Garr255/Werner - Auction shilling

[Nightowlace]

This thread is still going? 

[starsoccer9]

This thread is still going? 

Yup sadly

[bitcoinplay]

Why does one student decide who gets the scammer tag or not? Should there not be a group of people with legal background judging scammer accusations?

[starsoccer9]

Why does one student decide who gets the scammer tag or not? Should there not be a group of people with legal background judging scammer accusations?

I mentioned a court of imparital people should decide.

[nimda]

Yeah it's about time to unwatch this thread. It's getting a liiiiittle bit ridiculous in here.

[Garr255]

HE SAID HE'S SORRY, WTF dood!!!

Looks like everyone misses the part where he also gave 5 BTC to the victims.

Just fyi I am a victim, and can say I have gotten 0 coins and no pm telling me im able to get 5coins.

I will publicly state that if he wants to send me 5btc they can be sent to 1EcysP9UmvyW1zdD75noVdb8BVaRA7ZC8h

The above address is also linked to my otc ratings

5btc sent. Again, I sincerely apologize for my mistake and I am glad that I am financially able to overcompensate for the mistake.

Regards

[starsoccer9]

HE SAID HE'S SORRY, WTF dood!!!

Looks like everyone misses the part where he also gave 5 BTC to the victims.

Just fyi I am a victim, and can say I have gotten 0 coins and no pm telling me im able to get 5coins.

I will publicly state that if he wants to send me 5btc they can be sent to 1EcysP9UmvyW1zdD75noVdb8BVaRA7ZC8h

The above address is also linked to my otc ratings

5btc sent. Again, I sincerely apologize for my mistake and I am glad that I am financially able to overcompensate for the mistake.

Regards

I can confirm I see it. My client doesnt seem to see it tho. hmm weird ill wait a confirmation or 2. Anyways tho i think Gar255 and hope to see my asic soon, with 64ghash

[Darktongue]

Where is my 0.05 for reading upteen pages of this horseshit

[420]

But is there a reason that shilling and dupe accounts are not prohibited by the TOS? Is that an ideological choice?

Alt accounts are useful in some cases, and they can't be effectively banned anyway. People can always use Tor to evade detection. So banning alt accounts outright would hurt good people more than bad people.

If I happen to see someone abusing alt accounts to break forum rules or scam, I will do something about it. BCB and others know that I am often helpful in these matters. But it's impossible to catch even a majority of abusive alt accounts (especially since very few people have access to IP logs for privacy reasons), so it's best for people to stay on their guard and assume that scammers using alt accounts won't be caught.

that's always the best. for people to be weary and protect themselves, prepare for worst. Same argument in favor of the 2nd amendment. When you expect centralized top down control to remove all the dangers, thats when it becomes really dangerous

[John (John K.)]

...

John K. did show up, and took what seems like the fair stance on all of this, back on page 2

I personally agree that this is something bad, and that it should be looked into. I've always been against the notion of having sockies here, like I told theymos last time... Anyway, only theymos can do the checks here (barring Thomas Stefan of course). I'll PM and direct him to this thread.

I know.

What really disappointed me is John K. is taking theymos' coin as a mod.  His reputation was unblemished but now he is answering to theymos.

When (not if) John K. has to either obey his boss, or do the correct and ethical thing, what will he do?  I want to believe he will do the correct and ethical thing but we won't know if he doesn't. Unless of course, Garr is involved with a sock puppet and screws it up.

Until that day, John K. is no longer as clean as he was.  There will always be the doubt that he will put theymos' interests ahead of _anyone_ who employs him for escrow, etc.

yeah, this shit storm is getting worse

Well, as a moderator here, my personal responsibility and power here is solely limited to moderating posts/threads, and more recently, the banning of spammers. We (moderators) cannot check IPs (hence sockies), read PM's, query the database, give out scammer tags, and everything else.

That said, I do not have any meatspace ties with either of the other moderating team, and Garr here, and have never met with them in person at all. I'm living in the other part of the world right now, and while I would like to meet many of those from this forum, my geographical location restricts me from doing so. I certainly won't, and will not act against my own beliefs otherwise, and it is downright illogical and wrong to assume that I will obey everything here if theymos is off his rocker.

Also, while I am against of the entire notion of having alts/sockies here, I can certainly understand it that it would be downright impossible to ban such accounts especially with the advent of VPN's and TOR. It's better to state clearly that the forum is not against and actively catching alt-account users, then to give newbies a false sense of security thinking that the alt account issue is under control here. (which it is not, of course)


* God, I'd like to sticky the first paragraph with all of the requests I've been getting.

[Nightowlace]

...

John K. did show up, and took what seems like the fair stance on all of this, back on page 2

I personally agree that this is something bad, and that it should be looked into. I've always been against the notion of having sockies here, like I told theymos last time... Anyway, only theymos can do the checks here (barring Thomas Stefan of course). I'll PM and direct him to this thread.

I know.

What really disappointed me is John K. is taking theymos' coin as a mod.  His reputation was unblemished but now he is answering to theymos.

When (not if) John K. has to either obey his boss, or do the correct and ethical thing, what will he do?  I want to believe he will do the correct and ethical thing but we won't know if he doesn't. Unless of course, Garr is involved with a sock puppet and screws it up.

Until that day, John K. is no longer as clean as he was.  There will always be the doubt that he will put theymos' interests ahead of _anyone_ who employs him for escrow, etc.

yeah, this shit storm is getting worse

Seriously? John K. is IMO one of the most honest, fair and trustworthy people on this forum. I have delt with him on numerous occasions and HIGHLY recommend.

[Darktongue]

What the fuck.  Dude pays so we have to play this soap opera out by attacking john. Fuck ke dead some of you are pathetic.  LoL

[ibminer]

Well, as a moderator here, my personal responsibility and power here is solely limited to moderating posts/threads, and more recently, the banning of spammers. We (moderators) cannot check IPs (hence sockies), read PM's, query the database, give out scammer tags, and everything else.

That said, I do not have any meatspace ties with either of the other moderating team, and Garr here, and have never met with them in person at all. I'm living in the other part of the world right now, and while I would like to meet many of those from this forum, my geographical location restricts me from doing so. I certainly won't, and will not act against my own beliefs otherwise, and it is downright illogical and wrong to assume that I will obey everything here if theymos is off his rocker.

Also, while I am against of the entire notion of having alts/sockies here, I can certainly understand it that it would be downright impossible to ban such accounts especially with the advent of VPN's and TOR. It's better to state clearly that the forum is not against and actively catching alt-account users, then to give newbies a false sense of security thinking that the alt account issue is under control here. (which it is not, of course)


* God, I'd like to sticky the first paragraph with all of the requests I've been getting.

Alt accounts are useful in some cases, and they can't be effectively banned anyway. People can always use Tor to evade detection. So banning alt accounts outright would hurt good people more than bad people.

If I happen to see someone abusing alt accounts to break forum rules or scam, I will do something about it. BCB and others know that I am often helpful in these matters. But it's impossible to catch even a majority of abusive alt accounts (especially since very few people have access to IP logs for privacy reasons), so it's best for people to stay on their guard and assume that scammers using alt accounts won't be caught.

It would definitely be better to state clearly the forums policy on alt accounts... if I had never read this thread, I would have never believed this to be the policy. ( I would also have saved many hours of my life   ). It really creates an entirely different environment in my mind and I would have handled myself a lot differently when using this forum.

I completely understand its impossible to stop/eliminate, but I just wish I could change theymos's quote above to say "If I happen to see someone abusing alt accounts, I will label the accounts with 'fake' or 'untrustworthy' or 'shady'." as opposed to just waiting for them to be caught doing something (if they are even caught)... I guess I am just not seeing the positive in not taking any action when discovering it. Deceitfulness may be 'useful', but it doesn't make it right.

That being said, it isn't my forum.  It is what it is.  

[Mytche]

Auction schilling is just dumb and bad business.  I don't think I want to know how much it happens do I?

[bigdude]

...

John K. did show up, and took what seems like the fair stance on all of this, back on page 2

I personally agree that this is something bad, and that it should be looked into. I've always been against the notion of having sockies here, like I told theymos last time... Anyway, only theymos can do the checks here (barring Thomas Stefan of course). I'll PM and direct him to this thread.

I know.

What really disappointed me is John K. is taking theymos' coin as a mod.  His reputation was unblemished but now he is answering to theymos.

When (not if) John K. has to either obey his boss, or do the correct and ethical thing, what will he do?  I want to believe he will do the correct and ethical thing but we won't know if he doesn't. Unless of course, Garr is involved with a sock puppet and screws it up.

Until that day, John K. is no longer as clean as he was.  There will always be the doubt that he will put theymos' interests ahead of _anyone_ who employs him for escrow, etc.

yeah, this shit storm is getting worse

Well, as a moderator here, my personal responsibility and power here is solely limited to moderating posts/threads, and more recently, the banning of spammers. We (moderators) cannot check IPs (hence sockies), read PM's, query the database, give out scammer tags, and everything else.

That said, I do not have any meatspace ties with either of the other moderating team, and Garr here, and have never met with them in person at all. I'm living in the other part of the world right now, and while I would like to meet many of those from this forum, my geographical location restricts me from doing so. I certainly won't, and will not act against my own beliefs otherwise, and it is downright illogical and wrong to assume that I will obey everything here if theymos is off his rocker.

Also, while I am against of the entire notion of having alts/sockies here, I can certainly understand it that it would be downright impossible to ban such accounts especially with the advent of VPN's and TOR. It's better to state clearly that the forum is not against and actively catching alt-account users, then to give newbies a false sense of security thinking that the alt account issue is under control here. (which it is not, of course)




* God, I'd like to sticky the first paragraph with all of the requests I've been getting.

I lol'd

[Nightowlace]

Auction schilling is just dumb and bad business.  I don't think I want to know how much it happens do I?

^^ This

With the prices mining equipment goes for around here it makes you wonder.

[PrintMule]

fyi, shill bidding is a felony in the United states, so there again, whether or not it was a real scam is subject to conjecture/opinion.
sources: My uncle runs an auction house in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Aha! That's what's your beef, I get it now. My prediction on your location also was correct, without even looking in your profile.

[r3wt]

fyi, shill bidding is a felony in the United states, so there again, whether or not it was a real scam is subject to conjecture/opinion.
sources: My uncle runs an auction house in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Aha! That's what's your beef, I get it now. My prediction on your location also was correct, without even looking in your profile.

ok

[Rampion]

Did Gar255 put a gun to his head? No one forced the bidders to do anything.

Having an alt that artificially raises the bid price is similar to a secret reserve price in an auction. There's nothing inherently wrong with it

In any case, alts aren't against forum rules, and scammer tags are typically only given when an explicit agreement is broken. Garr255 never promised not to bid on his own auctions. He never even promised to honor the results of the auctions. Without contracts that say otherwise, auctions are only devices to assist in price negotiations.

I think this should be stockied in order for everybody to know forums policy.

No gun to head, no scam.

Shill bidding is allowed.

Auctions mean nothing unless everything is agreed on beforehand, including the fact that the auctioneer will honor the winner.

I don't know if you realize that new members see the auction subforums and might think its a serious business. There are business transactions conducted in here that are based on trust, and it has been demostrated that this trust is not broken if a long time member uses deceiving tactics and blatantly lies to the community and/or his business counterparts to pursue personal gain.

If what Garr255 did does not deserve an "untrustworthy" tag, then what does? Serious question: please mods let us the regular folks know what kind of behavior is needed for an untrustworthy tag to be applied. Money and ethics are at stake in here.

And please consider that this shitstorm was triggered by a decision that a huge part of this community doesn't understand.

[kibblesnbits]

Let the trust system do its intended job.  I posted a question on Garrs auction, fully intending to bid (one of the reasons why I'm probably more pissed off than others). The trust system allows for BTC that could have been lost.  If it weren't for Inaba, the two original high bidders would have lost 2BTC.  Even though they were compensated, it's only because Inaba caught them and the rest of the community aggressively pursued it.  Please remember Garr confessed only when his feet were held to the fire.

I was recently contacted by Garr to remove my negative trust rating for him.  I declined, based on the "could have lost" clause.  I would recommend the original two highest bidders to consider this action.

No punishment and no negative rating will only cause the thieves to flourish.  If he wants to rebuild his trust, let it take longer than a few days.