Why QQ?

[dogie]

More likely the OP actually does have a BFL order and just wants to move forward in the queue by people ahead of him cancelling.

The biggest flaw of many in the proposed idea.

There's more than one reason why people have vested interest in BFL failing completely.  OP was honest enough to put it right in his disclaimer:

Edit: Added disclaimer, I have investments in ASICMiner and Avalon, however it doesn't change my outlook towards BFL. If I had been around at the time, I'd also have 10 preorders and going mental like you all.

I put a disclaimer but as I said a few pages back, I literally couldn't care less what company it is - it just happens that I wasn't around at the time of the BFL bubble. IF ASICMiner said "fuck it, 51% time" then I'd equally be against them.

[dogie]

Note that OP himself was not able/chose not to aside from a few more emotionally-driven posts laced with the usual anti-BFL sentiment which becomes apparent from those with current heavy investments in other ASIC companies.

xD The fuck? Just because we all haven't been brainwashed so much by our captives that you spent what, 2-3 hours, defending a company who is screwing you royally.

I've said it before I've said it again - I don't care. Eat the shit sandwich, don't eat the shit sandwich, its up to you.

I think your the disconnect here is that you are so invested in this (ideologically, monetarily idk) that you aren't willing to take a look at what BFL has done wrong.  You talk about objectivity, but how can you ignore the lists thrown at you?  You just keep saying how ridiculous it is and the op's idea wouldn't work, so what would work?  Why do you think it's wrong to try to fight this?

+1

Its almost as if you are a shill

[k9quaint]

Your market forces are indeed present, but I don't think they are on your side.

See, this is why it's becoming less and less worth my time to try and explain anything.  Despite countless attempts to enlighten otherwise, I don't have a side.  At least, not in this particular space.  My side is ASICs being more readily available.  It is also consumers being able to attain them in a relatively fair way without any one company monopolizing.  You know, the basic principles behind Bitcoin: decentralization.

Walk that talk for a while, then come back and try to sell it.

Below is just one of many examples of market forces in action, specific to the the how they would behave in OP's ludicrous suggestion.

Please do as he says so I can get my units faster.  Thx.

If BFL suddenly has a shorter pre-order list, my estimation is that they would get more orders coming in because people could receive them in a timeframe that is easier to judge.  You estimate differently.  Nothing will change that.

That may be true.
1) You have a fundamental lack of understanding of reputation risk
2) You are unwilling to question the veracity of statements BFL has made.

I suppose you are type of person to walk into a burning movie theater because you see all the other customers fleeing. You figure you will get good seats for the show since all the other customers left!   

[k9quaint]

1.  Do I? Here's an example, provided conveniently on another thread by OP, of just what kind of damage BFL's reputation risk is doing: (Is this the burning theater you're referencing? That's a pricey movie ticket! )

0_o People are paying Avalon level prices for a product that:
1) Doesnt even have a prototype yet
2) Has a queue, even if you are at the front
3) Unknown timeframe
4) Lower hash rate.
OP

For context, this is for a 6/23/12 BFL 60 GH/s order.  It's up to 98 btc.  These are the market forces that I've mentioned and you previously equated to me believing in magic:

To my knowledge, there has not been a mass refund (yet). BFL has not suffered catastrophic reputational damage. We know there are people in the world who have more money than sense, you don't need to post an auction to prove it.

Do you see people still investing in Bitcoin Savings and Trust?
Do you see people still putting their money in Bitcoinica?
Do you see people still putting their money in Mybitcoin.com?
Do you see people still buying bASIC devices?
All those companies imploded. Why didn't customers pile in to save them?

2. I'm plenty willing to question their statements, in a rational manner, and given their long-term and recent history.  This combined with anecdotal evidence from the forums has provided me with all of the information I need as a consumer put a risk assessment on BFL.  I'm not willing to speculate about supposed conspiracies.

P.S. Despite the fact that we disagree on some things, I do respect your opinion and can understand your perspective as well.

As long as you cling to the idea that BFL has unlimited money, you will never see them at risk of imploding.
Clearly you believe they have segregated all of their customer orders in an escrow account and spawned by magic the operating funds for a 20 person company (plus consultants) over the last 11 months.
Here is Inaba/Josh saying back in July 27, 2012 that the BFL singles were being prepped to ship and mini-rigs were being assembled.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90333.msg994223#msg994223
Clearly, their business plans at that time did not include an additional 10 months of operating costs. Where did that money come from?
No venture capital group or private equity group has claimed to have invested in BFL. No angels have claimed them either.

You say that you are not their accountant and therefore you are unconcerned by any financial details of BFL. That my friend, is what is called willful ignorance.

There is already good competition in the ASIC community. More is on the way.
Bitcoin would have been better served if BFL had never existed, that money would have been spent on Avalon and ASICMiner (and perhaps other ventures). Of course, BFL was great for people who already had mining equipment (and did not order from BFL). BFL kept millions of dollars from being invested in actual hash rate and increasing the profit margin of every existing miner.

[hexed]

Good lord K9.. might want to find someone else to argue with cause you are getting your ass handed to you in this thread.  At least Puerto has the sense to just make a couple of broad pop-shots at BFL.. but ThatDGuy is eating your lunch.  I'd find an irrational BFL "fanboi" to argue with in another thread.

As for the original topic, which I have already commented on.. I will summarize my projections for the future:

1.  There will be no mass cancellation of orders... ever.  Unless another company starts shipping as soon as orders come in, and they sell their product for anywhere CLOSE to the current hashing capability/$$$ ratio that BFL is, it isn't going to happen.   I've said it before and I'll say it again, people have been waiting for close to a year now.. do you think with all the reported progress from BFL that they are suddenly going to lose this patience?  It's not going to happen.  (disclaimer before someone like k9 cherry picks this point to argue.. I said "reported progress".  It could still be a lie/overstatement/fluff)

2.  BFL is not going bankrupt.  If this "mass exodus" would have happened about 6 months ago, I could have seen this as a possibility (even though 6 months ago, the idea of a mass exodus was even more impossible than now).  6 months ago, they did not have a working prototype.  Well now they do and are shipping out, not at their full 400 a day capacity.  Let's say for arguments sake that ONLY the jalapenos are being made and ever will be because they decided not to continue making or designing large hashing machines.  They still have the jalapenos designed and working, and if they cranked out about 2000 of these things in a short amount of time, they could mine 1 MILLION DOLLARS in a month.  That is only 2000 of these products.  If they did way more.. they could definitely make enough to issue refunds and keep the doors open.  Then additionally, you think if they have jalapenos ready for shipment, and no queue, that people wouldn't order?  Sorry, people would much rather pay $300 for a 5GH/s miner form a supposed "horrible company" than pay $4000 for 5GH/s worth of USB miners @ 300MH/s each from a supposed "good" company.

Seriously, I would bet my house on these two points.  This is all very similar to the whole Electronic Arts arguments EVERY time they screw over their customer base. " Sniff Sniff Cry Cry... Everyone.. let's BAND TOGETHER and choose to NEVER buy an EA product until they get their act together".  The next version of that game comes out and it does RECORD SALES.  People have said the same thing about Call of Duty OVER and OVER and OVER again.  Before it comes out, TONS of threads to BOYCOTT BOYCOTT BOYCOTT!!  Then when the game comes out, tons of threads on "I'll never buy Activision games, or I'll be passing up on the next Call of Duty cause Activision are liars and cheats and a horrible company"  and they even go as far as to start a stupid petition (like that EVER does anything) but then the next Call of Duty comes out.  RECORD SALES and the same people who were screaming to boycott are back on the forums again saying they bought the game and this time we need to boycott the next Call of Duty.. AGAIN.  Rinse and repeat while Activision laughs all the way to the bank.

[nbtcminer]

Do you see people still buying bASIC devices?

While you may not believe it; BFL has delivered quite a few ASIC devices (albeit only Jalapenos at the moment). What makes me most sad is that those who are the loudest detractors of BFL actually hold / have BFL mining equipment. Talk about talking out of the side of your mouth.

[k9quaint]

We know there are people in the world who have more money than sense

Perfect concession, plenty sufficient to end that conversation on.  Way past the hypothetical now.

I was going to bring up that not a single group buy of BFL's chips succeeded. The only group buy that has not given up is one that is asking for 100% escrow via John K (meaning zero money given to BFL until the chips are shipped). Perhaps BFL will agree given they haven't had any successful buys. That is not a market clamoring for BFL product. That is a market that is very wary of BFL and unwilling to extend them any more benefit of the doubt.

2. I'm plenty willing to question their statements, in a rational manner, and given their long-term and recent history.  This combined with anecdotal evidence from the forums has provided me with all of the information I need as a consumer put a risk assessment on BFL.  I'm not willing to speculate about supposed conspiracies.

P.S. Despite the fact that we disagree on some things, I do respect your opinion and can understand your perspective as well.

As long as you cling to the idea that BFL has unlimited money, you will never see them at risk of imploding.
Clearly you believe they have segregated all of their customer orders in an escrow account and spawned by magic the operating funds for a 20 person company (plus consultants) over the last 11 months.
Here is Inaba/Josh saying back in July 27, 2012 that the BFL singles were being prepped to ship and mini-rigs were being assembled.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90333.msg994223#msg994223
Clearly, their business plans at that time did not include an additional 10 months of operating costs. Where did that money come from?
No venture capital group or private equity group has claimed to have invested in BFL. No angels have claimed them either.

I don't believe any of that, that was another poor inference on your part.

As for the post that long ago, it's a fascinating look at history, and also makes it apparent why some people have the gripes that they do.  I am not in that group of people.  I came on board well after that, and could look back at the relevant parts of BFL's history to make an assessment of what kind of risk I was willing to take, and what the portions of a portfolio would be.

I am not alone in this group of consumers, judging from anecdotal evidence.

You say that you are not their accountant and therefore you are unconcerned by any financial details of BFL. That my friend, is what is called willful ignorance.

No it's not.  Despite the fact that I don't immediately subscribe to everything you post, I've discussed multiple times the rationale behind my risk assessment.

If I haven't made it clear before, I'm well aware of what BFL threads degenerate to.  Without having possession of BFL proprietary info (which only they rightfully have) I'm not going to entertain any discussion about their financial details.  It's not worth the time, or wasted energy.

A neat way to dismiss the core of peoples worries about BFL. You don't have proof and you are unwilling to entertain circumstantial evidence. BFL said they have the money and that is good enough for you. BFL said they have the products and that is good enough for you.

There is already good competition in the ASIC community. More is on the way.
Bitcoin would have been better served if BFL had never existed, that money would have been spent on Avalon and ASICMiner (and perhaps other ventures). Of course, BFL was great for people who already had mining equipment (and did not order from BFL). BFL kept millions of dollars from being invested in actual hash rate and increasing the profit margin of every existing miner.

Perhaps being the key word.  It's very easy to see in hindsight all of the woulda/shoulda/couldas.  Opportunity cost has to be a constant consideration.

Those people with pre-orders can go get refunds right now if they want to put their money elsewhere.  They all have risks associated with them, that's just the nature of the marketplace right now.  This will all be different over the coming months.  As I've said countless times here, consumers will vote with their $/BTC.

For a lot of people, it was very easy to see in foresight. They brought up arguments like "not possible due to the laws of physics" and "people who make power and usage claims like that cannot possibly understand chip & PCB design". Those threads were not the ravings of trolls as the BFL folks claimed. They were simply people who knew that 5 watts would not heat a cup of coffee. They knew that getting 5GH/s out of 5 watts of power was so absurdly optimistic that no reasonable company would target it for a 65nm process. They knew that such a device could not be reliably powered by USB alone.

All these complaints rooted in elementary physics were dismissed as the ravings of haters and trolls by Inaba himself.

I am sure if BFL does crater, people will say "oh well, we couldn't have known" and that will be untrue.

[Inaba]

As long as you cling to the idea that BFL has unlimited money, you will never see them at risk of imploding.
Clearly you believe they have segregated all of their customer orders in an escrow account and spawned by magic the operating funds for a 20 person company (plus consultants) over the last 11 months.
Here is Inaba/Josh saying back in July 27, 2012 that the BFL singles were being prepped to ship and mini-rigs were being assembled.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90333.msg994223#msg994223
Clearly, their business plans at that time did not include an additional 10 months of operating costs. Where did that money come from?
No venture capital group or private equity group has claimed to have invested in BFL. No angels have claimed them either.

There's my little liar again, k9quaint.

What our dear friend k9 has neglected to mention in the above quote is that:

1) I was not working for BFL at the time.
2) I was referring to the FPGA equipment, which was in fact shipping.

But don't let context, facts and honesty deter your ranting K9.  Just keep piling up the BS.

[k9quaint]

As long as you cling to the idea that BFL has unlimited money, you will never see them at risk of imploding.
Clearly you believe they have segregated all of their customer orders in an escrow account and spawned by magic the operating funds for a 20 person company (plus consultants) over the last 11 months.
Here is Inaba/Josh saying back in July 27, 2012 that the BFL singles were being prepped to ship and mini-rigs were being assembled.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90333.msg994223#msg994223
Clearly, their business plans at that time did not include an additional 10 months of operating costs. Where did that money come from?
No venture capital group or private equity group has claimed to have invested in BFL. No angels have claimed them either.

There's my little liar again, k9quaint.

What our dear friend k9 has neglected to mention in the above quote is that:

1) I was not working for BFL at the time.
2) I was referring to the FPGA equipment, which was in fact shipping.

But don't let context, facts and honesty deter your ranting K9.  Just keep piling up the BS.

Oh how cute. Josh says that their FPGA sales have been providing the last 10 months of operating costs. Well that explains it all then. BFL has been selling FPGA devices this whole time to fund the 11 months of ASIC development.

Should I bother digging up BFL's explanation of why they discontinued their FPGA line? Or should I leave that as an exercise to the reader.

/pats Josh on the head

[Xian01]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

(And I saw your edit before you back-pedaled on it - jabbing me for buying 20 Erupter USB's

[k9quaint]

We know there are people in the world who have more money than sense

Perfect concession, plenty sufficient to end that conversation on.  Way past the hypothetical now.

I was going to bring up that not a single group buy of BFL's chips succeeded. The only group buy that has not given up is one that is asking for 100% escrow via John K (meaning zero money given to BFL until the chips are shipped). Perhaps BFL will agree given they haven't had any successful buys. That is not a market clamoring for BFL product. That is a market that is very wary of BFL and unwilling to extend them any more benefit of the doubt.

Wow.  So now you're taking it to the chips sale category?  Whether BFL can successfully get into the chips market given the consumer base there is an entirely different subject.  Why even bring that up when all I need to do is take one minute to find and post this:

Same topic, but maybe I moved to fast for you. We were talking about the market's response to BFL's products and whether they thought that BFL could deliver. Their latest "product" offering fell flat on it's face. That is an actual market response. If what you were saying was true, there should have been enormous uptake in the BFL chip offering. Quite the opposite.

BlackLilac @20 - Canada
Chanberg @15 - UK
pvtbrutus @12 - Netherlands

3 current bids for 5 GH/s miners.  

People are voting with their wallets.  Over and over and over again.  You are offering more tangential evidence to support your theory but it ultimately fails every time it comes down to $ and BTC, and the law of supply and demand.

Jalapeno's are rare and existing ones command a good price. Nobody is arguing that. The entire reason they command a good price is people think BFL won't be able to deliver their orderbook in any reasonable time frame. If people believed that BFL could deliver a Jalapeno ordered today, they would simply order it from BFL and get it in a reasonable amount of time. They would not pay 20 BTC for the rarest of rare treasures, a BFL device in the wild.

Those auctions are very different than a pre-order for a  50GH/s device that does not yet exist that is slated for delivery 90 days from now from a company that has never once met a deadline. I have demonstrated that BFL's latest product offering fell flat on it's face. You are conflating sales of what exists with pre-orders of yet to be developed devices.

Maybe BFL will eventually get the singles and mini-rigs working and shipped. But I doubt they would survive a mass of refunds from those who ordered those devices. That is 93% of their order book according to the only data we have.

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer who apparently had enough funds to then purchase 20 USB miners @ 2BTC per unit?

They certainly have money in the bank. If they didn't, we would see notices of eviction actions and lawsuits to recover money owed by BFL filed in the courts. How much money is the question. If they spent half their pre-order cash funding 8 extra months of development, then they are vulnerable to a mass of refund requests.

[Bitcoinorama]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

Diminish legal responsibility, and continue the illusion they are competent...

(Note: only *if that's the case, hypothetically speaking)

For what it's worth I think BFL are doing the best they currently can. It's better they ship something than nothing.

What I don't get is the overtones of arrogance when they've demonstrated their ability to consistently miss deadlines and make mistakes, there should really be some evidence of humility on their part. Sme people never want to admit they were wrong, or apologise, but in the face of what's happened a humble response is warranted. The best idea is to bulk chip all and open source pcb design to the community, I actually suggested this in the week before they made that announcemt, but the bridges appear to have already been burnt, when the could have swallowed pride and opened up to some talented community members ready and willing to help!

[wrenchmonkey]

As long as you cling to the idea that BFL has unlimited money, you will never see them at risk of imploding.
Clearly you believe they have segregated all of their customer orders in an escrow account and spawned by magic the operating funds for a 20 person company (plus consultants) over the last 11 months.
Here is Inaba/Josh saying back in July 27, 2012 that the BFL singles were being prepped to ship and mini-rigs were being assembled.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90333.msg994223#msg994223
Clearly, their business plans at that time did not include an additional 10 months of operating costs. Where did that money come from?
No venture capital group or private equity group has claimed to have invested in BFL. No angels have claimed them either.

There's my little liar again, k9quaint.

What our dear friend k9 has neglected to mention in the above quote is that:

1) I was not working for BFL at the time.
2) I was referring to the FPGA equipment, which was in fact shipping.

But don't let context, facts and honesty deter your ranting K9.  Just keep piling up the BS.

Oh how cute. Josh says that their FPGA sales have been providing the last 10 months of operating costs. Well that explains it all then. BFL has been selling FPGA devices this whole time to fund the 11 months of ASIC development.

Should I bother digging up BFL's explanation of why they discontinued their FPGA line? Or should I leave that as an exercise to the reader.

/pats Josh on the head

I hate to belabor this point and add further tangential fuel to the fire, but I have a very simple question:

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Edit: removed circumstantial evidence for consistency's sake.

Not only that, but it would seem that K9quaint is either completely incapable of reading comprehension, or he is ignoring everything meaningful in that post (because it demonstrates K9 to be a liar) and instead tries to twist the words of the post into something entirely unrelated.

Nowhere did Josh say anything about how BFL is paying its operating costs in that post. Only that K9 was lying and intentionally hiding context, in order to push his bullshit.

Now if there were only a button to ignore quoted posts. This one is his own special breed of retard...

[wrenchmonkey]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

Diminish legal responsibility, and continue the illusion they are competent...

(Note: only *if that's the case, hypothetically speaking)

His post said NOTHING positive or otherwise about BFL's competency. He merely pointed out the fallacy of assuming a company is out of money, when they're clearly continuing operations, and forcing refunds on whiny little cunt nuggets like Xian.

[k9quaint]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

More disinformation from ThatDGuy.
ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
 contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

11 months of product development and a full company with offices paid for with what money? They discontinued their FPGA sales and they were never that profitable so it can't be from that. Nobody has owned up to investing in BFL. BFL has never identified any investment made in them other than a cryptic message about support from a "private equity group" that has never been mentioned since (probably for legal reasons).

[k9quaint]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

Diminish legal responsibility, and continue the illusion they are competent...

(Note: only *if that's the case, hypothetically speaking)

His post said NOTHING positive or otherwise about BFL's competency. He merely pointed out the fallacy of assuming a company is out of money, when they're clearly continuing operations, and forcing refunds on whiny little cunt nuggets like Xian.

Thank you.  It's insane to me that I literally pre-empted what I said with this:

I hate to belabor this point and add further tangential fuel to the fire, but I have a very simple question:

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Edit: removed circumstantial evidence for consistency's sake.

...yet people still will remove context and put their own around it to dilute, muddle, and derail the conversation.

UGH, hate having to repeat myself, but if you want to rehash your debunked positions, so be it.

More disinformation from ThatDGuy.
ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
I contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

[k9quaint]

You're now asserting that BFL has the risk of imploding assuming a "mass of refund request" - i.e. Dogie's impossible idea.  i.e. the ludicrous hypothesis that I was pretty sure we stopped talking about 2 pages ago.

I was always saying it was not ludicrous, that it would not benefit BFL, and that your claims that a mass refund request would benefit BFL was what was absurd. I am still saying that. Your failure to examine the facts of the situation is why you are confused. Perhaps you should go back and read my posts again.

[wrenchmonkey]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

More disinformation from ThatDGuy.
ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
 contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

11 months of product development and a full company with offices paid for with what money? They discontinued their FPGA sales and they were never that profitable so it can't be from that. Nobody has owned up to investing in BFL. BFL has never identified any investment made in them other than a cryptic message about support from a "private equity group" that has never been mentioned since (probably for legal reasons).

What would be the benefit of a silent investor suddenly going for a public announcement? So you and all your fellow reddit kiddies could go after them as well? Yeah, fuck that. You are SOOOOO clueless, it's astounding.

If you and your fellow 'tards were somehow magically able to convince people with a vested financial interest in getting their hardware to suddenly jump ship after MONTHS--when you have people like Xian, who was as big a hater as anybody who fought and continues to fight TOOTH AND NAIL to get his order reinstated--Assuming you were able to pull off that impossible feat, believe me, there are thousands of people with cash in hand who would be LINED UP to place more orders.

If you find a way to clear the queue for us, PLEASE let me know, as I'll place roughly $18,000 of Jalapeno orders, IMMEDIATELY upon learning that there's no longer any backlog. I guarantee you that I am not the only one. I'd be willing to bet my house on it, right there along with others.

So please, do us that favor, and clear out the pre-order queue!

Ready? Go!

[k9quaint]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

Diminish legal responsibility, and continue the illusion they are competent...

(Note: only *if that's the case, hypothetically speaking)

His post said NOTHING positive or otherwise about BFL's competency. He merely pointed out the fallacy of assuming a company is out of money, when they're clearly continuing operations, and forcing refunds on whiny little cunt nuggets like Xian.

Thank you.  It's insane to me that I literally pre-empted what I said with this:

I hate to belabor this point and add further tangential fuel to the fire, but I have a very simple question:

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Edit: removed circumstantial evidence for consistency's sake.

...yet people still will remove context and put their own around it to dilute, muddle, and derail the conversation.

UGH, hate having to repeat myself, but if you want to rehash your debunked positions, so be it.

More disinformation from ThatDGuy.
ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
I contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

...still?

Let it go, man.  We were way past that like yesterday.

No, you changed the subject to "market forces". Just because you refuse to address the situation of BFL finances does not make it disappear.
You have consistently misrepresented my positions in a transparent attempt to put words in my mouth. I did not expect better from you, unfortunately. I have had too much experience on these forums.

Your position in this thread has always been absurd on the border of idiotic. I have been very patient with you up to this point. I have attempted to explain reputational risk to you. I have demonstrated how BFL has many past claims that turned out to be either incorrect or untrue. I have shown that there is a mystery about how they are funding their operations, they claim it is not from pre-orders but there is no other source of income or investment to account for their operational funding.

Your willful ignorance and misquoting is tiresome. Time has told that BFL was the worst of the ASIC options. Merely holding the BTC instead of buying BFL would have seen a 10 fold increase in value. Buying Avalon would have seen even higher returns. Buying ASICMiner shares would have been higher still.
Time will tell as to how many and how much BFL's investors get screwed for.

[k9quaint]

Hand waving and poo-flinging

Oh look, wrenchmonkey is back after the last time I schooled him on this subject.
The press release claimed a private equity group had backed BFL. No names. GROUP, not solo angel investor like you claim.
If you actually have evidence that it was a solo angel that backed BFL, please enlighten us.

Currently, the only evidence is BFL's one time claim that a nameless private equity group backed them.

FYI, billionaires who run private equity groups don't give a crap about random forum posts on the internet.