Why QQ?

[k9quaint]

You're now asserting that BFL has the risk of imploding assuming a "mass of refund request" - i.e. Dogie's impossible idea.  i.e. the ludicrous hypothesis that I was pretty sure we stopped talking about 2 pages ago.

I was always saying it was not ludicrous, that it would not benefit BFL, and that your claims that a mass refund request would benefit BFL was what was absurd. I am still saying that. Your failure to examine the facts of the situation is why you are confused. Perhaps you should go back and read my posts again.

Not confused at all over here.  You're more than capable of going back through pages 1-2 of this thread to see plenty of people either commenting directly about how asinine the "plan" was or indirectly through their responses.  

When you, or anyone else, is ready to address this discrete question, I'm all ears:

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

I've asked a few times, and gotten emotional responses and added context to it instead of answers.  If there is no real answer to it, then it can be reasonably assumed that the company is doing fine.

You question was answered. You refuse to read it. However, I can paste it hundreds of times without too much effort. I will paste the response again until you either read it or have it read to you.

More disinformation from ThatDGuy.
ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
I contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

11 months of product development and a full company with offices paid for with what money? They discontinued their FPGA sales and they were never that profitable so it can't be from that. Nobody has owned up to investing in BFL. BFL has never identified any investment made in them other than a cryptic message about support from a "private equity group" that has never been mentioned since (probably for legal reasons).

[ThatDGuy]

...still?

Let it go, man.  We were way past that like yesterday.

No, you changed the subject to "market forces". Just because you refuse to address the situation of BFL finances does not make it disappear.
You have consistently misrepresented my positions in a transparent attempt to put words in my mouth. I did not expect better from you, unfortunately. I have had too much experience on these forums.

Your position in this thread has always been absurd on the border of idiotic. I have been very patient with you up to this point. I have attempted to explain reputational risk to you. I have demonstrated how BFL has many past claims that turned out to be either incorrect or untrue. I have shown that there is a mystery about how they are funding their operations, they claim it is not from pre-orders but there is no other source of income or investment to account for their operational funding.

Your willful ignorance and misquoting is tiresome. Time has told that BFL was the worst of the ASIC options. Merely holding the BTC instead of buying BFL would have seen a 10 fold increase in value. Buying Avalon would have seen even higher returns. Buying ASICMiner shares would have been higher still.
Time will tell as to how many and how much BFL's investors get screwed for.

It's like somewhere you missed the fact that this entire thread is idiotic.  The premise is absurd.

You've already attempted to fabricate parts of my post history for your own advantage once and I called you on it respectfully.  

Keep on talking in "would haves" and analyzing BFL's finances.  Time will continue to tell, and the present is speaking loud and clearly right now.  One of us is listening.

[ThatDGuy]

You're now asserting that BFL has the risk of imploding assuming a "mass of refund request" - i.e. Dogie's impossible idea.  i.e. the ludicrous hypothesis that I was pretty sure we stopped talking about 2 pages ago.

I was always saying it was not ludicrous, that it would not benefit BFL, and that your claims that a mass refund request would benefit BFL was what was absurd. I am still saying that. Your failure to examine the facts of the situation is why you are confused. Perhaps you should go back and read my posts again.

Not confused at all over here.  You're more than capable of going back through pages 1-2 of this thread to see plenty of people either commenting directly about how asinine the "plan" was or indirectly through their responses.  

When you, or anyone else, is ready to address this discrete question, I'm all ears:

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

I've asked a few times, and gotten emotional responses and added context to it instead of answers.  If there is no real answer to it, then it can be reasonably assumed that the company is doing fine.

You question was answered. You refuse to read it. However, I can paste it hundreds of times without too much effort. I will paste the response again until you either read it or have it read to you.

More disinformation from ThatDGuy.
ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
I contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

11 months of product development and a full company with offices paid for with what money? They discontinued their FPGA sales and they were never that profitable so it can't be from that. Nobody has owned up to investing in BFL. BFL has never identified any investment made in them other than a cryptic message about support from a "private equity group" that has never been mentioned since (probably for legal reasons).

This is just getting embarrassing for you, now. 

I don't know how to explain better the definition of the word discrete.

[k9quaint]

...still?

Let it go, man.  We were way past that like yesterday.

No, you changed the subject to "market forces". Just because you refuse to address the situation of BFL finances does not make it disappear.
You have consistently misrepresented my positions in a transparent attempt to put words in my mouth. I did not expect better from you, unfortunately. I have had too much experience on these forums.

Your position in this thread has always been absurd on the border of idiotic. I have been very patient with you up to this point. I have attempted to explain reputational risk to you. I have demonstrated how BFL has many past claims that turned out to be either incorrect or untrue. I have shown that there is a mystery about how they are funding their operations, they claim it is not from pre-orders but there is no other source of income or investment to account for their operational funding.

Your willful ignorance and misquoting is tiresome. Time has told that BFL was the worst of the ASIC options. Merely holding the BTC instead of buying BFL would have seen a 10 fold increase in value. Buying Avalon would have seen even higher returns. Buying ASICMiner shares would have been higher still.
Time will tell as to how many and how much BFL's investors get screwed for.

It's like somewhere you missed the fact that this entire thread is idiotic.  The premise is absurd.

You've already attempted to fabricate parts of my post history for your own advantage once and I called you on it respectfully.  

Keep on talking in "would haves" and analyzing BFL's finances.  Time will continue to tell, and the present is speaking loud and clearly right now.  One of us is listening.

One day you will read the following, then you won't have an excuse to call the notion of a wave of refunds absurd anymore.

ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
I contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

11 months of product development and a full company with offices paid for with what money? They discontinued their FPGA sales and they were never that profitable so it can't be from that. Nobody has owned up to investing in BFL. BFL has never identified any investment made in them other than a cryptic message about support from a "private equity group" that has never been mentioned since (probably for legal reasons).

[ThatDGuy]

...still?

Let it go, man.  We were way past that like yesterday.

No, you changed the subject to "market forces". Just because you refuse to address the situation of BFL finances does not make it disappear.
You have consistently misrepresented my positions in a transparent attempt to put words in my mouth. I did not expect better from you, unfortunately. I have had too much experience on these forums.

Your position in this thread has always been absurd on the border of idiotic. I have been very patient with you up to this point. I have attempted to explain reputational risk to you. I have demonstrated how BFL has many past claims that turned out to be either incorrect or untrue. I have shown that there is a mystery about how they are funding their operations, they claim it is not from pre-orders but there is no other source of income or investment to account for their operational funding.

Your willful ignorance and misquoting is tiresome. Time has told that BFL was the worst of the ASIC options. Merely holding the BTC instead of buying BFL would have seen a 10 fold increase in value. Buying Avalon would have seen even higher returns. Buying ASICMiner shares would have been higher still.
Time will tell as to how many and how much BFL's investors get screwed for.

It's like somewhere you missed the fact that this entire thread is idiotic.  The premise is absurd.

You've already attempted to fabricate parts of my post history for your own advantage once and I called you on it respectfully.  

Keep on talking in "would haves" and analyzing BFL's finances.  Time will continue to tell, and the present is speaking loud and clearly right now.  One of us is listening.

One day you will read the following, then you won't have an excuse to call the notion of a wave of refunds absurd anymore.

ThatDGuy claimed that $5 million dollars in refunds would benefit BFL.
I contend that they do not have their pre-order money in escrow as they claim.
I would bet that $5 million in refund requests would bankrupt BFL (assuming there is even $5 million in their order book).

11 months of product development and a full company with offices paid for with what money? They discontinued their FPGA sales and they were never that profitable so it can't be from that. Nobody has owned up to investing in BFL. BFL has never identified any investment made in them other than a cryptic message about support from a "private equity group" that has never been mentioned since (probably for legal reasons).

So now you're resorting to prophesying? I thought that was Puerto's gig?

Why are you still referencing posts from page 2, when it has nothing to do with the question posed?  Posed specifically to remove the ability for muddling, yet you are?

[k9quaint]

If you find a way to clear the queue for us, PLEASE let me know, as I'll place roughly $18,000 of Jalapeno orders, IMMEDIATELY upon learning that there's no longer any backlog. I guarantee you that I am not the only one. I'd be willing to bet my house on it, right there along with others.

So please, do us that favor, and clear out the pre-order queue!

This is what's known as magic as opposed to market forces here.  Beware using such logic.

Look at how desperate ThatDGuy is to demonstrate that a wave of refund requests would help BFL.
DESPERATE. Even the thought of such an action has him replying to every single post on the subject.
Derailing discussions. Refusal to consider BFL's history. Blind allegiance to BFL's own statements.

Hmm, it might be time to consider Cui Bono since ThatDGuy's posts are now entirely devoid of content.

[ThatDGuy]

If you find a way to clear the queue for us, PLEASE let me know, as I'll place roughly $18,000 of Jalapeno orders, IMMEDIATELY upon learning that there's no longer any backlog. I guarantee you that I am not the only one. I'd be willing to bet my house on it, right there along with others.

So please, do us that favor, and clear out the pre-order queue!

This is what's known as magic as opposed to market forces here.  Beware using such logic.

Look at how desperate ThatDGuy is to demonstrate that a wave of refund requests would help BFL.
DESPERATE. Even the thought of such an action has him replying to every single post on the subject.
Derailing discussions. Refusal to consider BFL's history. Blind allegiance to BFL's own statements.

Hmm, it might be time to consider Cui Bono since ThatDGuy's posts are now entirely devoid of content.

//Begin sarcasm
Super desperate here, you found me out.

On no, what will my ASICMINER dividends look like next week if my grand plan doesn't pan out.
//End sarcasm

I encourage anyone to look through my post history aside from two threads where I asked honest questions from an unbiased consumer's point of view, and presented my perspective based on the way the market is currently functioning.  I have literally nothing to hide and stand beside all of it when read in context.  I know context isn't your strong suit but am confident that the majority of reasonable readers understand how it works.

I thought it was worthwhile to make wrenchmonkey aware that he may well be considered a magician on this particular post.  That's pretty cool, for him.

[k9quaint]

If you find a way to clear the queue for us, PLEASE let me know, as I'll place roughly $18,000 of Jalapeno orders, IMMEDIATELY upon learning that there's no longer any backlog. I guarantee you that I am not the only one. I'd be willing to bet my house on it, right there along with others.

So please, do us that favor, and clear out the pre-order queue!

This is what's known as magic as opposed to market forces here.  Beware using such logic.

Look at how desperate ThatDGuy is to demonstrate that a wave of refund requests would help BFL.
DESPERATE. Even the thought of such an action has him replying to every single post on the subject.
Derailing discussions. Refusal to consider BFL's history. Blind allegiance to BFL's own statements.

Hmm, it might be time to consider Cui Bono since ThatDGuy's posts are now entirely devoid of content.

//Begin sarcasm
Super desperate here, you found me out.

On no, what will my ASICMINER dividends look like next week if my grand plan doesn't pan out.
//End sarcasm

I encourage anyone to look through my post history aside from two threads where I asked honest questions from an unbiased consumer's point of view, and presented my perspective based on the way the market is currently functioning.  I have literally nothing to hide and stand beside all of it when read in context.  I know context isn't your strong suit but am confident that the majority of reasonable readers understand how it works.

I thought it was worthwhile to make wrenchmonkey aware that he may well be considered a magician on this particular post.  That's pretty cool, for him.

You asked the questions and ignored or misrepresented the answers.

People have had legitimate questions about BFL's financial situation for the last 8 months.
IRRELEVANT you say, they have infinite money as far as you care.
Since they have infinite money, they can never go bankrupt and in this magical world of infinite money people canceling BFL orders would indeed benefit them.
Your premise is absurd and incompatible with reality. No wonder nobody can resolve things to your satisfaction. There must be a shortage of unicorns or something.

[PuertoLibre]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

[Speculation]

It would be Liability.

Keeping old orders on the books is a liability. Replacing old orders with new orders eliminates the long term liability. There is no incentive in such a scenario to treat people decently. The worse you treat them the better off you are.

It also allows you an opportunity to change your prices on old orders. Same hardware, new price.

---------------

Only if a person is simple minded enough would they not see that the chessboard can be reset if your are astute enough. And if you plug in the scenario I am depicting it makes perfect sense why various actors are taking the attitudes they are assuming. If you think in a simple manner, then a person wouldn't understand.

Keep in mind a money printing machine is being sold. The customer can be treated like walking shit and it won't matter. Tommorrow they will be right back at the order window.

---------------

The only scenario where such a strategy fails is when you:
A) Aren't able to deliver.
A1) Are able to deliver but not capable of doing it while the customer see's a profitable scenario.
A2) Are able to deliver but the date that you deliver is too late in the profitability curve and your customer never sees a satisfactory profit...thereby limiting future sales of your own product. (Your loss, IS my loss)

B) Are sued to such an extent by old customers that remain, that it starts a collapsing precedent.
B1) Cause a chain reaction of backlash by general customer dissatisfaction. (Customer comes back to the order window, but out of spite or irate sentiments, causes new problems which may eventually drown the company)

C) Another competitor delivers similar products with similar capabilities, making your own products less attractive.
C1) Another competitor saturates the market with their own products by being capable of meeting the demand for money printing machines.
C2) A competitor provides an upgrade path through their products. Leading the attractiveness of your own products to be marginalized.

D) <Etc>

[PuertoLibre]

Changes that have occurred since October 2012:

BFL has lost,

--They lost 1Gh/w (proposed) advantage.
--They lost their speedy delivery promise.
--They lost the respect of a portion of their product(s) user base.
--They have increased their prices while reducing the performance on their various product lines.
--They have lost their size advantage in an ever increasing manner across their product lines.
--They have reduced the frequency of communication with their customers and potential customers.

etc.

[dogie]

As long as you cling to the idea that BFL has unlimited money, you will never see them at risk of imploding.
Clearly you believe they have segregated all of their customer orders in an escrow account and spawned by magic the operating funds for a 20 person company (plus consultants) over the last 11 months.
Here is Inaba/Josh saying back in July 27, 2012 that the BFL singles were being prepped to ship and mini-rigs were being assembled.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90333.msg994223#msg994223
Clearly, their business plans at that time did not include an additional 10 months of operating costs. Where did that money come from?
No venture capital group or private equity group has claimed to have invested in BFL. No angels have claimed them either.

There's my little liar again, k9quaint.

What our dear friend k9 has neglected to mention in the above quote is that:

1) I was not working for BFL at the time.
2) I was referring to the FPGA equipment, which was in fact shipping.

But don't let context, facts and honesty deter your ranting K9.  Just keep piling up the BS.

You clearly don't give a shit about us peasants, the common people. But let me ask you this, how scared are you about the FCC? Should we find out? Yeah thats right, you better rush that paperwork through and have a good reason for not filing it.

[ThatDGuy]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

[Speculation]

It would be Liability.

Keeping old orders on the books is a liability. Replacing old orders with new orders eliminates the long term liability. There is no incentive in such a scenario to treat people decently. The worse you treat them the better off you are.

It also allows you an opportunity to change your prices on old orders. Same hardware, new price.

---------------

Only if a person is simple minded enough would they not see that the chessboard can be reset if your are astute enough. And if you plug in the scenario I am depicting it makes perfect sense why various actors are taking the attitudes they are assuming. If you think in a simple manner, then a person wouldn't understand.

Keep in mind a money printing machine is being sold. The customer can be treated like walking shit and it won't matter. Tommorrow they will be right back at the order window.

Thank you for an answer to the actual question.  So is BFL, by that explanation, treating people decently?

Keep in mind a money printing machine is being sold. The customer can be treated like walking shit and it won't matter. Tommorrow they will be right back at the order window.

Thanks also for writing this: a.k.a. summarizing the law of supply and demand and how you perceive it applying to BFL's situation currently.

The only scenario where such a strategy fails is when you:
A) Aren't able to deliver.

From my perspective, A) is already happening.  While I appreciate the detail you've laid out with the follow-up points, I don't think they'll play out in quite that trickle-down manner suggested given the aforementioned law of supply and demand.

History will ultimately tell one way or the other.  In the mean time, as always, I recommend everyone perform their due diligence and make educated decisions.

[k9quaint]

It's irrelevant to the market right now.  You choose different proof.

As I said, whenever you're ready to stop talking about the past, either in this thread or in the history of ASICs and start looking at what's going on right now, I'm ready to listen.  I'm sorry the present doesn't line up with how you wanted it to.

You're just babbling now.  I'm sorry you got so worked up and emotional about all of this.

It must be so nice for you to just dismiss all things inconvenient to your argument and then declare victory.

According to ThatDGuy:
Would a mass of refunds be harmful or beneficial to BFL? IGNORE BFL'S FINANCIAL SITUATION COMPLETELY!!!

Your position is absurd. It has only grown more so. You are approaching Wrenchmonkey status.
Keep derailing this thread and soon you will be eligible for BFL "charity donations". Cui bono indeed.

[chanson]

JUNE 15

R-DAY

Change to the 14th. You want to hit them on a Friday, = they know about the tsunami but can't do anything over the weekend to move funds. Gives time for it to build momentum.

Nah. It will take them two weeks to make it that far into their email box. In fact, if you request a refund now, they might just find out by early July.

[k9quaint]

JUNE 15

R-DAY

Change to the 14th. You want to hit them on a Friday, = they know about the tsunami but can't do anything over the weekend to move funds. Gives time for it to build momentum.

Nah. It will take them two weeks to make it that far into their email box. In fact, if you request a refund now, they might just find out by early July.

Yeah, there is literally no way you could get the refunds to hit all at once. BFL would drag their feet processing them and you couldn't reach enough of the pre-order investors to coordinate a single salvo of refunds. A thread full of people who have canceled their orders with BFL would be statistically interesting, but it would be impossible to know what percentage of orders that thread represents. There could still be 90 days of backlog even after a thread with 100 cancellations in it.

According to the data we have,  the lion's share of pre-orders (dollar value) is in mini-rigs. If that slice of the order book vanishes due to pre-orders (or never existed in the first place), that would put the screws to BFL. If KNCMiner delivers, expect every real mini-rig order to jump ship since KNCMiner is claiming twice the bang for the buck that BFL is claiming. BFL really needs to get their mini-rig operational and ship the first one.

The next month or so should be very interesting.

[ThatDGuy]

If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?

Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ?

I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects.

I'm talking about at a strictly financial level:

If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back?

Diminish legal responsibility, and continue the illusion they are competent...

(Note: only *if that's the case, hypothetically speaking)

For what it's worth I think BFL are doing the best they currently can. It's better they ship something than nothing.

What I don't get is the overtones of arrogance when they've demonstrated their ability to consistently miss deadlines and make mistakes, there should really be some evidence of humility on their part. Sme people never want to admit they were wrong, or apologise, but in the face of what's happened a humble response is warranted. The best idea is to bulk chip all and open source pcb design to the community, I actually suggested this in the week before they made that announcemt, but the bridges appear to have already been burnt, when the could have swallowed pride and opened up to some talented community members ready and willing to help!

When I originally posted in response, everything under the parenthetical section wasn't there yet, so I apologize for not being able to respond more fully.

I am in complete agreement with you on:

For what it's worth I think BFL are doing the best they currently can. It's better they ship something than nothing.

As for the other section, I have not personally been involved in said displays of arrogance.  Having read through some of the history it is apparent why people are very upset.  I do genuinely sympathize with those in that situation.

That said, I have seen the reactions of those people first-hand in just two of these threads and reading countless others.  It becomes quickly apparent that emotions are intrinsically tied with the responses of those who have had their bridges burned.  My milieu presents me with an opportunity to express what the 3-4 month miner and current consumer of ASICs perceives in the market.

Even in the process of presenting this view, I've been labelled as

• shill
• desperate
• believing magic is responsible for current market forces

So, while I am in no way acting as an apologist for anyone's behavior - I can absolutely see what kind of response can be expected from slighted ASIC customers of ~1 year+

[k9quaint]

As for the other section, I have not personally been involved in said displays of arrogance.  Having read through some of the history it is apparent why people are very upset.  I do genuinely sympathize with those in that situation.

That said, I have seen the reactions of those people first-hand in just two of these threads and reading countless others.  It becomes quickly apparent that emotions are intrinsically tied with the responses of those who have had their bridges burned.  My milieu presents me with an opportunity to express what the 3-4 month miner and current consumer of ASICs perceives in the market.

Even in the process of presenting this view, I've been labelled as

• shill
• desperate
• believing magic is responsible for current market forces

So, while I am in no way acting as an apologist for anyone's behavior - I can absolutely see what kind of response can be expected from slighted ASIC customers of ~1 year+

If only you had done actual research on BFL, people might have more patience with you. You say you are aware of the history and even read through some of it. Perhaps you should take a few days to actually educate yourself before you declare things to be "absurd" or "trolling". If the veterans of the forums are short with you it is because your type is a dime a dozen here. Your type shows up and wonders why regurgitation of the BFL party line is met with hostility. Dismissing all evidence that does not originate with BFL is certainly not going to endear you either.

[ThatDGuy]

It's irrelevant to the market right now.  You choose different proof.

As I said, whenever you're ready to stop talking about the past, either in this thread or in the history of ASICs and start looking at what's going on right now, I'm ready to listen.  I'm sorry the present doesn't line up with how you wanted it to.

You're just babbling now.  I'm sorry you got so worked up and emotional about all of this.

It must be so nice for you to just dismiss all things inconvenient to your argument and then declare victory.

According to ThatDGuy:
Would a mass of refunds be harmful or beneficial to BFL? IGNORE BFL'S FINANCIAL SITUATION COMPLETELY!!!

Your position is absurd. It has only grown more so. You are approaching Wrenchmonkey status.
Keep derailing this thread and soon you will be eligible for BFL "charity donations". Cui bono indeed.

So, you're still talking about this? AND adding more conspiratorial plans to try and tie everything together?

I hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but the discussion moved on without you.  When you're ready to talk at the big boys and girls table, please let us know.

Your other post here that is letting go of pages-old tangents is a great step!

JUNE 15

R-DAY

Change to the 14th. You want to hit them on a Friday, = they know about the tsunami but can't do anything over the weekend to move funds. Gives time for it to build momentum.

Nah. It will take them two weeks to make it that far into their email box. In fact, if you request a refund now, they might just find out by early July.

Yeah, there is literally no way you could get the refunds to hit all at once. BFL would drag their feet processing them and you couldn't reach enough of the pre-order investors to coordinate a single salvo of refunds. A thread full of people who have canceled their orders with BFL would be statistically interesting, but it would be impossible to know what percentage of orders that thread represents. There could still be 90 days of backlog even after a thread with 100 cancellations in it.

According to the data we have,  the lion's share of pre-orders (dollar value) is in mini-rigs. If that slice of the order book vanishes due to pre-orders (or never existed in the first place), that would put the screws to BFL. If KNCMiner delivers, expect every real mini-rig order to jump ship since KNCMiner is claiming twice the bang for the buck that BFL is claiming. BFL really needs to get their mini-rig operational and ship the first one.

The next month or so should be very interesting.

[k9quaint]

As for the other section, I have not personally been involved in said displays of arrogance.  Having read through some of the history it is apparent why people are very upset.  I do genuinely sympathize with those in that situation.

That said, I have seen the reactions of those people first-hand in just two of these threads and reading countless others.  It becomes quickly apparent that emotions are intrinsically tied with the responses of those who have had their bridges burned.  My milieu presents me with an opportunity to express what the 3-4 month miner and current consumer of ASICs perceives in the market.

Even in the process of presenting this view, I've been labelled as

• shill
• desperate
• believing magic is responsible for current market forces

So, while I am in no way acting as an apologist for anyone's behavior - I can absolutely see what kind of response can be expected from slighted ASIC customers of ~1 year+

If only you had done actual research on BFL, people might have more patience with you. You say you are aware of the history and even read through some of it. Perhaps you should take a few days to actually educate yourself before you declare things to be "absurd" or "trolling". If the veterans of the forums are short with you it is because your type is a dime a dozen here. Your type shows up and wonders why regurgitation of the BFL party line is met with hostility. Dismissing all evidence that does not originate with BFL is certainly not going to endear you either.

I hate to burst your bubble, but I have little desire to be endeared to you.  Actually none, or negative desire if we really want to be specific.

OP's idea was, and is, absurd.  Zero "veterans" of the thread have been short with me aside from you, and "short" is hardly the word to describe what you've been typing.  Dribble, babble? I don't even know any more.

I'm not trolling any company line.  I'm not a type.  Continue to try and fabricate associations between me and a company all you want, but you're just flailing - and flailing poorly, at that.

Name:   ThatDGuy
Posts:   237
Position:   Full Member
Date Registered:   April 25, 2013, 04:01:07 PM
Last Active:   Today at 08:35:26 PM

Sorry, but you are a type. Uneducated, unaware, wide-eyed at bitcoin, and running wild with confirmation bias.
You got called out for not understanding what a hypothetical is after insulting someone for rightfully pointing out it's absurdity.
You didn't realize that BFL could not actually have 100s of TH/s of mining equipment.
You didn't realize the composition of BFL's order book.
You have little to no idea of the history of BFL, you only know that there is hostility surrounding them.
I have doubts the OP *could* organize a mass refund, but I have no doubt that one could appear and would be extremely harmful to BFL's business. KNCMiner's product has twice the bang for the buck and is looming on the horizon. If KNCMiner delivers, BFL's order book will vanish because people would rather get twice as much for their money.
You backpedal and derail discussions.
You willfully ignore key areas of the discussion because they are inconvenient to your argument.

Put a little more effort into your subject before you start spouting off on it. Don't cherry pick data that fits your argument and ignore data that does not.

Your original point that a mass refund would help BFL remains idiotic. Your defense of it is dogmatic. Saying that  you are after some charity money from BFL was sarcasm, you would not be worth it.

[k9quaint]

Look up hypothetical, and maybe take a nap to calm down? I don't know, running out of suggestions for you.

Let me link to you the message in this thread where you declare you don't care about the current state of BFL's finances while discussing the effects a mass of refunds would have on BFL's finances.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226608.msg2397664#msg2397664
I will also link the content of that post here, so you cannot misrepresent it.

Explain where their operating capital for the last 11 months and the next few weeks came from.

Don't care.  Not their accountant.

Talk about willful ignorance + confirmation bias. Classic case thereof.

I already linked the wikipedia page explaining hypothetical logic and the fallacy that you were engaged in.
I'll just add that to the list of things you didn't read or didn't understand.