What do you believe is moral?

[mprep]

You still didn't answer my last question. Also don't think that everyone thinks that giving brings happiness, my idealist friend.

It is not idealist, there are plenty of studies to show that people who give charitably are happier and happier people give, creating a happiness loop.

If given the choice of being robbed or giving to something that you care about, which would you choose? Which do you believe would bring you more happiness?

Many people choose the third option - not give anything to anyone.

Morality as a concept is changing: some things become moral, some - immoral.

No it's not.  There's what's right and what's wrong.   When slavery was around there was a small amount of people around who knew it was wrong.  The rest of society either didn't know because they hadn't thought about it or used the excuse that ii had been around a long time, or that the majority approved or that it was necessary or some combination of those.  Unfortunately, that's all it was, an excuse.  Same is true for today for taxation.  Either people haven't thought about it or they're making some excuse for it because they either benefit or they don't have the imagination to think of life without it.   But it's just an excuse, because there are people around pointing out the immorality of it just like there was back in the heyday of slavery.

And the same is true of human sacrifice or any number of accepted immoral traditions throughout history.   

Man started in this world not knowing much and built all these traditions upon bad information.  We now live in a more enlightened age.  It's time that we were brave enough to recognise what is immoral rather than kowtowing to something just because the majority is currently going along with it.  But history shows that only a minority stand up for what's right whereas the majority just go along with whatever they are told.

Might be. But I don't think the society is bright enough to accept voluntary payments to the government. Whenever I step out in the street, I see what kind of people are walking. Definitely not the charitable ones.

[crumbs]

Morality as a concept is changing: some things become moral, some - immoral.

No it's not.  There's what's right and what's wrong.   When slavery was around there was a small amount of people around who knew it was wrong.  The rest of society either didn't know because they hadn't thought about it or used the excuse that ii had been around a long time, or that the majority approved or that it was necessary or some combination of those.  Unfortunately, that's all it was, an excuse.  Same is true for today for taxation.  Either people haven't thought about it or they're making some excuse for it because they either benefit or they don't have the imagination to think of life without it.   But it's just an excuse, because there are people around pointing out the immorality of it just like there was back in the heyday of slavery.

And the same is true of human sacrifice or any number of accepted immoral traditions throughout history.  

Man started in this world not knowing much and built all these traditions upon bad information.  We now live in a more enlightened age.  It's time that we were brave enough to recognise what is immoral rather than kowtowing to something just because the majority is currently going along with it.  But history shows that only a minority stand up for what's right whereas the majority just go along with whatever they are told.

In other words, you're saying that Americans "didn't know" that slavery was wrong, but found out during the Civil War?  The Confederate States, after having textbooks & sound reasoning hurled at them by the Union Army, completed their learnings, realizing how wrong slavery & their "screw you guys, I'm going home" attitude were, freed the slaves & embraced the Union?  And, just like with slavery, we simply need to educate the great unwashed on the evols of taxation, and taxes will disappear?

There always were, and always will be, people pointing out the immorality of just about everything -- from atheism to unwed sex to lending for profit to homosexuality to taxation.  None of that implies anything, certainly not that those opinions are valid, or that they will someday become cannon.  

[luv2drnkbr]

Ya the people who created that survey don't understand the purpose of taxes

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[...]
Exactly...people in the US donate more. Who has the lowest tax burden?
Taxes and the government providing everything stifles charity and giving. There is an actual human need to give and it has been found that the happiest people are those that give.
[...]

Please don't confuse charity with giving.  When you give your daughter a birthday present, you're not being charitable.  You may write it off as a charitable deduction, knowing your views on taxation, though i doubt that trick will get anything more than a snide giggle from the tax man.  When you throw a coin at a wino -- that is charity.

Charity is an indicator of a broken society -- if not for the downtrodden, there would be no need for it.  It perpetuates a culture of dependence, power and social disparity, and perpetuates status quo (Only saints give away *all* that they have, making beggars rich & themselves poor.  The rest of us make sure to keep enough to not fall to the level of our charity cases.)

In a society where wealth is evenly distributed, even the thought of charity is laughable.  Who, exactly, should be charitable, and towards whom?  If you're talking about giving presents & helping a friend rig a sailboat -- don't worry, you'll always be able to do that -- that ain't charity.

[wdmw]

Ya the people who created that survey don't understand the purpose of taxes

It would be difficult to deduce the survey author's understanding of the purpose of taxes from the survey, since its about the morality of taxation.

[Rassah]

I don't think the society is bright enough to accept voluntary payments to the government. Whenever I step out in the street, I see what kind of people are walking. Definitely not the charitable ones.

So, why do you pay your internet/phone company? Or your electric company? People are going to want to pay for government services they use, or ones they believe would be beneficial to society. Even from a security and medical perspective, it costs way way WAY less to take a homeless bum off the street and put him into a shack with a bit of food money, than it does to keep policing him to make sure he doesn't steal or cause issues, and to treat him for major medical issues he gets from living outside without food. I would think security and medical companies would implement this to lower their bottom line, but this is something that governments don't often realize, and thus ignore.

[Elwar]

Ya the people who created that survey don't understand the purpose of taxes

I created the survey and I know the purpose of stealing. To get your money.

Government spending is wonderful...I love getting government money, please give me more and more and more. I will take whatever the government gives me. Giving little Johnny a new kidney...that is so awesome. Give money to all countries of the world. End poverty, end homelessness. Awesome. Give it all away.

Ok, now that we got the whole part about spending money being great. Which is what you focus on. I would like to at least address the act of stealing people's money.

Do you believe it is ok for you to steal from me?

It is a simple question, some people here have indicated that stealing is just fine. Ok, that is your own personal moral view. Ironically enough the majority does not share your belief that stealing is fine. But to each their own, I respect your right to have your own minority opinion as a supporter of stealing.

[Elwar]

Many people choose the third option - not give anything to anyone.

Ahh...the ability to choose.

[crumbs]

I don't think the society is bright enough to accept voluntary payments to the government. Whenever I step out in the street, I see what kind of people are walking. Definitely not the charitable ones.

[...]Even from a security and medical perspective, it costs way way WAY less to take a homeless bum off the street and put him into a shack with a bit of food money, than it does to keep policing him to make sure he doesn't steal of cause issues, and to treat him for major medical issues he gets from living outside without food. I would think security and medical companies would implement this to lower their bottom line, but this is something that governments don't often realize, and thus ignore.

Shooting him & grinding him into dog food is more economically sound still.  Profit.
Edit:  If he's a bum, i doubt he's current on his private army bills, so don't worry about repercussions
Edit2:  Medical companies are worried about bum's health costs?  Socialized medicine much?

[mprep]

I don't think the society is bright enough to accept voluntary payments to the government. Whenever I step out in the street, I see what kind of people are walking. Definitely not the charitable ones.

So, why do you pay your internet/phone company? Or your electric company? People are going to want to pay for government services they use, or ones they believe would be beneficial to society. Even from a security and medical perspective, it costs way way WAY less to take a homeless bum off the street and put him into a shack with a bit of food money, than it does to keep policing him to make sure he doesn't steal of cause issues, and to treat him for major medical issues he gets from living outside without food. I would think security and medical companies would implement this to lower their bottom line, but this is something that governments don't often realize, and thus ignore.

People won't pay. Not at least here where I live. They will probably steal electricity, water, internet. Hell, some of them are doing it now. Maybe US has some kind of utopian society but I know the society I live in too well to think that would work.

[Elwar]

This survey has shown me that I need to change professions and become a professional thief. As long as I call it a tax, many people will be ok with it.

Just stand at an ATM with a gun and when someone withdraws some money hold the gun up to them and tell them that I am taxing their money. They will gladly hand over their money as a good citizen.

It also stuns me about how people are ok with stealing. Which does not mean that we need to try to educate anyone, but better protect our money from being stolen. Hence, why I support Bitcoin even more. A cold storage wallet that cannot be stolen is the best way to  prevent theft of your money.

If I were black back during the days of slavery I would be encouraging gun ownership and self protection from being kidnapped. This day and age of moral theft requires bitcoins.

[Elwar]

I don't think the society is bright enough to accept voluntary payments to the government. Whenever I step out in the street, I see what kind of people are walking. Definitely not the charitable ones.

So, why do you pay your internet/phone company? Or your electric company? People are going to want to pay for government services they use, or ones they believe would be beneficial to society. Even from a security and medical perspective, it costs way way WAY less to take a homeless bum off the street and put him into a shack with a bit of food money, than it does to keep policing him to make sure he doesn't steal of cause issues, and to treat him for major medical issues he gets from living outside without food. I would think security and medical companies would implement this to lower their bottom line, but this is something that governments don't often realize, and thus ignore.

People won't pay. Not at least here where I live. They will probably steal electricity, water, internet. Hell, some of them are doing it now. Maybe US has some kind of utopian society but I know the society I live in too well to think that would work.

Sounds like you live in a dictatorship or socialist country.

My country is full of people who believe that if the government does not pay for it, nobody will pay for it as well.

But when they have to, they do.

Even my garbage service is not government run. You pay a garbage service to come pick up your trash. Otherwise, you would be stuck with trash piling up in your living room. Sure, some people throw their garbage in dumpsters or even take their garbage to the dump themselves. But the convenience of only spending $10 a month to have a company come out twice a week to pick up your garbage is so much easier.

[Rassah]

People won't pay. Not at least here where I live. They will probably steal electricity, water, internet. Hell, some of them are doing it now. Maybe US has some kind of utopian society but I know the society I live in too well to think that would work.

Not paying to support bums is a benefit in itself, too. People seeing homeless bums who were irresponsible with their money will likely be scared into doing things like buying only what they need, saving for emergencies, and working with neighbors to avoid or overcome any issues. Things people in countries with little government support do (compare the family and savings culture of Chinese to the family and savings culture of Europeans and Americans who get Social Security and pensions). People don't learn responsibilities if they aren't shown consequences of ignoring them.

[kokjo]

Take this quick 10 (or less) question morality survey.

http://kwiksurveys.com/s.asp?sid=9fgng77f80xbtr9177028


Tell us how far you got.

I answered no to the first question.

Everything that is beneficial to me is morally okay. including stealing, raping, and unprovoked murder.

In most cases its just not beneficial to me as for some odd reason gets pissed at people doing stuff they consider immoral, and thereby forcing their moral views upon others.

[Rassah]

I answered no to the first question.

Everything that is beneficial to me is morally okay. including stealing, raping, and unprovoked murder.

In most cases its just not beneficial to me as for some odd reason gets pissed at people doing stuff they consider immoral, and thereby forcing their moral views upon others.

How are you still not in jail? 

[Elwar]

People don't learn responsibilities if they aren't shown consequences of ignoring them.

This.

Harry Browne: Set Them Free

The entire effort to wed morality and politics is based on the assumption that there are immoral or irresponsible people who can't be bent into shape unless the government does it.

Yes, there are people who won't act responsibly. There are people who have no regard for the consequences of their own acts. There are people who seem to be incapable of behaving wisely or benevolently.

Politicians exploit these people to justify rigid controls on your life. Because some people won't plan for their old age, you must be forced into Social Security. Because some people will do funny things after looking at dirty pictures on the Internet, your access to the Internet must be restricted.

So what should we do about people who won't take responsibility for their own actions? I believe the answer is simple:

Set them free.

Give them the freedom to make their own decisions, to face the consequences of their own acts, to see for themselves what their actions do to others, and how others respond to them.

Only free people have an incentive to be virtuous. Only people who bear the consequences of their own acts will care about those consequences.

A free society rewards virtue and punishes irresponsibility. Government does just the opposite.

What do we do about people who might not plan for their own retirement?

Set them free.

Let each person know that his future depends largely on his own actions. If younger people see some older people who haven't planned ahead and have to rely on charity, the young will be more likely to provide for the future. Today when someone plans poorly, the only consequence younger people see is a call for more government.

What do we do about people who are insensitive to other people?

Set them free.

Let other people shun them or respect them for what they do. Let them feel the results of being civil or uncivil.

Freedom & Responsibility

It is often said that freedom and responsibility are two sides of the same coin — that if you want freedom, you must first accept the responsibility that goes with it.

The truth is simpler. Freedom and responsibility aren't two sides of the same thing; one isn't a precondition for the other. They are the same thing.

Freedom is responsibility. Responsibility is experiencing the consequences of your own acts — not the consequences of others' acts or making others pay for what you do.

And that's what freedom is. Without government to force others to pay for your pleasures or mistakes, and without forcing you to pay for what others do, you are a free, responsible human being.

Freedom and responsibility are inseparably linked — not because they should be, but because they are. Responsibility accompanies freedom, whether or not you want it to.

We are told America must have a moral revival before we can have greater freedom — that people must be educated to be responsible before they can be free. This puts the cart before the horse.

If we expect a government program to make people responsible, we will wait forever.

We don't need a moral revival, we don't need politicians making moral decisions for us. We need do only one thing to induce people to act more responsibly:

Set them free.

[kokjo]

I answered no to the first question.

Everything that is beneficial to me is morally okay. including stealing, raping, and unprovoked murder.

In most cases its just not beneficial to me as for some odd reason gets pissed at people doing stuff they consider immoral, and thereby forcing their moral views upon others.

How are you still not in jail? 

is it good for me doing stuff that could get me in jail?

[mprep]

I don't think the society is bright enough to accept voluntary payments to the government. Whenever I step out in the street, I see what kind of people are walking. Definitely not the charitable ones.

So, why do you pay your internet/phone company? Or your electric company? People are going to want to pay for government services they use, or ones they believe would be beneficial to society. Even from a security and medical perspective, it costs way way WAY less to take a homeless bum off the street and put him into a shack with a bit of food money, than it does to keep policing him to make sure he doesn't steal of cause issues, and to treat him for major medical issues he gets from living outside without food. I would think security and medical companies would implement this to lower their bottom line, but this is something that governments don't often realize, and thus ignore.

People won't pay. Not at least here where I live. They will probably steal electricity, water, internet. Hell, some of them are doing it now. Maybe US has some kind of utopian society but I know the society I live in too well to think that would work.

Sounds like you live in a dictatorship or socialist country.

My country is full of people who believe that if the government does not pay for it, nobody will pay for it as well.

But when they have to, they do.

Even my garbage service is not government run. You pay a garbage service to come pick up your trash. Otherwise, you would be stuck with trash piling up in your living room. Sure, some people throw their garbage in dumpsters or even take their garbage to the dump themselves. But the convenience of only spending $10 a month to have a company come out twice a week to pick up your garbage is so much easier.

I live in a post-socialist country where the people aren't wealthy.Getting a job hefe isn't easy and people already are fed up with paying anyone. So good luck with your non tax revolution because it isn't going to come any time soon. Ffs, we only have 23 years since we regained our independence again

[Elwar]

Take this quick 10 (or less) question morality survey.

http://kwiksurveys.com/s.asp?sid=9fgng77f80xbtr9177028


Tell us how far you got.

I answered no to the first question.

Everything that is beneficial to me is morally okay. including stealing, raping, and unprovoked murder.

In most cases its just not beneficial to me as for some odd reason gets pissed at people doing stuff they consider immoral, and thereby forcing their moral views upon others.

Many people agree with you. They just hide behind labels such as taxes, concubines and fighting terror.

[Elwar]

I live in a post-socialist country where the people aren't wealthy.

Ya...socialism will do that.

My country is currently socialist, they will be poor as well.