through someone's post history usually reveals the answer.

Yes. I have noticed that instead of addressing what is said, you address who is saying it. Thereby you neatly sidestep having to deal with actual evidence and data.

The list at http://bfl.ptz.ro/ was very convenient for people who want to prove that BFL is shipping in volume (yourself included). But as soon as that list demonstrated something that you didn't like you attack it as invalid or tainted data. You can have one or the other, but not both.

Either demonstrate alternative proof that BFL is shipping in volume, or stop claiming it. Until then, either accept the list as a statistical sample from which general characteristics of BFL's order book can be inferred. Or stop claiming that BFL is shipping any sort of volume because that is the only evidence external to BFL that they are.

[k9quaint]

You miss quoted me leaving out the key information which says that you are insisting that people will cancel instantly. I bolded the entire quote and I repeat it here for you now:
your latest scenario contends that all the people cancel instantly
I have been contending that people would not in fact cancel instantly as you have now twice proposed. Your misrepresentation of my position reveals more about you than it does me.

Ahhh post history.  Let's take a quick trip down memory lane.  If you trace the conversation back far enough we find this post:

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

you dont have the (hundreds of TH of mining equipment ) because if you have it why you are delaying it and not shipping for the buyer?

Hypothetically

Hypothetically

It's cool if you want to be a troll and all, but please at least put some effort into pretending to read.

The hypothetical is what the company will do. A given was that the company is holding hundreds of terahashes worth of equipment.
Tigerfree was correct in pointing out the entire hypothetical was irrelevant because the given was not true.

Josh could have also said:
Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with a call to cancel pre-orders yet having delivered 100% of orders is going to do?
You would be correct in pointing out that the hypothetical is irrelevant to the current discussion of BFL because they have not delivered 100% of their pre-orders. It is not a troll to point out a flaw in a rule for a hypothetical.

Notice the line in there that started all of this?

Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Now after that, there was a lot of tangential conversations, but this is what I've been discussing since then.

You most certainly have not been discussing it, but I am glad you finally agreed to address my original post instead of bouncing all over the place. Inaba's hypothetical was wrong because they do not have hundreds of TH/s of mining equipment. There is barely 100TH/s of mining equipment in operation today. You have been defending an obvious falsehood on Josh's part and Dogie was right to call him out on it. Since one of the givens in the hypothetical was obviously false, it is irrelevant to this conversation.

I will address the rest of your wall of text in a second post. 

[k9quaint]

The list at http://bfl.ptz.ro/ was very convenient for people who want to prove that BFL is shipping in volume (yourself included). But as soon as that list demonstrated something that you didn't like you attack it as invalid or tainted data. You can have one or the other, but not both.

This is straight-up false.  Please direct me to the instance where I attempted to use that site to "prove" BFL was shipping in volume.

Edit: Bullshit was a bit strong.  Seriously though, don't make things up.

Fine. The list is bullshit. You never claimed BFL is shipping in volume. My apologies.

Please provide evidence BFL has shipped more than a couple of dozen Jalapeno's or let us assume that they have not since there is no evidence to suggest it.
If you cannot provide that evidence, then please explain the following:
Why 66 days after their first unit shipped they are still unable to ship units in volume.
Explain why $5 million in pre-order cancellations would improve this situation.
Explain where their operating capital for the last 11 months and the next few weeks came from.

[k9quaint]

... It's a hypothetical. 

hy·po·thet·i·cal  (hp-tht-kl) also hy·po·thet·ic (-thtk)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or based on a hypothesis: a hypothetical situation. See Synonyms at theoretical.
2.
a. Suppositional; uncertain.

I wasn't making judgements about what they had or didn't have.  I was arguing specifically from the perspective of that hypothetical.  If you weren't, that's on you. 

Ah. Finally, we get to the root of the problem. You do not understand a hypothetical construct in logic.

You could say that hypothetically speaking given 2+2=5, that BFL is right and I am wrong.

I will rightfully point out that 2+2 does not in fact equal 5 and there is no circumstance under which it would. Then I would ask why are you bringing up some random nonsensical hypothetical to derail the thread.

Inaba said that hypothetically speaking, given that BFL has hundreds of TH/s of equipment, if everyone canceled their order BFL would be happy.

It was rightfully pointed out that it was an absurd hypothetical
you dont have the (hundreds of TH of mining equipment ) because if you have it why you are delaying it and not shipping for the buyer?
and then you jumped to his defense.

Explain why that hypothetical situation was in any way relevant to the OP's plan.

[ralree]

Please do as he says so I can get my units faster.  Thx.

[k9quaint]

... It's a hypothetical.  

hy·po·thet·i·cal  (hp-tht-kl) also hy·po·thet·ic (-thtk)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or based on a hypothesis: a hypothetical situation. See Synonyms at theoretical.
2.
a. Suppositional; uncertain.

I wasn't making judgements about what they had or didn't have.  I was arguing specifically from the perspective of that hypothetical.  If you weren't, that's on you.  

Ah. Finally, we get to the root of the problem. You do not understand a hypothetical construct in logic.

You could say that hypothetically speaking given 2+2=5, that BFL is right and I am wrong.

I will rightfully point out that 2+2 does not in fact equal 5 and there is no circumstance under which it would. Then I would ask why are you bringing up some random nonsensical hypothetical to derail the thread.

Inaba said that hypothetically speaking, given that BFL has hundreds of TH/s of equipment, if everyone canceled their order BFL would be happy.

It was rightfully pointed out that it was an absurd hypothetical
you dont have the (hundreds of TH of mining equipment ) because if you have it why you are delaying it and not shipping for the buyer?
and then you jumped to his defense.

Explain why that hypothetical situation was in any way relevant to the OP's plan.

You're trying to compare discrete numbers to numbers that you don't have.  Again, and for like the whatevereth time here, I don't care if you want to add more rules to the hypothetical situation afterwards and argue on and on about it.  That's not what I was talking about.

No, I am comparing two situations that are absurd. One is that 2+2 can equal 5. The other is that BFL already possesses "hundreds of TH/s of equipment". You have already confused GH/s and MH/s. Let me write that number in MH/s so I can be sure you understand. BFL is claiming to have at least 200,000,000 MH/s. The entire Bitcoin network hash rate is 100,000,000 MH/s. It would take sixty thousand Jalapenos to generate that much hash power.

That particular Hypothetical situation was relevant because it addressed the ridiculousness of the plan before even getting TO that point.

You make the assertion that "market forces" would appear and rescue a failing company drowning in bad press. That is magical thinking.

At a higher level, a ridiculous hypothetical was a perfectly valid response to the OP's absurd plan.  I posted a similar one just a few posts before all of this started.  It's just arguing for fun.  Isn't that what these BFL posts are all about anyway?

You think that getting hit with a wave of refunds will help BFL. That is the absurd part of this thread. You say you don't care about BFLs finances and won't bother to examine them because you are not their accountant. That is the root of your fallacy. You think BFL could survive a wave of refunds because magical "market forces" will appear with bags of money to save them. Unless you dispel that notion, every criticism of BFL will seem absurd to you since with infinite market support they are bound to produce your product eventually. You should take a good look at the top level of the Custom Hardware forum and note that it is filled with threads about buying ASICs from companies other than BFL. BFL has competition. Their product is not the top performer like they claimed it would be. The market forces are unlikely to benefit them.

You noted that ASICMiner products are selling, but so are KNCMiner products. KNCMiner are pricing 175GH/s at $3800. BFL is pricing 50GH/s at $2500. Neither company has shipped that product yet, or demonstrated a working prototype of that product. Your market forces are indeed present, but I don't think they are on your side.

[ThatDGuy]

Your market forces are indeed present, but I don't think they are on your side.

See, this is why it's becoming less and less worth my time to try and explain anything.  Despite countless attempts to enlighten otherwise, I don't have a side.  At least, not in this particular space.  My side is ASICs being more readily available.  It is also consumers being able to attain them in a relatively fair way without any one company monopolizing.  You know, the basic principles behind Bitcoin: decentralization.

Below is just one of many examples of market forces in action, specific to the the how they would behave in OP's ludicrous suggestion.

Please do as he says so I can get my units faster.  Thx.

If BFL suddenly has a shorter pre-order list, my estimation is that they would get more orders coming in because people could receive them in a timeframe that is easier to judge.  You estimate differently.  Nothing will change that.

[FCTaiChi]

Wow ThatDGuy, I love how you pretended that you weren't insulting me in your response.

So I'll ask again what would be the appropriate way to handle this situation?

[ThatDGuy]

Wow ThatDGuy, I love how you pretended that you weren't insulting me in your response.

So I'll ask again what would be the appropriate way to handle this situation?

Well unfortunately you've once again left me with very little context as to what you're referencing.

As for "pretending I wasn't insulting" I re-read my post to try and see what could have come off insulting and the best I could come up with was this:

I'm not sure if I'm understanding the question properly here, perhaps there is a language barrier making it difficult.  My guess is that you're asking:

If suggesting there was a language barrier was insulting, I am sorry.  My reasoning for it was from reading your post:

I think your the disconnect here is that you are so invested in this (ideologically, monetarily idk) that you aren't willing to take a look at what BFL has done wrong.  

This sentence was made difficult to understand, either you were trying to say *I* was the disconnect using the incorrect "your" instead of "you're" or you didn't want the if.

You talk about objectivity, but how can you ignore the lists thrown at you?  You just keep saying how ridiculous it is and the op's idea wouldn't work, so what would work?  Why do you think it's wrong to try to fight this?

This section in particular wasn't clear.  Why do I think it's wrong to try and fight -what-??

This was a question I specifically asked you in my response before attempting to answer based on my best guess at what you were asking:

"Why do I think it's wrong to try and fight BFL?"

The answer to which is simple:  This isn't war and it's not personal (for me, but clearly is for others).  You don't "fight" companies.  

You either buy, or you don't buy.  It's that easy.  If enough people were so fed up with BFL, they would have already gotten refunds.

So, getting back to your current question of

So I'll ask again what would be the appropriate way to handle this situation?

What "situation" are you talking about?

[PuertoLibre]

My crystal ball is shuddering terribly.

It says, shit is about to hit the fan.

Horrorscope of the day, if you are in, get out. Quickly!

You are quite bad at generating FUD.  Good FUD is slick and subtle.  And if it is good FUD you would only need to say it once and it will do its magic.  

As K9 mentioned earlier, Who needs FUD?

The truth is much more potent than any "FUD" could ever be.

Moving beyond that, the information that lead to me writting that warning post has no presence on this thread. You don't know what lead to those words or the warning. Don't you think I would have posted it and described the situation clearly so you'd understand "a FUD" scenario?

Why didn't I write more than three lines? Consider that. I want you to be utterly dismissive of it.

I posted a simple warning without any context. I imagine eventually that piece of information will become widely available. Though honestly, I don't see how it would actually reach the forum. I can only imagine that BFL would have to post it themselves as a notice to it's customers, then again I doubt they actually would as it might hurt confidence in deliveries.

Anyway, I didn't post more info because I want you to hang on. In this situation, I want you to be "stuck".

No "FUD" is necessary, you just don't know what I am going on about. Dogie by accident or intention hit upon it. Though I deleted any references so that people would not know what my statements were about. I posted it as subtle and without context as I could.

Because I know that when it actually hits you or impacts your order(s) it will be too late for you to actually do anything about it. You'll just have to wait, along with everyone else. Anyone who has gotten out "by now" has already done so for the right reasons. Different things motivated them to act on it. Everyone else still left in the order queue is left to gamble their order in whatever way the outcome becomes.

Your total desperation to attack BFL makes it almost comical.  Now that BFL is shipping in volume it makes you look quite desperate.  

You know, it almost sounds like you are worried about something.

Don't worry, just be happy!

Edit: Everything will be alright in "2 weeks"®, I promise.

[PuertoLibre]

At K9, since you are having some trouble with ThatDGuy.

Here is a helpful link that should give you more of a boost in your argument. Just because BFL says they have shipped through a certain date, does not mean they have actually fulfilled all units up to that date. Proof?:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3122-shipping-but-not-your-full-order.html

?Master of illusions?

The false appearance of having delivered everything (just jally of course) up to a certain date is...just that...an illusion. You have to give it to "them", they sure know how to do a good mind job on their customers. (In my opinion only)

If it weren't for K9 and his facts, you'd have almost have believed it were true...

[dogie]

More likely the OP actually does have a BFL order and just wants to move forward in the queue by people ahead of him cancelling.

The biggest flaw of many in the proposed idea.

There's more than one reason why people have vested interest in BFL failing completely.  OP was honest enough to put it right in his disclaimer:

Edit: Added disclaimer, I have investments in ASICMiner and Avalon, however it doesn't change my outlook towards BFL. If I had been around at the time, I'd also have 10 preorders and going mental like you all.

I put a disclaimer but as I said a few pages back, I literally couldn't care less what company it is - it just happens that I wasn't around at the time of the BFL bubble. IF ASICMiner said "fuck it, 51% time" then I'd equally be against them.

[dogie]

Note that OP himself was not able/chose not to aside from a few more emotionally-driven posts laced with the usual anti-BFL sentiment which becomes apparent from those with current heavy investments in other ASIC companies.

xD The fuck? Just because we all haven't been brainwashed so much by our captives that you spent what, 2-3 hours, defending a company who is screwing you royally.

I've said it before I've said it again - I don't care. Eat the shit sandwich, don't eat the shit sandwich, its up to you.

I think your the disconnect here is that you are so invested in this (ideologically, monetarily idk) that you aren't willing to take a look at what BFL has done wrong.  You talk about objectivity, but how can you ignore the lists thrown at you?  You just keep saying how ridiculous it is and the op's idea wouldn't work, so what would work?  Why do you think it's wrong to try to fight this?

+1

Its almost as if you are a shill

[k9quaint]

Your market forces are indeed present, but I don't think they are on your side.

See, this is why it's becoming less and less worth my time to try and explain anything.  Despite countless attempts to enlighten otherwise, I don't have a side.  At least, not in this particular space.  My side is ASICs being more readily available.  It is also consumers being able to attain them in a relatively fair way without any one company monopolizing.  You know, the basic principles behind Bitcoin: decentralization.

Walk that talk for a while, then come back and try to sell it.

Below is just one of many examples of market forces in action, specific to the the how they would behave in OP's ludicrous suggestion.

Please do as he says so I can get my units faster.  Thx.

If BFL suddenly has a shorter pre-order list, my estimation is that they would get more orders coming in because people could receive them in a timeframe that is easier to judge.  You estimate differently.  Nothing will change that.

That may be true.
1) You have a fundamental lack of understanding of reputation risk
2) You are unwilling to question the veracity of statements BFL has made.

I suppose you are type of person to walk into a burning movie theater because you see all the other customers fleeing. You figure you will get good seats for the show since all the other customers left!   

[k9quaint]

1.  Do I? Here's an example, provided conveniently on another thread by OP, of just what kind of damage BFL's reputation risk is doing: (Is this the burning theater you're referencing? That's a pricey movie ticket! )

0_o People are paying Avalon level prices for a product that:
1) Doesnt even have a prototype yet
2) Has a queue, even if you are at the front
3) Unknown timeframe
4) Lower hash rate.
OP

For context, this is for a 6/23/12 BFL 60 GH/s order.  It's up to 98 btc.  These are the market forces that I've mentioned and you previously equated to me believing in magic:

To my knowledge, there has not been a mass refund (yet). BFL has not suffered catastrophic reputational damage. We know there are people in the world who have more money than sense, you don't need to post an auction to prove it.

Do you see people still investing in Bitcoin Savings and Trust?
Do you see people still putting their money in Bitcoinica?
Do you see people still putting their money in Mybitcoin.com?
Do you see people still buying bASIC devices?
All those companies imploded. Why didn't customers pile in to save them?

2. I'm plenty willing to question their statements, in a rational manner, and given their long-term and recent history.  This combined with anecdotal evidence from the forums has provided me with all of the information I need as a consumer put a risk assessment on BFL.  I'm not willing to speculate about supposed conspiracies.

P.S. Despite the fact that we disagree on some things, I do respect your opinion and can understand your perspective as well.

As long as you cling to the idea that BFL has unlimited money, you will never see them at risk of imploding.
Clearly you believe they have segregated all of their customer orders in an escrow account and spawned by magic the operating funds for a 20 person company (plus consultants) over the last 11 months.
Here is Inaba/Josh saying back in July 27, 2012 that the BFL singles were being prepped to ship and mini-rigs were being assembled.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90333.msg994223#msg994223
Clearly, their business plans at that time did not include an additional 10 months of operating costs. Where did that money come from?
No venture capital group or private equity group has claimed to have invested in BFL. No angels have claimed them either.

You say that you are not their accountant and therefore you are unconcerned by any financial details of BFL. That my friend, is what is called willful ignorance.

There is already good competition in the ASIC community. More is on the way.
Bitcoin would have been better served if BFL had never existed, that money would have been spent on Avalon and ASICMiner (and perhaps other ventures). Of course, BFL was great for people who already had mining equipment (and did not order from BFL). BFL kept millions of dollars from being invested in actual hash rate and increasing the profit margin of every existing miner.

[hexed]

Good lord K9.. might want to find someone else to argue with cause you are getting your ass handed to you in this thread.  At least Puerto has the sense to just make a couple of broad pop-shots at BFL.. but ThatDGuy is eating your lunch.  I'd find an irrational BFL "fanboi" to argue with in another thread.

As for the original topic, which I have already commented on.. I will summarize my projections for the future:

1.  There will be no mass cancellation of orders... ever.  Unless another company starts shipping as soon as orders come in, and they sell their product for anywhere CLOSE to the current hashing capability/$$$ ratio that BFL is, it isn't going to happen.   I've said it before and I'll say it again, people have been waiting for close to a year now.. do you think with all the reported progress from BFL that they are suddenly going to lose this patience?  It's not going to happen.  (disclaimer before someone like k9 cherry picks this point to argue.. I said "reported progress".  It could still be a lie/overstatement/fluff)

2.  BFL is not going bankrupt.  If this "mass exodus" would have happened about 6 months ago, I could have seen this as a possibility (even though 6 months ago, the idea of a mass exodus was even more impossible than now).  6 months ago, they did not have a working prototype.  Well now they do and are shipping out, not at their full 400 a day capacity.  Let's say for arguments sake that ONLY the jalapenos are being made and ever will be because they decided not to continue making or designing large hashing machines.  They still have the jalapenos designed and working, and if they cranked out about 2000 of these things in a short amount of time, they could mine 1 MILLION DOLLARS in a month.  That is only 2000 of these products.  If they did way more.. they could definitely make enough to issue refunds and keep the doors open.  Then additionally, you think if they have jalapenos ready for shipment, and no queue, that people wouldn't order?  Sorry, people would much rather pay $300 for a 5GH/s miner form a supposed "horrible company" than pay $4000 for 5GH/s worth of USB miners @ 300MH/s each from a supposed "good" company.

Seriously, I would bet my house on these two points.  This is all very similar to the whole Electronic Arts arguments EVERY time they screw over their customer base. " Sniff Sniff Cry Cry... Everyone.. let's BAND TOGETHER and choose to NEVER buy an EA product until they get their act together".  The next version of that game comes out and it does RECORD SALES.  People have said the same thing about Call of Duty OVER and OVER and OVER again.  Before it comes out, TONS of threads to BOYCOTT BOYCOTT BOYCOTT!!  Then when the game comes out, tons of threads on "I'll never buy Activision games, or I'll be passing up on the next Call of Duty cause Activision are liars and cheats and a horrible company"  and they even go as far as to start a stupid petition (like that EVER does anything) but then the next Call of Duty comes out.  RECORD SALES and the same people who were screaming to boycott are back on the forums again saying they bought the game and this time we need to boycott the next Call of Duty.. AGAIN.  Rinse and repeat while Activision laughs all the way to the bank.

[nbtcminer]

Do you see people still buying bASIC devices?

While you may not believe it; BFL has delivered quite a few ASIC devices (albeit only Jalapenos at the moment). What makes me most sad is that those who are the loudest detractors of BFL actually hold / have BFL mining equipment. Talk about talking out of the side of your mouth.

[k9quaint]

We know there are people in the world who have more money than sense

Perfect concession, plenty sufficient to end that conversation on.  Way past the hypothetical now.

I was going to bring up that not a single group buy of BFL's chips succeeded. The only group buy that has not given up is one that is asking for 100% escrow via John K (meaning zero money given to BFL until the chips are shipped). Perhaps BFL will agree given they haven't had any successful buys. That is not a market clamoring for BFL product. That is a market that is very wary of BFL and unwilling to extend them any more benefit of the doubt.

2. I'm plenty willing to question their statements, in a rational manner, and given their long-term and recent history.  This combined with anecdotal evidence from the forums has provided me with all of the information I need as a consumer put a risk assessment on BFL.  I'm not willing to speculate about supposed conspiracies.

P.S. Despite the fact that we disagree on some things, I do respect your opinion and can understand your perspective as well.

As long as you cling to the idea that BFL has unlimited money, you will never see them at risk of imploding.
Clearly you believe they have segregated all of their customer orders in an escrow account and spawned by magic the operating funds for a 20 person company (plus consultants) over the last 11 months.
Here is Inaba/Josh saying back in July 27, 2012 that the BFL singles were being prepped to ship and mini-rigs were being assembled.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90333.msg994223#msg994223
Clearly, their business plans at that time did not include an additional 10 months of operating costs. Where did that money come from?
No venture capital group or private equity group has claimed to have invested in BFL. No angels have claimed them either.

I don't believe any of that, that was another poor inference on your part.

As for the post that long ago, it's a fascinating look at history, and also makes it apparent why some people have the gripes that they do.  I am not in that group of people.  I came on board well after that, and could look back at the relevant parts of BFL's history to make an assessment of what kind of risk I was willing to take, and what the portions of a portfolio would be.

I am not alone in this group of consumers, judging from anecdotal evidence.

You say that you are not their accountant and therefore you are unconcerned by any financial details of BFL. That my friend, is what is called willful ignorance.

No it's not.  Despite the fact that I don't immediately subscribe to everything you post, I've discussed multiple times the rationale behind my risk assessment.

If I haven't made it clear before, I'm well aware of what BFL threads degenerate to.  Without having possession of BFL proprietary info (which only they rightfully have) I'm not going to entertain any discussion about their financial details.  It's not worth the time, or wasted energy.

A neat way to dismiss the core of peoples worries about BFL. You don't have proof and you are unwilling to entertain circumstantial evidence. BFL said they have the money and that is good enough for you. BFL said they have the products and that is good enough for you.

There is already good competition in the ASIC community. More is on the way.
Bitcoin would have been better served if BFL had never existed, that money would have been spent on Avalon and ASICMiner (and perhaps other ventures). Of course, BFL was great for people who already had mining equipment (and did not order from BFL). BFL kept millions of dollars from being invested in actual hash rate and increasing the profit margin of every existing miner.

Perhaps being the key word.  It's very easy to see in hindsight all of the woulda/shoulda/couldas.  Opportunity cost has to be a constant consideration.

Those people with pre-orders can go get refunds right now if they want to put their money elsewhere.  They all have risks associated with them, that's just the nature of the marketplace right now.  This will all be different over the coming months.  As I've said countless times here, consumers will vote with their $/BTC.

For a lot of people, it was very easy to see in foresight. They brought up arguments like "not possible due to the laws of physics" and "people who make power and usage claims like that cannot possibly understand chip & PCB design". Those threads were not the ravings of trolls as the BFL folks claimed. They were simply people who knew that 5 watts would not heat a cup of coffee. They knew that getting 5GH/s out of 5 watts of power was so absurdly optimistic that no reasonable company would target it for a 65nm process. They knew that such a device could not be reliably powered by USB alone.

All these complaints rooted in elementary physics were dismissed as the ravings of haters and trolls by Inaba himself.

I am sure if BFL does crater, people will say "oh well, we couldn't have known" and that will be untrue.

[Inaba]

As long as you cling to the idea that BFL has unlimited money, you will never see them at risk of imploding.
Clearly you believe they have segregated all of their customer orders in an escrow account and spawned by magic the operating funds for a 20 person company (plus consultants) over the last 11 months.
Here is Inaba/Josh saying back in July 27, 2012 that the BFL singles were being prepped to ship and mini-rigs were being assembled.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90333.msg994223#msg994223
Clearly, their business plans at that time did not include an additional 10 months of operating costs. Where did that money come from?
No venture capital group or private equity group has claimed to have invested in BFL. No angels have claimed them either.

There's my little liar again, k9quaint.

What our dear friend k9 has neglected to mention in the above quote is that:

1) I was not working for BFL at the time.
2) I was referring to the FPGA equipment, which was in fact shipping.

But don't let context, facts and honesty deter your ranting K9.  Just keep piling up the BS.

[k9quaint]

As long as you cling to the idea that BFL has unlimited money, you will never see them at risk of imploding.
Clearly you believe they have segregated all of their customer orders in an escrow account and spawned by magic the operating funds for a 20 person company (plus consultants) over the last 11 months.
Here is Inaba/Josh saying back in July 27, 2012 that the BFL singles were being prepped to ship and mini-rigs were being assembled.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90333.msg994223#msg994223
Clearly, their business plans at that time did not include an additional 10 months of operating costs. Where did that money come from?
No venture capital group or private equity group has claimed to have invested in BFL. No angels have claimed them either.

There's my little liar again, k9quaint.

What our dear friend k9 has neglected to mention in the above quote is that:

1) I was not working for BFL at the time.
2) I was referring to the FPGA equipment, which was in fact shipping.

But don't let context, facts and honesty deter your ranting K9.  Just keep piling up the BS.

Oh how cute. Josh says that their FPGA sales have been providing the last 10 months of operating costs. Well that explains it all then. BFL has been selling FPGA devices this whole time to fund the 11 months of ASIC development.

Should I bother digging up BFL's explanation of why they discontinued their FPGA line? Or should I leave that as an exercise to the reader.

/pats Josh on the head

[Xian01]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

(And I saw your edit before you back-pedaled on it - jabbing me for buying 20 Erupter USB's

[k9quaint]

We know there are people in the world who have more money than sense

Perfect concession, plenty sufficient to end that conversation on.  Way past the hypothetical now.

I was going to bring up that not a single group buy of BFL's chips succeeded. The only group buy that has not given up is one that is asking for 100% escrow via John K (meaning zero money given to BFL until the chips are shipped). Perhaps BFL will agree given they haven't had any successful buys. That is not a market clamoring for BFL product. That is a market that is very wary of BFL and unwilling to extend them any more benefit of the doubt.

Wow.  So now you're taking it to the chips sale category?  Whether BFL can successfully get into the chips market given the consumer base there is an entirely different subject.  Why even bring that up when all I need to do is take one minute to find and post this:

Same topic, but maybe I moved to fast for you. We were talking about the market's response to BFL's products and whether they thought that BFL could deliver. Their latest "product" offering fell flat on it's face. That is an actual market response. If what you were saying was true, there should have been enormous uptake in the BFL chip offering. Quite the opposite.

BlackLilac @20 - Canada
Chanberg @15 - UK
pvtbrutus @12 - Netherlands

3 current bids for 5 GH/s miners.  

People are voting with their wallets.  Over and over and over again.  You are offering more tangential evidence to support your theory but it ultimately fails every time it comes down to $ and BTC, and the law of supply and demand.

Jalapeno's are rare and existing ones command a good price. Nobody is arguing that. The entire reason they command a good price is people think BFL won't be able to deliver their orderbook in any reasonable time frame. If people believed that BFL could deliver a Jalapeno ordered today, they would simply order it from BFL and get it in a reasonable amount of time. They would not pay 20 BTC for the rarest of rare treasures, a BFL device in the wild.

Those auctions are very different than a pre-order for a  50GH/s device that does not yet exist that is slated for delivery 90 days from now from a company that has never once met a deadline. I have demonstrated that BFL's latest product offering fell flat on it's face. You are conflating sales of what exists with pre-orders of yet to be developed devices.

Maybe BFL will eventually get the singles and mini-rigs working and shipped. But I doubt they would survive a mass of refunds from those who ordered those devices. That is 93% of their order book according to the only data we have.

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer who apparently had enough funds to then purchase 20 USB miners @ 2BTC per unit?

They certainly have money in the bank. If they didn't, we would see notices of eviction actions and lawsuits to recover money owed by BFL filed in the courts. How much money is the question. If they spent half their pre-order cash funding 8 extra months of development, then they are vulnerable to a mass of refund requests.

[Bitcoinorama]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

Diminish legal responsibility, and continue the illusion they are competent...

(Note: only *if that's the case, hypothetically speaking)

For what it's worth I think BFL are doing the best they currently can. It's better they ship something than nothing.

What I don't get is the overtones of arrogance when they've demonstrated their ability to consistently miss deadlines and make mistakes, there should really be some evidence of humility on their part. Sme people never want to admit they were wrong, or apologise, but in the face of what's happened a humble response is warranted. The best idea is to bulk chip all and open source pcb design to the community, I actually suggested this in the week before they made that announcemt, but the bridges appear to have already been burnt, when the could have swallowed pride and opened up to some talented community members ready and willing to help!

[wrenchmonkey]

As long as you cling to the idea that BFL has unlimited money, you will never see them at risk of imploding.
Clearly you believe they have segregated all of their customer orders in an escrow account and spawned by magic the operating funds for a 20 person company (plus consultants) over the last 11 months.
Here is Inaba/Josh saying back in July 27, 2012 that the BFL singles were being prepped to ship and mini-rigs were being assembled.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90333.msg994223#msg994223
Clearly, their business plans at that time did not include an additional 10 months of operating costs. Where did that money come from?
No venture capital group or private equity group has claimed to have invested in BFL. No angels have claimed them either.

There's my little liar again, k9quaint.

What our dear friend k9 has neglected to mention in the above quote is that:

1) I was not working for BFL at the time.
2) I was referring to the FPGA equipment, which was in fact shipping.

But don't let context, facts and honesty deter your ranting K9.  Just keep piling up the BS.

Oh how cute. Josh says that their FPGA sales have been providing the last 10 months of operating costs. Well that explains it all then. BFL has been selling FPGA devices this whole time to fund the 11 months of ASIC development.

Should I bother digging up BFL's explanation of why they discontinued their FPGA line? Or should I leave that as an exercise to the reader.

/pats Josh on the head

I hate to belabor this point and add further tangential fuel to the fire, but I have a very simple question:

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Edit: removed circumstantial evidence for consistency's sake.

Not only that, but it would seem that K9quaint is either completely incapable of reading comprehension, or he is ignoring everything meaningful in that post (because it demonstrates K9 to be a liar) and instead tries to twist the words of the post into something entirely unrelated.

Nowhere did Josh say anything about how BFL is paying its operating costs in that post. Only that K9 was lying and intentionally hiding context, in order to push his bullshit.

Now if there were only a button to ignore quoted posts. This one is his own special breed of retard...

[wrenchmonkey]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

Diminish legal responsibility, and continue the illusion they are competent...

(Note: only *if that's the case, hypothetically speaking)

His post said NOTHING positive or otherwise about BFL's competency. He merely pointed out the fallacy of assuming a company is out of money, when they're clearly continuing operations, and forcing refunds on whiny little cunt nuggets like Xian.

[k9quaint]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

More disinformation from ThatDGuy.
ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
 contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

11 months of product development and a full company with offices paid for with what money? They discontinued their FPGA sales and they were never that profitable so it can't be from that. Nobody has owned up to investing in BFL. BFL has never identified any investment made in them other than a cryptic message about support from a "private equity group" that has never been mentioned since (probably for legal reasons).

[k9quaint]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

Diminish legal responsibility, and continue the illusion they are competent...

(Note: only *if that's the case, hypothetically speaking)

His post said NOTHING positive or otherwise about BFL's competency. He merely pointed out the fallacy of assuming a company is out of money, when they're clearly continuing operations, and forcing refunds on whiny little cunt nuggets like Xian.

Thank you.  It's insane to me that I literally pre-empted what I said with this:

I hate to belabor this point and add further tangential fuel to the fire, but I have a very simple question:

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Edit: removed circumstantial evidence for consistency's sake.

...yet people still will remove context and put their own around it to dilute, muddle, and derail the conversation.

UGH, hate having to repeat myself, but if you want to rehash your debunked positions, so be it.

More disinformation from ThatDGuy.
ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
I contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

[k9quaint]

You're now asserting that BFL has the risk of imploding assuming a "mass of refund request" - i.e. Dogie's impossible idea.  i.e. the ludicrous hypothesis that I was pretty sure we stopped talking about 2 pages ago.

I was always saying it was not ludicrous, that it would not benefit BFL, and that your claims that a mass refund request would benefit BFL was what was absurd. I am still saying that. Your failure to examine the facts of the situation is why you are confused. Perhaps you should go back and read my posts again.

[wrenchmonkey]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

More disinformation from ThatDGuy.
ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
 contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

11 months of product development and a full company with offices paid for with what money? They discontinued their FPGA sales and they were never that profitable so it can't be from that. Nobody has owned up to investing in BFL. BFL has never identified any investment made in them other than a cryptic message about support from a "private equity group" that has never been mentioned since (probably for legal reasons).

What would be the benefit of a silent investor suddenly going for a public announcement? So you and all your fellow reddit kiddies could go after them as well? Yeah, fuck that. You are SOOOOO clueless, it's astounding.

If you and your fellow 'tards were somehow magically able to convince people with a vested financial interest in getting their hardware to suddenly jump ship after MONTHS--when you have people like Xian, who was as big a hater as anybody who fought and continues to fight TOOTH AND NAIL to get his order reinstated--Assuming you were able to pull off that impossible feat, believe me, there are thousands of people with cash in hand who would be LINED UP to place more orders.

If you find a way to clear the queue for us, PLEASE let me know, as I'll place roughly $18,000 of Jalapeno orders, IMMEDIATELY upon learning that there's no longer any backlog. I guarantee you that I am not the only one. I'd be willing to bet my house on it, right there along with others.

So please, do us that favor, and clear out the pre-order queue!

Ready? Go!

[k9quaint]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

Diminish legal responsibility, and continue the illusion they are competent...

(Note: only *if that's the case, hypothetically speaking)

His post said NOTHING positive or otherwise about BFL's competency. He merely pointed out the fallacy of assuming a company is out of money, when they're clearly continuing operations, and forcing refunds on whiny little cunt nuggets like Xian.

Thank you.  It's insane to me that I literally pre-empted what I said with this:

I hate to belabor this point and add further tangential fuel to the fire, but I have a very simple question:

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Edit: removed circumstantial evidence for consistency's sake.

...yet people still will remove context and put their own around it to dilute, muddle, and derail the conversation.

UGH, hate having to repeat myself, but if you want to rehash your debunked positions, so be it.

More disinformation from ThatDGuy.
ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
I contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

...still?

Let it go, man.  We were way past that like yesterday.

No, you changed the subject to "market forces". Just because you refuse to address the situation of BFL finances does not make it disappear.
You have consistently misrepresented my positions in a transparent attempt to put words in my mouth. I did not expect better from you, unfortunately. I have had too much experience on these forums.

Your position in this thread has always been absurd on the border of idiotic. I have been very patient with you up to this point. I have attempted to explain reputational risk to you. I have demonstrated how BFL has many past claims that turned out to be either incorrect or untrue. I have shown that there is a mystery about how they are funding their operations, they claim it is not from pre-orders but there is no other source of income or investment to account for their operational funding.

Your willful ignorance and misquoting is tiresome. Time has told that BFL was the worst of the ASIC options. Merely holding the BTC instead of buying BFL would have seen a 10 fold increase in value. Buying Avalon would have seen even higher returns. Buying ASICMiner shares would have been higher still.
Time will tell as to how many and how much BFL's investors get screwed for.

[k9quaint]

Hand waving and poo-flinging

Oh look, wrenchmonkey is back after the last time I schooled him on this subject.
The press release claimed a private equity group had backed BFL. No names. GROUP, not solo angel investor like you claim.
If you actually have evidence that it was a solo angel that backed BFL, please enlighten us.

Currently, the only evidence is BFL's one time claim that a nameless private equity group backed them.

FYI, billionaires who run private equity groups don't give a crap about random forum posts on the internet.

[k9quaint]

You're now asserting that BFL has the risk of imploding assuming a "mass of refund request" - i.e. Dogie's impossible idea.  i.e. the ludicrous hypothesis that I was pretty sure we stopped talking about 2 pages ago.

I was always saying it was not ludicrous, that it would not benefit BFL, and that your claims that a mass refund request would benefit BFL was what was absurd. I am still saying that. Your failure to examine the facts of the situation is why you are confused. Perhaps you should go back and read my posts again.

Not confused at all over here.  You're more than capable of going back through pages 1-2 of this thread to see plenty of people either commenting directly about how asinine the "plan" was or indirectly through their responses.  

When you, or anyone else, is ready to address this discrete question, I'm all ears:

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

I've asked a few times, and gotten emotional responses and added context to it instead of answers.  If there is no real answer to it, then it can be reasonably assumed that the company is doing fine.

You question was answered. You refuse to read it. However, I can paste it hundreds of times without too much effort. I will paste the response again until you either read it or have it read to you.

More disinformation from ThatDGuy.
ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
I contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

11 months of product development and a full company with offices paid for with what money? They discontinued their FPGA sales and they were never that profitable so it can't be from that. Nobody has owned up to investing in BFL. BFL has never identified any investment made in them other than a cryptic message about support from a "private equity group" that has never been mentioned since (probably for legal reasons).

[ThatDGuy]

...still?

Let it go, man.  We were way past that like yesterday.

No, you changed the subject to "market forces". Just because you refuse to address the situation of BFL finances does not make it disappear.
You have consistently misrepresented my positions in a transparent attempt to put words in my mouth. I did not expect better from you, unfortunately. I have had too much experience on these forums.

Your position in this thread has always been absurd on the border of idiotic. I have been very patient with you up to this point. I have attempted to explain reputational risk to you. I have demonstrated how BFL has many past claims that turned out to be either incorrect or untrue. I have shown that there is a mystery about how they are funding their operations, they claim it is not from pre-orders but there is no other source of income or investment to account for their operational funding.

Your willful ignorance and misquoting is tiresome. Time has told that BFL was the worst of the ASIC options. Merely holding the BTC instead of buying BFL would have seen a 10 fold increase in value. Buying Avalon would have seen even higher returns. Buying ASICMiner shares would have been higher still.
Time will tell as to how many and how much BFL's investors get screwed for.

It's like somewhere you missed the fact that this entire thread is idiotic.  The premise is absurd.

You've already attempted to fabricate parts of my post history for your own advantage once and I called you on it respectfully.  

Keep on talking in "would haves" and analyzing BFL's finances.  Time will continue to tell, and the present is speaking loud and clearly right now.  One of us is listening.

[ThatDGuy]

You're now asserting that BFL has the risk of imploding assuming a "mass of refund request" - i.e. Dogie's impossible idea.  i.e. the ludicrous hypothesis that I was pretty sure we stopped talking about 2 pages ago.

I was always saying it was not ludicrous, that it would not benefit BFL, and that your claims that a mass refund request would benefit BFL was what was absurd. I am still saying that. Your failure to examine the facts of the situation is why you are confused. Perhaps you should go back and read my posts again.

Not confused at all over here.  You're more than capable of going back through pages 1-2 of this thread to see plenty of people either commenting directly about how asinine the "plan" was or indirectly through their responses.  

When you, or anyone else, is ready to address this discrete question, I'm all ears:

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

I've asked a few times, and gotten emotional responses and added context to it instead of answers.  If there is no real answer to it, then it can be reasonably assumed that the company is doing fine.

You question was answered. You refuse to read it. However, I can paste it hundreds of times without too much effort. I will paste the response again until you either read it or have it read to you.

More disinformation from ThatDGuy.
ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
I contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

11 months of product development and a full company with offices paid for with what money? They discontinued their FPGA sales and they were never that profitable so it can't be from that. Nobody has owned up to investing in BFL. BFL has never identified any investment made in them other than a cryptic message about support from a "private equity group" that has never been mentioned since (probably for legal reasons).

This is just getting embarrassing for you, now. 

I don't know how to explain better the definition of the word discrete.

[k9quaint]

...still?

Let it go, man.  We were way past that like yesterday.

No, you changed the subject to "market forces". Just because you refuse to address the situation of BFL finances does not make it disappear.
You have consistently misrepresented my positions in a transparent attempt to put words in my mouth. I did not expect better from you, unfortunately. I have had too much experience on these forums.

Your position in this thread has always been absurd on the border of idiotic. I have been very patient with you up to this point. I have attempted to explain reputational risk to you. I have demonstrated how BFL has many past claims that turned out to be either incorrect or untrue. I have shown that there is a mystery about how they are funding their operations, they claim it is not from pre-orders but there is no other source of income or investment to account for their operational funding.

Your willful ignorance and misquoting is tiresome. Time has told that BFL was the worst of the ASIC options. Merely holding the BTC instead of buying BFL would have seen a 10 fold increase in value. Buying Avalon would have seen even higher returns. Buying ASICMiner shares would have been higher still.
Time will tell as to how many and how much BFL's investors get screwed for.

It's like somewhere you missed the fact that this entire thread is idiotic.  The premise is absurd.

You've already attempted to fabricate parts of my post history for your own advantage once and I called you on it respectfully.  

Keep on talking in "would haves" and analyzing BFL's finances.  Time will continue to tell, and the present is speaking loud and clearly right now.  One of us is listening.

One day you will read the following, then you won't have an excuse to call the notion of a wave of refunds absurd anymore.

ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
I contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

11 months of product development and a full company with offices paid for with what money? They discontinued their FPGA sales and they were never that profitable so it can't be from that. Nobody has owned up to investing in BFL. BFL has never identified any investment made in them other than a cryptic message about support from a "private equity group" that has never been mentioned since (probably for legal reasons).

[ThatDGuy]

...still?

Let it go, man.  We were way past that like yesterday.

No, you changed the subject to "market forces". Just because you refuse to address the situation of BFL finances does not make it disappear.
You have consistently misrepresented my positions in a transparent attempt to put words in my mouth. I did not expect better from you, unfortunately. I have had too much experience on these forums.

Your position in this thread has always been absurd on the border of idiotic. I have been very patient with you up to this point. I have attempted to explain reputational risk to you. I have demonstrated how BFL has many past claims that turned out to be either incorrect or untrue. I have shown that there is a mystery about how they are funding their operations, they claim it is not from pre-orders but there is no other source of income or investment to account for their operational funding.

Your willful ignorance and misquoting is tiresome. Time has told that BFL was the worst of the ASIC options. Merely holding the BTC instead of buying BFL would have seen a 10 fold increase in value. Buying Avalon would have seen even higher returns. Buying ASICMiner shares would have been higher still.
Time will tell as to how many and how much BFL's investors get screwed for.

It's like somewhere you missed the fact that this entire thread is idiotic.  The premise is absurd.

You've already attempted to fabricate parts of my post history for your own advantage once and I called you on it respectfully.  

Keep on talking in "would haves" and analyzing BFL's finances.  Time will continue to tell, and the present is speaking loud and clearly right now.  One of us is listening.

One day you will read the following, then you won't have an excuse to call the notion of a wave of refunds absurd anymore.

ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
I contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

11 months of product development and a full company with offices paid for with what money? They discontinued their FPGA sales and they were never that profitable so it can't be from that. Nobody has owned up to investing in BFL. BFL has never identified any investment made in them other than a cryptic message about support from a "private equity group" that has never been mentioned since (probably for legal reasons).

So now you're resorting to prophesying? I thought that was Puerto's gig?

Why are you still referencing posts from page 2, when it has nothing to do with the question posed?  Posed specifically to remove the ability for muddling, yet you are?

[k9quaint]

If you find a way to clear the queue for us, PLEASE let me know, as I'll place roughly $18,000 of Jalapeno orders, IMMEDIATELY upon learning that there's no longer any backlog. I guarantee you that I am not the only one. I'd be willing to bet my house on it, right there along with others.

So please, do us that favor, and clear out the pre-order queue!

This is what's known as magic as opposed to market forces here.  Beware using such logic.

Look at how desperate ThatDGuy is to demonstrate that a wave of refund requests would help BFL.
DESPERATE. Even the thought of such an action has him replying to every single post on the subject.
Derailing discussions. Refusal to consider BFL's history. Blind allegiance to BFL's own statements.

Hmm, it might be time to consider Cui Bono since ThatDGuy's posts are now entirely devoid of content.

[ThatDGuy]

If you find a way to clear the queue for us, PLEASE let me know, as I'll place roughly $18,000 of Jalapeno orders, IMMEDIATELY upon learning that there's no longer any backlog. I guarantee you that I am not the only one. I'd be willing to bet my house on it, right there along with others.

So please, do us that favor, and clear out the pre-order queue!

This is what's known as magic as opposed to market forces here.  Beware using such logic.

Look at how desperate ThatDGuy is to demonstrate that a wave of refund requests would help BFL.
DESPERATE. Even the thought of such an action has him replying to every single post on the subject.
Derailing discussions. Refusal to consider BFL's history. Blind allegiance to BFL's own statements.

Hmm, it might be time to consider Cui Bono since ThatDGuy's posts are now entirely devoid of content.

//Begin sarcasm
Super desperate here, you found me out.

On no, what will my ASICMINER dividends look like next week if my grand plan doesn't pan out.
//End sarcasm

I encourage anyone to look through my post history aside from two threads where I asked honest questions from an unbiased consumer's point of view, and presented my perspective based on the way the market is currently functioning.  I have literally nothing to hide and stand beside all of it when read in context.  I know context isn't your strong suit but am confident that the majority of reasonable readers understand how it works.

I thought it was worthwhile to make wrenchmonkey aware that he may well be considered a magician on this particular post.  That's pretty cool, for him.

[k9quaint]

If you find a way to clear the queue for us, PLEASE let me know, as I'll place roughly $18,000 of Jalapeno orders, IMMEDIATELY upon learning that there's no longer any backlog. I guarantee you that I am not the only one. I'd be willing to bet my house on it, right there along with others.

So please, do us that favor, and clear out the pre-order queue!

This is what's known as magic as opposed to market forces here.  Beware using such logic.

Look at how desperate ThatDGuy is to demonstrate that a wave of refund requests would help BFL.
DESPERATE. Even the thought of such an action has him replying to every single post on the subject.
Derailing discussions. Refusal to consider BFL's history. Blind allegiance to BFL's own statements.

Hmm, it might be time to consider Cui Bono since ThatDGuy's posts are now entirely devoid of content.

//Begin sarcasm
Super desperate here, you found me out.

On no, what will my ASICMINER dividends look like next week if my grand plan doesn't pan out.
//End sarcasm

I encourage anyone to look through my post history aside from two threads where I asked honest questions from an unbiased consumer's point of view, and presented my perspective based on the way the market is currently functioning.  I have literally nothing to hide and stand beside all of it when read in context.  I know context isn't your strong suit but am confident that the majority of reasonable readers understand how it works.

I thought it was worthwhile to make wrenchmonkey aware that he may well be considered a magician on this particular post.  That's pretty cool, for him.

You asked the questions and ignored or misrepresented the answers.

People have had legitimate questions about BFL's financial situation for the last 8 months.
IRRELEVANT you say, they have infinite money as far as you care.
Since they have infinite money, they can never go bankrupt and in this magical world of infinite money people canceling BFL orders would indeed benefit them.
Your premise is absurd and incompatible with reality. No wonder nobody can resolve things to your satisfaction. There must be a shortage of unicorns or something.

[PuertoLibre]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

[Speculation]

It would be Liability.

Keeping old orders on the books is a liability. Replacing old orders with new orders eliminates the long term liability. There is no incentive in such a scenario to treat people decently. The worse you treat them the better off you are.

It also allows you an opportunity to change your prices on old orders. Same hardware, new price.

---------------

Only if a person is simple minded enough would they not see that the chessboard can be reset if your are astute enough. And if you plug in the scenario I am depicting it makes perfect sense why various actors are taking the attitudes they are assuming. If you think in a simple manner, then a person wouldn't understand.

Keep in mind a money printing machine is being sold. The customer can be treated like walking shit and it won't matter. Tommorrow they will be right back at the order window.

---------------

The only scenario where such a strategy fails is when you:
A) Aren't able to deliver.
A1) Are able to deliver but not capable of doing it while the customer see's a profitable scenario.
A2) Are able to deliver but the date that you deliver is too late in the profitability curve and your customer never sees a satisfactory profit...thereby limiting future sales of your own product. (Your loss, IS my loss)

B) Are sued to such an extent by old customers that remain, that it starts a collapsing precedent.
B1) Cause a chain reaction of backlash by general customer dissatisfaction. (Customer comes back to the order window, but out of spite or irate sentiments, causes new problems which may eventually drown the company)

C) Another competitor delivers similar products with similar capabilities, making your own products less attractive.
C1) Another competitor saturates the market with their own products by being capable of meeting the demand for money printing machines.
C2) A competitor provides an upgrade path through their products. Leading the attractiveness of your own products to be marginalized.

D) <Etc>

[PuertoLibre]

Changes that have occurred since October 2012:

BFL has lost,

--They lost 1Gh/w (proposed) advantage.
--They lost their speedy delivery promise.
--They lost the respect of a portion of their product(s) user base.
--They have increased their prices while reducing the performance on their various product lines.
--They have lost their size advantage in an ever increasing manner across their product lines.
--They have reduced the frequency of communication with their customers and potential customers.

etc.

[dogie]

As long as you cling to the idea that BFL has unlimited money, you will never see them at risk of imploding.
Clearly you believe they have segregated all of their customer orders in an escrow account and spawned by magic the operating funds for a 20 person company (plus consultants) over the last 11 months.
Here is Inaba/Josh saying back in July 27, 2012 that the BFL singles were being prepped to ship and mini-rigs were being assembled.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90333.msg994223#msg994223
Clearly, their business plans at that time did not include an additional 10 months of operating costs. Where did that money come from?
No venture capital group or private equity group has claimed to have invested in BFL. No angels have claimed them either.

There's my little liar again, k9quaint.

What our dear friend k9 has neglected to mention in the above quote is that:

1) I was not working for BFL at the time.
2) I was referring to the FPGA equipment, which was in fact shipping.

But don't let context, facts and honesty deter your ranting K9.  Just keep piling up the BS.

You clearly don't give a shit about us peasants, the common people. But let me ask you this, how scared are you about the FCC? Should we find out? Yeah thats right, you better rush that paperwork through and have a good reason for not filing it.

[ThatDGuy]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

[Speculation]

It would be Liability.

Keeping old orders on the books is a liability. Replacing old orders with new orders eliminates the long term liability. There is no incentive in such a scenario to treat people decently. The worse you treat them the better off you are.

It also allows you an opportunity to change your prices on old orders. Same hardware, new price.

---------------

Only if a person is simple minded enough would they not see that the chessboard can be reset if your are astute enough. And if you plug in the scenario I am depicting it makes perfect sense why various actors are taking the attitudes they are assuming. If you think in a simple manner, then a person wouldn't understand.

Keep in mind a money printing machine is being sold. The customer can be treated like walking shit and it won't matter. Tommorrow they will be right back at the order window.

Thank you for an answer to the actual question.  So is BFL, by that explanation, treating people decently?

Keep in mind a money printing machine is being sold. The customer can be treated like walking shit and it won't matter. Tommorrow they will be right back at the order window.

Thanks also for writing this: a.k.a. summarizing the law of supply and demand and how you perceive it applying to BFL's situation currently.

The only scenario where such a strategy fails is when you:
A) Aren't able to deliver.

From my perspective, A) is already happening.  While I appreciate the detail you've laid out with the follow-up points, I don't think they'll play out in quite that trickle-down manner suggested given the aforementioned law of supply and demand.

History will ultimately tell one way or the other.  In the mean time, as always, I recommend everyone perform their due diligence and make educated decisions.

[k9quaint]

It's irrelevant to the market right now.  You choose different proof.

As I said, whenever you're ready to stop talking about the past, either in this thread or in the history of ASICs and start looking at what's going on right now, I'm ready to listen.  I'm sorry the present doesn't line up with how you wanted it to.

You're just babbling now.  I'm sorry you got so worked up and emotional about all of this.

It must be so nice for you to just dismiss all things inconvenient to your argument and then declare victory.

According to ThatDGuy:
Would a mass of refunds be harmful or beneficial to BFL? IGNORE BFL'S FINANCIAL SITUATION COMPLETELY!!!

Your position is absurd. It has only grown more so. You are approaching Wrenchmonkey status.
Keep derailing this thread and soon you will be eligible for BFL "charity donations". Cui bono indeed.

[chanson]

JUNE 15

R-DAY

Change to the 14th. You want to hit them on a Friday, = they know about the tsunami but can't do anything over the weekend to move funds. Gives time for it to build momentum.

Nah. It will take them two weeks to make it that far into their email box. In fact, if you request a refund now, they might just find out by early July.

[k9quaint]

JUNE 15

R-DAY

Change to the 14th. You want to hit them on a Friday, = they know about the tsunami but can't do anything over the weekend to move funds. Gives time for it to build momentum.

Nah. It will take them two weeks to make it that far into their email box. In fact, if you request a refund now, they might just find out by early July.

Yeah, there is literally no way you could get the refunds to hit all at once. BFL would drag their feet processing them and you couldn't reach enough of the pre-order investors to coordinate a single salvo of refunds. A thread full of people who have canceled their orders with BFL would be statistically interesting, but it would be impossible to know what percentage of orders that thread represents. There could still be 90 days of backlog even after a thread with 100 cancellations in it.

According to the data we have,  the lion's share of pre-orders (dollar value) is in mini-rigs. If that slice of the order book vanishes due to pre-orders (or never existed in the first place), that would put the screws to BFL. If KNCMiner delivers, expect every real mini-rig order to jump ship since KNCMiner is claiming twice the bang for the buck that BFL is claiming. BFL really needs to get their mini-rig operational and ship the first one.

The next month or so should be very interesting.

[ThatDGuy]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

Diminish legal responsibility, and continue the illusion they are competent...

(Note: only *if that's the case, hypothetically speaking)

For what it's worth I think BFL are doing the best they currently can. It's better they ship something than nothing.

What I don't get is the overtones of arrogance when they've demonstrated their ability to consistently miss deadlines and make mistakes, there should really be some evidence of humility on their part. Sme people never want to admit they were wrong, or apologise, but in the face of what's happened a humble response is warranted. The best idea is to bulk chip all and open source pcb design to the community, I actually suggested this in the week before they made that announcemt, but the bridges appear to have already been burnt, when the could have swallowed pride and opened up to some talented community members ready and willing to help!

When I originally posted in response, everything under the parenthetical section wasn't there yet, so I apologize for not being able to respond more fully.

I am in complete agreement with you on:

For what it's worth I think BFL are doing the best they currently can. It's better they ship something than nothing.

As for the other section, I have not personally been involved in said displays of arrogance.  Having read through some of the history it is apparent why people are very upset.  I do genuinely sympathize with those in that situation.

That said, I have seen the reactions of those people first-hand in just two of these threads and reading countless others.  It becomes quickly apparent that emotions are intrinsically tied with the responses of those who have had their bridges burned.  My milieu presents me with an opportunity to express what the 3-4 month miner and current consumer of ASICs perceives in the market.

Even in the process of presenting this view, I've been labelled as

• shill
• desperate
• believing magic is responsible for current market forces

So, while I am in no way acting as an apologist for anyone's behavior - I can absolutely see what kind of response can be expected from slighted ASIC customers of ~1 year+

[k9quaint]

As for the other section, I have not personally been involved in said displays of arrogance.  Having read through some of the history it is apparent why people are very upset.  I do genuinely sympathize with those in that situation.

That said, I have seen the reactions of those people first-hand in just two of these threads and reading countless others.  It becomes quickly apparent that emotions are intrinsically tied with the responses of those who have had their bridges burned.  My milieu presents me with an opportunity to express what the 3-4 month miner and current consumer of ASICs perceives in the market.

Even in the process of presenting this view, I've been labelled as

• shill
• desperate
• believing magic is responsible for current market forces

So, while I am in no way acting as an apologist for anyone's behavior - I can absolutely see what kind of response can be expected from slighted ASIC customers of ~1 year+

If only you had done actual research on BFL, people might have more patience with you. You say you are aware of the history and even read through some of it. Perhaps you should take a few days to actually educate yourself before you declare things to be "absurd" or "trolling". If the veterans of the forums are short with you it is because your type is a dime a dozen here. Your type shows up and wonders why regurgitation of the BFL party line is met with hostility. Dismissing all evidence that does not originate with BFL is certainly not going to endear you either.

[ThatDGuy]

It's irrelevant to the market right now.  You choose different proof.

As I said, whenever you're ready to stop talking about the past, either in this thread or in the history of ASICs and start looking at what's going on right now, I'm ready to listen.  I'm sorry the present doesn't line up with how you wanted it to.

You're just babbling now.  I'm sorry you got so worked up and emotional about all of this.

It must be so nice for you to just dismiss all things inconvenient to your argument and then declare victory.

According to ThatDGuy:
Would a mass of refunds be harmful or beneficial to BFL? IGNORE BFL'S FINANCIAL SITUATION COMPLETELY!!!

Your position is absurd. It has only grown more so. You are approaching Wrenchmonkey status.
Keep derailing this thread and soon you will be eligible for BFL "charity donations". Cui bono indeed.

So, you're still talking about this? AND adding more conspiratorial plans to try and tie everything together?

I hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but the discussion moved on without you.  When you're ready to talk at the big boys and girls table, please let us know.

Your other post here that is letting go of pages-old tangents is a great step!

JUNE 15

R-DAY

Change to the 14th. You want to hit them on a Friday, = they know about the tsunami but can't do anything over the weekend to move funds. Gives time for it to build momentum.

Nah. It will take them two weeks to make it that far into their email box. In fact, if you request a refund now, they might just find out by early July.

Yeah, there is literally no way you could get the refunds to hit all at once. BFL would drag their feet processing them and you couldn't reach enough of the pre-order investors to coordinate a single salvo of refunds. A thread full of people who have canceled their orders with BFL would be statistically interesting, but it would be impossible to know what percentage of orders that thread represents. There could still be 90 days of backlog even after a thread with 100 cancellations in it.

According to the data we have,  the lion's share of pre-orders (dollar value) is in mini-rigs. If that slice of the order book vanishes due to pre-orders (or never existed in the first place), that would put the screws to BFL. If KNCMiner delivers, expect every real mini-rig order to jump ship since KNCMiner is claiming twice the bang for the buck that BFL is claiming. BFL really needs to get their mini-rig operational and ship the first one.

The next month or so should be very interesting.

[k9quaint]

As for the other section, I have not personally been involved in said displays of arrogance.  Having read through some of the history it is apparent why people are very upset.  I do genuinely sympathize with those in that situation.

That said, I have seen the reactions of those people first-hand in just two of these threads and reading countless others.  It becomes quickly apparent that emotions are intrinsically tied with the responses of those who have had their bridges burned.  My milieu presents me with an opportunity to express what the 3-4 month miner and current consumer of ASICs perceives in the market.

Even in the process of presenting this view, I've been labelled as

• shill
• desperate
• believing magic is responsible for current market forces

So, while I am in no way acting as an apologist for anyone's behavior - I can absolutely see what kind of response can be expected from slighted ASIC customers of ~1 year+

If only you had done actual research on BFL, people might have more patience with you. You say you are aware of the history and even read through some of it. Perhaps you should take a few days to actually educate yourself before you declare things to be "absurd" or "trolling". If the veterans of the forums are short with you it is because your type is a dime a dozen here. Your type shows up and wonders why regurgitation of the BFL party line is met with hostility. Dismissing all evidence that does not originate with BFL is certainly not going to endear you either.

I hate to burst your bubble, but I have little desire to be endeared to you.  Actually none, or negative desire if we really want to be specific.

OP's idea was, and is, absurd.  Zero "veterans" of the thread have been short with me aside from you, and "short" is hardly the word to describe what you've been typing.  Dribble, babble? I don't even know any more.

I'm not trolling any company line.  I'm not a type.  Continue to try and fabricate associations between me and a company all you want, but you're just flailing - and flailing poorly, at that.

Name:   ThatDGuy
Posts:   237
Position:   Full Member
Date Registered:   April 25, 2013, 04:01:07 PM
Last Active:   Today at 08:35:26 PM

Sorry, but you are a type. Uneducated, unaware, wide-eyed at bitcoin, and running wild with confirmation bias.
You got called out for not understanding what a hypothetical is after insulting someone for rightfully pointing out it's absurdity.
You didn't realize that BFL could not actually have 100s of TH/s of mining equipment.
You didn't realize the composition of BFL's order book.
You have little to no idea of the history of BFL, you only know that there is hostility surrounding them.
I have doubts the OP *could* organize a mass refund, but I have no doubt that one could appear and would be extremely harmful to BFL's business. KNCMiner's product has twice the bang for the buck and is looming on the horizon. If KNCMiner delivers, BFL's order book will vanish because people would rather get twice as much for their money.
You backpedal and derail discussions.
You willfully ignore key areas of the discussion because they are inconvenient to your argument.

Put a little more effort into your subject before you start spouting off on it. Don't cherry pick data that fits your argument and ignore data that does not.

Your original point that a mass refund would help BFL remains idiotic. Your defense of it is dogmatic. Saying that  you are after some charity money from BFL was sarcasm, you would not be worth it.

[k9quaint]

Look up hypothetical, and maybe take a nap to calm down? I don't know, running out of suggestions for you.

Let me link to you the message in this thread where you declare you don't care about the current state of BFL's finances while discussing the effects a mass of refunds would have on BFL's finances.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226608.msg2397664#msg2397664
I will also link the content of that post here, so you cannot misrepresent it.

Explain where their operating capital for the last 11 months and the next few weeks came from.

Don't care.  Not their accountant.

Talk about willful ignorance + confirmation bias. Classic case thereof.

I already linked the wikipedia page explaining hypothetical logic and the fallacy that you were engaged in.
I'll just add that to the list of things you didn't read or didn't understand.

[wrenchmonkey]

Apparently anybody who doesn't fabricate their own 'facts' is ignorant.

"If you don't know the answer, and there's no reliable way for you to determine a factual answer, just make up some wild speculation that has little-to-no-bearing on any of the facts you DO have. Be sure to base it all on your preexisting opinions of the company, and add as much bullshit as you can. Otherwise it would be confirmation bias, and willful ignorance, and stuff."  

[PuertoLibre]

Your original point that a mass refund would help BFL remains idiotic. Your defense of it is dogmatic. Saying that  you are after some charity money from BFL was sarcasm, you would not be worth it.

A controlled refund process would help BFL.

An uncontrolled refund process would be detrimental to BFL.

I am going to wear my SUPER Troll costume. Beware, I rarely put it on.

---------------------------

Think about it for a bit, if you are BFL what are your weakest links in a controlled refund process?

Think.

Well, if you are them, they rely on:

--A functional bank account or two.
--A functional PayPal Payment Processor.
--A functional Website.
--A pragmatic presence with (very) visible but (very) low interaction.

------------------

They are (I am pretty sure) already in violation of Paypal's policy.

Point 1: A controlled refund process requires that a company controls its outflow of money. You always should retain control of this process. If the process become an uncontrolled outflow, the company may collapse.

If as company, some customers were to raise the alarm that there are non-standard practices at play which would counter PayPal merchant policies or Term and Conditions, then the company may lose access to the PayPal network. Perhaps even lose access to the MasterCard and Visa network if they got blacklisted.

Point 2: The uncontrolled conditions. In early May, there was an incident where this occurred. Someone let Paypal know that BFL had not shipped a massive quantity of orders. Begrudgingly (it seems) BFL was forced to respond to the complaints and address the issue with their customers.

Suddenly, there was an outflow of orders. Strangely, it was mentioned By BFL that they were required to show proof (to Paypal) that they were shipping out units to customers.

Problem: Most of the people who recieved units were not customers, nor were they even paid orders.

Conundrum Question: How was the issue resolved if Paypal did not receive a valid notice of shipments?

[PuertoLibre]

--A functional PayPal Payment Processor.

Problem: Most of the people who received units were not customers, nor were they even paid orders.

Conundrum Question: How was the issue resolved if Paypal did not receive a valid notice of shipments?

The process of disputing with Paypal then turned into an incident where all customers were asked, point blank, if they still wanted their devices or if they were requesting a refund. (As well as accepting some changes to their purchased hardware.)

Josh from BFL stated that if the process of confirming the order wasn't completed in a reasonable time frame, then they would automatically refunds customers.

Problem: This does not appear to be the case. It appears that customers who did not answer the question were not refund automatically as stated by the rep. This is evident if you look through the BFL forums and recent blog posts.

Statements from BFL seem to indicate that those who did not answer the confirmation request resulted in:

A) Your order was not shipped even if you were next.
B) You did not receive an automatic refund as previously stated by BFL Reps.

----------------------

Question, what does BFL then do with that information?

It appears there was a purpose to the confirmation. This specific process seemed to "mysteriously resolve" the Paypal issue. Yet there are customers who did not answer.

The refunds requested by email are processed at a very lengthy period of time, at times. varying anywhere from 1 day to 1 month.

A large majority of those refunds are processed as "payments" (as opposed to straight forward "refunds") to customers via PayPal.

------------------------------

What happens if BFL then loses the only Payment Processor they have at this time? (BitPay not included as they are virtual currency.)

Can BFL (affordably) refund people using Bank Wires and BitCoin payments?

Would losing Paypal cause immeasurable issues? Would it result in big time issues when issuing refunds? I think so.

[k9quaint]

You were asking me to speculate on a company's operating capital with nothing but bits and pieces of information and conspiracy theories.  I'm all good on that garbage.

Why are you still talking about pages and pages ago? It was a hypothetical, and a ludicrous one admittedly, and you're just on and on about it when I've literally been done with it since well before this point:

You change the subject and I address your latest posts. You led this discussion, if you don't like where it goes, try staying on the subject you want to talk about.

You admitted you would not speculate or entertain anyone's speculation on the state of BFL's finances.
You admitted it was a ludicrous hyptothetical from BFL Josh.
Now here is a hyptothetical for you:
If BFL had burned through a large chunk of their pre-order money by financing development and operations over the last 11 months, a mass of refunds could bankrupt them.

One ASIC company has already fallen prey to this. The market did not save them, it turned on them. Your speculation that the market would rally to save a company facing bankruptcy is poignant but not realistic. As soon as word got out that BFL could not pay the refund requests, nobody would think they could afford to finance the purchase of parts to construct their units.

Sure, Josh claims that they have hundreds of TH/s of parts to build product from, But since they do not yet have a mini-rig or single design that works, which parts exactly will they construct these devices from? Did they buy everything before they knew what they needed to make the devices work (this has already happened once by BFL's own admission)? That is hardly reassuring.

If you (by your own admission) cannot know the state of BFL's finances, how can you be so adamant that a wave of refunds would not bankrupt them?
Without knowledge of BFL's financial state, you cannot know how badly a wave of refunds would affect them.

You will not deviate from the idea that BFL can only benefit from a mass of refund requests. So either you have knowledge of BFL's financial state, or you have speculated on BFL's financial state, or you are simply unwilling to contemplate a scenario where BFL fails.
Which ever one it is, your position is internally inconsistent.

Outside spectators are able to see it plainly, both the current situation as well as how terribly your position is holding up here.  I am not fond of the fact that you're forcing me to rub it in your face but how else are you supposed to give up and move on?

I'm really pulling for you, here.  Come back to the light of reality.  The trend is your friend.

You fail to address your own inconsistencies and wrap yourself in the adulation of the incompetent. The light of reality has never shown on you.
After you have been exposed to BFL for more than a couple of "Two more weeks (TM)", you will understand. Some people cannot learn from others mistakes, they must be burned themselves before they can internalize the lesson. It is obvious that you are such a person and therefore we must wait until you are burned by BFL.
Tick tock.

[Xian01]

You fail to address your own inconsistencies and wrap yourself in the adulation of the incompetent.

 ... which is why I had to finally add him to my ignore list

[wrenchmonkey]

You were asking me to speculate on a company's operating capital with nothing but bits and pieces of information and conspiracy theories.  I'm all good on that garbage.

Why are you still talking about pages and pages ago? It was a hypothetical, and a ludicrous one admittedly, and you're just on and on about it when I've literally been done with it since well before this point:

You change the subject and I address your latest posts. You led this discussion, if you don't like where it goes, try staying on the subject you want to talk about.

You admitted you would not speculate or entertain anyone's speculation on the state of BFL's finances.

Speculation based on nothing is not the same as speculation based on available facts. You have ZERO founded reason to assume that BFL has in fact touched the pre-order money, when the public information available states that this isn't the case. The only reason you have chosen to assume that the pre-order money is gone, is your own personal bias and hatred for BFL. You have no evidence that it isn't there. Zero, zilch, zip, nada.

Further silly hypotheticals based on asinine speculation and zero fact

Not worth addressing.

As soon as word got out that BFL could not pay the refund requests, nobody would think they could afford to finance the purchase of parts to construct their units.

They've clearly got SOME level of parts stock on hand, as they're currently assembling and shipping Jalapenos. Furhtermore, I can think of about 18,000 reasons why I would think they could afford to purchase parts for my units. See below:

If you find a way to clear the queue for us, PLEASE let me know, as I'll place roughly $18,000 of Jalapeno orders, IMMEDIATELY upon learning that there's no longer any backlog. I guarantee you that I am not the only one. I'd be willing to bet my house on it, right there along with others.

So please, do us that favor, and clear out the pre-order queue!

Ready? Go!

I am EXTREMELY confident that I would not be the only one who would be jumping on board to get at the front of the line for currently-shipping Jalpenos. A couple dozen medium-sized buyers, and it doesn't matter if they are 'financially insolvent' the day all the refund requests go in. The very instant that queue goes to zero (hypothetically, of course, since we know that's not gonna happen), their bank account will fill right back up

Sure, Josh claims that they have hundreds of TH/s of parts to build product from, But since they do not yet have a mini-rig or single design that works, which parts exactly will they construct these devices from? Did they buy everything before they knew what they needed to make the devices work (this has already happened once by BFL's own admission)? That is hardly reassuring.

Once again, are you assuming that they are lying, or do you have evidence that they don't actually have the parts? You just said that you think that they've spent up enough money that they could be facing bankruptcy. OK... On what, praytell, did they spend all that money? A year's salary for a small staff? Okay, pretty sure they've already shipped enough Jalpenos to pay for that. Where did all the rest of this allegedly 'all spent up money' go? Come on, guy, which is it? Did they spend the money, or didn't they?

If you (by your own admission) cannot know the state of BFL's finances, how can you be so adamant that a wave of refunds would not bankrupt them?

Without knowledge of BFL's financial state, you cannot know how badly a wave of refunds would affect them.

You will not deviate from the idea that BFL can only benefit from a mass of refund requests. So either you have knowledge of BFL's financial state, or you have speculated on BFL's financial state, or you are simply unwilling to contemplate a scenario where BFL fails.
Which ever one it is, your position is internally inconsistent.

A unified organized wave of refunds alone, aside from taking place only in your your wildest fantasies, would not be enough. It would require a wave of refunds, as well as a somewhat sustained lack of any replacement orders coming into the queue, and that's unlikely.

There are plenty of scenarios where BFL could fail, but the more likely scenario is that another 1-2 big players jumps in at competitive pricing, and has goods IN STOCK (Say, for example, KNC Miner, and Bitfury). If those guys come online overnight, get proven leigit, and have several TH of mining equipment available for immediate shipment, for a price that's competitive with BFL, well, in that case, the outlook for BFL would not be very good for BFL at that point. That's because MARKET FORCES and rational self-interest would be driving things, not because of some wannabe community organizer with zero skin of his own in the game who reckons he can convince people to abandon their own self-interest, in the interest of making a point.

Once again, you twist the discussion and move the goal post. The argument was never that BFL is too big to fail, or whatever. The argument was that you're not gonna take down BFL by standing on a soap box trying to convince the local farmers to go raze the town grain silos to the ground.

[k9quaint]

You were asking me to speculate on a company's operating capital with nothing but bits and pieces of information and conspiracy theories.  I'm all good on that garbage.

Why are you still talking about pages and pages ago? It was a hypothetical, and a ludicrous one admittedly, and you're just on and on about it when I've literally been done with it since well before this point:

You change the subject and I address your latest posts. You led this discussion, if you don't like where it goes, try staying on the subject you want to talk about.

False.  Your perception is pretty poor.  I stopped discussing it with you because you are apparently incapable of staying focused. 

Try to notice that the discussion has moved on without you.

Wrenchmonkey summed up quite clearly why that happened, I'm sorry if/that you can't comprehend it.

Once again you fail to address your logic gaps. I spelled them out in great detail.
You change the subject. You completely dodge my comments.

I know I am winning because you refuse to discuss it. That is the hallmark of willful ignorance.

[k9quaint]

You were asking me to speculate on a company's operating capital with nothing but bits and pieces of information and conspiracy theories.  I'm all good on that garbage.

Why are you still talking about pages and pages ago? It was a hypothetical, and a ludicrous one admittedly, and you're just on and on about it when I've literally been done with it since well before this point:

You change the subject and I address your latest posts. You led this discussion, if you don't like where it goes, try staying on the subject you want to talk about.

You admitted you would not speculate or entertain anyone's speculation on the state of BFL's finances.

Speculation based on nothing is not the same as speculation based on available facts. You have ZERO founded reason to assume that BFL has in fact touched the pre-order money, when the public information available states that this isn't the case. The only reason you have chosen to assume that the pre-order money is gone, is your own personal bias and hatred for BFL. You have no evidence that it isn't there. Zero, zilch, zip, nada.

We have months of statements by BFL proven incorrect. I suppose you will argue that. You argue everything else trying to deflect from BFL's failures.
BFL run by a person convicted of fraud and still on probation. I suppose you will resurrect your "IRS witchhunt" theory and I will have to post Sonny's plea bargain agreement again where testified against his co-conspirators in exchange for a light sentence.
BFL refusing to identify their source of funding and it's size (GIANT red flag in the start up community). I suppose you will say that mentioning once in a PR statement that a secret and nameless "private equity group" has backed them is "proof". We can have that discussion again, I would enjoy humiliated you over it again.
11 months of operations, photos, claims of improvements made to their "factory", employees hired. I have plenty of evidence of them spending money.
I don't need to prove it is there, they do. All you have is a statement by Josh (who's track record speaks for itself) that they still have all the pre-order money.

Hardly "speculation based on nothing". Quite the opposite.

[k9quaint]

As soon as word got out that BFL could not pay the refund requests, nobody would think they could afford to finance the purchase of parts to construct their units.

They've clearly got SOME level of parts stock on hand, as they're currently assembling and shipping Jalapenos. Furhtermore, I can think of about 18,000 reasons why I would think they could afford to purchase parts for my units. See below:

I am EXTREMELY confident that I would not be the only one who would be jumping on board to get at the front of the line for currently-shipping Jalpenos. A couple dozen medium-sized buyers, and it doesn't matter if they are 'financially insolvent' the day all the refund requests go in. The very instant that queue goes to zero (hypothetically, of course, since we know that's not gonna happen), their bank account will fill right back up

The customers of bASIC will be overjoyed to hear that they did not in fact lose their refunds and that the market will be surging to their rescue. And who says anyone with a Jalapeno order would cancel? You could put a $5 million dollar hit on BFL's books just by canceling the mini-rigs. If KNCMiner ships a Saturn, which has better price-performance than a mini-rig, who would buy from BFL instead? Wouldn't the market vote with it's wallet? Would you add your order to BFL's 90day Jalapeno queue knowing that they just got hit with the same style of refund wave which bankrupted bASIC and cost a lot of their customers their investment?

[k9quaint]

You were asking me to speculate on a company's operating capital with nothing but bits and pieces of information and conspiracy theories.  I'm all good on that garbage.

Why are you still talking about pages and pages ago? It was a hypothetical, and a ludicrous one admittedly, and you're just on and on about it when I've literally been done with it since well before this point:

You change the subject and I address your latest posts. You led this discussion, if you don't like where it goes, try staying on the subject you want to talk about.

False.  Your perception is pretty poor.  I stopped discussing it with you because you are apparently incapable of staying focused. 

Try to notice that the discussion has moved on without you.

Wrenchmonkey summed up quite clearly why that happened, I'm sorry if/that you can't comprehend it.

Once again you fail to address your logic gaps. I spelled them out in great detail.
You change the subject. You completely dodge my comments.

I know I am winning because you refuse to discuss it. That is the hallmark of willful ignorance.

Winning what? An internet argument? Congrats, man!

I also choose not to discuss (or, in your case, end discussions) with small children about finances when they don't understand how market forces operate.  It's not worth my time.

Another change of subject and more backpedaling. Run along. /pats ThatDGuy on the head.
Perhaps you can read about a real life example of what I am contending that occurred a few weeks before you joined us on these boards:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152980.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=143496.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137876.0

Who am I kidding, you won't click on a single one of those links about a bitcoin ASIC mining company that got capsized by a refund wave.

[MooC Tals]

What the fuck is qq

I am 12
what is this?

lol could not help it.



No need they're doing it to them selves. GO TEAM BFL







and die lol

[wrenchmonkey]

We have months of statements by BFL proven incorrect. I suppose you will argue that.

What you have is months of missed targets, over-promising, and under-delivering. There's a big difference between missing a target, and deceit. I've said time and time again that I agree that BFL is overly optimistic.

However, being wrong about when they could deliver something does not equate to a false statement of fact. If BFL says "2 weeks" I think there's good reason to discount it, as they're just waaaaaaay too optimistic about this stuff.

If they say "We have not touched any pre-order money" there's no good reason not to believe it, other than personal bias, and your overpowering personal need to think of BFL as criminals and scammers.

Something, something, blathering horse shit about how much I hate Josh and BFL.

Once again, not bothering with it...

[k9quaint]

Sure, Josh claims that they have hundreds of TH/s of parts to build product from, But since they do not yet have a mini-rig or single design that works, which parts exactly will they construct these devices from? Did they buy everything before they knew what they needed to make the devices work (this has already happened once by BFL's own admission)? That is hardly reassuring.

Once again, are you assuming that they are lying, or do you have evidence that they don't actually have the parts? You just said that you think that they've spent up enough money that they could be facing bankruptcy. OK... On what, praytell, did they spend all that money? A year's salary for a small staff? Okay, pretty sure they've already shipped enough Jalpenos to pay for that. Where did all the rest of this allegedly 'all spent up money' go? Come on, guy, which is it? Did they spend the money, or didn't they?

20 people was the last headcount BFL gave us. That is easily a million alone in salary over the course of a year. They outsourced the design of a 100% hand routed ASIC @ 65nm with a 7.5 mm2 die size. You can fit 800,000 gates per square millimeter on 65nm, so their die could hold several million. That sort of chip complexity will cost you easily $500K in NRE. They had to redo the design (and have admitted to it) so even more money spent. Don't even get me started on all the taxes they face on the money they have collected for pre-orders.

Which parts do they have exactly? They have not yet successfully made the chips run at a density that would make a mini-rig or full size single viable. How could they have power supplies, or PCBS, or case mountings, or components for the PCBs picked out yet? Why do their chip pre-orders (limited to 100,000) face 100 days till delivery? I thought they had hundreds of TH/s of chips lying around.

How could they have stockpiled parts for a product that does not yet exist? If they stockpiled parts and they can't make the design work from their stockpiles, wouldn't that be worse? I am giving BFL the benefit of the doubt by saying they don't have a warehouse full of parts that they cannot build a product from.

[k9quaint]

We have months of statements by BFL proven incorrect. I suppose you will argue that.

What you have is months of missed targets, over-promising, and under-delivering. There's a big difference between missing a target, and deceit. I've said time and time again that I agree that BFL is overly optimistic.

I don't care whether they are "mistaken" or deceiving. People "mistakenly" spend all their company's cash all the time. Usually they are "mistaken" in front of a bankruptcy judge.

However, being wrong about when they could deliver something does not equate to a false statement of fact. If BFL says "2 weeks" I think there's good reason to discount it, as they're just waaaaaaay too optimistic about this stuff.

There are plenty of statements by Josh (like the power measurements that they took on the chips they didn't have that said they met their projections that they have since admitted they did not meet) that were clearly lies (some would call it marketing) to put pressure on their competitors and reassure their pre-order base (which they had to keep on the hook for another 6 months).

If they say "We have not touched any pre-order money" there's no good reason not to believe it, other than personal bias, and your overpowering personal need to think of BFL as criminals and scammers.

You are blinded by your undying love for BFL. You have never admitted they have ever done anything shady or wrong. I don't ever expect you to.

Something, something, blathering horse shit about how much I hate Josh and BFL.

Once again, not bothering with it...

Good idea, I already crushed you on those arguments and simply would have linked to the threads where you left with your tail between your legs.  

[wrenchmonkey]

Something, something, mental gymnastics to make my own position seem justified

 

There are plenty of statements by Josh (like the power measurements that they took on the chips they didn't have that said they met their projections that they have since admitted they did not meet) that were clearly lies (some would call it marketing) to put pressure on their competitors and reassure their pre-order base (which they had to keep on the hook for another 6 months).

Can't speak to that, as you provide no quotes or sources, and I can't trust your quotes/sources anyway, as you've clearly demonstrated your MO of distortion and deceit by altering or removing context.

More nonsense and appeal to motive fallacy

*yawn*

Declaration of victory in dead-horse-beating contest

Yes, congratulations, you've convinced me to give up on rehashing your sexual-fetish-level obsession with BFL and Josh.  

[k9quaint]

What change of subject? I've been trying every possible way to express to you that I'm no longer discussing the days-old topic with you because you proved yourself incapable of remaining in the hypothetical bounds of the discussion put there specifically to stay in rational terms.

The bASIC drama sounded like it was pretty bad.  How many bASIC units were ever sent out to actual customers?

You you keep changing the subject and declaring that you refuse to discuss the previous subject further because...
No reason yet supplied other than some vague complaint about "remaining within hypotheical bounds to stay in rational terms." Sounds like code for capitulation.

You may refuse to discuss the topic of the thread all you like. My purpose here is not to convince you or wrenchmonkey or any of the other BFL fanbois to change your stripes. That cannot be done. My purpose here is to provide a counterpoint to your reckless optimism and willful ignorance.

[Unacceptable]

I have a dog in this & would LOVE to express my feelings/presumptions/speculations....................but I'm not losing my day 1 preorder over it 

Just deliver my 30GH unit BFL.................for the love of god 

[wrenchmonkey]

My purpose here is not to convince you or wrenchmonkey or any of the other BFL fanbois to change your stripes. That cannot be done. My purpose here is to provide a counterpoint to your reckless optimism and willful ignorance.

That's funny, because your sexual-fetish-level fanaticism was here on the forum WELL before either of us got here. So who's providing a 'counterpoint' to whom, exactly? Your type are a dime-a-dozen on this forum, guy. You're all predictable, all fanatics, and all using the same tired talking points.

I have a dog in this & would LOVE to express my feelings/presumptions/speculations....................but I'm not losing my day 1 preorder over it  

BAM! Market forces at work!  

[k9quaint]

Something, something, mental gymnastics to make my own position seem justified

 

You have given up again. I suppose BFL is paying you whether you get schooled here or not.

There are plenty of statements by Josh (like the power measurements that they took on the chips they didn't have that said they met their projections that they have since admitted they did not meet) that were clearly lies (some would call it marketing) to put pressure on their competitors and reassure their pre-order base (which they had to keep on the hook for another 6 months).

Can't speak to that, as you provide no quotes or sources, and I can't trust your quotes/sources anyway, as you've clearly demonstrated your MO of distortion and deceit by altering or removing context.

You wouldn't believe the documentation provided by a federal court. You still believe Sonny Vleisides is a saint. Nothing I can link to would change your mind in the slightest. My links are for the people reading your sad little diatribes.

More nonsense and appeal to motive fallacy

*yawn*

You have given up again. I suppose BFL is paying you whether you get schooled here or not.

Declaration of victory in dead-horse-beating contest

Yes, congratulations, you've convinced me to give up on rehashing your sexual-fetish-level obsession with BFL and Josh.  

You cannot be convinced, but every time you make an idiotic statement and I catch you in it with facts, other people might notice.
Since you are typing right now with Josh's nuts in your mouth, I wouldn't bring up fetish level obsessions if I were you. 
If BFL delivers their mini-rigs before KNCMiner delivers a Saturn, BFL might still avoid the fate of bASIC.
BFL still has a shot at being the DeLorean of bitcoin mining. 

[Unacceptable]

My purpose here is not to convince you or wrenchmonkey or any of the other BFL fanbois to change your stripes. That cannot be done. My purpose here is to provide a counterpoint to your reckless optimism and willful ignorance.

That's funny, because your sexual-fetish-level fanaticism was here on the forum WELL before either of us got here. So who's providing a 'counterpoint' to whom, exactly? Your type are a dime-a-dozen on this forum, guy. You're all predictable, all fanatics, and all using the same tired talking points.

I have a dog in this & would LOVE to express my feelings/presumptions/speculations....................but I'm not losing my day 1 preorder over it  

BAM! Market forces at work!  

Yeah,"market forces"................forces me to look elsewhere for my ASIC needs 

[k9quaint]

My purpose here is not to convince you or wrenchmonkey or any of the other BFL fanbois to change your stripes. That cannot be done. My purpose here is to provide a counterpoint to your reckless optimism and willful ignorance.

That's funny, because your sexual-fetish-level fanaticism was here on the forum WELL before either of us got here. So who's providing a 'counterpoint' to whom, exactly? Your type are a dime-a-dozen on this forum, guy. You're all predictable, all fanatics, and all using the same tired talking points.

There are certainly dozens of people who are very upset with BFL while their determined supporters can be counted on a single hand.
I just happen to have the patience to debunk your crap ad infinitum.

I have a dog in this & would LOVE to express my feelings/presumptions/speculations....................but I'm not losing my day 1 preorder over it  

BAM! Market forces at work!  

Wrenchmonkey reading comprehension at work again. That is Josh instilling the fear of BFL order cancellation in people. Unacceptable does not want to be punished like Xian was. He is rightfully afraid to speak to speak his mind for fear of BFL retaliating. Until Xian resolves the legal dispute, people with early orders are wise to keep silent, or at least complain via an alias.

[Unacceptable]

My purpose here is not to convince you or wrenchmonkey or any of the other BFL fanbois to change your stripes. That cannot be done. My purpose here is to provide a counterpoint to your reckless optimism and willful ignorance.

That's funny, because your sexual-fetish-level fanaticism was here on the forum WELL before either of us got here. So who's providing a 'counterpoint' to whom, exactly? Your type are a dime-a-dozen on this forum, guy. You're all predictable, all fanatics, and all using the same tired talking points.

There are certainly dozens of people who are very upset with BFL while their determined supporters can be counted on a single hand.
I just happen to have the patience to debunk your crap ad infinitum.

I have a dog in this & would LOVE to express my feelings/presumptions/speculations....................but I'm not losing my day 1 preorder over it  

BAM! Market forces at work!  

Wrenchmonkey reading comprehension at work again. That is Josh instilling the fear of BFL order cancellation in people. Unacceptable does not want to be punished like Xian was. He is rightfully afraid to speak to speak his mind for fear of BFL retaliating. Until Xian resolves the legal dispute, people with early orders are wise to keep silent, or at least complain via an alias.

Thank you K9  

Read my sig.............................................

[wrenchmonkey]

Yeah,"market forces"................forces me to look elsewhere for my ASIC needs 

Ahh yes, the bipolarism of the BFL customer scorned. All talk, no walk. If you've got 'elsewhere' to get your ASIC needs met, go for it. I call bullshit. Why would you be so hell-bent on keeping your BFL order if you had somebody else to meet your needs?

Unacceptable does not want to be punished like Xian was. He is rightfully afraid to speak to speak his mind for fear of BFL retaliating. Until Xian resolves the legal dispute, people with early orders are wise to keep silent, or at least complain via an alias.

"Retaliating"? Oh my! But HOW praytell? Are they gonna come beat him up? Nooooo. Are they gonna cut off the head of his prized horse and leave it in his bed? Noooo.

How are they gonna "retaliate"? Maybe, cancel an order that he and the rest of the market REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want? Bingo! If it were just a matter of them canceling an order, and him going someplace else, it wouldn't be much incentive to prevent him badmouthing a company. So CLEARLY the market really fucking wants these things, right? Right.

Market forces at work. Further demonstrating that you're not going to convince people to demand refunds en masse. Nor will those people demanding refunds have any meaningful bearing on BFL's order queue. Because for every potential day 1 order spot that gets opened up, there are 10 people ready and willing to jump on it. If another company comes along with ability to deliver faster, at a competitive price, people will no longer cling to their pre-orders, and will go elsewhere.

Market forces, son, market forces. Not rocket science.

And with that, I do believe this ass belongs to you. Let me just hand that back to ya.

[Unacceptable]

Yeah,"market forces"................forces me to look elsewhere for my ASIC needs  

Ahh yes, the bipolarism of the BFL customer scorned. All talk, no walk. If you've got 'elsewhere' to get your ASIC needs met, go for it. I call bullshit. Why would you be so hell-bent on keeping your BFL order if you had somebody else to meet your needs?

Unacceptable does not want to be punished like Xian was. He is rightfully afraid to speak to speak his mind for fear of BFL retaliating. Until Xian resolves the legal dispute, people with early orders are wise to keep silent, or at least complain via an alias.

"Retaliating"? Oh my! But HOW praytell? Are they gonna come beat him up? Nooooo. Are they gonna cut off the head of his prized horse and leave it in his bed? Noooo.

How are they gonna "retaliate"? Maybe, cancel an order that he and the rest of the market REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want? Bingo! If it were just a matter of them canceling an order, and him going someplace else, it wouldn't be much incentive to prevent him badmouthing a company. So CLEARLY the market really fucking wants these things, right? Right.

Market forces at work. Further demonstrating that you're not going to convince people to demand refunds en masse. Nor will those people demanding refunds have any meaningful bearing on BFL's order queue. Because for every potential day 1 order spot that gets opened up, there are 10 people ready and willing to jump on it. If another company comes along with ability to deliver faster, at a competitive price, people will no longer cling to their pre-orders, and will go elsewhere.

Market forces, son, market forces. Not rocket science.

And with that, I do believe this ass belongs to you. Let me just hand that back to ya.

I'm not going get 30GH for $650 anywhere else,for a long time yet anyhow...................I've waited this long,another few weeks or a month ain't much,at least as far the updates are saying  

No one,no one has anything ready now,that is within my pricerange at least,so I'll just keep quiet & wait  

Trust me,if I had ordered as late as october,I would have asked for a refund already  

I have gone "elsewhere"  

The floor is yours 

[wrenchmonkey]

Yeah,"market forces"................forces me to look elsewhere for my ASIC needs  

Ahh yes, the bipolarism of the BFL customer scorned. All talk, no walk. If you've got 'elsewhere' to get your ASIC needs met, go for it. I call bullshit. Why would you be so hell-bent on keeping your BFL order if you had somebody else to meet your needs?

Unacceptable does not want to be punished like Xian was. He is rightfully afraid to speak to speak his mind for fear of BFL retaliating. Until Xian resolves the legal dispute, people with early orders are wise to keep silent, or at least complain via an alias.

"Retaliating"? Oh my! But HOW praytell? Are they gonna come beat him up? Nooooo. Are they gonna cut off the head of his prized horse and leave it in his bed? Noooo.

How are they gonna "retaliate"? Maybe, cancel an order that he and the rest of the market REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want? Bingo! If it were just a matter of them canceling an order, and him going someplace else, it wouldn't be much incentive to prevent him badmouthing a company. So CLEARLY the market really fucking wants these things, right? Right.

Market forces at work. Further demonstrating that you're not going to convince people to demand refunds en masse. Nor will those people demanding refunds have any meaningful bearing on BFL's order queue. Because for every potential day 1 order spot that gets opened up, there are 10 people ready and willing to jump on it. If another company comes along with ability to deliver faster, at a competitive price, people will no longer cling to their pre-orders, and will go elsewhere.

Market forces, son, market forces. Not rocket science.

And with that, I do believe this ass belongs to you. Let me just hand that back to ya.

I'm not going get 30GH for $650 anywhere else,for a long time yet anyhow...................I've waited this long,another few weeks or a month ain't much,at least as far the updates are saying  

No one,no one has anything ready now,that is within my pricerange at least,so I'll just keep quiet & wait  

Trust me,if I had ordered as late as october,I would have asked for a refund already  

I have gone "elsewhere"  

The floor is yours 

You just reiterated my entire point. The market demand and your own rational self-interest is what is driving your decisions. Not some asshat with zero vested interest, standing on a soap box.

I don't get how you get angry when I point this out, and then confirm that these are EXACTLY the reasons for your behavior. Nobody else is selling. BFL, for now, owns the market. That may change soon enough, but in the mean time, market forces are exactly what are driving your (and any other rational human being's) behavior. No reason to take offense to that.

[k9quaint]

Yeah,"market forces"................forces me to look elsewhere for my ASIC needs 

Ahh yes, the bipolarism of the BFL customer scorned. All talk, no walk. If you've got 'elsewhere' to get your ASIC needs met, go for it. I call bullshit. Why would you be so hell-bent on keeping your BFL order if you had somebody else to meet your needs?

Wrenchmonkey rage incoming. Wrecked by Unacceptable and wrenchmonkey turns on him like a rabid squirrel.

Unacceptable does not want to be punished like Xian was. He is rightfully afraid to speak to speak his mind for fear of BFL retaliating. Until Xian resolves the legal dispute, people with early orders are wise to keep silent, or at least complain via an alias.

"Retaliating"? Oh my! But HOW praytell? Are they gonna come beat him up? Nooooo. Are they gonna cut off the head of his prized horse and leave it in his bed? Noooo.

They would do to him what they did to Xian.

How are they gonna "retaliate"? Maybe, cancel an order that he and the rest of the market REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want? Bingo! If it were just a matter of them canceling an order, and him going someplace else, it wouldn't be much incentive to prevent him badmouthing a company. So CLEARLY the market really fucking wants these things, right? Right.

He has waited 11 months, he doesn't want all patience that to turn into an interest free loan to BFL.

Market forces at work. Further demonstrating that you're not going to convince people to demand refunds en masse. Nor will those people demanding refunds have any meaningful bearing on BFL's order queue. Because for every potential day 1 order spot that gets opened up, there are 10 people ready and willing to jump on it. If another company comes along with ability to deliver faster, at a competitive price, people will no longer cling to their pre-orders, and will go elsewhere.

Market forces, son, market forces. Not rocket science.

IMO, day 1 customers should sell to the greater fool if they can. Then re-invest in Avalon or KNCMiner. Who knows when the supply of fools will run out?
Bad news from BFL or good news from KNCMiner could flush that "market" down the toilet.
Day 1 orders of mini-rigs or singles should not complain lest BFL turn their patience into an interest free loan and a potential lawsuit against an empty shell of a company.

What about day 90 orders? or day 180 orders? or day 270 orders? What is the value of an BFL order from April on the open market? Probably zilch.

And with that, I do believe this ass belongs to you. Let me just hand that back to ya.

FYI, that isn't my ass you are trying to hand to me, it is the ass you have been talking out of since you arrived. I will be happy to dispose of it for you. However, Josh might miss it next time he wants to take a crap.

[Unacceptable]

Yeah,"market forces"................forces me to look elsewhere for my ASIC needs  

Ahh yes, the bipolarism of the BFL customer scorned. All talk, no walk. If you've got 'elsewhere' to get your ASIC needs met, go for it. I call bullshit. Why would you be so hell-bent on keeping your BFL order if you had somebody else to meet your needs?

Unacceptable does not want to be punished like Xian was. He is rightfully afraid to speak to speak his mind for fear of BFL retaliating. Until Xian resolves the legal dispute, people with early orders are wise to keep silent, or at least complain via an alias.

"Retaliating"? Oh my! But HOW praytell? Are they gonna come beat him up? Nooooo. Are they gonna cut off the head of his prized horse and leave it in his bed? Noooo.

How are they gonna "retaliate"? Maybe, cancel an order that he and the rest of the market REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want? Bingo! If it were just a matter of them canceling an order, and him going someplace else, it wouldn't be much incentive to prevent him badmouthing a company. So CLEARLY the market really fucking wants these things, right? Right.

Market forces at work. Further demonstrating that you're not going to convince people to demand refunds en masse. Nor will those people demanding refunds have any meaningful bearing on BFL's order queue. Because for every potential day 1 order spot that gets opened up, there are 10 people ready and willing to jump on it. If another company comes along with ability to deliver faster, at a competitive price, people will no longer cling to their pre-orders, and will go elsewhere.

Market forces, son, market forces. Not rocket science.

And with that, I do believe this ass belongs to you. Let me just hand that back to ya.

I'm not going get 30GH for $650 anywhere else,for a long time yet anyhow...................I've waited this long,another few weeks or a month ain't much,at least as far the updates are saying  

No one,no one has anything ready now,that is within my pricerange at least,so I'll just keep quiet & wait  

Trust me,if I had ordered as late as october,I would have asked for a refund already  

I have gone "elsewhere"  

The floor is yours 

You just reiterated my entire point. The market demand and your own rational self-interest is what is driving your decisions. Not some asshat with zero vested interest, standing on a soap box.

I don't get how you get angry when I point this out, and then confirm that these are EXACTLY the reasons for your behavior. Nobody else is selling. BFL, for now, owns the market. That may change soon enough, but in the mean time, market forces are exactly what are driving your (and any other rational human being's) behavior. No reason to take offense to that.

Who's angry    Just stating my current situation..................so you & others can see where I'm coming from.

[dropt]

You just reiterated my entire point. The market demand and your own rational self-interest is what is driving your decisions. Not some asshat with zero vested interest, standing on a soap box.

I don't get how you get angry when I point this out, and then confirm that these are EXACTLY the reasons for your behavior. Nobody else is selling. BFL, for now, owns the market. That may change soon enough, but in the mean time, market forces are exactly what are driving your (and any other rational human being's) behavior. No reason to take offense to that.

Every post you make further solidifies, in my mind, how much of an idiot you are.  The lesser part of me secretly hopes BFL fails and that you and a select few are the ones left holding the bag. However,  I'd be equally satisfied if you end up so embarrassed with yourself that you disappear and the rest of us are never tasked with reading your bullshit again.

I'm adding you to my ignore list, which should have been done long ago.

[wrenchmonkey]

They would do to him what they did to Xian.

Which was to refund his money AGAINST HIS WILL! Even a loudmouth complainer troll had to be dragged out kicking and screaming from his order! Get it?

He has waited 11 months, he doesn't want all patience that to turn into an interest free loan to BFL.

So it's all about spite now at this point, is it? He's no longer operating in his own self-interest, he just wants to stick it to BFL...?  

If that were really the case, he'd just sell his pre-order for 2-4 times what he paid for it, and be done with it. Why is it that your opinions rarely match up with reality?

IMO, day 1 customers should sell to the greater fool if they can. Then re-invest in Avalon or KNCMiner. Who knows when the supply of fools will run out?
Bad news from BFL or good news from KNCMiner could flush that "market" down the toilet.
Day 1 orders of mini-rigs or singles should not complain lest BFL turn their patience into an interest free loan and a potential lawsuit against an empty shell of a company.

And yet your opinion of what others should do doesn't appear to match up with the majority of customers who are making their OWN decisions as to their own self-interest. It's amazing how out of touch you can be. A select few people ARE selling their spots in line, and that's fine. They're making that decision, believing it's the best option for them at this point. But the fact that most people aren't selling (and the few that are, are commanding a handsome price) indicates a strong market confidence in BFL.

What about day 90 orders? or day 180 orders? or day 270 orders? What is the value of an BFL order from April on the open market? Probably zilch.

Who knows? The market can determine that. The right price is exactly what somebody out there is willing to pay. I have no idea what somebody's willing to pay.

I agree with you that anything since January is probably worth precious little over 'face value' on the open market at this point. But that remains totally irrelevant. Anybody who loses confidence can just as easily request a refund as sell an order at 'face value'. The current market value on those orders however pretty clearly remains higher than face value to its current owners. Otherwise they'd just get a refund.

nana nana boo boo, I know you are, but what am I?

Oooooh, what next? Are you gonna call me a doodie head?  

[wrenchmonkey]

You just reiterated my entire point. The market demand and your own rational self-interest is what is driving your decisions. Not some asshat with zero vested interest, standing on a soap box.

I don't get how you get angry when I point this out, and then confirm that these are EXACTLY the reasons for your behavior. Nobody else is selling. BFL, for now, owns the market. That may change soon enough, but in the mean time, market forces are exactly what are driving your (and any other rational human being's) behavior. No reason to take offense to that.

Every post you make further solidifies, in my mind, how much of an idiot you are.  The lesser part of me secretly hopes BFL fails and that you and a select few are the ones left holding the bag. However,  I'd be equally satisfied if you end up so embarrassed with yourself that you disappear and the rest of us are never tasked with reading your bullshit again.

I'm adding you to my ignore list, which should have been done long ago.

I liked how you just called names without ever debating any points of my argument. Well played sir. Run away and bury your head in the sand. Seems to be about what you're good for...

[k9quaint]

You just reiterated my entire point. The market demand and your own rational self-interest is what is driving your decisions. Not some asshat with zero vested interest, standing on a soap box.

I don't get how you get angry when I point this out, and then confirm that these are EXACTLY the reasons for your behavior. Nobody else is selling. BFL, for now, owns the market. That may change soon enough, but in the mean time, market forces are exactly what are driving your (and any other rational human being's) behavior. No reason to take offense to that.

Every post you make further solidifies, in my mind, how much of an idiot you are.  The lesser part of me secretly hopes BFL fails and that you and a select few are the ones left holding the bag. However,  I'd be equally satisfied if you end up so embarrassed with yourself that you disappear and the rest of us are never tasked with reading your bullshit again.

I'm adding you to my ignore list, which should have been done long ago.

I liked how you just called names without ever debating any points of my argument. Well played sir. Run away and bury your head in the sand. Seems to be all you're good for...

He can still see my posts. But since I am quoting you, for how much longer I cannot say.
Everyone knows that a few early BFL orders can be converted into more money than they were bought for. Greater fools abound on these forums (I use you as exhibit A). But later orders are worthless. If KNCMiner or Avalon delivers, the secondary market for BFL will evaporate.

Asking for a refund just guarantees you get screwed by BFL. Holding on to a day 1 BFL order until KNCMiner & Avalon deliver (or BFL delivers) is just people trying to salvage a little bit out of 11 months of fail.

[Unacceptable]

Putting my day 1 preorder "up for auction" is NOT an option...............

IF BFL fails to deliver,I AM RESPONSIBLE for paying back that person,not BFL..................I would not jeopardize my principles for money.

Yet,I am greedy enough to hold out hope that BFL will deliver my unit 

End of line...................................................................

[dropt]

What change of subject? I've been trying every possible way to express to you that I'm no longer discussing the days-old topic with you because you proved yourself incapable of remaining in the hypothetical bounds of the discussion put there specifically to stay in rational terms.

FYI, from my end k9's assertions are correct.  You've deflected any points k9's made that bolster his argument and decimate yours.  All I see is you randomly changing the topic and then regurgitating the same sentiment of "no longer discussing days-old topics".  Seems to me the topic is "days-old" because you keep deflecting and dragging it out instead of resolving, or coming to terms, with the issues.

The bASIC drama sounded like it was pretty bad.  How many bASIC units were ever sent out to actual customers?

They got exactly 0 ASICS.  Which is, at the time it all occurred, the same number of ASICs that were delivered by BFL, or anyone for that matter.  The key difference is that Tom of bASIC tried to maintain complete transparency, so when things started to turn sour, it was very apparent that it was occurring.  BFL's underhanded tactics on the other hand have muddied the waters so thoroughly no one has any idea which was is up. They had both shipped many FPGA units, and I'd consider the thought that even at that, Tom was more successful at this attempt with FPGAs than BFL was.

The bottom line is you haven't been around long enough to know all this and have a feel for how each vendor operates.  I have BFL FPGA's, I haven't spent a single satoshi on BFL since.  I haven't even "upgraded".  Why? Because BFL couldn't be trusted then and it can't be trusted now.  Wasn't the last statement from BFL that units from all line ups supposed to be shipping last week? Where are they?  Oh that's right, the shipped some jalepenos and started offering bulk chip sales.

In terms of who's funding BFL that's a good question.  The only thing I know is that a (shill?) blog posted that someone on the inside told him that pre-order funds are secured.  Now, I may not have anything to go on other than speculation, founded in fact or otherwise, but logically I can't see how BFL is still operating unless the bulk is managed under a "non-profit" manner, or the pre-order funds being secured is a fallacy.   Either they've got background cash in play, or they're quickly becoming insolvent.  I agree with Puerto's thesis that a controlled refund wave would benefit BFL, and a non-controlled would spell disaster.



  

[wrenchmonkey]

Putting my day 1 preorder "up for auction" is NOT an option...............

IF BFL fails to deliver,I AM RESPONSIBLE for paying back that person,not BFL..................I would not jeopardize my principles for money.

Yet,I am greedy enough to hold out hope that BFL will deliver my unit  

End of line...................................................................

Fair enough, if you don't want to assume the responsibility, that's understandable. One more example of a reason why people aren't doing what our omniscient, resident-know-it-all, K9, reckons you should... Just in case you missed it, HE was the one telling you what you should do with your money/preorders, not me. 

Your next paragraph serves to reinforce my other point. You believe that you stand to gain financially by waiting. So it's not, as K9 asserts, just an attempt to 'stick it to BFL', and make sure they "don't get an interest-free loan," as he puts it.

[k9quaint]

Putting my day 1 preorder "up for auction" is NOT an option...............

IF BFL fails to deliver,I AM RESPONSIBLE for paying back that person,not BFL..................I would not jeopardize my principles for money.

Yet,I am greedy enough to hold out hope that BFL will deliver my unit  

End of line...................................................................

Fair enough, if you don't want to assume the responsibility, that's understandable. One more example of a reason why people aren't doing what our omniscient, resident-know-it-all, K9, reckons you should... Just in case you missed it, HE was the one telling you what you should do with your money/preorders, not me. 

Your next paragraph serves to reinforce my other point. You believe that you stand to gain financially by waiting. So it's not, as K9 asserts, just an attempt to 'stick it to BFL', and make sure they "don't get an interest-free loan," as he puts it.

Everyone has already admitted that people with a day 1 order of BFL equipment can still find a greater fool to sell it to. You don't need to belabor that point.
And no, I don't want to see people who were promised product 7 months ago get Xian'ed.

Sociopaths such as your self will not see the wrong in a bait and switch scheme, so I won't waste my breath explaining it to you. But promising someone a delivery and then reneging on that promise just because the delivery costs too much or you don't like the person anymore is breach of contract and that is something you will eventually understand as the courts explain it to BFL and they dock your paycheck.

[Unacceptable]

Putting my day 1 preorder "up for auction" is NOT an option...............

IF BFL fails to deliver,I AM RESPONSIBLE for paying back that person,not BFL..................I would not jeopardize my principles for money.

Yet,I am greedy enough to hold out hope that BFL will deliver my unit  

End of line...................................................................

Fair enough, if you don't want to assume the responsibility, that's understandable. One more example of a reason why people aren't doing what our omniscient, resident-know-it-all, K9, reckons you should... Just in case you missed it, HE was the one telling you what you should do with your money/preorders, not me. 

Your next paragraph serves to reinforce my other point. You believe that you stand to gain financially by waiting. So it's not, as K9 asserts, just an attempt to 'stick it to BFL', and make sure they "don't get an interest-free loan," as he puts it.

Everyone has already admitted that people with a day 1 order of BFL equipment can still find a greater fool to sell it to. You don't need to belabor that point.
And no, I don't want to see people who were promised product 7 months ago get Xian'ed.

Sociopaths such as your self will not see the wrong in a bait and switch scheme, so I won't waste my breath explaining it to you. But promising someone a delivery and then reneging on that promise just because the delivery costs too much or you don't like the person anymore is breach of contract and that is something you will eventually understand as the courts explain it to BFL and they dock your paycheck.

K9,I read these forums MANY times a day & know all about you & others & know where you stand man.It's all good bro 

My "point of view" will keep till later 

[k9quaint]

Putting my day 1 preorder "up for auction" is NOT an option...............

IF BFL fails to deliver,I AM RESPONSIBLE for paying back that person,not BFL..................I would not jeopardize my principles for money.

Yet,I am greedy enough to hold out hope that BFL will deliver my unit  

End of line...................................................................

Fair enough, if you don't want to assume the responsibility, that's understandable. One more example of a reason why people aren't doing what our omniscient, resident-know-it-all, K9, reckons you should... Just in case you missed it, HE was the one telling you what you should do with your money/preorders, not me. 

Your next paragraph serves to reinforce my other point. You believe that you stand to gain financially by waiting. So it's not, as K9 asserts, just an attempt to 'stick it to BFL', and make sure they "don't get an interest-free loan," as he puts it.

Everyone has already admitted that people with a day 1 order of BFL equipment can still find a greater fool to sell it to. You don't need to belabor that point.
And no, I don't want to see people who were promised product 7 months ago get Xian'ed.

Sociopaths such as your self will not see the wrong in a bait and switch scheme, so I won't waste my breath explaining it to you. But promising someone a delivery and then reneging on that promise just because the delivery costs too much or you don't like the person anymore is breach of contract and that is something you will eventually understand as the courts explain it to BFL and they dock your paycheck.

K9,I read these forums MANY times a day & know all about you & others & know where you stand man.It's all good bro 

My "point of view" will keep till later 

Fair enough. 

[wrenchmonkey]

Putting my day 1 preorder "up for auction" is NOT an option...............

IF BFL fails to deliver,I AM RESPONSIBLE for paying back that person,not BFL..................I would not jeopardize my principles for money.

Yet,I am greedy enough to hold out hope that BFL will deliver my unit  

End of line...................................................................

Fair enough, if you don't want to assume the responsibility, that's understandable. One more example of a reason why people aren't doing what our omniscient, resident-know-it-all, K9, reckons you should... Just in case you missed it, HE was the one telling you what you should do with your money/preorders, not me. 

Your next paragraph serves to reinforce my other point. You believe that you stand to gain financially by waiting. So it's not, as K9 asserts, just an attempt to 'stick it to BFL', and make sure they "don't get an interest-free loan," as he puts it.

Everyone has already admitted that people with a day 1 order of BFL equipment can still find a greater fool to sell it to. You don't need to belabor that point.

Reading comprehension fail again? Hardly shocking... That's exactly the OPPOSITE of what I was saying. YOU'RE the one suggesting that he needs to sell it off. He intends to make money by either USING it (probably) or selling it once he has it in hand. No "greater fool" crap involved.

And no, I don't want to see people who were promised product 7 months ago get Xian'ed.

Neither do I. I only want to see Xians get xian'd. He only got Xian'ed, because he chose to go around defaming the company, and picking fights with its officers. Plenty of people have made public complaints about BFL without getting 'Xian'ed'. Why? Because there's a difference between complaining, and setting out with a vendetta, on a personal mission to damage a company you hope to do business with. As I've explained to you before, most state consumer protection rules actually REQUIRE the issuance of a refund after a certain amount of time, unless both the seller and the buyer agree to an extension. Which would explain why they had everybody agree to the new terms and conditions on their website.

Same tired and played out pattern of ad hominem attacks, appeals to motives, and accusations of being a shill.

Do you just have a list that you copy/paste your posts from? They're all the same, guy. Get some new material!

[k9quaint]

Do you just have a list that you copy/paste your posts from? They're all the same, guy. Get some new material!

Oh, the irony.

You only show up in threads where BFL faces an existential crisis. The Xian lawsuit thread, the BFL chip sale (or complete lack thereof I should say), this thread which threatened BFL with a wave of refunds. Wherever there is bad press for BFL, you swoop in and derail the threads with the same tired shilling.

I know you don't truly believe that refund requests would help BFL. If you did then you would encourage the refunds instead of fighting so desperately against them. 

[PuertoLibre]

There is more to fear from having your ass-ets frozen.



Courtesy of: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/dbtgallery.php?do=view_image&id=1138&gal=usergallery


Courtesy of: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/polrpaul/186-whats-what.html

[wrenchmonkey]

Do you just have a list that you copy/paste your posts from? They're all the same, guy. Get some new material!

Oh, the irony.

You only show up in threads where BFL faces an existential crisis. The Xian lawsuit thread, the BFL chip sale (or complete lack thereof I should say), this thread which threatened BFL with a wave of refunds. Wherever there is bad press for BFL, you swoop in and derail the threads with the same tired shilling.

I know you don't truly believe that refund requests would help BFL. If you did then you would encourage the refunds instead of fighting so desperately against them.  

Wait. Are you talking about those same threads that YOU keep showing up in?  

I show up in a lot of threads.

I show up in threads stating that I wouldn't order any BFL products until I saw some in the wild.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177565.msg1849501#msg1849501

I show up in Avalon chip threads, and order chips.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=192916.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177994.msg1956955#msg1956955

I show up in threads that are asking for help with hardware.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=200306.msg2101376#msg2101376
And claim a bounty by resolving a network issue
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213956.msg2264504#msg2264504


I show up in board development threads and discuss the development of host boards for avalon chips, and prospectively others.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=189976.40
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=190731.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179769.0

I buy and donate small token amounts of hardware for/to developers, to help them in their development, of AVALON BASED products.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=190731.msg2322130#msg2322130

And I show up in BFL chip threads and say that I don't see any good reason why somebody would jump ship from Avalon, unless the BFL price gets a whole lot better than their current offerings.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222983.msg2359221#msg2359221

And I show up in BFL troll threads and destroy the trolls' absurd 'logic' with ideas that are driven by an interest in the topic, rather than a fetish obsession with BFL and Josh, wherein I make reasonable concessions about BFL's mishandling of their development/launch, while at the same time holding people accountable for their own baseless assertions and conjecture...
QED

Hmmm, hardly a very good pattern for an allegedly 'paid shill', is it? Or maybe I'm just THAT good. Like the Jason Bourne of paid internet forum shills. I guess you'll never know!

I cannot express to you how much I REALLY have so very little financial interest in the success of BFL. I own more than one profitable business, as well as working a full-time job in IT (because I like it, and it gives me some nice extra benefits, vacation money, and almost enough money to pay my annual tax bill, when all is said and done). I also have a wife who is also full-time employed at two different jobs in another industry, because she loves the work, and because it provides even MORE awesome benefits, and even MORE spending cash and vacation money. We like expensive toys.

Bitcoin is and foreseeably always will remain little more than a hobby to me, in comparison to the rest of my income/holdings.

Honestly, a 300 fucking dollar Jalapeno is a novelty to me. My life will continue to go on with NO noticeable change, or a single tear shed for it if, for whatever reason, it doesn't show up. I've lost 15 times that amount in the past year on deals that went bad with international orders, either damaged in shipment, or otherwise unsaleable goods delivered (ordered as samples, etc, etc). It's a tax write-off, as far as I'm concerned, and part of the cost of doing business. My Jalapeno was ordered through a business account, tied to a legitimate tax-paying business, which has the luxury of writing off bad investments, in exchange for paying taxes on the good ones. If/when my BFL order (and the rest of my other ASIC orders, present, and future) they'll be used to generate income through a registered legitimate tax paying business, which, if I was just assuming, is more than MOST miners on this forum can say; so those who go around casting aspersions and wanting to involve the courts into their battles, you MIGHT want to take a quiet moment and consider the repercussions of tax evasion.  

Face it, dude, you've got nothing. You can't figure me out, because I don't fit into either of your two pre-defined boxes.

If you magically find a way to clear the BFL queue, I stand only to gain. Whereas, if the queue remains full, I stand to continue to wait. If BFL fails, I break even because I write it off on my taxes.

I've brought my big-boy pants though, so I'll be okay, whatever the outcome. If you're in a position that a measly $300 toy would drive all of your opinions and actions, I feel sorry for you; but to presuppose that everybody else's motives are rooted in such pettiness is what's truly pitiable here.

[Inaba]

They got exactly 0 ASICS.  Which is, at the time it all occurred, the same number of ASICs that were delivered by BFL, or anyone for that matter.  The key difference is that Tom of bASIC tried to maintain complete transparency, so when things started to turn sour, it was very apparent that it was occurring.  BFL's underhanded tactics on the other hand have muddied the waters so thoroughly no one has any idea which was is up. They had both shipped many FPGA units, and I'd consider the thought that even at that, Tom was more successful at this attempt with FPGAs than BFL was.

What, the transparency where he explicitly, willfully and with full knowledge lied about having a prototype that was hashing, when in fact he had absolutely nothing what so ever?  And maintained that he had a prototype and was in the process of developing this mythical ASIC with these absurd power numbers, when in fact he had done exactly NOTHING.  Not a single thing towards developing an ASIC?  You mean that kind of transparency?

Don't try to rewrite history. Tom was and is a drunk piece of shit.  He's one step away from a scummy used car salesman, nothing more.  He lied from day one about his ASIC bullshit and strung people along with no clear ability or path to delivering.  BFL has made mistakes, yes, but at least we've always had a clear path forward and we've always intended to deliver a product.  Tom... not so much.

Transparency... heh.  What a joke.  Stop trying to rewrite history to bolster your pathetic little argument.

[wrenchmonkey]

^^

k9=pwnd, once again...

[dogie]

They got exactly 0 ASICS.  Which is, at the time it all occurred, the same number of ASICs that were delivered by BFL, or anyone for that matter.  The key difference is that Tom of bASIC tried to maintain complete transparency, so when things started to turn sour, it was very apparent that it was occurring.  BFL's underhanded tactics on the other hand have muddied the waters so thoroughly no one has any idea which was is up. They had both shipped many FPGA units, and I'd consider the thought that even at that, Tom was more successful at this attempt with FPGAs than BFL was.

What, the transparency where he explicitly, willfully and with full knowledge lied about having a prototype that was hashing, when in fact he had absolutely nothing what so ever?  And maintained that he had a prototype and was in the process of developing this mythical ASIC with these absurd power numbers, when in fact he had done exactly NOTHING.  Not a single thing towards developing an ASIC?  You mean that kind of transparency?

Don't try to rewrite history. Tom was and is a drunk piece of shit.  He's one step away from a scummy used car salesman, nothing more.  He lied from day one about his ASIC bullshit and strung people along with no clear ability or path to delivering.  BFL has made mistakes, yes, but at least we've always had a clear path forward and we've always intended to deliver a product.  Tom... not so much.

Transparency... heh.  What a joke.  Stop trying to rewrite history to bolster your pathetic little argument.

I actually had to read this through twice. You've literally described your contribution to the bitcoin world over the last 9 months. The only differences being:
1) You had more investment, you could weather the storm
2) You had the intention of actually making an ASIC

Now for a second forget about the bullshit and the "I think you're doing everything wrong", and honestly just read back what you've posted. You think Tom was a horrific person for seemingly valid reasons [assuming its true, I have no intention of verifying that as its irrelevant]. Can you not understand the hatred you [BFL] and you [personally] have garnered over this time period? Every single sentence just seems to describe what's happened in the last year.

[Inaba]

They got exactly 0 ASICS.  Which is, at the time it all occurred, the same number of ASICs that were delivered by BFL, or anyone for that matter.  The key difference is that Tom of bASIC tried to maintain complete transparency, so when things started to turn sour, it was very apparent that it was occurring.  BFL's underhanded tactics on the other hand have muddied the waters so thoroughly no one has any idea which was is up. They had both shipped many FPGA units, and I'd consider the thought that even at that, Tom was more successful at this attempt with FPGAs than BFL was.

What, the transparency where he explicitly, willfully and with full knowledge lied about having a prototype that was hashing, when in fact he had absolutely nothing what so ever?  And maintained that he had a prototype and was in the process of developing this mythical ASIC with these absurd power numbers, when in fact he had done exactly NOTHING.  Not a single thing towards developing an ASIC?  You mean that kind of transparency?

Don't try to rewrite history. Tom was and is a drunk piece of shit.  He's one step away from a scummy used car salesman, nothing more.  He lied from day one about his ASIC bullshit and strung people along with no clear ability or path to delivering.  BFL has made mistakes, yes, but at least we've always had a clear path forward and we've always intended to deliver a product.  Tom... not so much.

Transparency... heh.  What a joke.  Stop trying to rewrite history to bolster your pathetic little argument.

I actually had to read this through twice. You've literally described your contribution to the bitcoin world over the last 9 months. The only differences being:
1) You had more investment, you could weather the storm
2) You had the intention of actually making an ASIC

Now for a second forget about the bullshit and the "I think you're doing everything wrong", and honestly just read back what you've posted. You think Tom was a horrific person for seemingly valid reasons [assuming its true, I have no intention of verifying that as its irrelevant]. Can you not understand the hatred you [BFL] and you [personally] have garnered over this time period? Every single sentence just seems to describe what's happened in the last year.

Except, you now, the part about... umm, all of it, you mean?

The point of my post: 

1. Tom was unable to handle creating an ASIC.
2. BFL had the intention of making an ASIC, Tom apparently did not, although this is speculative, maybe he did, but he did a piss poor job of it.

Contrast to BFL who A) Is and was able to handle creating an ASIC and B) had the intention of making an ASIC.  So your post is complete nonsense.  Is does not describe BFL in any way, shape or form.  Try again.  You are at 100% fail so far in this thread, can you maybe make a single post where you don't fall flat on your face?

[dogie]

They got exactly 0 ASICS.  Which is, at the time it all occurred, the same number of ASICs that were delivered by BFL, or anyone for that matter.  The key difference is that Tom of bASIC tried to maintain complete transparency, so when things started to turn sour, it was very apparent that it was occurring.  BFL's underhanded tactics on the other hand have muddied the waters so thoroughly no one has any idea which was is up. They had both shipped many FPGA units, and I'd consider the thought that even at that, Tom was more successful at this attempt with FPGAs than BFL was.

What, the transparency where he explicitly, willfully and with full knowledge lied about having a prototype that was hashing, when in fact he had absolutely nothing what so ever?  And maintained that he had a prototype and was in the process of developing this mythical ASIC with these absurd power numbers, when in fact he had done exactly NOTHING.  Not a single thing towards developing an ASIC?  You mean that kind of transparency?

Don't try to rewrite history. Tom was and is a drunk piece of shit.  He's one step away from a scummy used car salesman, nothing more.  He lied from day one about his ASIC bullshit and strung people along with no clear ability or path to delivering.  BFL has made mistakes, yes, but at least we've always had a clear path forward and we've always intended to deliver a product.  Tom... not so much.

Transparency... heh.  What a joke.  Stop trying to rewrite history to bolster your pathetic little argument.

I actually had to read this through twice. You've literally described your contribution to the bitcoin world over the last 9 months. The only differences being:
1) You had more investment, you could weather the storm
2) You had the intention of actually making an ASIC

Now for a second forget about the bullshit and the "I think you're doing everything wrong", and honestly just read back what you've posted. You think Tom was a horrific person for seemingly valid reasons [assuming its true, I have no intention of verifying that as its irrelevant]. Can you not understand the hatred you [BFL] and you [personally] have garnered over this time period? Every single sentence just seems to describe what's happened in the last year.

Except, you now, the part about... umm, all of it, you mean?

The point of my post: 

1. Tom was unable to handle creating an ASIC.
2. BFL had the intention of making an ASIC, Tom apparently did not, although this is speculative, maybe he did, but he did a piss poor job of it.

Contrast to BFL who A) Is and was able to handle creating an ASIC and B) had the intention of making an ASIC.  So your post is complete nonsense.  Is does not describe BFL in any way, shape or form.  Try again.  You are at 100% fail so far in this thread, can you maybe make a single post where you don't fall flat on your face?

*sigh* I was being nice, and I didn't/don't disagree with 1. and 2.. I can understand why you're so defensive, I would be with the amount of shit hurled at you. Its up to you if you want to try and understand why the shit is hurled, or you can just attack anyone who walks near you. Maybe if you took some time to understand why, then you'd [bfl] have a better chance at fixing it and a lot easier time.

Its up to you, its not my long term mental health that is at risk.

[FCTaiChi]

Wrong, it's a matter of degree Inaba, someone may come right up to the peak and not make it over, whereas someone else will be just barely more prepared, and slightly less incompetent, and still make it.

Don't try to rewrite history. Tom was and is a drunk piece of shit.  He's one step away from a scummy used car salesman, nothing more.  He lied from day one about his ASIC bullshit and strung people along with no clear ability or path to delivering.  BFL has made mistakes, yes, but at least we've always had a clear path forward and we've always intended to deliver a product.  Tom... not so much.

Has anyone compiled a list of your invective?  I think that may be fun to read   Possibly good for newbs to know before they get involved..

[Inaba]

Wrong, it's a matter of degree Inaba, someone may come right up to the peak and not make it over, whereas someone else will be just barely more prepared, and slightly less incompetent, and still make it.

Don't try to rewrite history. Tom was and is a drunk piece of shit.  He's one step away from a scummy used car salesman, nothing more.  He lied from day one about his ASIC bullshit and strung people along with no clear ability or path to delivering.  BFL has made mistakes, yes, but at least we've always had a clear path forward and we've always intended to deliver a product.  Tom... not so much.

Has anyone compiled a list of your invective?  I think that may be fun to read  Possibly good for newbs to know before they get involved..

I would love if someone did... then there'd be a central place that I can point to and say "You're full of shit, this is what I said, not your mindless bullshit you keep peddling."  Instead, right now, people post all sorts of mindless bullshit they make up, I ask them to prove it with quotes/links and they fail and go on with their crap.  I mean, just look at any BFL thread and anything that comes out of PuertoLibre, Frizz, et al is 90% manufactured bullshit with nothing substantive to back up their ramblings, yet they keep peddling it as if it were truth.  If you try to get them to back up their claims, they become strangely silent.

Yes, please make it so!

[FCTaiChi]

I'm not opposed to the idea that you could have valid reasons for everything that has happened.  Like a majority of the people on the forum I just haven't seen it.  It seems like there are consistently unfulfilled promises, and when people point that out they get ignored, or have ad hominem thrown at them.  How can this be justified?  Because it's cool?  You're in a company man, grow up.  The people that you are talking to may be completely pissed off and unreasonable, but look at it from their point of view, they feel totally screwed with.  If you tried to explain things calmly instead of making people feel ridiculous all the time, I think you would be much better off.

[Xian01]

Wrong, it's a matter of degree Inaba, someone may come right up to the peak and not make it over, whereas someone else will be just barely more prepared, and slightly less incompetent, and still make it.

Don't try to rewrite history. Tom was and is a drunk piece of shit.  He's one step away from a scummy used car salesman, nothing more.  He lied from day one about his ASIC bullshit and strung people along with no clear ability or path to delivering.  BFL has made mistakes, yes, but at least we've always had a clear path forward and we've always intended to deliver a product.  Tom... not so much.

Has anyone compiled a list of your invective?  I think that may be fun to read  Possibly good for newbs to know before they get involved..

I would love if someone did... then there'd be a central place that I can point to and say "You're full of shit, this is what I said, not your mindless bullshit you keep peddling."  

 I would appreciate this as well. Will be helpful in the coming weeks.

[Inaba]

I'm not opposed to the idea that you could have valid reasons for everything that has happened.  Like a majority of the people on the forum I just haven't seen it.  It seems like there are consistently unfulfilled promises, and when people point that out they get ignored, or have ad hominem thrown at them.  How can this be justified?  Because it's cool?  You're in a company man, grow up.  The people that you are talking to may be completely pissed off and unreasonable, but look at it from their point of view, they feel totally screwed with.  If you tried to explain things calmly instead of making people feel ridiculous all the time, I think you would be much better off.

Been there, tried that.  Doesn't work.  When you have inheriently irrational people like PL, Frizz, etc... who's sole purpose is to denigrate BFL, regardless of facts, truth and honesty, it doesn't matter what you say.  They will fabricate whatever information that need to make their statements.  Like I said, any time you try to get them to back up their ridiculous statements, they deflect or ignore.  Go ahead and try it... go pick out one of their ridiculous statements then get them to provide some proof or convincing evidence for their position... you'll get nothing in return. 

I would appreciate this as well. Will be helpful in the coming weeks.

Yes Xian, we've all heard, ad naseum, about how you're going to mount the awesome legal offensive against BFL.  Nobody cares, haven't you figured that out yet?  Just get on with it, all this posturing you are doing is just making you look like more of a tool than anything else.  Like someone already said, if you really had legal council, you wouldn't be posting on the forum.  You're a joke, man, move on.

[Xian01]

Yes Xian, we've all heard, ad naseum, about how you're going to mount the awesome legal offensive against BFL.

 Patience. Dotting our I's and crossing our T's.

 Nobody cares, haven't you figured that out yet?  Just get on with it, all this posturing you are doing is just making you look like more of a tool than anything else.  Like someone already said, if you really had legal council, you wouldn't be posting on the forum.  You're a joke, man, move on.

 I don't believe I am saying anything offensive, detrimental, uncivil, false, slanderous or libelous.

 In fact, I'll do you one better, seeing as how I've never directly addressed you about this, here we go.

 Josh, honestly and truly, in retrospect, I'm sorry I lost my cool and telling you to "Fuck off and eat a bag of dicks". I know you guys have been under a tremendous amount of stress over the last 11 months, and I'm sure some angry customer like me was the last thing you wanted to deal with.

 I apologize for getting so wildly bent-out-of-shape over this entire development.

 Please understand that came from a place of a frustration I have never experienced before, and, well, here we are.
 
 I wish I could go back and be more chill about the situation and not harangue you as bitterly and explicitly as I did.

 I'm very sorry that you think I'm a joke. Even more sorry we could not resolve this dispute civilly.

 All I can say is, I've been patient for 11 months. I hope you can appreciate me asking you to remain patient for a little while longer.

[Inaba]

I appreciate the apology, but it's pretty hard to take seriously when, in the same post (and many others), you continue to talk up how you're going to bring about an epic lawsuit against BFL.  

I don't believe I am saying anything offensive, detrimental, uncivil, false, slanderous or libelous.

You're absolutely right, you're not.  You're just being threatening (in the legal sense).  Much like physical threats, I do not respond well to either.  Like I said, if you're going to do it, skin that hogleg and go to work; quit talking about it.  You have made your intent to initiate legal proceedings very clear, so there's nothing more to say other than "see you in court."

[dropt]

What, the transparency where he explicitly, willfully and with full knowledge lied about having a prototype that was hashing, when in fact he had absolutely nothing what so ever?  And maintained that he had a prototype and was in the process of developing this mythical ASIC with these absurd power numbers, when in fact he had done exactly NOTHING.  Not a single thing towards developing an ASIC?  You mean that kind of transparency?

Which is why it was readily apparent when things started going sour.  Speaking of absurd power numbers, quit projecting your shortfalls onto myself and others.  I won't comment on what I think of Tom, but your views and mine aren't too far apart.

BFL has made mistakes, yes, but at least we've always had a clear path forward and we've always intended to deliver a product.  Tom... not so much.

I merely said BFL couldn't be trusted, and still can't. 

[Xian01]

I appreciate the apology, but it's pretty hard to take seriously when, in the same post (and many others), you continue to talk up how you're going to bring about an epic lawsuit against BFL.  

I don't believe I am saying anything offensive, detrimental, uncivil, false, slanderous or libelous.

You're absolutely right, you're not.  You're just being threatening (in the legal sense).  Much like physical threats, I do not respond well to either.  Like I said, if you're going to do it, skin that hogleg and go to work; quit talking about it.  You have made your intent to initiate legal proceedings very clear, so there's nothing more to say other than "see you in court."

 The letter has not yet been sent.

 It's not too late to settle this civilly via email.

 With all due respect, I'm trying to be as reasonable and civil as possible. I am sorry you feel threatened.

 You should have no reason to feel threatened if you have done nothing wrong.

[miter_myles]

[Inaba]

Which is why it was readily apparent when things started going sour.  Speaking of absurd power numbers, quit projecting your shortfalls onto myself and others.  I won't comment on what I think of Tom, but your views and mine aren't too far apart.

Readily apparent?  What kind of drugs are you on?  Things were sour from day 1... where's your transparency?    You were talking about transparency, I was responding to your post about transparency.  What are you talking about now?  There was zero transparency.  If there was any transparency, then no one would have sent him a dime, since he lied about having a prototype from day 1.  

I merely said BFL couldn't be trusted, and still can't.  

No, you said:

The key difference is that Tom of bASIC tried to maintain complete transparency, so when things started to turn sour, it was very apparent that it was occurring.  BFL's underhanded tactics on the other hand have muddied the waters so thoroughly no one has any idea which was is up. They had both shipped many FPGA units, and I'd consider the thought that even at that, Tom was more successful at this attempt with FPGAs than BFL was.

1) That Tom was transparent.  A blatantly incorrect statement by any definition.
2) That somehow Tom was more successful than BFL at shipping FPGAs when the number of ModMiners in the wild compared to the number of BFL units are staggering.  Do you even have any idea how many FPGA units BFL shipped?  Thousands upon thousands.  When I say BFL funded ASIC development with FPGA profits, I am not exaggerating or lying.  The FPGA line was very, very lucrative and successful.  Tom did fine as a hobby supplier, but as an actual business it was exceptionally low volume.  
3) I know you like to believe there are underhanded tactics, but that is simply not the case, you are just buying into the kool-aid at that point.  BFL made mistakes, sure, but unlike what some would have you believe, we've never lied or intentionally mislead anyone.  Call us incompetent if you want, whatever.  The fact is, we have built an assembly and distribution channel that dwarfs all other ASIC and FPGA offerings combined, several times over.  We've made missteps along the way and we are working to correct those as quickly as possible.  I've apologized numerous times for it and that's all I can offer at this point and move forward.  If I could go back in time to change things, I absolutely would, but the BFL Time Turner won't be ready for another 4 - 6 weeks.

[Inaba]

I appreciate the apology, but it's pretty hard to take seriously when, in the same post (and many others), you continue to talk up how you're going to bring about an epic lawsuit against BFL.  

I don't believe I am saying anything offensive, detrimental, uncivil, false, slanderous or libelous.

You're absolutely right, you're not.  You're just being threatening (in the legal sense).  Much like physical threats, I do not respond well to either.  Like I said, if you're going to do it, skin that hogleg and go to work; quit talking about it.  You have made your intent to initiate legal proceedings very clear, so there's nothing more to say other than "see you in court."

 The letter has not yet been sent.

 It's not too late to settle this civilly via email.

 With all due respect, I'm trying to be as reasonable and civil as possible. I am sorry you feel threatened.

 You should have no reason to feel threatened if you have done nothing wrong.

I don't feel threatened by you in any way, I said you were being threatening, that's why I'm telling you to get on with it and quit yakkin' about it.  Just because a chihuahua arches it back, growls and yips in a threatening manner at a person doesn't mean the person is threatened by the chihuahua.  Sometimes it's even cute.

[Xian01]

I appreciate the apology, but it's pretty hard to take seriously when, in the same post (and many others), you continue to talk up how you're going to bring about an epic lawsuit against BFL.  

I don't believe I am saying anything offensive, detrimental, uncivil, false, slanderous or libelous.

You're absolutely right, you're not.  You're just being threatening (in the legal sense).  Much like physical threats, I do not respond well to either.  Like I said, if you're going to do it, skin that hogleg and go to work; quit talking about it.  You have made your intent to initiate legal proceedings very clear, so there's nothing more to say other than "see you in court."

 The letter has not yet been sent.

 It's not too late to settle this civilly via email.

 With all due respect, I'm trying to be as reasonable and civil as possible. I am sorry you feel threatened.

 You should have no reason to feel threatened if you have done nothing wrong.

I don't feel threatened by you in any way, I said you were being threatening, that's why I'm telling you to get on with it and quit yakkin' about it.  Just because a chihuahua arches it back, grows and yips in a threatening manner at a person doesn't mean the person is threatened by the chihuahua.  Sometimes it's even cute.

 

Ok. I tried.

[YipYip]

I appreciate the apology, but it's pretty hard to take seriously when, in the same post (and many others), you continue to talk up how you're going to bring about an epic lawsuit against BFL.  

I don't believe I am saying anything offensive, detrimental, uncivil, false, slanderous or libelous.

You're absolutely right, you're not.  You're just being threatening (in the legal sense).  Much like physical threats, I do not respond well to either.  Like I said, if you're going to do it, skin that hogleg and go to work; quit talking about it.  You have made your intent to initiate legal proceedings very clear, so there's nothing more to say other than "see you in court."

 The letter has not yet been sent.

 It's not too late to settle this civilly via email.

 With all due respect, I'm trying to be as reasonable and civil as possible. I am sorry you feel threatened.

 You should have no reason to feel threatened if you have done nothing wrong.

Keep mining using other pples property... I think u would actrually call that theft ... but you peopel at  fraud.inc  dont really know what is right and wrong anymore due to the never ending lies and deceptions

Karma is a biatch when it comes back @ u Josh...... How can u look in a mirror ..is it because WE are the bad guys who are trying to supress u ... so it justify's mining with pre-order equipment ...was this somthing u would never do ..oh wait a miniute we are talking about BFL ...and actually you Josh ..u seem to have been guided by the master conman and have now exceeding all the training that sonny could give... I am sure he is a proud father just like King COn Man was to SOnny himself !!...


P.S There seems to be a mysterious single miner with over 1600 btc in the last week ... gee i wonder who that is Josh !!!!

I think the FCC need to know about your unlicensed products dont u think or have u already contacted them I am sure I could help hook u up to the right people at the FCC or does BFL have one of those fantansy FCC exempt cards u won in monopoly ?

[Noitev]

Wrong, it's a matter of degree Inaba, someone may come right up to the peak and not make it over, whereas someone else will be just barely more prepared, and slightly less incompetent, and still make it.

Don't try to rewrite history. Tom was and is a drunk piece of shit.  He's one step away from a scummy used car salesman, nothing more.  He lied from day one about his ASIC bullshit and strung people along with no clear ability or path to delivering.  BFL has made mistakes, yes, but at least we've always had a clear path forward and we've always intended to deliver a product.  Tom... not so much.

Has anyone compiled a list of your invective?  I think that may be fun to read  Possibly good for newbs to know before they get involved..

I would love if someone did... then there'd be a central place that I can point to and say "You're full of shit, this is what I said, not your mindless bullshit you keep peddling."  Instead, right now, people post all sorts of mindless bullshit they make up, I ask them to prove it with quotes/links and they fail and go on with their crap.  I mean, just look at any BFL thread and anything that comes out of PuertoLibre, Frizz, et al is 90% manufactured bullshit with nothing substantive to back up their ramblings, yet they keep peddling it as if it were truth.  If you try to get them to back up their claims, they become strangely silent.

Yes, please make it so!

I don't get it, the facts are pretty clear.

-Pre-orders opened June 2012
-Only shipped orders are orders in June and July and only The Jalapenos
-The power consumption you promised was not what the actual power consumption is.
-You made a 1000 BTC bet backing that up to give faith to people pre-ordering.
-The specs changed. You (sort of) paid the bet, but the customers are ending up with a product they didn't order.
-There are several times in the past year you said pre-orders would ship in large quantities, yet only jalapenos have shipped according to posts on your site and only those ordered very early.
(I can quote these if you really want me to.)

Regardless of all the mishaps, I really can't blame you for much, that's the risk people bought into when they pre-ordered BFL. But the thing is the people ended buying stock with 0% dividends. I think the best option is to offer a 5% yearly appreciation of pre-orders that are at least 3 months old as a partial refund to the people with those orders.

I totally agree with Inaba on the made up stuff and trolling, but the entire mining economy is insane with all promises having been broken at the same time. Everyone is angry at everyone, this is the only solution that I can really think of to alleviate everyone's anger.

[Noitev]

I appreciate the apology, but it's pretty hard to take seriously when, in the same post (and many others), you continue to talk up how you're going to bring about an epic lawsuit against BFL.  

I don't believe I am saying anything offensive, detrimental, uncivil, false, slanderous or libelous.

You're absolutely right, you're not.  You're just being threatening (in the legal sense).  Much like physical threats, I do not respond well to either.  Like I said, if you're going to do it, skin that hogleg and go to work; quit talking about it.  You have made your intent to initiate legal proceedings very clear, so there's nothing more to say other than "see you in court."

 The letter has not yet been sent.

 It's not too late to settle this civilly via email.

 With all due respect, I'm trying to be as reasonable and civil as possible. I am sorry you feel threatened.

 You should have no reason to feel threatened if you have done nothing wrong.

Keep mining using other pples property... I think u would actrually call that theft ... but you peopel at  fraud.inc  dont really know what is right and wrong anymore due to the never ending lies and deceptions

Karma is a biatch when it comes back @ u Josh...... How can u look in a mirror ..is it because WE are the bad guys who are trying to supress u ... so it justify's mining with pre-order equipment ...was this somthing u would never do ..oh wait a miniute we are talking about BFL ...and actually you Josh ..u seem to have been guided by the master conman and have now exceeding all the training that sonny could give... I am sure he is a proud father just like King COn Man was to SOnny himself !!...


P.S There seems to be a mysterious single miner with over 1600 btc in the last week ... gee i wonder who that is Josh !!!!

I think the FCC need to know about your unlicensed products dont u think or have u already contacted them I am sure I could help hook u up to the right people at the FCC or does BFL have one of those fantansy FCC exempt cards u won in monopoly ?

I seriously have no idea what this crap is for example...

You can prove it's unlicensed?

I'm also totally sure you can't prove that 1600 BTC number either...

What does the FCC have to do with anything?

Trolls will be trolls.

[dropt]

Readily apparent?  What kind of drugs are you on?  Things were sour from day 1... where's your transparency?    You were talking about transparency, I was responding to your post about transparency.  What are you talking about now?  There was zero transparency.  If there was any transparency, then no one would have sent him a dime, since he lied about having a prototype from day 1.  

  I'm quite certain that Tom did not claim he had a running prototype when announcing (day 1) bASIC.  That aside, if you're so certain that bASIC was lies and deceit from the beginning then why did you, on behalf of BFL, vow to match the provided hash rate of competitors (that shipped).  If they were no threat you could have easily kept the originally planned 40GH/s instead of catering to bASIC's planned 52 GH/s, how much easier would BFL's collective life be if they had never made these promises?

2) That somehow Tom was more successful than BFL at shipping FPGAs when the number of ModMiners in the wild compared to the number of BFL units are staggering.  Do you even have any idea how many FPGA units BFL shipped?  Thousands upon thousands.  When I say BFL funded ASIC development with FPGA profits, I am not exaggerating or lying.  The FPGA line was very, very lucrative and successful.  Tom did fine as a hobby supplier, but as an actual business it was exceptionally low volume.  

   I suppose we value the success of a business by different metrics, but I stand by my belief, and admit that you're entitled to your own.  The FPGA line *was* very, very lucrative and successful, I wholeheartedly agree.  I can't understand why BFL chose to stop selling them, and I know you've echo'd the sentiment that that is yet another mistake that BFL has made.

3) I know you like to believe there are underhanded tactics, but that is simply not the case, you are just buying into the kool-aid at that point.  BFL made mistakes, sure, but unlike what some would have you believe, we've never lied or intentionally mislead anyone.  Call us incompetent if you want, whatever.  The fact is, we have built an assembly and distribution channel that dwarfs all other ASIC and FPGA offerings combined, several times over.  We've made missteps along the way and we are working to correct those as quickly as possible.  I've apologized numerous times for it and that's all I can offer at this point and move forward.  If I could go back in time to change things, I absolutely would, but the BFL Time Turner won't be ready for another 4 - 6 weeks.

I respect your beliefs, and yes it's good that you admit that BFL has made a lot of mistakes.  I also recognize that a lot of this mess shouldn't even fall on your shoulders since you weren't a part of BFL when this all began.  However, that does not excuse the current state of affairs.  If BFL, as you claim, has completely funded their ASIC endeavour with FPGAs, then why didn't they develop it in secret until the point they were at in the beginning of April, why the mysterious investors?  I can't think of anything but underhanded tactics to capture a huge market share as the reason for the announcement being made when it was.  Hell, BFL hadn't even shipped their first mini-rig before they started this mess.  

Really though, I'm not interested in communicating with you either on or off of the forums.  You have not made yourself out to be the type of person I wish to associate with.  While I respect things relating to your individuality, I do not respect you.  With that said, I won't be taking the time to respond to you further.

[YipYip]

I appreciate the apology, but it's pretty hard to take seriously when, in the same post (and many others), you continue to talk up how you're going to bring about an epic lawsuit against BFL.  

I don't believe I am saying anything offensive, detrimental, uncivil, false, slanderous or libelous.

You're absolutely right, you're not.  You're just being threatening (in the legal sense).  Much like physical threats, I do not respond well to either.  Like I said, if you're going to do it, skin that hogleg and go to work; quit talking about it.  You have made your intent to initiate legal proceedings very clear, so there's nothing more to say other than "see you in court."

 The letter has not yet been sent.

 It's not too late to settle this civilly via email.

 With all due respect, I'm trying to be as reasonable and civil as possible. I am sorry you feel threatened.

 You should have no reason to feel threatened if you have done nothing wrong.

Keep mining using other pples property... I think u would actrually call that theft ... but you peopel at  fraud.inc  dont really know what is right and wrong anymore due to the never ending lies and deceptions

Karma is a biatch when it comes back @ u Josh...... How can u look in a mirror ..is it because WE are the bad guys who are trying to supress u ... so it justify's mining with pre-order equipment ...was this somthing u would never do ..oh wait a miniute we are talking about BFL ...and actually you Josh ..u seem to have been guided by the master conman and have now exceeding all the training that sonny could give... I am sure he is a proud father just like King COn Man was to SOnny himself !!...


P.S There seems to be a mysterious single miner with over 1600 btc in the last week ... gee i wonder who that is Josh !!!!

I think the FCC need to know about your unlicensed products dont u think or have u already contacted them I am sure I could help hook u up to the right people at the FCC or does BFL have one of those fantansy FCC exempt cards u won in monopoly ?

I seriously have no idea what this crap is for example...

You can prove it's unlicensed?

I'm also totally sure you can't prove that 1600 BTC number either...

What does the FCC have to do with anything?

Trolls will be trolls.

Actually  Phenous Gage has done many search's and there have been no applictions by BFL

So ... once again us troll's with the truth ... are troll's

Or plain and simple give us the FCC lic num relating to the BFL products !!!

Oh wait .. we are just trolls... is that what it is and all rules and regulation dont relate to BFL because they are special

[Noitev]

I appreciate the apology, but it's pretty hard to take seriously when, in the same post (and many others), you continue to talk up how you're going to bring about an epic lawsuit against BFL.  

I don't believe I am saying anything offensive, detrimental, uncivil, false, slanderous or libelous.

You're absolutely right, you're not.  You're just being threatening (in the legal sense).  Much like physical threats, I do not respond well to either.  Like I said, if you're going to do it, skin that hogleg and go to work; quit talking about it.  You have made your intent to initiate legal proceedings very clear, so there's nothing more to say other than "see you in court."

 The letter has not yet been sent.

 It's not too late to settle this civilly via email.

 With all due respect, I'm trying to be as reasonable and civil as possible. I am sorry you feel threatened.

 You should have no reason to feel threatened if you have done nothing wrong.

Keep mining using other pples property... I think u would actrually call that theft ... but you peopel at  fraud.inc  dont really know what is right and wrong anymore due to the never ending lies and deceptions

Karma is a biatch when it comes back @ u Josh...... How can u look in a mirror ..is it because WE are the bad guys who are trying to supress u ... so it justify's mining with pre-order equipment ...was this somthing u would never do ..oh wait a miniute we are talking about BFL ...and actually you Josh ..u seem to have been guided by the master conman and have now exceeding all the training that sonny could give... I am sure he is a proud father just like King COn Man was to SOnny himself !!...


P.S There seems to be a mysterious single miner with over 1600 btc in the last week ... gee i wonder who that is Josh !!!!

I think the FCC need to know about your unlicensed products dont u think or have u already contacted them I am sure I could help hook u up to the right people at the FCC or does BFL have one of those fantansy FCC exempt cards u won in monopoly ?

I seriously have no idea what this crap is for example...

You can prove it's unlicensed?

I'm also totally sure you can't prove that 1600 BTC number either...

What does the FCC have to do with anything?

Trolls will be trolls.

Actually  Phenous Gage has done many search's and there have been no applictions by BFL

So ... once again us troll's with the truth ... are troll's

Or plain and simple give us the FCC lic num relating to the BFL products !!!

Oh wait .. we are just trolls... is that what it is and all rules and regulation dont relate to BFL because they are special

Dude I'm serious, give me a something to work with, I'd love to add that to my list of reasons BFL is shady, but seriously, saying another user searched for it isn't good enough. I don't own a jalapeno and have no idea to look up. Can you also explain why it needs fcc licensing? I'm not trying to counter-troll, I honestly want to know.

[Inaba]

 I'm quite certain that Tom did not claim he had a running prototype when announcing (day 1) bASIC.  That aside, if you're so certain that bASIC was lies and deceit from the beginning then why did you, on behalf of BFL, vow to match the provided hash rate of competitors (that shipped).  If they were no threat you could have easily kept the originally planned 40GH/s instead of catering to bASIC's planned 52 GH/s, how much easier would BFL's collective life be if they had never made these promises?

You are quite certain of that, are you?  This shows that what you know is, in a word, nothing:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1157524#msg1157524
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1157583#msg1157583

This is why I say you don't know what you're talking about.  You say you are quite certain of something that is patently false, can be demonstrated to be false, yet you still maintain it as true and that you're "certain of it."  Really, the very definition of a troll.

As to why, it doesn't matter if it was a lie or not on the part of Tom.  To remain competitive, we had to match his bogus claims.  I stated as much that they were bogus at the time, but what can you do?  Nothing but forge ahead.  At the time, for us, it wasn't that big of a match.  It really doesn't make much of a difference in the end to us, either way we'd still be doing the same thing we are now.

 I suppose we value the success of a business by different metrics, but I stand by my belief, and admit that you're entitled to your own.  The FPGA line *was* very, very lucrative and successful, I wholeheartedly agree.  I can't understand why BFL chose to stop selling them, and I know you've echo'd the sentiment that that is yet another mistake that BFL has made.

Because we thought we would have the ASICs out by the end of October.  That seems quite obvious...

I respect your beliefs, and yes it's good that you admit that BFL has made a lot of mistakes.  I also recognize that a lot of this mess shouldn't even fall on your shoulders since you weren't a part of BFL when this all began.  However, that does not excuse the current state of affairs.  If BFL, as you claim, has completely funded their ASIC endeavour with FPGAs, then why didn't they develop it in secret until the point they were at in the beginning of April, why the mysterious investors?  I can't think of anything but underhanded tactics to capture a huge market share as the reason for the announcement being made when it was.  Hell, BFL hadn't even shipped their first mini-rig before they started this mess.

You'd have to ask the people who made that decision at the time, not me.  As you said, I wasn't working for the company at that time.  However, lets say your premise is true.  That's not underhanded tactics, that is normal business operating procedure.  Just about every major tech company does it.  I'm not saying that's what happened, merely pointing out the fact that it's normal procedure.  Regardless, though, given the other evidence (FPGA being discontinued, etc...) it would seem to indicate that we thought we'd have the products out much sooner than we did.  That did not happen, obviously, but that does not make it deceitful or underhanded.  It makes it a mistake and an overestimation.

Really though, I'm not interested in communicating with you either on or off of the forums.  You have not made yourself out to be the type of person I wish to associate with.  While I respect things relating to your individuality, I do not respect you.  With that said, I won't be taking the time to respond to you further.

Then don't post lies and BS and you'll never have to communicate with me.  I don't want to associate with nor do I have any respect for people who are unable to separate fact from fiction, but I'm forced to because you try to spew your false information out to anyone who will listen.  If you stuck to facts and were honest and truthful, we'd have nothing to discuss.  Instead, you choose to delve into fantasy and false information to further your agenda.

I like how you won't be responding to me any further, after your ass has been handed to you several times in the past few posts.  It's always the last resort of the troll: "I'm too good/busy/awesome/etc to continue this conversation" which is a translation for "My position is so weak, I'm going to run away with my tail between my legs."

[dropt]

Dude I'm serious, give me a something to work with, I'd love to add that to my list of reasons BFL is shady, but seriously, saying another user searched for it isn't good enough.

IIRC during the BFL/bASIC fiasco BFL made claim to having applied for FCC certification to the extent that a unit, prototype or other, was or was en route to a testing facility.  There has been no such application according to the inquest of one Phinnaeus Guage.  Should the statement have in fact been made, it would be at least one verifiable lie made by BFL.

[Noitev]

Dude I'm serious, give me a something to work with, I'd love to add that to my list of reasons BFL is shady, but seriously, saying another user searched for it isn't good enough.

IIRC during the BFL/bASIC fiasco BFL made claim to having applied for FCC certification to the extent that a unit, prototype or other, was or was en route to a testing facility.  There has been no such application according to the inquest of one Phinnaeus Guage.  Should the statement have in fact been made, it would be at least one verifiable lie made by BFL.

I mean I get that, I just kinda want quotes, and maybe how he searched for it...

[dropt]

You are quite certain of that, are you?  This shows that what you know is, in a word, nothing:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1157524#msg1157524
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1157583#msg1157583

This is why I say you don't know what you're talking about.  You say you are quite certain of something that is patently false, can be demonstrated to be false, yet you still maintain it as true and that you're "certain of it."  Really, the very definition of a troll.

Despite my earlier statement of not replying, I will since it appears I was incorrect.  I will not add to that any form of certainty as it's not verifiable by you or myself that there never actually was a prototype, although I'll concede that it is unlikely there ever was.

[PuertoLibre]

They got exactly 0 ASICS.  Which is, at the time it all occurred, the same number of ASICs that were delivered by BFL, or anyone for that matter.  The key difference is that Tom of bASIC tried to maintain complete transparency, so when things started to turn sour, it was very apparent that it was occurring.  BFL's underhanded tactics on the other hand have muddied the waters so thoroughly no one has any idea which was is up. They had both shipped many FPGA units, and I'd consider the thought that even at that, Tom was more successful at this attempt with FPGAs than BFL was.

What, the transparency where he explicitly, willfully and with full knowledge lied about having a prototype that was hashing, when in fact he had absolutely nothing what so ever?  And maintained that he had a prototype and was in the process of developing this mythical ASIC with these absurd power numbers, when in fact he had done exactly NOTHING.  Not a single thing towards developing an ASIC?  You mean that kind of transparency?

Don't try to rewrite history. Tom was and is a drunk piece of shit.  He's one step away from a scummy used car salesman, nothing more.  He lied from day one about his ASIC bullshit and strung people along with no clear ability or path to delivering.  BFL has made mistakes, yes, but at least we've always had a clear path forward and we've always intended to deliver a product.  Tom... not so much.

Transparency... heh.  What a joke.  Stop trying to rewrite history to bolster your pathetic little argument.

So clear, it was mistakenly targeted a year too early.

[PuertoLibre]

They got exactly 0 ASICS.  Which is, at the time it all occurred, the same number of ASICs that were delivered by BFL, or anyone for that matter.  The key difference is that Tom of bASIC tried to maintain complete transparency, so when things started to turn sour, it was very apparent that it was occurring.  BFL's underhanded tactics on the other hand have muddied the waters so thoroughly no one has any idea which was is up. They had both shipped many FPGA units, and I'd consider the thought that even at that, Tom was more successful at this attempt with FPGAs than BFL was.

What, the transparency where he explicitly, willfully and with full knowledge lied about having a prototype that was hashing, when in fact he had absolutely nothing what so ever?  And maintained that he had a prototype and was in the process of developing this mythical ASIC with these absurd power numbers, when in fact he had done exactly NOTHING.  Not a single thing towards developing an ASIC?  You mean that kind of transparency?

Don't try to rewrite history. Tom was and is a drunk piece of shit.  He's one step away from a scummy used car salesman, nothing more.  He lied from day one about his ASIC bullshit and strung people along with no clear ability or path to delivering.  BFL has made mistakes, yes, but at least we've always had a clear path forward and we've always intended to deliver a product.  Tom... not so much.

Transparency... heh.  What a joke.  Stop trying to rewrite history to bolster your pathetic little argument.

I actually had to read this through twice. You've literally described your contribution to the bitcoin world over the last 9 months. The only differences being:
1) You had more investment, you could weather the storm
2) You had the intention of actually making an ASIC

Now for a second forget about the bullshit and the "I think you're doing everything wrong", and honestly just read back what you've posted. You think Tom was a horrific person for seemingly valid reasons [assuming its true, I have no intention of verifying that as its irrelevant]. Can you not understand the hatred you [BFL] and you [personally] have garnered over this time period? Every single sentence just seems to describe what's happened in the last year.

Except, you now, the part about... umm, all of it, you mean?

The point of my post: 

1. Tom was unable to handle creating an ASIC.
2. BFL had the intention of making an ASIC, Tom apparently did not, although this is speculative, maybe he did, but he did a piss poor job of it.

Contrast to BFL who A) Is and was able to handle creating an ASIC and B) had the intention of making an ASIC.  So your post is complete nonsense.  Is does not describe BFL in any way, shape or form.  Try again.  You are at 100% fail so far in this thread, can you maybe make a single post where you don't fall flat on your face?

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

[PuertoLibre]

Wrong, it's a matter of degree Inaba, someone may come right up to the peak and not make it over, whereas someone else will be just barely more prepared, and slightly less incompetent, and still make it.

Don't try to rewrite history. Tom was and is a drunk piece of shit.  He's one step away from a scummy used car salesman, nothing more.  He lied from day one about his ASIC bullshit and strung people along with no clear ability or path to delivering.  BFL has made mistakes, yes, but at least we've always had a clear path forward and we've always intended to deliver a product.  Tom... not so much.

Has anyone compiled a list of your invective?  I think that may be fun to read  Possibly good for newbs to know before they get involved..

I would love if someone did... then there'd be a central place that I can point to and say "You're full of shit, this is what I said, not your mindless bullshit you keep peddling."  Instead, right now, people post all sorts of mindless bullshit they make up, I ask them to prove it with quotes/links and they fail and go on with their crap.  I mean, just look at any BFL thread and anything that comes out of PuertoLibre, Frizz, et al is 90% manufactured bullshit with nothing substantive to back up their ramblings, yet they keep peddling it as if it were truth.  If you try to get them to back up their claims, they become strangely silent.

Yes, please make it so!

Except, it's almost always true.

But if you say it ain't some dupes eventually will believe the company that didn't ship anything but excuses until very recently.

[PuertoLibre]

I'm not opposed to the idea that you could have valid reasons for everything that has happened.  Like a majority of the people on the forum I just haven't seen it.  It seems like there are consistently unfulfilled promises, and when people point that out they get ignored, or have ad hominem thrown at them.  How can this be justified?  Because it's cool?  You're in a company man, grow up.  The people that you are talking to may be completely pissed off and unreasonable, but look at it from their point of view, they feel totally screwed with.  If you tried to explain things calmly instead of making people feel ridiculous all the time, I think you would be much better off.

Been there, tried that.  Doesn't work.  When you have inheriently irrational people like PL, Frizz, etc... who's sole purpose is to denigrate BFL, regardless of facts, truth and honesty, it doesn't matter what you say.  They will fabricate whatever information that need to make their statements.  Like I said, any time you try to get them to back up their ridiculous statements, they deflect or ignore.  Go ahead and try it... go pick out one of their ridiculous statements then get them to provide some proof or convincing evidence for their position... you'll get nothing in return.  

I would appreciate this as well. Will be helpful in the coming weeks.

Yes Xian, we've all heard, ad naseum, about how you're going to mount the awesome legal offensive against BFL.  Nobody cares, haven't you figured that out yet?  Just get on with it, all this posturing you are doing is just making you look like more of a tool than anything else.  Like someone already said, if you really had legal council, you wouldn't be posting on the forum.  You're a joke, man, move on.

Total BS.

People call you out on BS after you ask them to prove otherwise, you always ignore them when they meet your BS with the truth.

Even when threads are inconvenient on BFL forums you tar the guy who brings up the past to bite thy ass again and again.

How do you think so many people now know you for your reputations? Magic? People read, people learn, people eventually understand.

------------------------
Hopefully you don't honestly think people "are mistaken" when they think extremely negative thoughts about you or the company you represent??

 

[PuertoLibre]

I appreciate the apology, but it's pretty hard to take seriously when, in the same post (and many others), you continue to talk up how you're going to bring about an epic lawsuit against BFL.  

I don't believe I am saying anything offensive, detrimental, uncivil, false, slanderous or libelous.

You're absolutely right, you're not.  You're just being threatening (in the legal sense).  Much like physical threats, I do not respond well to either.  Like I said, if you're going to do it, skin that hogleg and go to work; quit talking about it.  You have made your intent to initiate legal proceedings very clear, so there's nothing more to say other than "see you in court."

 The letter has not yet been sent.

 It's not too late to settle this civilly via email.

 With all due respect, I'm trying to be as reasonable and civil as possible. I am sorry you feel threatened.

 You should have no reason to feel threatened if you have done nothing wrong.

I don't feel threatened by you in any way, I said you were being threatening, that's why I'm telling you to get on with it and quit yakkin' about it.  Just because a chihuahua arches it back, grows and yips in a threatening manner at a person doesn't mean the person is threatened by the chihuahua.  Sometimes it's even cute.

 

Ok. I tried.

It was worth the try. <Shrug>?

[Inaba]

You are quite certain of that, are you?  This shows that what you know is, in a word, nothing:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1157524#msg1157524
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1157583#msg1157583

This is why I say you don't know what you're talking about.  You say you are quite certain of something that is patently false, can be demonstrated to be false, yet you still maintain it as true and that you're "certain of it."  Really, the very definition of a troll.

Despite my earlier statement of not replying, I will since it appears I was incorrect.  I will not add to that any form of certainty as it's not verifiable by you or myself that there never actually was a prototype, although I'll concede that it is unlikely there ever was.

But it was verified... again, you make statements you have no idea about and pass them off as fact.  I don't recall the guys name off the top of my head, but I assure you I can locate it if need be, who flew out there to talk to Tom and to buy him out.  He reported back that Tom was drunk and avoided him, and once cornered Tom admitted there was absolutely nothing what so ever done towards actually creating an ASIC.  No prototype, NO VACCINE and NO Lt. YARR!

I'd dig up the thread(s), but we've already demonstrated you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about yet you keep talking as if you do.  Your credibility = 0 at this point.

[Xian01]

It was worth the try. <Shrug>?

 I honestly can say I've never seen someone so wiling to bring legal heat upon themselves This is not normal. I hope we don't disappoint him.

 All I can continue to do is shake my head in disbelief at this entire situation, and the continued taunting, hubris, and braggadocio only serves to steel my resolve in this matter further.

[dogie]

It was worth the try. <Shrug>?

 I honestly can say I've never seen someone so wiling to bring legal heat upon themselves This is not normal. I hope we don't disappoint him.

 All I can continue to do is shake my head in disbelief at this entire situation, and the continued taunting, disbelief, and braggadocio only serves to steel my resolve in this matter further.

Yeah tbh Xian, stop talking and pull the trigger. He clearly doesn't want to talk, let the lawyers sort it out now.

[wrenchmonkey]

It was worth the try. <Shrug>?

 I honestly can say I've never seen someone so wiling to bring legal heat upon themselves This is not normal. I hope we don't disappoint him.

 All I can continue to do is shake my head in disbelief at this entire situation, and the continued taunting, disbelief, and braggadocio only serves to steel my resolve in this matter further.

Yeah tbh Xian, stop talking and pull the trigger. He clearly doesn't want to talk, let the lawyers sort it out now.

Wow, I actually agree with dogie on something, everybody is so sick of your talk, Xian. Time to STFU, and get on with it. Nobody cares. Just STFU, and go back to rewriting history, by altering your post history with that fancy blue "Edit" button. 

[dropt]

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

I quite enjoy when this fact gets brought up after BFL's monkey runs off on diatribes about how they created an ASIC. 

[k9quaint]

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

I quite enjoy when this fact gets brought up after BFL's monkey runs off on diatribes about how they created an ASIC. 

^This. BFL's input to the chip design was "make it hash this much" <holds hands about 12 inches apart>.

It is cute to see Inaba flailing around in the thread. Why isn't he adding his "cross-domain" expertise to getting Singles and Mini-rigs working?

I do believe that Xian is under an obligation to "exhaust" attempts to resolve BFL's breach of contract without resorting to the courts.

[wrenchmonkey]

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

I quite enjoy when this fact gets brought up after BFL's monkey runs off on diatribes about how they created an ASIC. 

I quite enjoy when the trolls grasp at smaller and smaller straws, when their arguments get completely destroyed by facts and logic.

You people just keep piling on more and more totally irrelevant nonsense. Anybody who has ever run a company that does any serious manufacturing knows that sub-contracting is part of the biz. BFL started out doing FPGA miners. They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

In fact, the MAJORITY of products out there are never designed, soup-to-nuts, in-house. This is a well-accepted fact in virtually EVERY industry in the world, and it's why we have a world economy in the first place. Clothing designers don't weave their own textiles. Apple doesn't build computers or iPads.  General construction-contractors don't install wiring and plumbing. Network engineers don't build their own switches, etc, etc, etc. Keep graspin', maybe you'll happen upon something substantial to hold onto... Then again, probably not. 

[dropt]

[shill bullshit]

They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

[more shill bullshit]

Oh, so then they were lying when they posted "Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design [...]" and "The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design."?

Sounds to me like they are ASIC designers.  Or maybe they're a bunch of fucking liars?




Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

[k9quaint]

[shill bullshit]

They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

[more shill bullshit]

Oh, so then they were lying when they posted "Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design [...]" and "The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design."?

Sounds to me like they are ASIC designers.  Or maybe they're a bunch of fucking liars?

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

NO FAIRS! WE CALLED NO FACTSIES!!! 

[wrenchmonkey]

[shill bullshit]

They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

[more shill bullshit]

Oh, so then they were lying when they posted "Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design [...]" and "The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design."?

Sounds to me like they are ASIC designers.  Or maybe they're a bunch of fucking liars?




Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

[dropt]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

No, serious question. Are you saying that industry leaders are precluded from subcontracting? Apple will be totally bummed to hear this...

[k9quaint]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

Also, dropt, not that it's really relevant to your inane argument, but what's the origin of the cited article? Was the article written by BFL? It appears to be 3rd party statements you're nitpicking, which even further weakens your point. Regardless of whether you ACTUALLY believe that industry leaders aren't allowed to do any subcontracting.

[k9quaint]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

You can't be an industry leader if you don't do any work in that industry. BFL does no actual work in ASICs if they subcontract out all of the design. Therefore they cannot be industry leaders in ASIC design.

So simple a 5 year old could understand it. Too bad you are not allowed within 200 feet of schools or you could get one to explain it to you

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

You can't be an industry leader if you don't do any work in that industry. BFL does no actual work in ASICs if they subcontract out all of the design. Therefore they cannot be industry leaders in ASIC design.

So simple a 5 year old could understand it. Too bad you are not allowed within 200 feet of schools or you could get one to explain it to you

It didn't say they were industry leaders in ASIC design. It said semiconductor design, and it appears to be a statement by a 3rd party. They're clearly industry leaders in ASIC mining hardware design, or at least they were at the time of the article's publication.

Once again, are market leaders allowed to subcontract or not?

[k9quaint]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

You can't be an industry leader if you don't do any work in that industry. BFL does no actual work in ASICs if they subcontract out all of the design. Therefore they cannot be industry leaders in ASIC design.

So simple a 5 year old could understand it. Too bad you are not allowed within 200 feet of schools or you could get one to explain it to you

It didn't say they were industry leaders in ASIC design. It said semiconductor design, and it appears to be a statement by a 3rd party. They're clearly industry leaders in ASIC mining hardware design, or at least they were at the time of the article's publication.

Once again, are market leaders allowed to subcontract or not?

You must do work in an industry to "lead" it. BFL does no work in ASIC or semiconductor design. The people who actually designed the ASIC could be called leaders in ASIC mining hardware (if they actually lead the industry instead of Avalon & ASICMiner), but none of those people work for BFL.

You should deflect somewhere else. This one is a dead end for you.

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

You can't be an industry leader if you don't do any work in that industry. BFL does no actual work in ASICs if they subcontract out all of the design. Therefore they cannot be industry leaders in ASIC design.

So simple a 5 year old could understand it. Too bad you are not allowed within 200 feet of schools or you could get one to explain it to you

It didn't say they were industry leaders in ASIC design. It said semiconductor design, and it appears to be a statement by a 3rd party. They're clearly industry leaders in ASIC mining hardware design, or at least they were at the time of the article's publication.

Once again, are market leaders allowed to subcontract or not?

You must do work in an industry to "lead" it. BFL does no work in ASIC or semiconductor design. The people who actually designed the ASIC could be called leaders in ASIC mining hardware (if they actually lead the industry instead of Avalon & ASICMiner), but none of those people work for BFL.

You should deflect somewhere else. This one is a dead end for you.

I'm not deflecting. Let me get this straight. You're saying that people who subcontract don't count as part of an industry?

[k9quaint]

I'm not deflecting. Let me get this straight. You're saying that people who subcontract don't count as part of an industry?

This statement is true.
If I subcontract out to Volkswagen for 100% of the work designing and manufacturing my automobile, then I am not a leader in the auto industry. I merely bought a car that was the color I wanted.

This is the 5th time this question has been answered for you. Get someone with a double digit IQ to explain it to you.
Or tell BFL to hire a better shill.

[wrenchmonkey]

I'm not deflecting. Let me get this straight. You're saying that people who subcontract don't count as part of an industry?

This statement is true.
If I subcontract out to Volkswagen for 100% of the work designing and manufacturing my automobile, then I am not a leader in the auto industry. I merely bought a car that was the color I wanted.

This is the 5th time this question has been answered for you. Get someone with a double digit IQ to explain it to you.
Or tell BFL to hire a better shill.

No, but if you subcontract with Boeing and Volkswagen to design a turbine-engine-powered car that can break the current world speed record, and you call your car company "K9 Motors International" and you pre-sell a million units, and it drives the entire automotive industry toward modeling your idea, and utilizing turbine engines in their vehicles, even before you deliver your first unit, "K9 Motors International" can claim to be a leader in the turbine-powered automobile industry.

Neeeeext!

[wrenchmonkey]

Really not the same. Apple designs a product, its specifications and lays out everything. Someone else manufactures it.

Whose processors are they usin' these days?

[dropt]

EDIT: But what's the origin of the cited article? Was the article written by BFL? It appears to be 3rd party statements you're nitpicking, which even further weakens your point.

They're the words of BFL.  See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.0

I chose not to pick on the fact that they're a "market" leader, because it's too vague.  One could argue that the market they're referring to is the bitcoin mining market, in which case I'd concede that it was a quasi-truth at the time.  On the other hand, if the argument made is that they're a leader in SHA-256 hardware design, I'm sure if one spent the time it could easily be dismissed as a fallacy.  To better put it into perspective, compare ASICMiner with BFL.  It's my understanding that friedcat et al. designed their own chip, had it manufactured and have manufactured enough hardware to put double digit terrahash numbers onto the network.  I don't think it's necessary to pick apart Inaba's statements claiming that BFL has production facilities that dwarf any competitor when they have shipped near nothing in comparison to AM.

[k9quaint]

I'm not deflecting. Let me get this straight. You're saying that people who subcontract don't count as part of an industry?

This statement is true.
If I subcontract out to Volkswagen for 100% of the work designing and manufacturing my automobile, then I am not a leader in the auto industry. I merely bought a car that was the color I wanted.

This is the 5th time this question has been answered for you. Get someone with a double digit IQ to explain it to you.
Or tell BFL to hire a better shill.

No, but if you subcontract with Boeing and Volkswagen to design a turbine-engine-powered car that can break the current world speed record, and you call your car company "K9 Motors International" and you pre-sell a million units, and it drives the entire automotive industry toward modeling your idea, and utilizing turbine engines in their vehicles, even before you deliver your first unit, "K9 Motors International" can claim to be a leader in the turbine-powered automobile industry.

Neeeeext!

Nice analogy fail. You twisted the facts just enough to make it sound almost plausible.
You earned your shill "donation" today (you are organized as a 503c right?).

I would have to claim to be an industry leader in turbine design to have lied like BFL did.

Let me remind you what they said:

Oh, so then they were lying when they posted "Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design [...]" and "The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design."?

Sounds to me like they are ASIC designers.  Or maybe they're a bunch of fucking liars?

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

I love how the BFL folks are afraid to attach their last names to their statements. Nick W. and Nasser G. So shady. 

[a1phanumrc]

Really not the same. Apple designs a product, its specifications and lays out everything. Someone else manufactures it.

Whose processors are they usin' these days?

For what? The iPhone? That's an A6 designed by Apple but manufactured by Samsung.

Or do you mean for computers? Those are Intel.

[dropt]

Really not the same. Apple designs a product, its specifications and lays out everything. Someone else manufactures it.

Whose processors are they usin' these days?

This is a poor example you've offered.  Apple is definitely a leader in semiconductor purchases, and it could be successfully argued that they're a semiconductor design outfit as they purchased PA Fab in 2008 (See: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-9926461-37.html).  So you could say that Apple could claim to be a market leader in ASIC design, but they don't, because they aren't. 

[k9quaint]

Really not the same. Apple designs a product, its specifications and lays out everything. Someone else manufactures it.

Whose processors are they usin' these days?

Wrenchmonkey's mental gymnastics would score better if he didn't land on his face with every post.  

[wrenchmonkey]

First off, once again, who is this mysterious "they"? You're quoting a Yahoo news article, not a person, as far as I can tell. Not that it's relevant to the point.

It doesn't matter WHAT claim you hypothetically made in my analogy, you say the analogy doesn't hold up, simply because you didn't claim to have designed the engine? OK. fine.

But why does the analogy hold up until the point of the engine? In that analogy, you didn't design ANY of it, yet you claimed to be an automotive design leader. You're willing to claim credit for being a leader in automotive design, just not in Turbine Engine design, when you haven't done ANYTHING in either field? 

Sounds to me like you're applying some arbitrary limitations on what you're willing to say somebody's allowed to claim credit on, based on your pre-defined position in the argument, rather than on simple logic. If your argument were consistent, you'd have to deny credit for being an industry leader in automotive design, if having received outside help AT ALL (let alone for EVERYTHING, as in this example).

The reality is that neither you nor I actually know the level of BFL's direct involvement in the design. Maybe they designed most of it and had outside help in finalizing it. Maybe they designed none of it at all. We don't know, and frankly, it's a moot point, because EVERY INDUSTRY subcontracts complex specialized jobs out. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. This includes the market leaders.

This includes Apple, who uses Intel's processors, and Nvidia's graphics cards, and Sharps' LCD screens, Foxconn's motherboards and assembly services...

Even IF you were directly quoting a BFL rep making a claim to be an industry leader in ASIC design, that would STILL be a factual statement, as they WERE the leaders who drove the rest of the industry to move toward ASIC design, and implementation. They single-handedly shifted the entire mining equipment industry from GPU/FPGA to ASIC, after already having been industry leaders in the FPGA mining aspect as well.

You're falling WELL short of the mark in falsifying these (unattributed, mind you) claims/statements, even on the grounds of playing petty 'semantics'.

Whether you like BFL or not, there's no denying that they are and were an industry leader in the ASIC mining arena.

But keep fuckin' that chicken, if that's what gets you off...  

[k9quaint]

But keep fuckin' that chicken, if that's what gets you off...  

Analogy fail again. BFL is not a chicken. Chickens are delicious.

[wrenchmonkey]

More deflection [surprising no one].

[k9quaint]

Facts not addressed by Wrenchmonkey because they clearly show BFL to be lying about their capabilities.

Why hasn't Inaba come to save you by sprinkling LiarDouche Powder (TM) on the thread to cover your escape?

BFL the self-proclaimed leaders in semiconductor design who have never designed a semiconductor ought to stick up for their shills better than this.
Perhaps you shills should unionize and ask for better treatment.

[wrenchmonkey]

EDIT: But what's the origin of the cited article? Was the article written by BFL? It appears to be 3rd party statements you're nitpicking, which even further weakens your point.

They're the words of BFL.  See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.0

I chose not to pick on the fact that they're a "market" leader, because it's too vague.  One could argue that the market they're referring to is the bitcoin mining market, in which case I'd concede that it was a quasi-truth at the time.  On the other hand, if the argument made is that they're a leader in SHA-256 hardware design, I'm sure if one spent the time it could easily be dismissed as a fallacy.  To better put it into perspective, compare ASICMiner with BFL.  It's my understanding that friedcat et al. designed their own chip, had it manufactured and have manufactured enough hardware to put double digit terrahash numbers onto the network.  I don't think it's necessary to pick apart Inaba's statements claiming that BFL has production facilities that dwarf any competitor when they have shipped near nothing in comparison to AM.

*Sigh*... That's like digging up an old advertisement for the DVD format, and reading that it "offers the highest resolution and clearest picture quality available in home entertainment".

Lies, bullshit! Everybody knows that Bluray and HDDVD offer a better picture quality than DVD!

Or watching a DVRed broadcast of a motorcycle race that you already know the outcome of "Valentino Rossi is in the lead!"

"God, what a fucking liar! Rossi fell behind, and Nicky Hayden won! This just goes to show you that the mainstream media can't be trusted!"

  Really, man, you're just too much!

You are comparing claims made a year ago, to the current market today. You don't compare past statements about the state of the industry, to the state of the CURRENT industry. Compare the claims to the state of the industry at the time the claim was made, and you'll see that it's pretty irrefutable. They were the clear leader. ASICMiner didn't sell any equipment until VERY recently.

[wrenchmonkey]

More deflection [surprising no one].

Keep fuckin' that chicken...

[k9quaint]

EDIT: But what's the origin of the cited article? Was the article written by BFL? It appears to be 3rd party statements you're nitpicking, which even further weakens your point.

They're the words of BFL.  See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.0

I chose not to pick on the fact that they're a "market" leader, because it's too vague.  One could argue that the market they're referring to is the bitcoin mining market, in which case I'd concede that it was a quasi-truth at the time.  On the other hand, if the argument made is that they're a leader in SHA-256 hardware design, I'm sure if one spent the time it could easily be dismissed as a fallacy.  To better put it into perspective, compare ASICMiner with BFL.  It's my understanding that friedcat et al. designed their own chip, had it manufactured and have manufactured enough hardware to put double digit terrahash numbers onto the network.  I don't think it's necessary to pick apart Inaba's statements claiming that BFL has production facilities that dwarf any competitor when they have shipped near nothing in comparison to AM.

*Sigh*... That's like digging up an old advertisement for the DVD format, and reading that it "offers the highest resolution and clearest picture quality available in home entertainment".

Lies, bullshit! Everybody knows that Bluray and HDDVD offer a better picture quality than DVD!

Or watching a DVRed broadcast of a motorcycle race that you already know the outcome of "Valentino Rossi is in the lead!"

"God, what a fucking liar! Rossi fell behind, and Nicky Hayden won! This just goes to show you that the mainstream media can't be trusted!"

  Really, man, you're just too much!

You are comparing claims made a year ago, to the current market today. You don't compare past statements about the state of the industry, to the state of the CURRENT industry. Compare the claims to the state of the industry at the time the claim was made, and you'll see that it's pretty irrefutable. They were the clear leader. ASICMiner didn't sell any equipment until VERY recently.

Actually, its like digging up old statements of BFL and showing how (by comparing them with later admissions from BFL) that the earlier statements could not possibly have been true.
No DVDs or Blue Ray discs, or Apple phones, or flying cars made by Boeing were involved.

So the original doesn't get lost in Wrenchmonkey spunk:

Oh, so then they were lying when they posted "Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design [...]" and "The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design."?

Sounds to me like they are ASIC designers.  Or maybe they're a bunch of fucking liars?

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

[wrenchmonkey]

Actually, its like digging up old statements of BFL and showing how (by comparing them with later admissions from BFL) that the earlier statements could not possibly have been true.

So, enlighten us then. Who WAS leading the ASIC race at the time of that news article?

[dropt]

First off, once again, who is this mysterious "they"? You're quoting a Yahoo news article, not a person, as far as I can tell. Not that it's relevant to the point.

Click this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg966882#msg966882  Read the post. The "They" you're referring to is the "We" in the post I'm linking you to for the second time.

Please refresh my memory as to what point it is you're referring to?  

Your claim:

You people just keep piling on more and more totally irrelevant nonsense. Anybody who has ever run a company that does any serious manufacturing knows that sub-contracting is part of the biz. BFL started out doing FPGA miners. They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

Which, if we want to get into "facts", your assessment does not align with BFL's public statement.

As for the rest of your post.  Who are you replying to? k9? a1pha? me?

Focus man!

[dropt]

Actually, its like digging up old statements of BFL and showing how (by comparing them with later admissions from BFL) that the earlier statements could not possibly have been true.

So, enlighten us then. Who WAS leading the ASIC race at the time of that news article?

That depends.  How would you like quantify what constitutes "leading" the ASIC race?

[k9quaint]

Actually, its like digging up old statements of BFL and showing how (by comparing them with later admissions from BFL) that the earlier statements could not possibly have been true.

So, enlighten us then. Who WAS leading the ASIC race at the time of that news article?

You got it wrong again. Let me quote you the original statements.

BFL started out doing FPGA miners. They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

That was your own statement that BFL does not have ASIC engineers.

Here is BFL's statement that they do:
http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html
Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design
The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design.

Not ASIC race. Microprocessor design. How do you lead the markets in microprocessor design and offer consulting services in semiconductor design without having any ASIC engineers? Which one of you is lying?

[Flying Hellfish]

Dude I'm serious, give me a something to work with, I'd love to add that to my list of reasons BFL is shady, but seriously, saying another user searched for it isn't good enough. I don't own a jalapeno and have no idea to look up. Can you also explain why it needs fcc licensing? I'm not trying to counter-troll, I honestly want to know.

This thread was interesting.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=189464.0

[wrenchmonkey]

First off, once again, who is this mysterious "they"? You're quoting a Yahoo news article, not a person, as far as I can tell. Not that it's relevant to the point.

Click this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg966882#msg966882  Read the post. The "They" you're referring to is the "We" in the post I'm linking you to for the second time.

Please refresh my memory as to what point it is you're referring to?  

Your claim:

You people just keep piling on more and more totally irrelevant nonsense. Anybody who has ever run a company that does any serious manufacturing knows that sub-contracting is part of the biz. BFL started out doing FPGA miners. They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

Which, if we want to get into "facts", your assessment does not align with BFL's public statement.

As for the rest of your post.  Who are you replying to? k9? a1pha? me?

Focus man!

Once again, you're continuing to try to play the semantics game. ASIC design is not the same thing as FPGA design. There are different specialized skills involved with developing various components. If you as a company, don't have any individuals on your staff with this specialized skill, that doesn't mean that you're forever barred from getting into the ASIC game.

You have two options. The first one would be to hire a specialized ASIC engineer onto your staff. Now, this doesn't seem like a particularly great option, if you only need to design on ASIC. Most specialized folks are gonna be wary about being hired on to do ONE chip design. Most likely, they'll want to free-lance it, because they know that once you're done with them, they're gonna have to search for another job. So specialized guys like this don't like to go to work for a couple of months at a time for every company they design a chip for. It's not prudent for ANYBODY.

So, in order to make everybody's lives simpler, and make it so that people with specialized skills have to pick up and move every few weeks, what usually happens is that a company will crop up that says "Hey, specialized engineers, we will hire you, give you long-term employment, and benefits, or whatever. You won't have to move around. You won't have to shop for work. We'll get the clients, bring them in, you do the design, and then we'll move onto the next project.

So, say hypothetically, a company like BFL doesn't have the specialized skills to design this very specific type of chip that they need. It's not in their interest to hire a full-time chip designer, just to satisfy some nit-picky little child on an internet forum. It's in their interest to get a chip designed, and integrate it into their overall hardware design. It just so happens that there are companies who already employ specialized engineers to do this exact type of work.

What should they do? How about go hire the company that already employs those specialized engineers?

BFL still gets to be the first company to design a Bitcoin mining-specific ASIC, by farming out the work to a 3rd party, and everybody wins. Being that BFL is the first company to come up with an ASIC chip for bitcoin mining, this qualifies them as an industry leader, puts them in the lead in the race for hashing power, and establishes them as the benchmark for ASIC mining going forward.

It does not guarantee that they'll continue to be the leader. It doesn't gurantee that everybody will love them. It doesn't make them the best ASIC design company. But it DOES make them a leader in ASIC design, since they're the first company on the planet to own a Bitcoin mining ASIC. THE FIRST OF THEIR KIND. That sets them apart as leaders, son. Like it or don't.

The direct full-time employees of the company don't have to have done all (or, for that matter ANY) of the work in order for this company to still be considered the leader. It's their product. They're the first to have it. They're the leader. Period. The ins and outs of who did the physical labor is completely immaterial to the discussion, and if you're latching onto that to try and play semantics, you really are running out of ideas.

Subcontracting out all or some engineering aspects of a particular product is done ALLLLLL THEEEEE FUCKIN' TIME. And it's done by 'industry leaders' all the fuckin' time. If you aren't able to wrap your head around this concept, you've got more pressing issues than your obsessive all-consuming hatred for BFL. You should probably try getting some sun.

[wrenchmonkey]

Actually, its like digging up old statements of BFL and showing how (by comparing them with later admissions from BFL) that the earlier statements could not possibly have been true.

So, enlighten us then. Who WAS leading the ASIC race at the time of that news article?

You got it wrong again. Let me quote you the original statements.

BFL started out doing FPGA miners. They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

That was your own statement that BFL does not have ASIC engineers.

Here is BFL's statement that they do:
http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html
Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design
The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design.

Not ASIC race. Microprocessor design. How do you lead the markets in microprocessor design and offer consulting services in semiconductor design without having any ASIC engineers? Which one of you is lying?

As I said before, it doesn't matter whether the company directly hires an employee to do the work, or contracts through a 3rd party to complete the work on their behalf. If a building contractor doesn't drive one single nail, and instead subcontracts all of the jobs (by the way, this is how this ACTUALLY works) he's still considered the "builder".

It would take a special kind of moron to challenge a building contractor when he says something like "We're a leader in building construction," and scream "no that's bullshit, he didn't build those buildings they hired somebody else to do it!"

Please tell me you're not REALLY this stupid.

[wrenchmonkey]

And this question was so precious that I thought it deserved its own special post
Q:

How do you lead the markets in microprocessor design and offer consulting services in semiconductor design without having any ASIC engineers?

A: By subcontracting out the design.

[wrenchmonkey]

Furthermore.
Complete the following sentence:

If all ASICs are semiconductors, but not all semiconductors are ASICs _____

A. Only ASIC engineers can design semiconductors
B. All semiconductor engineers design ASICS
C. Some semiconductor engineers design ASICS
D. I hate BFL, so much that logic is no longer a factor to me.

[PuertoLibre]

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

I quite enjoy when this fact gets brought up after BFL's monkey runs off on diatribes about how they created an ASIC. 

I quite enjoy when the trolls grasp at smaller and smaller straws, when their arguments get completely destroyed by facts and logic.

That like me paying an olympic runner to run in my race. Then state on the record that I am the fastest in the world!

Small details....you know....small details....

[wrenchmonkey]

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

I quite enjoy when this fact gets brought up after BFL's monkey runs off on diatribes about how they created an ASIC.  

I quite enjoy when the trolls grasp at smaller and smaller straws, when their arguments get completely destroyed by facts and logic.

That like me paying an olympic runner to run in my race. Then state on the record that I am the fastest in the world!

Small details....you know....small details....

More like Honda paying Nicky Hayden to race their motorcycles, and then declaring themselves to be a leader in motorcycle racing.

[PuertoLibre]

[shill bullshit]

They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

[more shill bullshit]

Oh, so then they were lying when they posted "Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design [...]" and "The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design."?

Sounds to me like they are ASIC designers.  Or maybe they're a bunch of fucking liars?




Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

To be a market leader, you have to have in house engineers who know what they are doing.

Like Avalon. (See that anooyying fact?)
In this way, the products and people can come together under one roof or one unified management and the products issues are resolved quickly and on time.

Not by paying Bob in France who only works on Monday and Tuesdays, but hes occupied elsewhere and therefore must attend to his priority projects. Or working as a possible bank teller (no, this parody is very much not a joke).

I know, facts bother the mind of a shill. I should know, I am a Master BFL Shill myself.

When confronted with such issues, deflect. Always deflect. Simply comment on the color of the ground today. That will surely get your mind off that reality. Or simply get you off. One or the other.

[PuertoLibre]

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

I quite enjoy when this fact gets brought up after BFL's monkey runs off on diatribes about how they created an ASIC.  

I quite enjoy when the trolls grasp at smaller and smaller straws, when their arguments get completely destroyed by facts and logic.

That like me paying an olympic runner to run in my race. Then state on the record that I am the fastest in the world!

Small details....you know....small details....

More like Honda paying Nicky Hayden to race their motorcycles, and then declaring themselves to be a leader in motorcycle racing.

Thats what a sponsor does. They don't hide the company or people that make things happen. In fact, often they tout it.

But I assume this small argument went right over your capacity as a human being.

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back [of your head], it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

[PuertoLibre]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

No, serious question. Are you saying that industry leaders are precluded from subcontracting? Apple will be totally bummed to hear this...

BFL is an industry leader?

What does that mean for Avalon or ASICMiner?

Industry PimP?

[wrenchmonkey]

To be a market leader, you have to have in house engineers who know what they are doing.

Says who? Are you adding subjective criterion as to what defines a market leader, or are you laying out a roadmap? To be a market leader (at least temporariliy) you only have to be the first to bring a certain type of product to that market. Nothing more.

It seems that you want to drag your personal opinion of best practices on how to sustain leadership, and how to have the most 'synergistic' company, and blah, blah, blah, blah. Typical of somebody who reckons he's got all the answers about how to run a business, but has no real-world experience in doing so.

Like Avalon. (See that anooyying fact?)
In this way, the products and people can come together under one roof or one unified management and they products issues are resolved quickly and on time.

Avalon started out as a follower, back when BFL was the leader, and they later were able to move into a position of leadership. Your hindsight goggles are working marvelously. Avalon is a leader NOW, BFL was the leader THEN. Do you not see how you're having an entirely different conversation than the one at hand? We're talking about what BFL was at the time of the press release, not what they or Avalon have become since that time.

Not by paying Bob in France who only works on Monday and Tuesdays, but hes occupied elsewhere and therefore must attend to his priority projects. Or working as a possible bank teller (no, this parody is very much not a joke).

And yet they managed to assert themselves as a leader, and totally shift the direction of the entire bitcoin mining hardware industry, by doing it the way that you apparently reckon that you 'can't do that'. 

I know, facts bother the mind of a shill. I should know, I am a Master BFL Shill myself.

WHAT FACTS? All you've presented is more opinion (with the benefit of selective hindsight) on how they SHOULD have done things. Not on how they actually managed to do it.

We're not discussing the various ways they COULD HAVE done things differently, and perhaps REMAINED the leader, we're discussing how they started out AS the leader.

Take your roadmap for success, and go do it yourself, if you think you've got all the answers.

[wrenchmonkey]

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

I quite enjoy when this fact gets brought up after BFL's monkey runs off on diatribes about how they created an ASIC.  

I quite enjoy when the trolls grasp at smaller and smaller straws, when their arguments get completely destroyed by facts and logic.

That like me paying an olympic runner to run in my race. Then state on the record that I am the fastest in the world!

Small details....you know....small details....

More like Honda paying Nicky Hayden to race their motorcycles, and then declaring themselves to be a leader in motorcycle racing.

Thats what a sponsor does. They don't hide the company or people that make things happen. In fact, often they tout it.

But I assume this small argument went right over your capacity as a human being.

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back [of your head], it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes, and motorsports are a public spectacle, whereas intellectual property tends to be a bit more guarded. 

[k9quaint]

And this question was so precious that I thought it deserved its own special post
Q:

How do you lead the markets in microprocessor design and offer consulting services in semiconductor design without having any ASIC engineers?

A: By subcontracting out the design.

You do not lead the markets in microprocessor design if you pay someone else to do the design for you. The people you paid for the design might lead the markets, but you are just a customer passing off someone else's expertise as your own.

[PuertoLibre]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

Also, dropt, not that it's really relevant to your inane argument, but what's the origin of the cited article? Was the article written by BFL? It appears to be 3rd party statements you're nitpicking, which even further weakens your point. Regardless of whether you ACTUALLY believe that industry leaders aren't allowed to do any subcontracting.

Lets put it this way, Josh has often made the point himself. (In his numerous excuses and delays)

Because they subcontracted they had less control over the schedules and often had to wait in line to get their own project done.

Therefore, the subcontracting is why June and July Jalepeno's (Bitforce 5) have only recently shipped. Almost a year later from the first pre-orders. (Rather than 2 months after the first pre-order)

Everyone else, had close ties to their manufacturing process and/or engineers. So weekends probably didn't matter.

Fair enough? (In other words are you willing (yet) to accept this reality?)

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

No, serious question. Are you saying that industry leaders are precluded from subcontracting? Apple will be totally bummed to hear this...

BFL is an industry leader?

WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS. Are you retarded? We're talking about the state of things as they were at the time of the news article in question.

There's currently no clear-cut leader, although I think we all agree that BFL is falling behind. Once again, irrelevant to the discussion.

Is your ability to think in terms of the context of time completely broken? Who was the ASIC industry leader at the time of the article in question?

[PuertoLibre]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

No, serious question. Are you saying that industry leaders are precluded from subcontracting? Apple will be totally bummed to hear this...

BFL is an industry leader?

What does that mean for Avalon or ASICMiner?

WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS. Are you retarded? We're talking about the state of things as they were at the time of the news article in question.

There's currently no clear-cut leader, although I think we all agree that BFL is falling behind. Once again, irrelevant to the discussion.

Is your ability to think in terms of the context of time completely broken? Who was the ASIC industry leader at the time of the article in question?

Please don't lose your marbles. Stay Calm. Please, STAY CALM! 

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

Also, dropt, not that it's really relevant to your inane argument, but what's the origin of the cited article? Was the article written by BFL? It appears to be 3rd party statements you're nitpicking, which even further weakens your point. Regardless of whether you ACTUALLY believe that industry leaders aren't allowed to do any subcontracting.

Lets put it this way, Josh has often made the point himself. (In his numerous excuses and delays)

Because they subcontracted they had less control over the schedules and often had to wait in line to get their own project done.

Therefore, the subcontracting is why June and July Jalepeno's (Bitforce 5) have only recently shipped. Almost a year later from the first pre-orders. (Rather than 2 months after the first pre-order)

Everyone else, had close ties to their manufacturing process and/or engineers. So weekends probably didn't matter.

Fair enough? (In other words are you willing (yet) to accept this reality?)

Utter and complete reading comprehension fail on your part. This deserves a quadruple facepalm...

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

No, serious question. Are you saying that industry leaders are precluded from subcontracting? Apple will be totally bummed to hear this...

BFL is an industry leader?

What does that mean for Avalon or ASICMiner?

WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS. Are you retarded? We're talking about the state of things as they were at the time of the news article in question.

There's currently no clear-cut leader, although I think we all agree that BFL is falling behind. Once again, irrelevant to the discussion.

Is your ability to think in terms of the context of time completely broken? Who was the ASIC industry leader at the time of the article in question?

Please don't lose your marbles. Stay Calm. Please, STAY CALM! 

I'm completely calm. I'm just repeating certain things for you, since it clearly takes a whole lot of repetition to get through (and I'm not even sure that will work).

Now then, have you yet grasped the barely-qualifying-as-abstract-concept that we're speaking in terms of the state of affairs at the time of that news article, or do we need to go through this a few dozen more times?

[k9quaint]

Lets put it this way, Josh has often made the point himself. (In his numerous excuses and delays)

Because they subcontracted they had less control over the schedules and often had to wait in line to get their own project done.

Therefore, the subcontracting is why June and July Jalepeno's (Bitforce 5) have only recently shipped. Almost a year later from the first pre-orders. (Rather than 2 months after the first pre-order)

Everyone else, had close ties to their manufacturing process and/or engineers. So weekends probably didn't matter.

Fair enough? (In other words are you willing (yet) to accept this reality?)

Utter and complete reading comprehension fail on your part. This deserves a quadruple facepalm...

Wrenchmonkey, you better call Josh. You are flailing and need help.

Also:
You do not lead the markets in microprocessor design if you pay someone else to do the design for you. The people you paid for the design might lead the markets, but you are just a customer passing off someone else's expertise as your own. BFL was passing off their subcontractor's expertise in chip design as their own.

[wrenchmonkey]

Lets put it this way, Josh has often made the point himself. (In his numerous excuses and delays)

Because they subcontracted they had less control over the schedules and often had to wait in line to get their own project done.

Therefore, the subcontracting is why June and July Jalepeno's (Bitforce 5) have only recently shipped. Almost a year later from the first pre-orders. (Rather than 2 months after the first pre-order)

Everyone else, had close ties to their manufacturing process and/or engineers. So weekends probably didn't matter.

Fair enough? (In other words are you willing (yet) to accept this reality?)

Utter and complete reading comprehension fail on your part. This deserves a quadruple facepalm...

Wrenchmonkey, you better call Josh. You are flailing and need help.

Also:
You do not lead the markets in microprocessor design if you pay someone else to do the design for you. The people you paid for the design might lead the markets, but you are just a customer passing off someone else's expertise as your own. BFL was passing off their subcontractor's expertise in chip design as their own.

Virtually every company in the WORLD is paying somebody else to do their labor. Whether they're directly employed, hired through a temp agency, or subcontracted/freelance.

You really don't understand how business works, do you?

[k9quaint]

Lets put it this way, Josh has often made the point himself. (In his numerous excuses and delays)

Because they subcontracted they had less control over the schedules and often had to wait in line to get their own project done.

Therefore, the subcontracting is why June and July Jalepeno's (Bitforce 5) have only recently shipped. Almost a year later from the first pre-orders. (Rather than 2 months after the first pre-order)

Everyone else, had close ties to their manufacturing process and/or engineers. So weekends probably didn't matter.

Fair enough? (In other words are you willing (yet) to accept this reality?)

Utter and complete reading comprehension fail on your part. This deserves a quadruple facepalm...

Wrenchmonkey, you better call Josh. You are flailing and need help.

Also:
You do not lead the markets in microprocessor design if you pay someone else to do the design for you. The people you paid for the design might lead the markets, but you are just a customer passing off someone else's expertise as your own. BFL was passing off their subcontractor's expertise in chip design as their own.

Virtually every company in the WORLD is paying somebody else to do their labor. Whether they're directly employed, hired through a temp agency, or subcontracted/freelance.

You really don't understand how business works, do you?

Not every company in the world claims to be a "a market leader in microprocessor design". Only companies that do microprocessor design might make that claim (and BFL). According to you, BFL does not have any engineers who do microprocessor design, therefore they are not even a member of the microprocessor design industry. BFL cannot lead an industry that they are not part of.

BFL was passing off their subcontractor's expertise in chip design as their own.

[PuertoLibre]

I'm not deflecting. Let me get this straight. You're saying that people who subcontract don't count as part of an industry?

This statement is true.
If I subcontract out to Volkswagen for 100% of the work designing and manufacturing my automobile, then I am not a leader in the auto industry. I merely bought a car that was the color I wanted.

This is the 5th time this question has been answered for you. Get someone with a double digit IQ to explain it to you.
Or tell BFL to hire a better shill.

No, but if you subcontract with Boeing and Volkswagen to design a turbine-engine-powered car that can break the current world speed record, and you call your car company "K9 Motors International" and you pre-sell a million units, and it drives the entire automotive industry toward modeling your idea, and utilizing turbine engines in their vehicles, even before you deliver your first unit, "K9 Motors International" can claim to be a leader in the turbine-powered automobile industry.

Neeeeext!

Thats called a partnership.

Most companies with such large contracts usually put the logos of partners (sub-contractors if you wish) and advertise it all over the place.

Some companies specialize in specific tasks. Like Boeing specifically deals in the aerospace industry. So does Lockheed Martin. (I haven't kept up with who has bought who by the way)

It's fair to say we have partnered up with a company that has lots of talent in designing microprocessors, specifically ASIC microprocessors.

-------------------

It is untrue to paint your own company as having experience in a field where it clearly did not (notice I used past tense and hindsight).

BFL's delays were caused (mostly likely) because they didn't have the experience they claimed to have. Probably not under the same roof. Therefore, the outcome was kind of obvious. All the essential processes were seemingly outsourced, this resulted in vast delays and problems that may have been cured quickly if not done by proxy.

Has everyone forgotten the fiasco that Josh had (repeatedly) with not even knowing when their chips were coming out of the fab?

It was a multi-month long show that lasted from October till sometimes in March. Then the next fiasco took place. They had no real idea what they were doing with the packager (the next stage after the fab). And of course (predictably, if you knew the setup BFL was using) that they were going to face issues with packaging their naked chips. That alone lasted (up until April or May).

Now, they seem to have finally got the hang of it. (Finally)

----------------------

Alot of this didn't happen at either ASICMiner nor Avalon.

Why is that?

By the way, bASIC used a very similar setup to BFL. Do you see them around today?

[k9quaint]

I wonder if the company that BFL bought their ASIC design from knows that BFL is pretending the design is theirs.
That might be why BFL has never identified their supplier for the design.

[wrenchmonkey]

Thats called a partnership.

It's called whatever the companies involved want to call it. If they want to keep that information proprietary, it's highly common to do so. NDAs exist in every industry, and they exist for a reason.

Most companies with such large contracts usually put the logos of partners (sub-contractors if you wish) and advertise it all over the place.

Many do, many do not. For example, Colt Firearms, the company that makes M4s and M16s for the U.S. Government. They don't manufacture a SINGLE piece of the firearm. It's all subcontracted and assembled. They slap their name and roll mark (logo) on it, and ship it out the door. They don't mark the pieces with AO Precision, and Lothar Walther, and Cero Forge, and Fabrique Nationale or any of the dozens of other possible subcontractor who make those parts. It's simply not done. In fact, those companies are forced to sign non-disclosure agreements saying that they will keep mum about who they're manufacturing their parts for. About as close as those companies are allowed get to disclosing anything about it is to say "We are a military subcontractor."

Keeping subcontractors quiet and protecting sources is BIIIIG business, and there are veritable ARMIES of attorneys who work full-time making sure NDAs don't get violated.

Basically, if it isn't directly useful for the purposes of advertising, and there's not a nice non-competition agreement in place before hand, NOBODY'S name or logo is allowed anywhere NEAR the parts in question, unless the company that actually owns the licensing puts it there. End of story.

Some companies specialize in specific tasks. Like Boeing specifically deals in the aerospace industry. So does Lockheed Martin. (I haven't kept up with who has bought who by the way)

Not sure what your point is here. Boeing and Lockheed Martin also so outsourced engineering deals (both providing and utilizing). They don't advertise when they outsource, and they damn sure don't advertise it when they provide services to outside companies, unless there's some sort of advertising agreement going on.

It's fair to say we have partnered up with a company that has lots of talent in designing microprocessors, specifically ASIC microprocessors.

It's also fair to leave that out. Ultimately, it's up to the license holder to decide whether it's worthwhile to release the details of any partnerships. Sometimes there's a good reason to, sometimes there's not. More often, there's not.

It is untrue to paint your own company as having experience in a field where it clearly did not (notice I used past tense and hindsight).

We don't know what all experience they had and did not have. We know that they apparently outsourced some of the ASIC design. That doesn't mean they're completely inexperienced in semiconductor design. You're speculating on that.

BFL's delays were caused (mostly likely) because they didn't have the experience they claimed to have. Probably not under the same roof. Therefore, the outcome was kind of obvious. All the essential processes were seemingly outsourced, this resulted in vast delays and problems that may have been cured quickly if not done by proxy.

More speculation, and again, completely irrelevant to the function of their company, or their claims to be an industry leader in ASIC mining hardware design (which they demonstrably were, and less arguably still are).

Has everyone forgotten the fiasco that Josh had (repeatedly) with not even knowing when their chips were coming out of the fab?

It was a multi-month long show that lasted from October till sometimes in March. Then the next fiasco took place. They had no real idea what they were doing with the packager (the next stage after the fab). And of course (predictably, if you knew the setup BFL was using) that they were going to face issues with packaging their naked chips. That alone lasted (up until April or May).

So then, it would seem that they lost their lead in the industry. Again, irrelevant to the question (and obvious answer in the affirmative) that they WERE a leader in ASICS and, if we want to take it a step further, FPGAs, as the time of the publication of that article.

Now, they seem to have finally got the hang of it. (Finally)

Yay! ...totally irrelevant!

Alot of this didn't happen at either ASICMiner nor Avalon.

Why is that?

Still irrelevant to the discussion. We don't know if anything was outsourced by those other companies either, and even if it wasn't it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not BFL was a leader at the time of the publication of the article in question.

By the way, bASIC used a very similar setup to BFL. Do you see them around today?

This has already been completely debunked a few pages back. bASIC never had a product, nor any apparent intention of, or progress toward, creating one.

[wrenchmonkey]

I wonder if the company that BFL bought their ASIC design from knows that BFL is pretending the design is theirs.
That might be why BFL has never identified their supplier for the design.

Subcontractors don't care about such petty horse shit. That's why they're subcontractors.

[dwolfman]

This thread looks so much nicer with the monkey being ignored. 

[a1phanumrc]

This thread looks so much nicer with the monkey being ignored. 

Good idea! The rant is getting tiring.

[k9quaint]

When I see Wrenchmonkey in this thread it reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGfNSitVQFM

His dancing act trying to make BFL into a microprocessor design company that doesn't have anyone who can actually do microprocessor design is only slighlty less of a WTF.

I wonder if the company that BFL bought their ASIC design from knows that BFL is pretending the design is theirs.
That might be why BFL has never identified their supplier for the design.

Subcontractors don't care about such petty horse shit. That's why they're subcontractors.

I am sure everyone will be glad to hear that Wrenchmonkey says they can fraudulently pass off others work as their own.

[wrenchmonkey]

Fraudulently pass off workers as their own? LOL. You've jumped the shark, K9, I really mean that...

[wrenchmonkey]

This thread looks so much nicer with the monkey being ignored. 

It's cool, logic and reading aren't for everybody...

[darkmule]

wrenchmonkey
Re: [Call to arms] Why don't you destroy BFL rather than QQ?
Today at 09:11:33 PM
This user is currently ignored.

wrenchmonkey
Re: [Call to arms] Why don't you destroy BFL rather than QQ?
Today at 09:16:16 PM
This user is currently ignored.

wrenchmonkey
Re: [Call to arms] Why don't you destroy BFL rather than QQ?
Today at 09:21:39 PM

wrenchmonkey
Re: [Call to arms] Why don't you destroy BFL rather than QQ?
Today at 09:30:27 PM

Etc. etc. etc.

Thank God for the bozo bin.

[k9quaint]

Fraudulently pass off workers as their own? LOL. You've jumped the shark, K9, I really mean that...

The Dancing Queen fails again at reading comprehension.

I said "fraudulently pass off others work as their own." not other workers.

If you claim to be an industry leader in microprocessor design and it turns out that you have no expertise in microprocessor design, do not ever engage in the act of microprocessor design, and secretly have others do the design while you claim their work as your own, that constitutes fraud if you did it to trick customers.

/pats the Dancing Queen on the head.

[wrenchmonkey]

Fraudulently pass off workers as their own? LOL. You've jumped the shark, K9, I really mean that...

The Dancing Queen fails again at reading comprehension.

I said "fraudulently pass off others work as their own." not other workers.

If you claim to be an industry leader in microprocessor design and it turns out that you have no expertise in microprocessor design, do not ever engage in the act of microprocessor design, and secretly have others do the design while you claim their work as your own, that constitutes fraud if you did it to trick customers.

/pats the Dancing Queen on the head.

If your company is the first to produce a specific type of microprocessor, and it drives the entire industry to mimic you and follow with their own ASIC designs as a result, you're a leader in that field. Especially if you were already a well known leader in the industry with other microprocessors, like, say... FPGAs...

Doesn't matter how you achieved it, or if you hired people to design it while sitting in YOUR office, or you hired them to design it while sitting in somebody else's office. Your company did the legwork to get the licensed design completed, nobody else in the industry has done it. You are the leader. You win. Full stop. End of story.

Keep fuckin' that chicken... You're clearly incapable of understanding how business and industry work. And as I said, you've definitely jumped the shark.

[PuertoLibre]

wrenchmonkey
Re: [Call to arms] Why don't you destroy BFL rather than QQ?
Today at 09:11:33 PM
This user is currently ignored.

wrenchmonkey
Re: [Call to arms] Why don't you destroy BFL rather than QQ?
Today at 09:16:16 PM
This user is currently ignored.

wrenchmonkey
Re: [Call to arms] Why don't you destroy BFL rather than QQ?
Today at 09:21:39 PM

wrenchmonkey
Re: [Call to arms] Why don't you destroy BFL rather than QQ?
Today at 09:30:27 PM

Etc. etc. etc.

Thank God for the bozo bin.

Alright, I will join in on turning my back on the monkey.

Has everyone forgotten the fiasco that Josh had (repeatedly) with not even knowing when their chips were coming out of the fab?

It was a multi-month long show that lasted from October till sometimes in March. Then the next fiasco took place. They had no real idea what they were doing with the packager (the next stage after the fab). And of course (predictably, if you knew the setup BFL was using) that they were going to face issues with packaging their naked chips. That alone lasted (up until April or May).

So then, it would seem that they lost their lead in the industry. Again, irrelevant to the question (and obvious answer in the affirmative) that they WERE a leader in ASICS and, if we want to take it a step further, FPGAs, as the time of the publication of that article.

(BFL a market leader in ASICs? What a joke!)

[k9quaint]

(BFL a market leader in ASICs? What a joke!)

^This.

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

No, serious question. Are you saying that industry leaders are precluded from subcontracting? Apple will be totally bummed to hear this...

BFL is an industry leader?

WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS. Are you retarded? We're talking about the state of things as they were at the time of the news article in question.

There's currently no clear-cut leader, although I think we all agree that BFL is falling behind. Once again, irrelevant to the discussion.

Is your ability to think in terms of the context of time completely broken? Who was the ASIC industry leader at the time of the article in question?

^^
This

[dogie]

Thought I'd just bump this topic and apoloigise to Josh. He clearly defeated the refund tsunami, by simply breaking the law and refusing preorder refunds xD

Gg.

[crazyates]

QQ Moar

[Xian01]

QQ Moar

 Ethics are a difficult concept to grasp for some.

 It's curious how there are similar consistent personality traits amongst people defending America's favorite Bitcoin ASIC company.

 While I'm happy that you are a satisfied customer, I hope you can appreciate how many others have had differing experiences that run counter to yours.

[SLok]

In the meantime BFL delivered more devices and THash than Avalon did in all their batches combined. Bye!

[greaterninja]

Avalon and BFL are not delivering on time.  Let alone they are not delivering in a timely manner.  
In the U.S. they can be taken to Civil or Criminal court for their incompetence.  I will not elaborate more on this as it will spark further debate.
If you guys have such a big issue, form a class action lawsuit OR retain your own lawyers.

[k9quaint]

In the meantime BFL delivered more devices and THash than Avalon did in all their batches combined. Bye!

Avalon has delivered at least 60 TH/s now that batch 2 has shipped.
BFL has delivered a few mini-rigs, a few dozen singles, and a few hundred Jalapenos. Until BFL makes double digits in the mini-rigs (the full 1.5TH/s in 3 units), they won't catch up. Even 500 singles and 1000 Jalapenos would only get them half way there. And since nobody knows how many units BFL has shipped besides BFL and they are not telling anyone, it can't be very good news.

Avalon was very late with their second batch, and is extremely late with batch 3. Disappointing.

[bitcoiner49er]

In the meantime BFL delivered more devices and THash than Avalon did in all their batches combined. Bye!

Source?

And what is the percentage between fulfilled and unfulfilled for both BFL and Avalon?

[crazyates]

QQ Moar

Ethics are a difficult concept to grasp for some.

It's curious how there are similar consistent personality traits amongst people defending America's favorite Bitcoin ASIC company.

While I'm happy that you are a satisfied customer, I hope you can appreciate how many others have had differing experiences that run counter to yours.

Please, explain:
Explain what problems you have with my ethics? Esp since you know nothing about me.
And what personality traits are you suggesting I might possess, as a customer of BFL?
And lastly, you think my year long ordeal with BFL has been peachy and rosey? No, but I stuck with it, and now the rewards are being reaped from the risk.

[Xian01]

Explain what problems you have with my ethics? Esp since you know nothing about me.

 The specific complaint is the implication of "screw you, I got mine".

 I'll just leave it at that.
 

[crazyates]

Explain what problems you have with my ethics? Esp since you know nothing about me.

The specific complaint is the implication of "screw you, I got mine".

I've never said anything of the sort. Nor did I intend to imply it, if that's what you got out of that. I've been fed up with BFL haters for many months now, since before I got my ASIC.

If they're not getting a refund, then they're going to be getting an ASIC. It's not like BFL is canceling their orders and keeping their money.

And you didn't answer my other 2 questions.

[Xian01]

And you didn't answer my other 2 questions.

 It's not worth the effort to explain it. We have a fundamental difference of opinions.

 I will simply state that while you have been fed up with haters, I have been fed up with sycophants.

[ionstorm]

Id support a class action against them, they need to get their shit together and work through their backlog within 45 days or I'll be talking to a few law firms with a rather large base of screwed bfl customers. 

[crazyates]

I will simply state that while you have been fed up with haters, I have been fed up with sycophants.

You think I got my unit cuz I've defended them multiple times on these forums? No, I got my unit cuz I had one of the very first pre-orders on the list. There was no "random" lottery that got my unit out the door first. Sorry, but try again.

[Xian01]

You think I got my unit cuz I've defended them multiple times on these forums?

"I've never said anything of the sort"

"Sorry, but try again."

[k9quaint]

I will simply state that while you have been fed up with haters, I have been fed up with sycophants.

You think I got my unit cuz I've defended them multiple times on these forums? No, I got my unit cuz I had one of the very first pre-orders on the list. There was no "random" lottery that got my unit out the door first. Sorry, but try again.

Standard Operating Procedure in BFL forum topics:

If Not Outwardly Pro-BFL, user is either:
A. Troll
B. Douchebag

Months from now, when all BFL users are happily hashing away trying desperately to recoup half their money, we can finally put BFL to rest.

I wonder how the BFL wallet hockey pucks they announced at the Bitcoin conference in May are doing?

[chanson]

I found the following mildly amusing in this thread's context:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sycophant#Shift_in_meaning_in_modern_English

I'm not sure Xian01 intended either meaning, as both could apply only to BFL critics.

[OmegaNemesis28]

I found the following mildly amusing in this thread's context:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sycophant#Shift_in_meaning_in_modern_English

I'm not sure Xian01 intended either meaning, as both could apply only to BFL critics.

What I read...

The word “sycophant” entered the English and French languages in the mid 16th Century, and originally two weeks later had the same meaning in English and French (sycophante) as in Greek, a false accuser.

[k9quaint]

I will simply state that while you have been fed up with haters, I have been fed up with sycophants.

You think I got my unit cuz I've defended them multiple times on these forums? No, I got my unit cuz I had one of the very first pre-orders on the list. There was no "random" lottery that got my unit out the door first. Sorry, but try again.

Standard Operating Procedure in BFL forum topics:

If Not Outwardly Pro-BFL, user is either:
A. Troll
B. Douchebag

Months from now, when all BFL users are happily hashing away trying desperately to recoup half their money, we can finally put BFL to rest.

I wonder how the BFL wallet hockey pucks they announced at the Bitcoin conference in May are doing?

I didn't write that.  Fabricating again?

Oops. Did I leave out:
C, Liar

Sorry.

And why are the BFL fanbois swirling around these threads again? Why aren't you all high-fiving and drinking champagne over at forums.butterflylabs.com? After all BFL (according to you) is doing awesome, its customers are happy, and pre-orders are flowing in. Right?
Why do you all suddenly feel the need to play spin doctor here now? Is there trouble in paradise?

[dogie]

In the meantime BFL delivered more devices and THash than Avalon did in all their batches combined. Bye!

That fucking maths.
800 units @ 80GH = 64Th. BFL? 5-10?

64>5-10

[k9quaint]

I will simply state that while you have been fed up with haters, I have been fed up with sycophants.

You think I got my unit cuz I've defended them multiple times on these forums? No, I got my unit cuz I had one of the very first pre-orders on the list. There was no "random" lottery that got my unit out the door first. Sorry, but try again.

Standard Operating Procedure in BFL forum topics:

If Not Outwardly Pro-BFL, user is either:
A. Troll
B. Douchebag

Months from now, when all BFL users are happily hashing away trying desperately to recoup half their money, we can finally put BFL to rest.

I wonder how the BFL wallet hockey pucks they announced at the Bitcoin conference in May are doing?

I totally wrote that.

Oops. Did I leave out:
C, Liar

Sorry.

Apology for embarrassing BFL accepted.  Again.

Is there a procedure for how you decide whether to go with A, B, or C? Or is that a BFL trade secret?

[k9quaint]

I will simply state that while you have been fed up with haters, I have been fed up with sycophants.

You think I got my unit cuz I've defended them multiple times on these forums? No, I got my unit cuz I had one of the very first pre-orders on the list. There was no "random" lottery that got my unit out the door first. Sorry, but try again.

Standard Operating Procedure in BFL forum topics:

If Not Outwardly Pro-BFL, user is either:
A. Troll
B. Douchebag

Months from now, when all BFL users are happily hashing away trying desperately to recoup half their money, we can finally put BFL to rest.

I wonder how the BFL wallet hockey pucks they announced at the Bitcoin conference in May are doing?

I totally wrote that.

Oops. Did I leave out:
C, Liar

Sorry.

Apology for embarrassing BFL accepted.  Again.

Is there a procedure for how you decide whether to go with A, B, or C? Or is that a BFL trade secret?

I am being paid to derail BFL threads and shill for them. 3 more posts and I get a free Jalapeno.

Yes yes. We get it. You love BFL and feel threatened by something and are lashing out.
There there little fanboi, it will all be over soon.

[k9quaint]

I will simply state that while you have been fed up with haters, I have been fed up with sycophants.

You think I got my unit cuz I've defended them multiple times on these forums? No, I got my unit cuz I had one of the very first pre-orders on the list. There was no "random" lottery that got my unit out the door first. Sorry, but try again.

Standard Operating Procedure in BFL forum topics:

If Not Outwardly Pro-BFL, user is either:
A. Troll
B. Douchebag

Months from now, when all BFL users are happily hashing away trying desperately to recoup half their money, we can finally put BFL to rest.

I wonder how the BFL wallet hockey pucks they announced at the Bitcoin conference in May are doing?

I totally wrote that.

Oops. Did I leave out:
C, Liar

Sorry.

Apology for embarrassing BFL accepted.  Again.

Is there a procedure for how you decide whether to go with A, B, or C? Or is that a BFL trade secret?

I am being paid to derail BFL threads and shill for them. 3 more posts and I get a free Jalapeno.

Yes yes. We get it. You love BFL and feel threatened by something and are lashing out.
There there little fanboi, it will all be over soon.

I am so tired of being wrong. I stated in this thread stating that BFL would profit from everyone asking for refunds. Now I have been proven to be an idiot and I am grumpy.

It was impossible to convince you back then, so what changed? Was it BFL stopping all refunds after people started asking for them? Was it PayPal honoring refunds even past the 45 days? Was it the FTC rules about having to refund if someone asks when you have not shipped them their product? Or is there some new dark bit of news out of BFL land?

[k9quaint]

Could you show me where in this thread I said that BFL getting a bunch of refund requests would be good for BFL?

Sure can.

You said it here:

Again, following the idea of this hypothetical if all orders were refunded, new customers would be lining up to give BFL money as they already have been - with the added bonus of no more people in front of them any more.

and here:

This entire post is based on a hypothetical.  An absurd one at that, which would have the exact opposite effect of what it foolishly intended.

and here:

My argument is also leveraging the past history where BFL refunds aren't given out instantly, but over the course of a few days. '

So, more simply, if $5 million (or whatever number you want to put here) goes out on the 14th, the current demand in the market for ASICs would easily dictate 5 million+ being right back on BFL's books before the 21st when all of those refunds were sent.

I guess now that the refunds are actually beginning to show up, you guys have start working to get that "$5 million right back on BFL's books".
I am glad you are not dodging this conversation like you were the earlier one.

PSA:
If you have ordered from BFL and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask BFL for one, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with PayPal even if you are outside the 45 day window. One customer has already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via BTC or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC and they will advocate for you with BFL to get your refund.

[YipYip]

Could you show me where in this thread I said that BFL getting a bunch of refund requests would be good for BFL?

Sure can.

You said it here:

Again, following the idea of this hypothetical if all orders were refunded, new customers would be lining up to give BFL money as they already have been - with the added bonus of no more people in front of them any more.

and here:

This entire post is based on a hypothetical.  An absurd one at that, which would have the exact opposite effect of what it foolishly intended.

and here:

My argument is also leveraging the past history where BFL refunds aren't given out instantly, but over the course of a few days. '

So, more simply, if $5 million (or whatever number you want to put here) goes out on the 14th, the current demand in the market for ASICs would easily dictate 5 million+ being right back on BFL's books before the 21st when all of those refunds were sent.

I guess now that the refunds are actually beginning to show up, you guys have start working to get that "$5 million right back on BFL's books".
I am glad you are not dodging this conversation like you were the earlier one.

PSA:
If you have ordered from BFL and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask BFL for one, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with PayPal even if you are outside the 45 day window. One customer has already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via BTC or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC and they will advocate for you with BFL to get your refund.

TheDropKickGuy....That burn looks like it could use some ointment

Please be careful as a infection may develop