Why QQ?

[wrenchmonkey]

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

I quite enjoy when this fact gets brought up after BFL's monkey runs off on diatribes about how they created an ASIC. 

I quite enjoy when the trolls grasp at smaller and smaller straws, when their arguments get completely destroyed by facts and logic.

You people just keep piling on more and more totally irrelevant nonsense. Anybody who has ever run a company that does any serious manufacturing knows that sub-contracting is part of the biz. BFL started out doing FPGA miners. They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

In fact, the MAJORITY of products out there are never designed, soup-to-nuts, in-house. This is a well-accepted fact in virtually EVERY industry in the world, and it's why we have a world economy in the first place. Clothing designers don't weave their own textiles. Apple doesn't build computers or iPads.  General construction-contractors don't install wiring and plumbing. Network engineers don't build their own switches, etc, etc, etc. Keep graspin', maybe you'll happen upon something substantial to hold onto... Then again, probably not. 

[dropt]

[shill bullshit]

They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

[more shill bullshit]

Oh, so then they were lying when they posted "Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design [...]" and "The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design."?

Sounds to me like they are ASIC designers.  Or maybe they're a bunch of fucking liars?




Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

[k9quaint]

[shill bullshit]

They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

[more shill bullshit]

Oh, so then they were lying when they posted "Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design [...]" and "The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design."?

Sounds to me like they are ASIC designers.  Or maybe they're a bunch of fucking liars?

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

NO FAIRS! WE CALLED NO FACTSIES!!! 

[wrenchmonkey]

[shill bullshit]

They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

[more shill bullshit]

Oh, so then they were lying when they posted "Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design [...]" and "The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design."?

Sounds to me like they are ASIC designers.  Or maybe they're a bunch of fucking liars?




Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

[dropt]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

No, serious question. Are you saying that industry leaders are precluded from subcontracting? Apple will be totally bummed to hear this...

[k9quaint]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

Also, dropt, not that it's really relevant to your inane argument, but what's the origin of the cited article? Was the article written by BFL? It appears to be 3rd party statements you're nitpicking, which even further weakens your point. Regardless of whether you ACTUALLY believe that industry leaders aren't allowed to do any subcontracting.

[k9quaint]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

You can't be an industry leader if you don't do any work in that industry. BFL does no actual work in ASICs if they subcontract out all of the design. Therefore they cannot be industry leaders in ASIC design.

So simple a 5 year old could understand it. Too bad you are not allowed within 200 feet of schools or you could get one to explain it to you

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

You can't be an industry leader if you don't do any work in that industry. BFL does no actual work in ASICs if they subcontract out all of the design. Therefore they cannot be industry leaders in ASIC design.

So simple a 5 year old could understand it. Too bad you are not allowed within 200 feet of schools or you could get one to explain it to you

It didn't say they were industry leaders in ASIC design. It said semiconductor design, and it appears to be a statement by a 3rd party. They're clearly industry leaders in ASIC mining hardware design, or at least they were at the time of the article's publication.

Once again, are market leaders allowed to subcontract or not?

[k9quaint]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

You can't be an industry leader if you don't do any work in that industry. BFL does no actual work in ASICs if they subcontract out all of the design. Therefore they cannot be industry leaders in ASIC design.

So simple a 5 year old could understand it. Too bad you are not allowed within 200 feet of schools or you could get one to explain it to you

It didn't say they were industry leaders in ASIC design. It said semiconductor design, and it appears to be a statement by a 3rd party. They're clearly industry leaders in ASIC mining hardware design, or at least they were at the time of the article's publication.

Once again, are market leaders allowed to subcontract or not?

You must do work in an industry to "lead" it. BFL does no work in ASIC or semiconductor design. The people who actually designed the ASIC could be called leaders in ASIC mining hardware (if they actually lead the industry instead of Avalon & ASICMiner), but none of those people work for BFL.

You should deflect somewhere else. This one is a dead end for you.

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

You can't be an industry leader if you don't do any work in that industry. BFL does no actual work in ASICs if they subcontract out all of the design. Therefore they cannot be industry leaders in ASIC design.

So simple a 5 year old could understand it. Too bad you are not allowed within 200 feet of schools or you could get one to explain it to you

It didn't say they were industry leaders in ASIC design. It said semiconductor design, and it appears to be a statement by a 3rd party. They're clearly industry leaders in ASIC mining hardware design, or at least they were at the time of the article's publication.

Once again, are market leaders allowed to subcontract or not?

You must do work in an industry to "lead" it. BFL does no work in ASIC or semiconductor design. The people who actually designed the ASIC could be called leaders in ASIC mining hardware (if they actually lead the industry instead of Avalon & ASICMiner), but none of those people work for BFL.

You should deflect somewhere else. This one is a dead end for you.

I'm not deflecting. Let me get this straight. You're saying that people who subcontract don't count as part of an industry?

[k9quaint]

I'm not deflecting. Let me get this straight. You're saying that people who subcontract don't count as part of an industry?

This statement is true.
If I subcontract out to Volkswagen for 100% of the work designing and manufacturing my automobile, then I am not a leader in the auto industry. I merely bought a car that was the color I wanted.

This is the 5th time this question has been answered for you. Get someone with a double digit IQ to explain it to you.
Or tell BFL to hire a better shill.

[wrenchmonkey]

I'm not deflecting. Let me get this straight. You're saying that people who subcontract don't count as part of an industry?

This statement is true.
If I subcontract out to Volkswagen for 100% of the work designing and manufacturing my automobile, then I am not a leader in the auto industry. I merely bought a car that was the color I wanted.

This is the 5th time this question has been answered for you. Get someone with a double digit IQ to explain it to you.
Or tell BFL to hire a better shill.

No, but if you subcontract with Boeing and Volkswagen to design a turbine-engine-powered car that can break the current world speed record, and you call your car company "K9 Motors International" and you pre-sell a million units, and it drives the entire automotive industry toward modeling your idea, and utilizing turbine engines in their vehicles, even before you deliver your first unit, "K9 Motors International" can claim to be a leader in the turbine-powered automobile industry.

Neeeeext!

[wrenchmonkey]

Really not the same. Apple designs a product, its specifications and lays out everything. Someone else manufactures it.

Whose processors are they usin' these days?

[dropt]

EDIT: But what's the origin of the cited article? Was the article written by BFL? It appears to be 3rd party statements you're nitpicking, which even further weakens your point.

They're the words of BFL.  See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.0

I chose not to pick on the fact that they're a "market" leader, because it's too vague.  One could argue that the market they're referring to is the bitcoin mining market, in which case I'd concede that it was a quasi-truth at the time.  On the other hand, if the argument made is that they're a leader in SHA-256 hardware design, I'm sure if one spent the time it could easily be dismissed as a fallacy.  To better put it into perspective, compare ASICMiner with BFL.  It's my understanding that friedcat et al. designed their own chip, had it manufactured and have manufactured enough hardware to put double digit terrahash numbers onto the network.  I don't think it's necessary to pick apart Inaba's statements claiming that BFL has production facilities that dwarf any competitor when they have shipped near nothing in comparison to AM.

[k9quaint]

I'm not deflecting. Let me get this straight. You're saying that people who subcontract don't count as part of an industry?

This statement is true.
If I subcontract out to Volkswagen for 100% of the work designing and manufacturing my automobile, then I am not a leader in the auto industry. I merely bought a car that was the color I wanted.

This is the 5th time this question has been answered for you. Get someone with a double digit IQ to explain it to you.
Or tell BFL to hire a better shill.

No, but if you subcontract with Boeing and Volkswagen to design a turbine-engine-powered car that can break the current world speed record, and you call your car company "K9 Motors International" and you pre-sell a million units, and it drives the entire automotive industry toward modeling your idea, and utilizing turbine engines in their vehicles, even before you deliver your first unit, "K9 Motors International" can claim to be a leader in the turbine-powered automobile industry.

Neeeeext!

Nice analogy fail. You twisted the facts just enough to make it sound almost plausible.
You earned your shill "donation" today (you are organized as a 503c right?).

I would have to claim to be an industry leader in turbine design to have lied like BFL did.

Let me remind you what they said:

Oh, so then they were lying when they posted "Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design [...]" and "The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design."?

Sounds to me like they are ASIC designers.  Or maybe they're a bunch of fucking liars?

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

I love how the BFL folks are afraid to attach their last names to their statements. Nick W. and Nasser G. So shady. 

[a1phanumrc]

Really not the same. Apple designs a product, its specifications and lays out everything. Someone else manufactures it.

Whose processors are they usin' these days?

For what? The iPhone? That's an A6 designed by Apple but manufactured by Samsung.

Or do you mean for computers? Those are Intel.

[dropt]

Really not the same. Apple designs a product, its specifications and lays out everything. Someone else manufactures it.

Whose processors are they usin' these days?

This is a poor example you've offered.  Apple is definitely a leader in semiconductor purchases, and it could be successfully argued that they're a semiconductor design outfit as they purchased PA Fab in 2008 (See: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-9926461-37.html).  So you could say that Apple could claim to be a market leader in ASIC design, but they don't, because they aren't. 

[k9quaint]

Really not the same. Apple designs a product, its specifications and lays out everything. Someone else manufactures it.

Whose processors are they usin' these days?

Wrenchmonkey's mental gymnastics would score better if he didn't land on his face with every post.