BitcoinOrama Report on the KnCminer/OrSoC Open-day Mon 10/06/13 (Stockholm)

[titomane]

I work for KNC.  They pay me 1 Saturn for every witty remark. 1 jupiter for each positive comment KNC

[KS]

It's two different things.

Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.

But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).

And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.

So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.

Curiosity: what's your final position on KnC? Did you finally pre-ordered?

It seems he has some Jupiter preorder.
Who would have said 2-3 weeks ago. jajajaa

I do?  

KS certainly has a large interest in bulk Avalon and had spoken about almost dropping $30k on BFL Mini-rig.

So if he has $30k tied up in DIY monies I can understand him being anxious for long-term, but he should be fine short-term as long as he has bought from trustable vendors and not used debt to purchase.

There is no malice what I've just written, I want to see no one lose money, actually the total opposite. Parties getting crowded, but most of the world are clueless to it...

Right...

If KNCMINER wasn't making stupid comments like I just quoted Rampion, I would have considered them. Alas, they're just professional wannabes. I'm still on the fence regarding ORSoC (not the tech part), and I highly dislike the use of shills for self promotion. Have never seen so many, even on any other scammer thread, save for KNCMINER. That's another minus for them.

Please do continue, I presume you are suggesting I'm a shill? Just call me on it please, if that's the case.

I mean aside the fact I went in person and several other members can vouch for me...

I offered to ask any question you wanted, was pretty thorough with my analysis and the door is always open for yourself to go in person. I recommend anyone does if you're considering potentially risking more moeny than a flight...there's worse places to fruitlessly check out than Stockholm otherwise.

Apart from you. Besides, if you are a shill, going to Sweden doesn't really disprove anything

I'm still curious to know whether you actually paid for the Jupiter you have on order. You've been evading that question, for possibly weeks. This is not helping to disprove your "shilliness" either.

I'm only riding you because you basically harangue ppl to go for KNCMINER while not showing the same monetary commitment. But I told you that already. (your argument of not spending more than they can afford to lose is kind of moot, you're still pushing them and attacking everyone who is not pro KNCMINER).

I'm just looking at the facts and debunking the BS that comes out. I think ppl made a bad investment in KNCMINER but, as I said a number of times (must be old age, keep repeating myself), the train has left the station and KNCMINER has received the money. Pre-order game over.

If they work as professionals and stop the bullshitting, I will revise my opinion. ITM, why don't you let their BS be exposed and not try to find every possible excuse for them?

[KS]

I work for KNC.  They pay me 1 Saturn for every witty remark. 1 jupiter for each positive comment KNC

See? I knew it! 

 

[Bitcoinorama]

It's two different things.

Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.

But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).

And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.

So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.

Curiosity: what's your final position on KnC? Did you finally pre-ordered?

It seems he has some Jupiter preorder.
Who would have said 2-3 weeks ago. jajajaa

I do?  

KS certainly has a large interest in bulk Avalon and had spoken about almost dropping $30k on BFL Mini-rig.

So if he has $30k tied up in DIY monies I can understand him being anxious for long-term, but he should be fine short-term as long as he has bought from trustable vendors and not used debt to purchase.

There is no malice what I've just written, I want to see no one lose money, actually the total opposite. Parties getting crowded, but most of the world are clueless to it...

Right...

If KNCMINER wasn't making stupid comments like I just quoted Rampion, I would have considered them. Alas, they're just professional wannabes. I'm still on the fence regarding ORSoC (not the tech part), and I highly dislike the use of shills for self promotion. Have never seen so many, even on any other scammer thread, save for KNCMINER. That's another minus for them.

Please do continue, I presume you are suggesting I'm a shill? Just call me on it please, if that's the case.

I mean aside the fact I went in person and several other members can vouch for me...

I offered to ask any question you wanted, was pretty thorough with my analysis and the door is always open for yourself to go in person. I recommend anyone does if you're considering potentially risking more moeny than a flight...there's worse places to fruitlessly check out than Stockholm otherwise.

Apart from you. Besides, if you are a shill, going to Sweden doesn't really disprove anything

I'm still curious to know whether you actually paid for the Jupiter you have on order. You've been evading that question, for possibly weeks. This is not helping to disprove your "shilliness" either.

I'm only riding you because you basically harangue ppl to go for KNCMINER while not showing the same monetary commitment. But I told you that already. (your argument of not spending more than they can afford to lose is kind of moot, you're still pushing them and attacking everyone who is not pro KNCMINER).

I'm just looking at the facts and debunking the BS that comes out. I think ppl made a bad investment in KNCMINER but, as I said a number of times (must be old age, keep repeating myself), the train has left the station and KNCMINER has received the money. Pre-order game over.

If they work as professionals and stop the bullshitting, I will revise my opinion. ITM, why don't you let their BS be exposed and not try to find every possible excuse for them?

I'm not going to claim my interest in going out there was solely purchasing mining products. As I've said on a few occasions I studied my masters in Engineering Design, which is what this is; a high pressure, just in time manufacture, so I have a solid interest there. I also want to be involved in Bitcoin (well specifically crypto-currency) over the long term. So I went to check them out as an engineering design firm for myself for potential employment as well as my own investment. This is a burgeoning industry that is here to stay, regardless of whether Bitcoin does or doesn't.

I know I've talked up KnC and ORSoC, based on research as I have uncovered it. They are a legitimate design firm, I know what to look for in that and they are definitely not out to steal people's money. Whether they can deliver without a hitch, which will be jaw dropping, as nothing I've ever designed has gone sole rely smoothly, remains to be seen. They have big balls, I will give them that. If they succeed in this, KnC, and ORSoC will gain a fantastic reputation. Why wouldn't I want to be involved in that? That said, I have never ever advised anyone do anything other than do their own research, find a secure means of payment to pay by and go in person themselves to see what they're about.

I totally felt the responsibility of creating a report as thorough as possible, after being so positive about them prior, but I'm not currently under their employment, I've not been paid anything, either cash or promise as you allude to and I did my best to remain impartial throughout questioning and get some answers people really wanted to hear. I genuinely did my best for everyone. I have no sinister underlying motive.

The sponsoring of the film was something I suggested to them last week as it broke press in the States. I saw it as a wise and low cost/ big impact marketing move as one of Sam's concerns about risk was the need to push Bitcoin for mainstream adoption. The film idea ticked all those boxes and I forwarded the Kickstarter page. Fri or Sat I think. Sam said he liked the idea, but I'm as surprised as anyone else that they've actually gone for it. It's a shrewd move if you want legitimacy.

[Bagpipe]

Well, thanks. Finally someone who knows how to design an MCM properly. Bad luck I did not submit any questions. I guess only organic substrates for MCMs are of interest today, the old-era ceramic ones are good, but not even ATi or nVidia uses them...
Ah well. As for the burn-in, can they allow some users to opt-in for the burn-in? I would like to receive my unit sooner than the others ;-)

and KS, I appreciate your input, but I also have to admit that being dysloectic is a serios illnes (Sam Cole as an example).

[Rampion]

Bitcoinorama, no harsh feelings: did you receive a free unit or not?

I guess if they offered it to you they would have asked for you to not disclose the fact, so let's keep it simple for everybody: if they indeed gave you a free unit, just ignore this post. If they didn't, just reply: "no, I was never given or promised a free unit"

[Bitcoinorama]

Well, thanks. Finally someone who knows how to design an MCM properly. Bad luck I did not submit any questions. I guess only organic substrates for MCMs are of interest today, the old-era ceramic ones are good, but not even ATi or nVidia uses them...
Ah well. As for the burn-in, can they allow some users to opt-in for the burn-in? I would like to receive my unit sooner than the others ;-)

and KS, I appreciate your input, but I also have to admit that being dysloectic is a serios illnes (Sam Cole as an example).

When were at the open-day the burn ins mentioned I think we're only 10 minutes and may even be to your wallet. I was surprised at the time at how short they said they would be, I assumed you need to test for long-term usage. Perhaps it was 10 hours then, but certainly wasn't days. I'm sure it's on the audio somewhere.

[Bitcoinorama]

Bitcoinorama, no harsh feelings: did you receive a free unit or not?

I guess if they offered it to you they would have asked for you to not disclose the fact, so let's keep it simple for everybody: if they indeed gave you a free unit, just ignore this post. If they didn't, just reply: "no, I was never given or promised a free unit"

I certainly asked them not to ship any early devices to media, bloggers, etc. over real customers, like BFL did. I said community reaction and confidence alone would propel such positive results to be newsworthy in it's own right, especially with the story KnC will have if they actually deliver on rime. Sam said they would rather give units out to valuable members of the community such as devs, etc...whether I'm part of that I don't know. I know I've been helpful, but that's not why I have been, and that's not why I went there. My research was self-motivated and for my own reasons, but whilst I was doing it There's no harm in sharing it. I was looking for the first legitimate engineering firm(s) as a contender(s), and I found it. In addition, like the previous attendees said they had strong praise for Phinneaus Gage, as despite his determination to prove them a scam, he actually uncovered a lot that was useful for potential investors to know about their backgrounds and his intentions to bust scam companies, were evenly distributed, regardless of the thread, so he had no particular malice serviced towards them, and they respected that.

I also liked the look of Terrahash, purely as a DIY underdog, but now they have opened books and only just shown an order for 10k chips, claiming they have 20k on order, that equals 15.6666 fully loaded Terrahash DX Large's @ 180 Gh/s, which means they have just taken an obscenely large amount of orders (still rising) they cannot currently accommodate chips for...still they accept Paypal, and thus credit card.

[dwangoac]

Bitcoinorama, no harsh feelings: did you receive a free unit or not?

I guess if they offered it to you they would have asked for you to not disclose the fact, so let's keep it simple for everybody: if they indeed gave you a free unit, just ignore this post. If they didn't, just reply: "no, I was never given or promised a free unit"

I certainly asked them not to ship any early devices to media, bloggers, etc. over real customers, like BFL did.

I, like many others, greatly appreciate your report and the time you have invested into it.  Can you please answer Rampion's question with a yes or no answer?  Did you receive a free or discounted KNC unit of any kind for any reason from any source, or a promise of the same?

Your credibility and transparency will be rewarded.   Just curious,

A.C.
******

[Rampion]

Bitcoinorama, no harsh feelings: did you receive a free unit or not?

I guess if they offered it to you they would have asked for you to not disclose the fact, so let's keep it simple for everybody: if they indeed gave you a free unit, just ignore this post. If they didn't, just reply: "no, I was never given or promised a free unit"

I certainly asked them not to ship any early devices to media, bloggers, etc. over real customers, like BFL did.

I, like many others, greatly appreciate your report and the time you have invested into it.  Can you please answer Rampion's question with a yes or no answer?  Did you receive a free or discounted KNC unit of any kind for any reason from any source, or a promise of the same?

Your credibility and transparency will be rewarded.   Just curious,

A.C.
******

He answered not answering. Not everything has to be confirmed in public, he has no obligation for that - just factor everything on the analysis that leads to your own conclusion.

I'd like to add that IMO Bitcoinorama posted tons of valuable info for the whole community, and regardless of seeming a little "fanboy" or overenthusiastic at some times the videos and transcriptions are valuable, and both the questions provided by the community and kNC answers have been faithfully transmitted.

[dwangoac]

He answered not answering. Not everything has to be confirmed in public, he has no obligation for that - just factor everything on the analysis that leads to your own conclusion.

I'd like to add that IMO Bitcoinorama posted tons of valuable info for the whole community, and regardless of seeming a little "fanboy" or overenthusiastic at some times the videos and transcriptions are valuable, and both the questions provided by the community and kNC answers have been faithfully transmitted.

In that case, simply saying "I would prefer not to answer that question at this time." or "No comment." would be great too.

I possibly sounded more harsh than I intended to; I agree with you that Bitcoinorama has posted incredibly valuable information and regardless of the motivation I appreciate the depth of the effort.  I'm perhaps over-reacting as a result of observing disasters from other companies unfolding.  If I stepped on any toes, I apologize.

Thanks again,

A.C.
******

[Bitcoinorama]

Gee Whizz please people don't provide answers for me, I'm capable of speaking for myself, but I feel this does back me into a corner i'm not comfortable with.

As far as I know, no one has been given freebies, aside that married couple for the film, which is a stroke of genius.

There was talk at the openday that they wanted to reward 'members of the community', and by that I believe they mean the community at large, we spoke of devs, etc. All those in attendance were present for this. There was a mention of putting a vote out in the forum, but it's really not my place to be commenting on that, as I can't remember whether that is on or off record, so I won't go into further specifics, lots of ideas were thrown around.  I certainly don't want to be on record saying this, or that and inadvertently cast myself outside of any runnings, as straight-up if there is anything offered at a later date, I'm not stupid, I wouldn't turn it down, neither would I want to feel pressured to do so. Likewise no one should feel under pressure to reward me anything.  I did what I did out of my own free choice, admittedly I shared info, but the intentions were somewhat selfish in that I was researching a mining company to invest in their product, and stumbled across a legitimate talented engineering firm that sparked further academic/professional interest aside buying a product. As I said above, I have not been paid for my time, i'm not under any employment, but I definitely liked what and who I saw when I went there, as unanimously did everyone else. I certainly did take my CV with me just in case.

The only thing I feel comfortable sharing here is my thoughts in that this product, if it works, and they deliver on time will sell itself, fact. It will provide an epic newsworthy story, fact. There is no need to comp incompetent journalism like BFL did. BFL's money printing machine that kept them in favour with certain press was a very superficial ploy. It drove them tonnes of unsophisticated Bitcoin wannabe investors that they now cannot handle. Both Wired and Arts Technica's stories surrounding the subject were grossly unresearched and showed a complete lack of understanding of both Bitcoin and mining. Regardless the purpose of both publications is to bring tech related news, and if they don't feel a genuine contender to the Bitcoin ASIC mining fraternity is relevant tech news without bribery then they are doing themselves, and their readership, a disservice. If they want to get their hands on products to review, my feeling is they should either cozy up to someone they know with a pre-order, or join the queue themselves. Assisting a film that intends to spread the word on Bitcoin acceptance, makes far more sense to me, and will do far more for ensuring mining is distributed and in the hands of the normal people. It was a stroke of good fortune, more than anything else that I happened to be pinged relevant news about the Kickstarter project. I have Google set up to alert me on Bitcoin news and I leapt on that when I saw it as it's a fantastic opportunity for all involved. More than anything the couple are animated, motivated to do this, whilst relaxed on camera, and appear like genuine characters with mainstream appeal. Giving those two a Jupiter as a 'wedding present' to use on their eccentric 90-day 'honeymoon' is well worth it to help stabalise the Bitcoin price and generate a buzz around local and global public BTC acceptance. It's a no brainer, and most importantly the couple get a fantastic adventure out of it. It's potentially a beautiful story in it's own right. I say good luck to them.

[blastbob]

Go Bitcoinorama, just smile and wave, smile and wave.

There will be some bagholders soon..

[Bitcoinorama]

Monster!!...https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=237710.msg2514804#msg2514804

[idee2013]

@ Bitcoinrama: Do not  put yourself under pressure by anybody. You have done a very good job for the most of us here....whatever KNC will do in the future...

[Rampion]

Ok, so you were not given a freebie but you are kinda *hoping* for one that may or may not arrive.

 

[titomane]

Monster!!...https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=237710.msg2514804#msg2514804

Awesome farm

[KS]

Gee Whizz please people don't provide answers for me, I'm capable of speaking for myself, but I feel this does back me into a corner i'm not comfortable with.

As far as I know, no one has been given freebies, aside that married couple for the film, which is a stroke of genius.

There was talk at the openday that they wanted to reward 'members of the community', and by that I believe they mean the community at large, we spoke of devs, etc. All those in attendance were present for this. There was a mention of putting a vote out in the forum, but it's really not my place to be commenting on that, as I can't remember whether that is on or off record, so I won't go into further specifics, lots of ideas were thrown around.  I certainly don't want to be on record saying this, or that and inadvertently cast myself outside of any runnings, as straight-up if there is anything offered at a later date, I'm not stupid, I wouldn't turn it down, neither would I want to feel pressured to do so. Likewise no one should feel under pressure to reward me anything.  I did what I did out of my own free choice, admittedly I shared info, but the intentions were somewhat selfish in that I was researching a mining company to invest in their product, and stumbled across a legitimate talented engineering firm that sparked further academic/professional interest aside buying a product. As I said above, I have not been paid for my time, i'm not under any employment, but I definitely liked what and who I saw when I went there, as unanimously did everyone else. I certainly did take my CV with me just in case.

The only thing I feel comfortable sharing here is my thoughts in that this product, if it works, and they deliver on time will sell itself, fact. It will provide an epic newsworthy story, fact. There is no need to comp incompetent journalism like BFL did. BFL's money printing machine that kept them in favour with certain press was a very superficial ploy. It drove them tonnes of unsophisticated Bitcoin wannabe investors that they now cannot handle. Both Wired and Arts Technica's stories surrounding the subject were grossly unresearched and showed a complete lack of understanding of both Bitcoin and mining. Regardless the purpose of both publications is to bring tech related news, and if they don't feel a genuine contender to the Bitcoin ASIC mining fraternity is relevant tech news without bribery then they are doing themselves, and their readership, a disservice. If they want to get their hands on products to review, my feeling is they should either cozy up to someone they know with a pre-order, or join the queue themselves. Assisting a film that intends to spread the word on Bitcoin acceptance, makes far more sense to me, and will do far more for ensuring mining is distributed and in the hands of the normal people. It was a stroke of good fortune, more than anything else that I happened to be pinged relevant news about the Kickstarter project. I have Google set up to alert me on Bitcoin news and I leapt on that when I saw it as it's a fantastic opportunity for all involved. More than anything the couple are animated, motivated to do this, whilst relaxed on camera, and appear like genuine characters with mainstream appeal. Giving those two a Jupiter as a 'wedding present' to use on their eccentric 90-day 'honeymoon' is well worth it to help stabalise the Bitcoin price and generate a buzz around local and global public BTC acceptance. It's a no brainer, and most importantly the couple get a fantastic adventure out of it. It's potentially a beautiful story in it's own right. I say good luck to them.

You should start putting those factlets in your sig. "want to work for KNCMINER, expecting to receive a free Jupiter".

No matter the criticism I can throw your way, I still appreciate the reports. I wish your prose were less biased though, they're still selling vaporware after all.

[dhenson]

The sponsoring of the film was something I suggested to them last week as it broke press in the States. I saw it as a wise and low cost/ big impact marketing move as one of Sam's concerns about risk was the need to push Bitcoin for mainstream adoption. The film idea ticked all those boxes and I forwarded the Kickstarter page. Fri or Sat I think. Sam said he liked the idea, but I'm as surprised as anyone else that they've actually gone for it. It's a shrewd move if you want legitimacy.

Great idea, I feel you have done the entire bitcoin community a great service with this suggestion (assuming KnC pulls through and delivers on time).

You sir have earned a couple of beers on me.  Hopefully you find a Swedish hottie to drink them with.
https://blockchain.info/tx/d91071418b26db238e55a237b8337e93434868b22e057b06be19367840fc268a

edit.. link fixed

[KS]

and KS, I appreciate your input, but I also have to admit that being dysloectic is a serios illnes (Sam Cole as an example).

That's news to me. Maybe he shouldn't be in charge of public relations or s.o. should double check what he says/writes. And that still does not preclude them from NOT making false claims or misrepresent themselves (as in the K&C as KNCMINER company presentation to later incorporate KNCMINER in a separate company and falsely advertising a private website as a Gov one).