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Author Topic: 2013-06-13 Latest from FinCEN  (Read 7019 times)
QuestionAuthority
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June 16, 2013, 01:46:03 AM
 #101

Jennifer Shasky Calvery, Director of the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network says:
" keep in mind the combined actions by the Department of Justice and FinCEN took down
a $6 billion money laundering operation (Liberty Reserve), the biggest in U.S. history."


However she somehow fails to mention:


Standard Chartered had processed $250bn
in illegal transactions over nearly a decade of business
 with US-sanctioned countries including Libya, Burma and Sudan.

Two HSBC affiliates sent nearly 25,000 transactions involving $19.4 billion
through their HBUS accounts over seven years without disclosing the transactions’
links to Iran.

HSBC cleared $290 million in “obviously suspicious travelers cheques”
that benefitted Russians “who claimed to be in the used car business.”


Previously HSBC processed $60 trillion (that it TRILLION with a "T") in wire transfer and account activity and
had a backlog of 17,000 unreviewed account alerts
regarding potentially suspicious activity
and a failure to conduct anti-money laundering due diligence
before opening accounts for HSBC affiliates.

Huh?

You're right of course. HSBC did pay a $1.9 Billion fine for facilitating money laundering.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/11/us-hsbc-probe-idUSBRE8BA05M20121211

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June 16, 2013, 03:43:12 AM
 #102

But is this going to be a problem? No. Not for Bitcoin. BTC will go back to obscurity and stay where it is.

Not likely.

FINCEN only has 300 employees...
Of which maybe 3 are working on virtual currencies.

This is all about to change FAST...
When Obama will double the FINCEN workforce with a stroke of a pen.

Once they have detailed lists of Early Adoptors hoarding BTC...
They will pick a few high profile targets from BitCoinTalk...
And heavily armed SWAT teams will descend on your humble abode...
You will be perp-walked in front of your neighbors in handcuffs...
While the nice, sexy TV reporter talks about terrorism, money laundering, and porn.

Let's say you have 5,000 BTC worth $500,000 (and who doesn't, baby)...
But have not been filing Tax Returns and just chilling like Satoshi...
Well, the fine is confiscation, up to 300% in additional fines, plus some quality Club Fed time.

So, theoretically, when our First Adopter friend gets out of the joint...
He will owe the US Govt $1,500,000...
Less $231 that friend-o earned working in the Prison Library at $0.11/hour...
So our First Adopter buddy will owe the US Govt only $1,499,769 plus interest...
Certainly not enough to rat on his business associates and cut a deal.



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June 16, 2013, 03:59:20 AM
 #103

HELP banks? How? By taking away their business? I'm sure, they will literally smash in your door to get this service.

its not taking away any business from banks. when you put fiat into a payment gateway such as paypal. it sits in a bank account. banks love this as in the middle of the night they can play with your money on the stock markets making their profits in the miliseconds of the days. and you are unaware of this.

but putting fiat into an envelope to then send to another country does not allow the banks the same pleasure of playing with your money. so by bitcoin being the border crossing exchange changes this:

person A take money out of bank -> places in envelope -> send to another country -> poof bank note never seen by a bank again

into this
person A does bank wire to exchange in the same country -> money remains in the country -> bitcoins go where they want -> but fiat money still sits in the bank accounts of the same country

the only thing banks dont like is having to freeze accounts while DOJ/SOCA investigate it. because then even banks cant play with the money when its frozen. so do the banks a favour.. read the regulations about FIAT in your country, follow them and you will see that there is no big deal bitcoin related


Not likely.

FINCEN only has 300 employees...
Of which maybe 3 are working on virtual currencies.

This is all about to change FAST...
When Obama will double the FINCEN workforce with a stroke of a pen.

Once they have detailed lists of Early Adoptors hoarding BTC...
They will pick a few high profile targets from BitCoinTalk...
And heavily armed SWAT teams will descend on your humble abode...
You will be perp-walked in front of your neighbors in handcuffs...
While the nice, sexy TV reporter talks about terrorism, money laundering, and porn.

Let's say you have 5,000 BTC worth $500,000 (and who doesn't, baby)...
But have not been filing Tax Returns and just chilling like Satoshi...
Well, the fine is confiscation, up to 300% in additional fines, plus some quality Club Fed time.

So, theoretically, when our First Adopter friend gets out of the joint...
He will owe the US Govt $1,500,000...
Less $231 that friend-o earned working in the Prison Library at $0.11/hour...
So our First Adopter buddy will owe the US Govt only $1,499,769 plus interest...
Certainly not enough to rat on his business associates and cut a deal.


again fincen is not after bitcoin people. they are after FIAT traders that are not licenced. the words virtual currency which they wish to regulate are the digital forms (virtual, not physical) of bank notes

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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June 16, 2013, 03:44:15 PM
 #104

again fincen is not after bitcoin people. they are after FIAT traders that are not licenced.

That's not accurate as Fincen engages in arbitrary enforcement. We have no idea what they're up to.
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June 16, 2013, 04:51:53 PM
 #105

again fincen is not after bitcoin people. they are after FIAT traders that are not licenced.

We have no idea what they're up to.

I suspect that they don't either. I think they are making it up as they go along.
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June 16, 2013, 04:56:37 PM
 #106

again fincen is not after bitcoin people. they are after FIAT traders that are not licenced.

That's not accurate as Fincen engages in arbitrary enforcement. We have no idea what they're up to.

Severian:

According to FinCEN:

"FinCEN’s guidance explains that administrators or exchangers of virtual currencies have
registration requirements and a broad range of AML program, recordkeeping, and reporting
responsibilities. Those offering virtual currencies must comply with these regulatory
requirements, and if they do so, they have nothing to fear from Treasury."

Now if you are allowing illegal activities on your system then are you liable for Criminal enforcement from DOJ/DHS etc.

See: Liberty Reserve ( and possibly Mt. Gox)
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June 16, 2013, 04:57:20 PM
 #107

I think they are making it up as they go along.

Ah, government!
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June 16, 2013, 05:00:13 PM
 #108

Now if you are allowing illegal activities on your system they are you liable for Criminal enforcement from DOJ/DHS etc.

And they might decide something that's legal this week will be illegal next week. That's arbitrary authority.
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June 16, 2013, 05:19:10 PM
 #109

Now if you are allowing illegal activities on your system they are you liable for Criminal enforcement from DOJ/DHS etc.

And they might decide something that's legal this week will be illegal next week. That's arbitrary authority.

I agree that this uncertain regulation is very unsettling however FINcen and DOJ etc has made it pretty clear that they are not big fans fan of the following activity.

Money Laundering
Terrorist Financing
Child/Human Exploitation

If you plan on engaging in or allowing this type of activity then you could be prosecuted.
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June 16, 2013, 05:35:30 PM
 #110

I agree that this uncertain regulation is very unsettling

It's the crux of the issue. Fincen is destablizing Bitcoin by wielding arbitrary authority. Taking down Liberty Reserve while allowing the larger banking players to continue with their criminal behavior for a fine/fee is a good example of such arbitrary power. It even undermines Fincen's own enforcement authority in the larger world such that future regulatory actions will likely focus on increasingly smaller players.
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June 16, 2013, 05:37:13 PM
 #111

Now if you are allowing illegal activities on your system they are you liable for Criminal enforcement from DOJ/DHS etc.

And they might decide something that's legal this week will be illegal next week. That's arbitrary authority.

I agree that this uncertain regulation is very unsettling however FINcen and DOJ etc has made it pretty clear that they are not big fans fan of the following activity.

Money Laundering
Terrorist Financing
Child/Human Exploitation

If you plan on engaging in or allowing this type of activity then you could be prosecuted.

Yes, but since the days of Al Capone they have gone after the money when they were unsuccessful at stopping the crime. In their view eliminating Bitcoin in the USA = stopping crime.

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June 16, 2013, 05:47:26 PM
Last edit: June 16, 2013, 06:19:42 PM by DeathAndTaxes
 #112

I agree that this uncertain regulation is very unsettling

It's the crux of the issue. Fincen is destabilizing Bitcoin by wielding arbitrary authority. Taking down Liberty Reserve while allowing the larger banking players to continue with their criminal behavior for a fine/fee is a good example of such arbitrary power. It even undermines Fincen's own enforcement authority in the larger world such that future regulatory actions will likely focus on increasingly smaller players.

The worst part is that the "Money Transmitter" classification is a poison pill.  Not at the federal level where the requirements are no different than any other MSB.  The issue is that at the state level MT are very heavily regulated, licensed, and bonded.  If FinCEN says virtual currency exchanges are money transmitters according to federal law will the states follow the same path.  Remember each state has a byzantine set of different regulations, licenses, and requirements.  Licensing even if a startup can meet the high cost, capital requirements, and can secure an expensive surety bond can take anywhere from 6 to 24 months.  Now repeat that for every single state.  There is a reason there are only roughly a dozen companies with MT licenses in all the states*, those companies employ an army of lawyers to keep compliant. There is no business with more regulatory overhead than money transmitters, except maybe banks.  It may be cheaper for a well capitalized company to form a National Bank as that bypasses all state regulation.

Now I am not saying Bitcoin brokers/dealers/exchanges shouldn't have some regulation, that is likely inevitable in every country.  The MT classification is a regulatory sledgehammer and it will stifle innovation and reduce the number of players to the few very well capitalized companies (i.e. PayPal 2.0) which can afford to play that game.  Of course the cost of that regulatory overhead doesn't vanish.  It is a perpetual costs which will be passed on to users in the form of higher fees.  Higher fees will make Bitcoin less attractive (as least in the US) and that will slow adoption.

Just to give you an example:
Gold Dealer?  Regulated?  Yes.  Money Transmitter? No.
VISA? Regulated? Yes.  Money Transmitter? No.
Commodities Broker?  Regulated?  Yes.  Money Transmitter? No.
Securities Broker?  Regulated? Yes.  Money Transmitter? No.
Currency Dealer/Broker?  Regulated? Yes.  Money Transmitter?  No.
Tiny Bitcoin startup?  Regulated? Yes.  Money Transmitter? Yes (if they exchange virtual currency for real currency)

All of those entities send and receive funds but they aren't considered money transmitters.  That expensive definition has generally been reserved for the transmission of funds from one person to another one.  Now FinCEN doesn't say that a MT at federal level makes one a MT at the state level but it leaves the door wide open.  Using logic or common sense, the action of exchanging BTC for USD is far more similar to the action of exchanging EUR for USD than any other classification, yes FinCEN took the MT route in their guidance.  FinCEN already has a classification for exchanging "real" currencies, it is called "Foreign Currency Dealer/Exchange".  Now this is still a type of MSB and thus still regulated at the federal level but almost no state require licensing for that activity.  Of the six categories of MSBs, FinCEN just happened (in a legal stretch) to put Bitcoin exchanges into the category which faces (by many magnitudes) the highest level of potential regulation at the state level.

As an example lets look at the actions of three theoretical companies:
BitBase accepts a certain amount of USD from a person and provides the SAME person a certain amount of BTC based on a published exchange rate.
FiatBase accepts a certain amount of USD from a person and provides the SAME person a certain amount of EUR based on a published exchange rate.
Western Union accepts a certain amount of USD from ONE PERSON and transmits it to a DIFFERENT person for a fee.
Of these three which seems the most dissimilar?

Common sense says WU is the different one.  FinCEN says no, FiatBase is the different one. The first and third examples are money transmitters and FiatBase is a Dealer in Foreign Currency.


Now I know the tone was gloomy but the actions of FinCEN won't kill Bitcoin, Bitcoin will route around the damaged parts of the system.  The Canadian equivalent of FinCEN has indicated the action of exchanging virtual currency for real currency simply doesn't fit under any existing law and thus (for now) is unregulated.  This doesn't mean Canada will need to pass NEW LAWS rather than take the "guidance" route that FinCEN did.  You know that whole concept of "of the people, by the people, for the people".  The situation in the US however is now open to uncertainty, risk, and additional cost.  Coincidence?



* "all" = 47 states and 4 territories which require them.
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June 16, 2013, 05:54:43 PM
 #113

DeathAndTaxes

We should schedule a trip to Washington D.C.

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June 16, 2013, 05:59:34 PM
 #114

DeathAndTaxes

We should schedule a trip to Washington D.C.

BCB

I'll go! I hear you can score some of the youngest hookers and best drugs in the country in the park across the street from the White House.

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June 16, 2013, 06:04:12 PM
 #115

Now if you are allowing illegal activities on your system they are you liable for Criminal enforcement from DOJ/DHS etc.

And they might decide something that's legal this week will be illegal next week. That's arbitrary authority.

I agree that this uncertain regulation is very unsettling however FINcen and DOJ etc has made it pretty clear that they are not big fans fan of the following activity.

Money Laundering
Terrorist Financing
Child/Human Exploitation

If you plan on engaging in or allowing this type of activity then you could be prosecuted.

Yes, but since the days of Al Capone they have gone after the money when they were unsuccessful at stopping the crime. In their view eliminating Bitcoin in the USA = stopping crime.   ELIMINATING COMPETITION.
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June 16, 2013, 06:08:59 PM
 #116

Now if you are allowing illegal activities on your system they are you liable for Criminal enforcement from DOJ/DHS etc.

And they might decide something that's legal this week will be illegal next week. That's arbitrary authority.

I agree that this uncertain regulation is very unsettling however FINcen and DOJ etc has made it pretty clear that they are not big fans fan of the following activity.

Money Laundering
Terrorist Financing
Child/Human Exploitation

If you plan on engaging in or allowing this type of activity then you could be prosecuted.

Yes, but since the days of Al Capone they have gone after the money when they were unsuccessful at stopping the crime. In their view eliminating Bitcoin in the USA = stopping crime.   ELIMINATING COMPETITION.

Exactly! They should have just taxed Gin in the first place.

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June 16, 2013, 06:12:07 PM
 #117

Quote
Expect the number of legit dealers/exchanges in the US to shrink dramatically and the few that remains will be much larger and pass that very heavy state regulatory burden onto consumers in the form of higher fees.

And btc sales will be tied to a person's bank info, tainting the coin and allowing coin tracking to those with access to the bank's info. I think the longterm goal is to be able to allow them to track coins if they can't shut Bitcoin down.

FinCEN actions certain will put the brakes on the rate of growth though.

The price drop is clearly due to Fincen's actions, at least in part. But I've been wrong before.
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June 16, 2013, 06:40:17 PM
 #118

Quote
Expect the number of legit dealers/exchanges in the US to shrink dramatically and the few that remains will be much larger and pass that very heavy state regulatory burden onto consumers in the form of higher fees.

And btc sales will be tied to a person's bank info, tainting the coin and allowing coin tracking to those with access to the bank's info. I think the longterm goal is to be able to allow them to track coins if they can't shut Bitcoin down.

FinCEN actions certain will put the brakes on the rate of growth though.

The price drop is clearly due to Fincen's actions, at least in part. But I've been wrong before.

tainting coins can NEVER be allowed.

it's an easy excuse for not catching the criminals in the first place.  just destroy the currency.
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June 16, 2013, 06:49:29 PM
 #119

tainting coins can NEVER be allowed.

Coinbase has been doing it for as long as they've been in business and people jumped on board. A perfectly good decentralized, P2P currency wasted on people who WANT to be tracked.
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June 16, 2013, 07:58:10 PM
 #120

tainting coins can NEVER be allowed.

Coinbase has been doing it for as long as they've been in business and people jumped on board. A perfectly good decentralized, P2P currency wasted on people who WANT to be tracked.

what exactly are they doing?

are they confiscating tainted coins when they enter their system?  or are they just labeling coins as tainted when they connect them to an address in their system discovered to be engaging in illicit activity?

if they are doing this then eventually everyone/investors will start bypassing their system.
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