Why QQ?

[PuertoLibre]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

No, serious question. Are you saying that industry leaders are precluded from subcontracting? Apple will be totally bummed to hear this...

BFL is an industry leader?

What does that mean for Avalon or ASICMiner?

Industry PimP?

[wrenchmonkey]

To be a market leader, you have to have in house engineers who know what they are doing.

Says who? Are you adding subjective criterion as to what defines a market leader, or are you laying out a roadmap? To be a market leader (at least temporariliy) you only have to be the first to bring a certain type of product to that market. Nothing more.

It seems that you want to drag your personal opinion of best practices on how to sustain leadership, and how to have the most 'synergistic' company, and blah, blah, blah, blah. Typical of somebody who reckons he's got all the answers about how to run a business, but has no real-world experience in doing so.

Like Avalon. (See that anooyying fact?)
In this way, the products and people can come together under one roof or one unified management and they products issues are resolved quickly and on time.

Avalon started out as a follower, back when BFL was the leader, and they later were able to move into a position of leadership. Your hindsight goggles are working marvelously. Avalon is a leader NOW, BFL was the leader THEN. Do you not see how you're having an entirely different conversation than the one at hand? We're talking about what BFL was at the time of the press release, not what they or Avalon have become since that time.

Not by paying Bob in France who only works on Monday and Tuesdays, but hes occupied elsewhere and therefore must attend to his priority projects. Or working as a possible bank teller (no, this parody is very much not a joke).

And yet they managed to assert themselves as a leader, and totally shift the direction of the entire bitcoin mining hardware industry, by doing it the way that you apparently reckon that you 'can't do that'. 

I know, facts bother the mind of a shill. I should know, I am a Master BFL Shill myself.

WHAT FACTS? All you've presented is more opinion (with the benefit of selective hindsight) on how they SHOULD have done things. Not on how they actually managed to do it.

We're not discussing the various ways they COULD HAVE done things differently, and perhaps REMAINED the leader, we're discussing how they started out AS the leader.

Take your roadmap for success, and go do it yourself, if you think you've got all the answers.

[wrenchmonkey]

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

I quite enjoy when this fact gets brought up after BFL's monkey runs off on diatribes about how they created an ASIC.  

I quite enjoy when the trolls grasp at smaller and smaller straws, when their arguments get completely destroyed by facts and logic.

That like me paying an olympic runner to run in my race. Then state on the record that I am the fastest in the world!

Small details....you know....small details....

More like Honda paying Nicky Hayden to race their motorcycles, and then declaring themselves to be a leader in motorcycle racing.

Thats what a sponsor does. They don't hide the company or people that make things happen. In fact, often they tout it.

But I assume this small argument went right over your capacity as a human being.

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back [of your head], it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes, and motorsports are a public spectacle, whereas intellectual property tends to be a bit more guarded. 

[k9quaint]

And this question was so precious that I thought it deserved its own special post
Q:

How do you lead the markets in microprocessor design and offer consulting services in semiconductor design without having any ASIC engineers?

A: By subcontracting out the design.

You do not lead the markets in microprocessor design if you pay someone else to do the design for you. The people you paid for the design might lead the markets, but you are just a customer passing off someone else's expertise as your own.

[PuertoLibre]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

Also, dropt, not that it's really relevant to your inane argument, but what's the origin of the cited article? Was the article written by BFL? It appears to be 3rd party statements you're nitpicking, which even further weakens your point. Regardless of whether you ACTUALLY believe that industry leaders aren't allowed to do any subcontracting.

Lets put it this way, Josh has often made the point himself. (In his numerous excuses and delays)

Because they subcontracted they had less control over the schedules and often had to wait in line to get their own project done.

Therefore, the subcontracting is why June and July Jalepeno's (Bitforce 5) have only recently shipped. Almost a year later from the first pre-orders. (Rather than 2 months after the first pre-order)

Everyone else, had close ties to their manufacturing process and/or engineers. So weekends probably didn't matter.

Fair enough? (In other words are you willing (yet) to accept this reality?)

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

No, serious question. Are you saying that industry leaders are precluded from subcontracting? Apple will be totally bummed to hear this...

BFL is an industry leader?

WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS. Are you retarded? We're talking about the state of things as they were at the time of the news article in question.

There's currently no clear-cut leader, although I think we all agree that BFL is falling behind. Once again, irrelevant to the discussion.

Is your ability to think in terms of the context of time completely broken? Who was the ASIC industry leader at the time of the article in question?

[PuertoLibre]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

No, serious question. Are you saying that industry leaders are precluded from subcontracting? Apple will be totally bummed to hear this...

BFL is an industry leader?

What does that mean for Avalon or ASICMiner?

WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS. Are you retarded? We're talking about the state of things as they were at the time of the news article in question.

There's currently no clear-cut leader, although I think we all agree that BFL is falling behind. Once again, irrelevant to the discussion.

Is your ability to think in terms of the context of time completely broken? Who was the ASIC industry leader at the time of the article in question?

Please don't lose your marbles. Stay Calm. Please, STAY CALM! 

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

Yes. I am wrong, give me a moment to get my backpedal up to speed.

FTFY. Factsies are a downer aren't they?

What facts?

I'm asking a simple question, and you're dancing around it. Are industry leaders allowed to subcontract out, or not?

Also, dropt, not that it's really relevant to your inane argument, but what's the origin of the cited article? Was the article written by BFL? It appears to be 3rd party statements you're nitpicking, which even further weakens your point. Regardless of whether you ACTUALLY believe that industry leaders aren't allowed to do any subcontracting.

Lets put it this way, Josh has often made the point himself. (In his numerous excuses and delays)

Because they subcontracted they had less control over the schedules and often had to wait in line to get their own project done.

Therefore, the subcontracting is why June and July Jalepeno's (Bitforce 5) have only recently shipped. Almost a year later from the first pre-orders. (Rather than 2 months after the first pre-order)

Everyone else, had close ties to their manufacturing process and/or engineers. So weekends probably didn't matter.

Fair enough? (In other words are you willing (yet) to accept this reality?)

Utter and complete reading comprehension fail on your part. This deserves a quadruple facepalm...

[wrenchmonkey]

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back, it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?

No, serious question. Are you saying that industry leaders are precluded from subcontracting? Apple will be totally bummed to hear this...

BFL is an industry leader?

What does that mean for Avalon or ASICMiner?

WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS. Are you retarded? We're talking about the state of things as they were at the time of the news article in question.

There's currently no clear-cut leader, although I think we all agree that BFL is falling behind. Once again, irrelevant to the discussion.

Is your ability to think in terms of the context of time completely broken? Who was the ASIC industry leader at the time of the article in question?

Please don't lose your marbles. Stay Calm. Please, STAY CALM! 

I'm completely calm. I'm just repeating certain things for you, since it clearly takes a whole lot of repetition to get through (and I'm not even sure that will work).

Now then, have you yet grasped the barely-qualifying-as-abstract-concept that we're speaking in terms of the state of affairs at the time of that news article, or do we need to go through this a few dozen more times?

[k9quaint]

Lets put it this way, Josh has often made the point himself. (In his numerous excuses and delays)

Because they subcontracted they had less control over the schedules and often had to wait in line to get their own project done.

Therefore, the subcontracting is why June and July Jalepeno's (Bitforce 5) have only recently shipped. Almost a year later from the first pre-orders. (Rather than 2 months after the first pre-order)

Everyone else, had close ties to their manufacturing process and/or engineers. So weekends probably didn't matter.

Fair enough? (In other words are you willing (yet) to accept this reality?)

Utter and complete reading comprehension fail on your part. This deserves a quadruple facepalm...

Wrenchmonkey, you better call Josh. You are flailing and need help.

Also:
You do not lead the markets in microprocessor design if you pay someone else to do the design for you. The people you paid for the design might lead the markets, but you are just a customer passing off someone else's expertise as your own. BFL was passing off their subcontractor's expertise in chip design as their own.

[wrenchmonkey]

Lets put it this way, Josh has often made the point himself. (In his numerous excuses and delays)

Because they subcontracted they had less control over the schedules and often had to wait in line to get their own project done.

Therefore, the subcontracting is why June and July Jalepeno's (Bitforce 5) have only recently shipped. Almost a year later from the first pre-orders. (Rather than 2 months after the first pre-order)

Everyone else, had close ties to their manufacturing process and/or engineers. So weekends probably didn't matter.

Fair enough? (In other words are you willing (yet) to accept this reality?)

Utter and complete reading comprehension fail on your part. This deserves a quadruple facepalm...

Wrenchmonkey, you better call Josh. You are flailing and need help.

Also:
You do not lead the markets in microprocessor design if you pay someone else to do the design for you. The people you paid for the design might lead the markets, but you are just a customer passing off someone else's expertise as your own. BFL was passing off their subcontractor's expertise in chip design as their own.

Virtually every company in the WORLD is paying somebody else to do their labor. Whether they're directly employed, hired through a temp agency, or subcontracted/freelance.

You really don't understand how business works, do you?

[k9quaint]

Lets put it this way, Josh has often made the point himself. (In his numerous excuses and delays)

Because they subcontracted they had less control over the schedules and often had to wait in line to get their own project done.

Therefore, the subcontracting is why June and July Jalepeno's (Bitforce 5) have only recently shipped. Almost a year later from the first pre-orders. (Rather than 2 months after the first pre-order)

Everyone else, had close ties to their manufacturing process and/or engineers. So weekends probably didn't matter.

Fair enough? (In other words are you willing (yet) to accept this reality?)

Utter and complete reading comprehension fail on your part. This deserves a quadruple facepalm...

Wrenchmonkey, you better call Josh. You are flailing and need help.

Also:
You do not lead the markets in microprocessor design if you pay someone else to do the design for you. The people you paid for the design might lead the markets, but you are just a customer passing off someone else's expertise as your own. BFL was passing off their subcontractor's expertise in chip design as their own.

Virtually every company in the WORLD is paying somebody else to do their labor. Whether they're directly employed, hired through a temp agency, or subcontracted/freelance.

You really don't understand how business works, do you?

Not every company in the world claims to be a "a market leader in microprocessor design". Only companies that do microprocessor design might make that claim (and BFL). According to you, BFL does not have any engineers who do microprocessor design, therefore they are not even a member of the microprocessor design industry. BFL cannot lead an industry that they are not part of.

BFL was passing off their subcontractor's expertise in chip design as their own.

[PuertoLibre]

I'm not deflecting. Let me get this straight. You're saying that people who subcontract don't count as part of an industry?

This statement is true.
If I subcontract out to Volkswagen for 100% of the work designing and manufacturing my automobile, then I am not a leader in the auto industry. I merely bought a car that was the color I wanted.

This is the 5th time this question has been answered for you. Get someone with a double digit IQ to explain it to you.
Or tell BFL to hire a better shill.

No, but if you subcontract with Boeing and Volkswagen to design a turbine-engine-powered car that can break the current world speed record, and you call your car company "K9 Motors International" and you pre-sell a million units, and it drives the entire automotive industry toward modeling your idea, and utilizing turbine engines in their vehicles, even before you deliver your first unit, "K9 Motors International" can claim to be a leader in the turbine-powered automobile industry.

Neeeeext!

Thats called a partnership.

Most companies with such large contracts usually put the logos of partners (sub-contractors if you wish) and advertise it all over the place.

Some companies specialize in specific tasks. Like Boeing specifically deals in the aerospace industry. So does Lockheed Martin. (I haven't kept up with who has bought who by the way)

It's fair to say we have partnered up with a company that has lots of talent in designing microprocessors, specifically ASIC microprocessors.

-------------------

It is untrue to paint your own company as having experience in a field where it clearly did not (notice I used past tense and hindsight).

BFL's delays were caused (mostly likely) because they didn't have the experience they claimed to have. Probably not under the same roof. Therefore, the outcome was kind of obvious. All the essential processes were seemingly outsourced, this resulted in vast delays and problems that may have been cured quickly if not done by proxy.

Has everyone forgotten the fiasco that Josh had (repeatedly) with not even knowing when their chips were coming out of the fab?

It was a multi-month long show that lasted from October till sometimes in March. Then the next fiasco took place. They had no real idea what they were doing with the packager (the next stage after the fab). And of course (predictably, if you knew the setup BFL was using) that they were going to face issues with packaging their naked chips. That alone lasted (up until April or May).

Now, they seem to have finally got the hang of it. (Finally)

----------------------

Alot of this didn't happen at either ASICMiner nor Avalon.

Why is that?

By the way, bASIC used a very similar setup to BFL. Do you see them around today?

[k9quaint]

I wonder if the company that BFL bought their ASIC design from knows that BFL is pretending the design is theirs.
That might be why BFL has never identified their supplier for the design.

[wrenchmonkey]

Thats called a partnership.

It's called whatever the companies involved want to call it. If they want to keep that information proprietary, it's highly common to do so. NDAs exist in every industry, and they exist for a reason.

Most companies with such large contracts usually put the logos of partners (sub-contractors if you wish) and advertise it all over the place.

Many do, many do not. For example, Colt Firearms, the company that makes M4s and M16s for the U.S. Government. They don't manufacture a SINGLE piece of the firearm. It's all subcontracted and assembled. They slap their name and roll mark (logo) on it, and ship it out the door. They don't mark the pieces with AO Precision, and Lothar Walther, and Cero Forge, and Fabrique Nationale or any of the dozens of other possible subcontractor who make those parts. It's simply not done. In fact, those companies are forced to sign non-disclosure agreements saying that they will keep mum about who they're manufacturing their parts for. About as close as those companies are allowed get to disclosing anything about it is to say "We are a military subcontractor."

Keeping subcontractors quiet and protecting sources is BIIIIG business, and there are veritable ARMIES of attorneys who work full-time making sure NDAs don't get violated.

Basically, if it isn't directly useful for the purposes of advertising, and there's not a nice non-competition agreement in place before hand, NOBODY'S name or logo is allowed anywhere NEAR the parts in question, unless the company that actually owns the licensing puts it there. End of story.

Some companies specialize in specific tasks. Like Boeing specifically deals in the aerospace industry. So does Lockheed Martin. (I haven't kept up with who has bought who by the way)

Not sure what your point is here. Boeing and Lockheed Martin also so outsourced engineering deals (both providing and utilizing). They don't advertise when they outsource, and they damn sure don't advertise it when they provide services to outside companies, unless there's some sort of advertising agreement going on.

It's fair to say we have partnered up with a company that has lots of talent in designing microprocessors, specifically ASIC microprocessors.

It's also fair to leave that out. Ultimately, it's up to the license holder to decide whether it's worthwhile to release the details of any partnerships. Sometimes there's a good reason to, sometimes there's not. More often, there's not.

It is untrue to paint your own company as having experience in a field where it clearly did not (notice I used past tense and hindsight).

We don't know what all experience they had and did not have. We know that they apparently outsourced some of the ASIC design. That doesn't mean they're completely inexperienced in semiconductor design. You're speculating on that.

BFL's delays were caused (mostly likely) because they didn't have the experience they claimed to have. Probably not under the same roof. Therefore, the outcome was kind of obvious. All the essential processes were seemingly outsourced, this resulted in vast delays and problems that may have been cured quickly if not done by proxy.

More speculation, and again, completely irrelevant to the function of their company, or their claims to be an industry leader in ASIC mining hardware design (which they demonstrably were, and less arguably still are).

Has everyone forgotten the fiasco that Josh had (repeatedly) with not even knowing when their chips were coming out of the fab?

It was a multi-month long show that lasted from October till sometimes in March. Then the next fiasco took place. They had no real idea what they were doing with the packager (the next stage after the fab). And of course (predictably, if you knew the setup BFL was using) that they were going to face issues with packaging their naked chips. That alone lasted (up until April or May).

So then, it would seem that they lost their lead in the industry. Again, irrelevant to the question (and obvious answer in the affirmative) that they WERE a leader in ASICS and, if we want to take it a step further, FPGAs, as the time of the publication of that article.

Now, they seem to have finally got the hang of it. (Finally)

Yay! ...totally irrelevant!

Alot of this didn't happen at either ASICMiner nor Avalon.

Why is that?

Still irrelevant to the discussion. We don't know if anything was outsourced by those other companies either, and even if it wasn't it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not BFL was a leader at the time of the publication of the article in question.

By the way, bASIC used a very similar setup to BFL. Do you see them around today?

This has already been completely debunked a few pages back. bASIC never had a product, nor any apparent intention of, or progress toward, creating one.

[wrenchmonkey]

I wonder if the company that BFL bought their ASIC design from knows that BFL is pretending the design is theirs.
That might be why BFL has never identified their supplier for the design.

Subcontractors don't care about such petty horse shit. That's why they're subcontractors.

[dwolfman]

This thread looks so much nicer with the monkey being ignored. 

[a1phanumrc]

This thread looks so much nicer with the monkey being ignored. 

Good idea! The rant is getting tiring.

[k9quaint]

When I see Wrenchmonkey in this thread it reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGfNSitVQFM

His dancing act trying to make BFL into a microprocessor design company that doesn't have anyone who can actually do microprocessor design is only slighlty less of a WTF.

I wonder if the company that BFL bought their ASIC design from knows that BFL is pretending the design is theirs.
That might be why BFL has never identified their supplier for the design.

Subcontractors don't care about such petty horse shit. That's why they're subcontractors.

I am sure everyone will be glad to hear that Wrenchmonkey says they can fraudulently pass off others work as their own.

[wrenchmonkey]

Fraudulently pass off workers as their own? LOL. You've jumped the shark, K9, I really mean that...