[Groupbuy] Jupiter KNCMiner (0.5 BTC shares) 12 sold! [CLOSED] !!!

[blastbob]

any thought of adding up hardware with non-knc stuff like hashfast/cointerra?

ROI is not very good for any new orders. Just have to watch and see what happens.

[btceic]

what is the rationale for not putting the rest of the shares on bitfunder?
I would like to call a vote on this, do other people want the rest of their shares now or do you guys want to wait until delivery?

[szmarco]

what is the rationale for not putting the rest of the shares on bitfunder?
I would like to call a vote on this, do other people want the rest of their shares now or do you guys want to wait until delivery?

right now.

[tyrion70]

what is the rationale for not putting the rest of the shares on bitfunder?
I would like to call a vote on this, do other people want the rest of their shares now or do you guys want to wait until delivery?

Hey btceic,

We would have done that already if we could, but unfortunately there are a few reasons why we haven't.

First and most important is the delivery date. As you know we treat all miners in one groupbuy the same, but miners from groupbuy 2 and 3 are "different" from groupbuy 1. Reason being the delivery date. It wouldn't be fair to the early investors of groupbuy 1 to already issue the shares on groupbuy 2 and 3 because we would no longer have any means to payout dividend only to group 1, 2 or 3.

Second is the BTC/USD difference on each miner we still have to repair on first dividend. These averaged over each groupbuy. GB 1 and 2 still owe an amount of BTC due to that difference, GB3 are owed. If all shares would be issued now there would be no way to change that difference anymore.

Now as soon as we have a definitive delivery date on the miners from all three GB's we can decide whether or not we want to change this tactic. We are planning to drive to Sweden to pick up the first batch and it might make sense to pickup the day 2 miners all in one go even if that means we start hashing a little later on the first miners. We think shipping it would still take two business days so we'd still have them all earlier than if we shipped them. If that's the case we can basically issue the shares (no GB 2 at least) straight away. The BTC/USD difference between GB 1 and 2 is small enough to overcome that if need be.

Lastly we've discussed with Bitfunder the possibility of listing GB2 and 3 as seperate IPO's (even though we didn't want to do that), but Ukyo was strongly opposed to that, so that road seems closed as well for now.

We're doing our best to get that delivery date asap so we can issue the shares and we hope that we receive a definitive date pretty soon but until that time our hands are basically tied.

Cheers,

[btceic]

what is the rationale for not putting the rest of the shares on bitfunder?
I would like to call a vote on this, do other people want the rest of their shares now or do you guys want to wait until delivery?

Hey btceic,

We would have done that already if we could, but unfortunately there are a few reasons why we haven't.

First and most important is the delivery date. As you know we treat all miners in one groupbuy the same, but miners from groupbuy 2 and 3 are "different" from groupbuy 1. Reason being the delivery date. It wouldn't be fair to the early investors of groupbuy 1 to already issue the shares on groupbuy 2 and 3 because we would no longer have any means to payout dividend only to group 1, 2 or 3.

Second is the BTC/USD difference on each miner we still have to repair on first dividend. These averaged over each groupbuy. GB 1 and 2 still owe an amount of BTC due to that difference, GB3 are owed. If all shares would be issued now there would be no way to change that difference anymore.

Now as soon as we have a definitive delivery date on the miners from all three GB's we can decide whether or not we want to change this tactic. We are planning to drive to Sweden to pick up the first batch and it might make sense to pickup the day 2 miners all in one go even if that means we start hashing a little later on the first miners. We think shipping it would still take two business days so we'd still have them all earlier than if we shipped them. If that's the case we can basically issue the shares (no GB 2 at least) straight away. The BTC/USD difference between GB 1 and 2 is small enough to overcome that if need be.

Lastly we've discussed with Bitfunder the possibility of listing GB2 and 3 as seperate IPO's (even though we didn't want to do that), but Ukyo was strongly opposed to that, so that road seems closed as well for now.

We're doing our best to get that delivery date asap so we can issue the shares and we hope that we receive a definitive date pretty soon but until that time our hands are basically tied.

Cheers,

As always you guys are on top of things! Thanks for the quick reply!

[maqifrnswa]

what is the rationale for not putting the rest of the shares on bitfunder?
I would like to call a vote on this, do other people want the rest of their shares now or do you guys want to wait until delivery?

Hey btceic,

We would have done that already if we could, but unfortunately there are a few reasons why we haven't.

First and most important is the delivery date. As you know we treat all miners in one groupbuy the same, but miners from groupbuy 2 and 3 are "different" from groupbuy 1. Reason being the delivery date. It wouldn't be fair to the early investors of groupbuy 1 to already issue the shares on groupbuy 2 and 3 because we would no longer have any means to payout dividend only to group 1, 2 or 3.

Second is the BTC/USD difference on each miner we still have to repair on first dividend. These averaged over each groupbuy. GB 1 and 2 still owe an amount of BTC due to that difference, GB3 are owed. If all shares would be issued now there would be no way to change that difference anymore.

Now as soon as we have a definitive delivery date on the miners from all three GB's we can decide whether or not we want to change this tactic. We are planning to drive to Sweden to pick up the first batch and it might make sense to pickup the day 2 miners all in one go even if that means we start hashing a little later on the first miners. We think shipping it would still take two business days so we'd still have them all earlier than if we shipped them. If that's the case we can basically issue the shares (no GB 2 at least) straight away. The BTC/USD difference between GB 1 and 2 is small enough to overcome that if need be.

Lastly we've discussed with Bitfunder the possibility of listing GB2 and 3 as seperate IPO's (even though we didn't want to do that), but Ukyo was strongly opposed to that, so that road seems closed as well for now.

We're doing our best to get that delivery date asap so we can issue the shares and we hope that we receive a definitive date pretty soon but until that time our hands are basically tied.

Cheers,

I am curious, what is the implementation plan for dividends of the GB? It seems complex:

1) receive GB 1, turn them on, take the first mined coins to pay for the difference in BTC/USD, then distribute dividends normally
2) GB 2 arrives. give the last payout to the current shareholders (GB1). Issue shares to GB2. Turn on GB2. How do you take out mined coins only from GB2? After that, distribute GB1 and GB2 mined coins to all shareholders (GB1 and 2 now).
3) GB3 arives. give last payout to current shareholders (GB1 and GB2). Issue shares to GB3 and give GB3 some bitcoins for the BTC/USD difference (how does this happen?) Mine with GB1,2,&3. distributions to all shareholders.

[tyrion70]

Hey,

Thank you for describing the issues we face

Basically we can't issue GB2 until we've mined enough coins to withhold the differences. Now even with difficulty skyrocketing that shouldn't take to long but it's no exact math as of yet.

The amounts between GB1 and GB2 luckily don't differ to much (a few btc), so we might pay that difference out of our own pockets if that makes it a lot easier to withhold it. Especially if our plan of picking both GB 1 and GB2 up in one go works out. We are trying to get GB 2 as early on day 2 as possible to ensure we have no "waiting" loss. With that respect were also considering payout that out of our own pockets if that makes life easier with respect to issuing shares and paying dividends.

All in all, as soon as we have an exact date and time we can finalize the "battle plan"! We're as eager as you all are to have the equipment hashing and leave these things behind us

Cheers,

[maqifrnswa]

All in all, as soon as we have an exact date and time we can finalize the "battle plan"! We're as eager as you all are to have the equipment hashing and leave these things behind us

First off, this group buy is brilliant. I wish all other GBs (and IPOs) were this well planned and organized.

I figured out a mathematical way to do all the payment corrections and mine fairly for each GB. If it helps, great. If not, no problem.

There needs to be 3 price corrections for GB 1, 2, and 3. These can be done with 3 dividend corrections per share: "x", "y", and "z".

The first GB will see all three dividend corrections:
x+y+z= GB1_correction/Number_shares_GB1 (negative sign since they owe)

The second GB receives their shares later and only sees two:
y+z= GB2_correction/Number_shares_GB2

the third GB receives their shares last and only sees one dividend correction:
z= GB3_correction/Number_shares_GB3

Therefore the three dividend corrections per share are:
z = GB3_correction/Number_shares_GB3
y = GB2_correction/Number_shares_GB2 - GB3_correction/Number_shares_GB3
x = GB1_correction/Number_shares_GB1 - GB2_correction/Number_shares_GB2

Example:
GB1 underpaid by .2 BTC with 100 shareholders (-0.002)
GB2 underpaid by .3 BTC with 200 shareholders (-0.0015)
GB3 overpaid by .1 BTC with 100 shareholders (.001)

The dividend corrections per share are:
z = 0.1/100=0.001
y = (-0.3)/200-.001= (-0.0025)
x = (-0.2)/100-(-0.3)/200 = (-0.0005)

so after the dividend corrections:
GB1 sees -.0005-.0025+.001=-.002
GB2 sees -.0025+.001= -.0015
GB3 sees .001

they all work out, like magic

Proposed plan:
1) GB1 arrives
 a) hash away.
 b) first dividend pays out normally CORRECTED by x from above
2) GB2 arrives
 a) give final dividend of whatever has been mined to GB1 shares
 b) issue GB2 shares
 c) plug in GB2 and hash away
 d) give first GB1+2 dividend normally CORRECTED by y from above
3) GB3 arrives
 a) give final dividend of whatever has been mined to GB1+2 shares
 b) issue GB3 shares
 c) plug in GB3 and hash away
 d) give the first GB1+2+3 dividend normally CORRECTED by z from above
4) profit

[btceic]

tyrion70,
can we put the gb2 and gb 3 shares up and mark them as class b non dividend paying shares?
this will alleviate the issue with paying dividends and let us trade all of our shares.
not that i will be selling anytime soon but just want to see them up there.

[tyrion70]

All in all, as soon as we have an exact date and time we can finalize the "battle plan"! We're as eager as you all are to have the equipment hashing and leave these things behind us

First off, this group buy is brilliant. I wish all other GBs (and IPOs) were this well planned and organized.

I figured out a mathematical way to do all the payment corrections and mine fairly for each GB. If it helps, great. If not, no problem.

There needs to be 3 price corrections for GB 1, 2, and 3. These can be done with 3 dividend corrections per share: "x", "y", and "z".

The first GB will see all three dividend corrections:
x+y+z= GB1_correction/Number_shares_GB1 (negative sign since they owe)

The second GB receives their shares later and only sees two:
y+z= GB2_correction/Number_shares_GB2

the third GB receives their shares last and only sees one dividend correction:
z= GB3_correction/Number_shares_GB3

Therefore the three dividend corrections per share are:
z = GB3_correction/Number_shares_GB3
y = GB2_correction/Number_shares_GB2 - GB3_correction/Number_shares_GB3
x = GB1_correction/Number_shares_GB1 - GB2_correction/Number_shares_GB2

Example:
GB1 underpaid by .2 BTC with 100 shareholders (-0.002)
GB2 underpaid by .3 BTC with 200 shareholders (-0.0015)
GB3 overpaid by .1 BTC with 100 shareholders (.001)

The dividend corrections per share are:
z = 0.1/100=0.001
y = (-0.3)/200-.001= (-0.0025)
x = (-0.2)/100-(-0.3)/200 = (-0.0005)

so after the dividend corrections:
GB1 sees -.0005-.0025+.001=-.002
GB2 sees -.0025+.001= -.0015
GB3 sees .001

they all work out, like magic

Proposed plan:
1) GB1 arrives
 a) hash away.
 b) first dividend pays out normally CORRECTED by x from above
2) GB2 arrives
 a) give final dividend of whatever has been mined to GB1 shares
 b) issue GB2 shares
 c) plug in GB2 and hash away
 d) give first GB1+2 dividend normally CORRECTED by y from above
3) GB3 arrives
 a) give final dividend of whatever has been mined to GB1+2 shares
 b) issue GB3 shares
 c) plug in GB3 and hash away
 d) give the first GB1+2+3 dividend normally CORRECTED by z from above
4) profit

Cool! We've been breaking our heads to do this completely (I knew it had to be possible ) but this solves it completely. I'll probably have to read it three more time before I can explain it to someone else

Next time you logon to Bitfunder you'll see a reward for your solution

tyrion70,
can we put the gb2 and gb 3 shares up and mark them as class b non dividend paying shares?
this will alleviate the issue with paying dividends and let us trade all of our shares.
not that i will be selling anytime soon but just want to see them up there.

I'm not sure Bitfunder supports that option, but I'll check straight away.. If they do that's definately an option..

[justanickname]

Second is the BTC/USD difference on each miner we still have to repair on first dividend. These averaged over each groupbuy. GB 1 and 2 still owe an amount of BTC due to that difference, GB3 are owed. If all shares would be issued now there would be no way to change that difference anymore.

Can you please explain in details what this difference is all about?

Also, on another matter,  on what pool the miners are going to mine?

thanks

[tyrion70]

Can you please explain in details what this difference is all about?

Also, on another matter,  on what pool the miners are going to mine?

thanks

Hey,

It's the difference between how much btc we had to pay when we payed for the miner and the amount of btc raised with the shares. As stated in start post, we didn't want to change the share price during a groupbuy, so we payed the difference out of our own pockets. We will deduct this difference out of the first dividend payment. As stated in the OP we didn't want to lose nor win btc on that difference.

The pool is not 100% sure yet. Eligius stands a good chance but we probably want more than one pool to spread the risk. Also we want to look at pools where we can merge mine but most of them come with fees. Any suggestions on that part are welcome by the way

Cheers,

[btceic]

Can you please explain in details what this difference is all about?

Also, on another matter,  on what pool the miners are going to mine?

thanks

Hey,

It's the difference between how much btc we had to pay when we payed for the miner and the amount of btc raised with the shares. As stated in start post, we didn't want to change the share price during a groupbuy, so we payed the difference out of our own pockets. We will deduct this difference out of the first dividend payment. As stated in the OP we didn't want to lose nor win btc on that difference.

The pool is not 100% sure yet. Eligius stands a good chance but we probably want more than one pool to spread the risk. Also we want to look at pools where we can merge mine but most of them come with fees. Any suggestions on that part are welcome by the way

Cheers,

I have had good luck with bitminter.

[ImI]

It's the difference between how much btc we had to pay when we payed for the miner and the amount of btc raised with the shares. As stated in start post, we didn't want to change the share price during a groupbuy, so we payed the difference out of our own pockets. We will deduct this difference out of the first dividend payment.

Am i right that means that the early buyers of shares have to pay the difference to your later sold shares?

[tyrion70]

Am i right that means that the early buyers of shares have to pay the difference to your later sold shares?

If you choose to put it that way yes; but we clearly said we would from the start. At the time we couldn't foresee if btc would go up again or lower further and this seemed the most fair to all. If btc would have gone up again everybody would have profited from it.

Cheers

[tyrion70]

Just to add some numbers so we know what we're talking about The average difference on all 12 miners is -0,03015 btc per GB share. When we decided to IPO on Bitfunder we had no other choice to take our own first 4 miners into the equasion as well so we are paying 1/3 of that difference ourselves anyway

Miner 5 was bought with a difference of -0,01580 btc per share. Miner 6-12 were all bought with a difference higher than the 0,03015. So you are right that miner 5 is paying (a part of) the difference of the later sold shares, but as said it could have been the other way around.

On a second look thru the posts in this topic we see we've introduced this "change" during the sale of the 5th miner. Since miner 5 is also the only "negative" exception we will compensate the difference to miner 5 shareowners. We will refund these shareholders 0,01436 per share. We will contact these buyers through PM. For the rest of the buyers this shouldn't change anything. The difference will still be deducted as communicated during the first groupbuy.

Cheers,

[tyrion70]

PM's have been send to owners of 5th miner..

On a side note; we've been thinking of new groupbuys and other ways to invest money. We just started an interest check on an idea we have:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277191

Please take a look and give us your feedback/suggestions thanks!

Cheers,

[hasher87]

OR

1) GB1 devices arrive. Hash-it Away
2) GB2 devices arrive. Give out GB1 Dividends
3) Issue GB2 shares. Hash-it Away
4) Next two weeks: Dividends for both GB1 and GB2

Simple as 1234  

Protip: a one-time 24-hour dividend will definitely cause the share price to skyrocket! 

[tyrion70]

Latest KnC News here as well:

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-30



Its all getting really close now

@Hasher, we will probably send out divs earlier indeed to accomodate the other shares from gb2 and 3. Can't hurt the shareprice no

Also if you haven't checked it out, please take a look at our investment fund idea here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277191.0

Cheers!

[btceic]

very exciting!!!