Bitcoin ATM: any news after San Diego?

[legitnick]

I remember hearing about this a lot, then nothing. Strange, I wonder if it wasnt successful :/

[SilverVigilante]

i say we see some BitcoinATM's pop up in Canada first.
https://www.goldsilverbitcoin.com/north-american-union-shattered-canada-goes-laissez-faire-on-bitcoin-us-goes-draconian/

[kik1977]

Remember, for FinCEN you have to know your customer as well.

How are you going to verify and ensure the guy buying $20 worth of bitcoin is who he says he is?

I long thought about BTC-ATMs and KYC regulations and indeed it looks like a great obstacle to their adoption.

But then I thought about a recent trip I did to US and here I have my question..
Go to any Walmart and you find hundreds of "prepaid cards": I mean open loop prepaid cards, those that have the Visa or Mastercard logo. They also call them "gift cards". I watched people buying them and no ID was required, no identification of the customer, no questions. I asked and they told me they are ready to use, no after purchase online registration or similar.

That's what I cannot grasp: where is the difference? Why I can buy anonymously a prepaid card that I can use almost everywhere but they want to put all this limitations if I want to buy bitcoins?

As I said before, talking to literally hundreds of people about Bitcoin I noticed the biggest obstacle for many is the acquisition of bitcoins and I believe something like an ATM is the "missing link".

[jdbtracker]

Those are the gate keepers, you can do anything you like regardless of who you are but Bitcoin is so disruptive to their natural state of mind that they have to do something about it... Basically Visa and Mastercard get the go ahead because they are a known brand... Bitcoin is confusing the gate keepers so they are trying to apply everything to them. You could probably complain and attract their attention to the gift cards and have them removed... or you can get a really useful tip on how to bypass the system through a loop hole; just have to ask.

[BCB]

Remember, for FinCEN you have to know your customer as well.

How are you going to verify and ensure the guy buying $20 worth of bitcoin is who he says he is?

I long thought about BTC-ATMs and KYC regulations and indeed it looks like a great obstacle to their adoption.

But then I thought about a recent trip I did to US and here I have my question..
Go to any Walmart and you find hundreds of "prepaid cards": I mean open loop prepaid cards, those that have the Visa or Mastercard logo. They also call them "gift cards". I watched people buying them and no ID was required, no identification of the customer, no questions. I asked and they told me they are ready to use, no after purchase online registration or similar.

That's what I cannot grasp: where is the difference? Why I can buy anonymously a prepaid card that I can use almost everywhere but they want to put all this limitations if I want to buy bitcoins?

As I said before, talking to literally hundreds of people about Bitcoin I noticed the biggest obstacle for many is the acquisition of bitcoins and I believe something like an ATM is the "missing link".

kik1977,

Good point. 

1.  This is an example of selective enforcement of regulation. 

2.  This industry (the Prepaid-Industry) is much larger and more organized then the bitcoin community is and as such is better able to help lead the conversation with regulates and law makers in this space.  Many major US banks and corporations are involved in this space and rely on income from these fees which generate significant revenue.
http://www.nerdwallet.com/prepaid/


3.  This still doesn't mean there is not great concern that this is an entry point for laundering money and authorities are certainly looking at this. 

http://thehill.com/blogs/regwatch/pending-regs/290875-regulators-target-money-laundering-with-prepaid-cards

[kik1977]

3.  This still doesn't mean there is not great concern that this is an entry point for laundering money and authorities are certainly looking at this. 

I know BCB, I followed the topic in the last few years and from time to time I see some article like this (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/11/07/department-of-homeland-security-to-scan-payment-cards-at-borders-and-airports/). Everytime it seems that something is going to happen very soon but the time goes by and still I see no regulations put in place.
Then you see how quickly (more or less, but quicker than with Bitcoin) they jumped on Bitcoin to try and regulate it. The reason could be exactly what you said, "selective enforcement of regulation"!

Having said that, I wonder if there is anyone in the forum who is actually involved in the ATMs project and want to share some info about it, like at which stage they are, what are the problems they're facing, etc.

[dave111223]

The problem is that all the companies developing Bitcoin ATMs are located in a country that will never allow such a machine to exist.

Once some companies in Asia take up the task it will probably go from drawing board to street corner in a much shortly time.

[kik1977]

The problem is that all the companies developing Bitcoin ATMs are located in a country that will never allow such a machine to exist.

Once some companies in Asia take up the task it will probably go from drawing board to street corner in a much shortly time.

I know what you mean, but please consider that those companies are simply the ATMs' manufacturer. If they sell them to a Chinese company to be put in Beijing, then Chinese regulations will apply.

[legitnick]

The problem is that all the companies developing Bitcoin ATMs are located in a country that will never allow such a machine to exist.

Once some companies in Asia take up the task it will probably go from drawing board to street corner in a much shortly time.

Last time I checked China was still "Communist" I dont see the chinese government allowing bitcoin ATM's as it takes money out of their own state currency.

In the United States there is no law against a bitcoin atm so its not the countries fault.

It seems like not enough people are using the ATM's then expected.

[TObject]

Staples also sells prepaid credit cards that can be used anywhere. Heaven for embezzlers – order office supplies, and take your wife to a lobster dinner.

[threeip]

Staples also sells prepaid credit cards that can be used anywhere. Heaven for embezzlers – order office supplies, and take your wife to a lobster dinner.

As far as i know only the reloadable cards require ID to purchase. The once-off cards (which must be less than $500USD) do not require ID etc.

Can someone just take a food vending machine and put Casi coins etc in it? You could even argue it was the coin provider facilitating the exchange, maybe, as long as they knew what was going on.

[kik1977]

The problem is that all the companies developing Bitcoin ATMs are located in a country that will never allow such a machine to exist.

Once some companies in Asia take up the task it will probably go from drawing board to street corner in a much shortly time.

Last time I checked China was still "Communist" I dont see the chinese government allowing bitcoin ATM's as it takes money out of their own state currency.

In the United States there is no law against a bitcoin atm so its not the countries fault.

It seems like not enough people are using the ATM's then expected.

That's true, even though recently the Chinese Gov "allowed" this to be broadcasted on the national (and Gov controlled) TV: http://bitcoinexaminer.org/can-china-become-the-new-bitcoin-leading-country/

[kik1977]

Staples also sells prepaid credit cards that can be used anywhere. Heaven for embezzlers – order office supplies, and take your wife to a lobster dinner.

As far as i know only the reloadable cards require ID to purchase. The once-off cards (which must be less than $500USD) do not require ID etc.

Can someone just take a food vending machine and put Casi coins etc in it? You could even argue it was the coin provider facilitating the exchange, maybe, as long as they knew what was going on.

Threeip you're absolutely right! But is there any limit to the number of cards you can buy? No, AFAIK. So not a big problem if you want to use them for illicit purpouses..

[threeip]

I guess arms dealers/Wikileaks don't/can't take Visa?

[dave111223]

The problem is that all the companies developing Bitcoin ATMs are located in a country that will never allow such a machine to exist.

Once some companies in Asia take up the task it will probably go from drawing board to street corner in a much shortly time.

Last time I checked China was still "Communist" I dont see the chinese government allowing bitcoin ATM's as it takes money out of their own state currency.

In the United States there is no law against a bitcoin atm so its not the countries fault.

It seems like not enough people are using the ATM's then expected.

For example; I'm in Thailand.  I guarantee if could plonk down a bunch of ATMs at malls and it would be at least a few years before any government agent asked any questions.  At which point a back hander would probably buy me a few more years before I had to answer any real questions.

Sadly I lack the capital and skills required to maintain ATMs (I'm guessing the manufacturers will not be flying out from the US for onsite support?)

In the US, as someone previously mentioned, some agency would be loading your ATM into a van 15 minutes after you set it up.

A few factors come into play to make developing countries more viable for an ATM:
1) It's a freer market in general
2) Governments are slower/less inclined to get involved in new technologies.
3) Corruption can be used to bypass laws

You say Bitcoin ATMs are bad for the "state", but you fail to see that Bitcoin ATMs might be good for the local bureaucrat that has a shiny new gold chain and a hot tub.

[kik1977]

Some news from the thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=248692.0, it's a pity they didn't post it here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23150740

Apparently there was a BTC ATM on the 39th floor above Canary Wharf: "I found a cash machine with a difference. This ATM chews up your £10 notes rather than spewing them out, and in return you get a computer code. This is the world's first Bitcoin cash machine and if the people showing it to me are to be believed, it shows us the future of money"

The place is the venue hosting the Bitcoin London conference, the biggest event about the crypto currency staged in the UK.
Is it just a demo ATM or are Automated Teller Machines ready to invade our streets? How did the guys at the Bitcoin London Conference get the authorisations (if any)?

[Perseus353]

From yesterday's conference in London, this is a picture I took of the demo machine by Josh and Zach Harvey of Lamassu. (http://lamassubtc.com/)



You scan the QR code of your wallet and then feed it cash -- and a bitcoin equivalent then gets credited to your wallet. The whole process takes seconds, and you then get another QR code of the transaction that you can verify on the blockchain.

It works pretty well. The source of bitcoins is their own stash and the price updates itself according to a weighted average of several exchanges. It can be set for different currencies and yesterday it was obviously set to sterling.

This was a prototype, but they're going to be selling these to merchants who can hook it up to their wallets.

[kik1977]

From yesterday's conference in London, this is a picture I took of the demo machine by Josh and Zach Harvey of Lamassu. (http://lamassubtc.com/)

You scan the QR code of your wallet and then feed it cash -- and a bitcoin equivalent then gets credited to your wallet. The whole process takes seconds, and you then get another QR code of the transaction that you can verify on the blockchain.

It works pretty well. The source of bitcoins is their own stash and the price updates itself according to a weighted average of several exchanges. It can be set for different currencies and yesterday it was obviously set to sterling.

This was a prototype, but they're going to be selling these to merchants who can hook it up to their wallets.

Thanks Perseus, it's very nice to hear from someone who was actually there at the conference. May I ask you a question? Apart from the display of the demo machine and their plans for the future, have you heard any discussion about the regulations sought for placing these machines?
It should be easier than putting an ATM since, strictly speaking, those are not ATMs since they allow you to buy bitcoins for fiat currency but not the other way around.. or maybe I haven't understood it correctly? Do they give the possibility to withdraw cash for bitcoins?

Thanks a lot...

[becoin]

Apparently there was a BTC ATM on the 39th floor above Canary Wharf: "I found a cash machine with a difference. This ATM chews up your £10 notes rather than spewing them out, and in return you get a computer code. This is the world's first Bitcoin cash machine and if the people showing it to me are to be believed, it shows us the future of money

As a vending machine selling digital product they must pay VAT. Do they?

[MagicBit15]

I thought this was a great idea too, what a great way to get people associate with bitcoin and implement it slowly into everyday and online use. Not to mention quick cash!!