Historic Cryptogenic Bullion thread - CLOSED

[IMZ]

I am reading 'cause I need to understand trading on Cryptsy.

Feel free to laugh: Indiamikezulu divides labour. I do the networking and analyses, but had never traded a crypto until a couple of weeks ago. Wa ha ha

And are there any Australian CGB-ers here? Even just two of us can start working on a development project. Come and help me at the Commercial Development Workshop over at the Reddit rally point.

Next Wednesday we are doing our first 'lock and pays,' in an Australian supermarket. (Litecoin. Not CGB yet. Stay tuned.) We will have the QR code taped to the front counter of two businesses. You open your wallet; open the scanner; lock on to the QR; enter the amount owed; then swing your smartphone around so the checkout operator can verify the amount. Then she presses the 'Send' buttion.

Mark Blair

[papersheepdog]

CGB Core Team Weekly Update – May 14, 2014

Please also see the Reddit post for further discussion.

Cryptogenic Bullion is a unique crypto and to understand its value, research is required. This is one of the problems that we face as a community when trying to explain the merits of CGB. Where most other coins are caught up in a massive churning of pumps, excitement, scams, mining, and other daily activities of the crypto-scene, Cryptogenic Bullion seems to sit patiently on the sidelines and observe these generally undisciplined behaviors. We would like to quickly explain some of the reasons why promotion and adoption of CGB is very different from most other crypto-currencies.  
  
As explained in this post on Reddit, CGB derives its value by holding it as a more stable store of wealth. This contrasts starkly with what gives most other cryptos out there value, which is the size of the userbase who is holding to spend. Cryptogenic Bullion investors are holding to store wealth or anticipate such demand and there are many factors which better suit CGB for this role above the others. Please see the section on CGB’s Life Cycle on the Learn More page of the Official Website for more detailed information on the bigger picture of CGB and how it builds value.
  
Let’s quickly go over the motivations for holding CGB compared to the motivations for holding a daily spending currency such as Doge. CGB is designed to be held to store wealth. The more people who are holding CGB to store wealth, the more scarce CGB will be and greater the unit value. Currencies such as Doge are designed to be spent and used on a daily bases. The more people who are holding Doge to spend, the more scarce Doge becomes and the greater the unit value. Notice that investors can profit from increases in these types of demand, and purchasing accordingly in order to sell at the higher prices once demand is realized. These two use cases are fundamentally different and require a different approach to promote the adoption of each.  

Here are a few questions that have been recently asked and some guidance on how to proceed:  
  
Is merchant development a goal for CGB?
As CGB is intended to store wealth and not to expand through retail activity directly, merchant development is a goal for CGB but not in the typical way. Our strategy would be to encourage merchants who already accept other crypto to store their wealth in CGB, and consider accepting CGB alongside their existing currency selection.  
  
Is getting listed on more exchanges a goal for CGB?  
While it doesn’t hurt to be listed on more exchanges, low volume exchanges with a small user base offer very little value to the CGB community. Exchanges with a large user base would be helpful, especially if there are traders willing to make profit from arbitrage providing liquidity to this user base, and activity on CGB trading pairs.  

Does low current volume and price hinder CGB’s advance as a store of wealth?  
I urge everyone who asks this question to read CGB’s Life Cycle to understand the transition that CGB is currently undergoing. We also have to also look at the bigger picture of the crypto-markets which have suffered overall from Bitcoin’s recent decline. These are normal cycles that happen. When capital begins to flow inward again on a massive scale, it may be triggered by worries of hyperinflation, or other fiat currency problems. Fleeing investors may be looking for an asset which does not have the heavy inflationary tax of the very system they are fleeing. Cryptogenic Bullion will be perfectly poised, having completed its volatile inflationary phase, and awaiting the inflows of its capitalization phase. Our strategy is optimized for CGB to benefit from the increasing troubles of the global fiat-debt monetary system.  
  
Would a profit spending multipool boost CGB’s value?  
Artificial demand, which has nothing to do with the intended use of CGB, provides no long term value. This type of scheme would increase volatility (not a benefit to wealth storage), and reduce our credibility through a lack of fundamental understanding of CGB’s proper role. We can look at previous cases and conclude that the new multipool idea itself is what caused the demand, not the underlying asset being bought. We need to focus our efforts on projects which bring real value to those who use CGB to store wealth.  
  
Is low mining profitability bad for CGB?  
Remember that CGB has, for the past year, allocated the majority of the currency supply that will ever be, through mining. As we transition to the capitalization phase of CGB, this low mining reward is part of the reason why investors will find CGB so appealing. With less “money printing (mining),” our annual inflation is approaching its permanent target of 2% growth/year through mining and minting. This is the natural progression of CGB.  
  
There has been a lot of interesting discussion on Reddit about getting CGB into the hands of communities through local interaction and a holistic multi-service approach. Community involvement is needed, ask the tough questions, get involved! We encourage you all to participate and give your thoughts on those ideas and the ones discussed in this post!  
  
The CGB Core Team  

[papersheepdog]

Yeh, I would appreciate information about trading on Cryptsy. I am . . . ahem . . . actually just learning to actually trade.

(Indiamikezulu divides labour. I have always done the analyses and the networking. Never traded a crypto til last week!)

And are there any Australian CGB-ers here? Even just two of us can start working on a development project.

Hey Mark! Check out this infographic found on the Get CGB page of the CGB Official Website. It was intended for helping people to get CGB through Paypal, but you can just focus on the last few steps of trading BTC for CGB. Let me know how it goes!

[IMZ]

Taa, Paper. I will tackle it shortly. We are staggering under the load of tryin' to figure The Latest Australia Coin. Can't ignore something like that on your home turf.

But I am back on Bitcointalk. Been off for ages.

Mark

[papersheepdog]

Taa, Paper. I will tackle it shortly. We are staggering under the load of tryin' to figure The Latest Australia Coin. Can't ignore something like that on your home turf.

But I am back on Bitcointalk. Been off for ages.

Mark

Watch out for distraction, there's lots of it. Ozziecoin doesn't look even salvageable. Let it die, can always re-launch if actual Australians maybe tried to make it....

[elambert]

CGB Core Team Weekly Update – May 14, 2014

Please also see the Reddit post for further discussion.

Cryptogenic Bullion is a unique crypto and to understand its value, research is required. This is one of the problems that we face as a community when trying to explain the merits of CGB. Where most other coins are caught up in a massive churning of pumps, excitement, scams, mining, and other daily activities of the crypto-scene, Cryptogenic Bullion seems to sit patiently on the sidelines and observe these generally undisciplined behaviors. We would like to quickly explain some of the reasons why promotion and adoption of CGB is very different from most other crypto-currencies.  
  
As explained in this post on Reddit, CGB derives its value by holding it as a more stable store of wealth. This contrasts starkly with what gives most other cryptos out there value, which is the size of the userbase who is holding to spend. Cryptogenic Bullion investors are holding to store wealth or anticipate such demand and there are many factors which better suit CGB for this role above the others. Please see the section on CGB’s Life Cycle on the Learn More page of the Official Website for more detailed information on the bigger picture of CGB and how it builds value.
  
Let’s quickly go over the motivations for holding CGB compared to the motivations for holding a daily spending currency such as Doge. CGB is designed to be held to store wealth. The more people who are holding CGB to store wealth, the more scarce CGB will be and greater the unit value. Currencies such as Doge are designed to be spent and used on a daily bases. The more people who are holding Doge to spend, the more scarce Doge becomes and the greater the unit value. Notice that investors can profit from increases in these types of demand, and purchasing accordingly in order to sell at the higher prices once demand is realized. These two use cases are fundamentally different and require a different approach to promote the adoption of each.  

Here are a few questions that have been recently asked and some guidance on how to proceed:  
  
Is merchant development a goal for CGB?
As CGB is intended to store wealth and not to expand through retail activity directly, merchant development is a goal for CGB but not in the typical way. Our strategy would be to encourage merchants who already accept other crypto to store their wealth in CGB, and consider accepting CGB alongside their existing currency selection.  
  
Is getting listed on more exchanges a goal for CGB?  
While it doesn’t hurt to be listed on more exchanges, low volume exchanges with a small user base offer very little value to the CGB community. Exchanges with a large user base would be helpful, especially if there are traders willing to make profit from arbitrage providing liquidity to this user base, and activity on CGB trading pairs.  

Does low current volume and price hinder CGB’s advance as a store of wealth?  
I urge everyone who asks this question to read CGB’s Life Cycle to understand the transition that CGB is currently undergoing. We also have to also look at the bigger picture of the crypto-markets which have suffered overall from Bitcoin’s recent decline. These are normal cycles that happen. When capital begins to flow inward again on a massive scale, it may be triggered by worries of hyperinflation, or other fiat currency problems. Fleeing investors may be looking for an asset which does not have the heavy inflationary tax of the very system they are fleeing. Cryptogenic Bullion will be perfectly poised, having completed its volatile inflationary phase, and awaiting the inflows of its capitalization phase. Our strategy is optimized for CGB to benefit from the increasing troubles of the global fiat-debt monetary system.  
  
Would a profit spending multipool boost CGB’s value?  
Artificial demand, which has nothing to do with the intended use of CGB, provides no long term value. This type of scheme would increase volatility (not a benefit to wealth storage), and reduce our credibility through a lack of fundamental understanding of CGB’s proper role. We can look at previous cases and conclude that the new multipool idea itself is what caused the demand, not the underlying asset being bought. We need to focus our efforts on projects which bring real value to those who use CGB to store wealth.  
  
Is low mining profitability bad for CGB?  
Remember that CGB has, for the past year, allocated the majority of the currency supply that will ever be, through mining. As we transition to the capitalization phase of CGB, this low mining reward is part of the reason why investors will find CGB so appealing. With less “money printing (mining),” our annual inflation is approaching its permanent target of 2% growth/year through mining and minting. This is the natural progression of CGB.  
  
There has been a lot of interesting discussion on Reddit about getting CGB into the hands of communities through local interaction and a holistic multi-service approach. Community involvement is needed, ask the tough questions, get involved! We encourage you all to participate and give your thoughts on those ideas and the ones discussed in this post!  
  
The CGB Core Team  

OP updated, thank you PSD!

[digit]

Digit, I don't have anywhere near as much as you, but can you say a bit more about the manipulation you observe at cryptsy?  I'm thinking about getting into more active trading but I'm pretty new so I'm trying to learn more first.

I'm just a little fish in the CGB world

About manipulation not everyone would see it this as that but one of ways that can be seen is fake volume being created on a coin by a single user eg with enough btc i can repeatedly sell/buy into my own orders.  Doing this i can create the impression of ALOT of trading activity which adds to the illusion of an exchange being popular/large number of traders and force the price to shift in direction i want. This is even easier to accomplish when the distribution is concentrated/centralized or only exists on one exchange.  100 BTC 24hr volume a user can use their own self-trading to get those numbers. it can be as simple as 10 x 10BTC worth of that coin bought and sold over the day. Of course someone will not be that obvious about it, and it could even be considered an art to create a natural looking pattern.  

Preventing single users from self-trading can help reduce this and make it a little more difficult and it would mean to create the same deception would required multiple accounts to be used and funded.  If there is some regulation standard for an exchange then i would assume they would also be expected to monitor and flagged this type of behavior especially if it could be seen same ips being used to manipulate a coin.  Also exchanges that dont allow self-trading means users are less likely to panic if a big dump occurs which as far as anyone knows could be one person simply dumping a huge amount of coin into their own orders.

Any long time users of cryptsy will have also seen when new coins are listed there, an inflated buy order will magically sit there for hours while deposits are held.  There may be a good reason for this but the effects of it that after users get their coins the price immediately plummets and the exchange now controls a large amount of coin that is unlikely to be withdrawn.  

Here is a couple of posts about previously glitches from other users
Cryptsy Warning - Glitch Detected - Buying more coins than balance should allow!
Cryptsy Double Spends are Back. Trade with Extreme Caution- See for Yourself
You can find more examples of it and others w google but its leaves the question that if a coin can be "oversold" or "overbought", even if the audit corrects the balances so those users owe the exchange, how much of the glitched coin has already been traded?  
Google results - https://www.google.com/search?q=cryptsy+balance+negative

For a coin like CGB i think this is important to considered the effect of glitches combined with it being centralized on an exchange where this has happened more then once eg: more coins existing in the orderbooks/users accounts (who bought the glitched coins) then the exchange holds in their wallets.  
Imbalances could maybe be fixed over time and are probaby a a non-issue with coins that have ridiculous 100B supply/high reward etc.  But for coin like CGB where scarcity is one of the main benefits of holding this would be upset if significant amounts were to exist in this type of fractional reserve accidentally created by glitches.

Also I doubt that dishonest users who deliberately took advantage of trade glitches when it existed will fix their audited accounts or they might wait until a more favorable price in the coin they oversold can be used to fix their accounts at later date (eg considerable amount of BTC locked up because of negative WDC balance).  Honest traders who accidentally oversold a coin have found themselves in situations where they to had buy back the oversold amount and this really cost them if the coin has jumped in value by a huge amount.  Cryptsy doesn't consider themselves at fault when these trade glitches happen and users are expected pay up or cannot withdraw any of their altcoins they have on exchange.

I had this happen to me a few times way back simply when Cryptsy had severe lag issues (DDoS/order flooding it was never made clear why) I went to sell some grandcoin which i had bought a month back for 40-50 satoshis, it had gone up pass 200 satoshis so a good time to sell what i had. I placed my sell order - nothing happened.  Refreshed and i see coins are still available to place so i try again to place a sell order and again nothing happens. I assume the lag is preventing my order not going so  i try again a couple more times until I refresh and find that site does not even load now. Decided to return later in a few hours and i find that Cryptsy has now sold ALL my GDC + GDC amount that did not exist.  I receive the BTC from selling but am left with negative amount of GDC. Unfortunately for me at that time GDC price has gone more then what i sold for and so I'm in a situation where i have to buy back or deposit to fix my balance at my own cost if i want to be able to withdraw. Luckily i had GDC i could deposit there so it was not too costly to fix my balance at my own expense.  But it left me and others very cautious about trading or leaving large amounts of coins there especially if its BTC, LTC or CGB.

There is barely any trading going on and no buying pressure to counter the possible dumping of PoS blocks by cryptsy itself? I don't know how big their wallet is.

With a multipool at least you create some constant buying support and keep the price where it is (or maybe higher?).

Its not the magic answer to getting the price up, and more effective solution for 100% PoS coin that has low inflation.  CGB is mixed PoW/PoS but i think it can be effective because it does have low block reward/low inflation.  One interesting scenario that might exist if CGB price were to rise too quickly as result of CGB multipools, we might see 100% PoS coins multipools might switch mining it while the profitablilty was there.  Crazy crypto world  

[patmast3r]

I understand that the long term plan has always been to provide a way to store value i.e. a bullion. I just don't see this happening with the price being so freaking volatile.

Color me worried ! 

[BTCat]

The Altcoin Song! An Ode to Bitcoin Alternatives

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtJ2XtKFELA

[IMZ]

Morning, guys.

email-able crypto!  [My bad: I said sms-able earlier]

Better yet, it doesn't represent a threat -- though I still have real concerns about the currency itself at this stage -- they want $3;30 from every Australian.

Any of you have any experience with M-pesa? Kenya's sms-able crypto? Are there sms-able cryptos anywhere else?

Are they a good idea? This currency claims to be essentially a non-profit instrument for explaining cryptos.

Mark Blair, Unicup, Western Austalia

[110110101]

The Altcoin Song! An Ode to Bitcoin Alternatives

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtJ2XtKFELA

Nice!
Hadn't heard of this song, nice mention of CGB as well.

[IMZ]

Hey, Patmast3r.

Relativity!! Weird stuff is happening, and it's gonna get way weirder. Crypto bullion is still a crypto. That is, it's as bullion-ish as a crypto can be, and we wanna be in cryptos . . . so CGB is a good painted horsie to ride on the carousel!

Mark Blair, Unicup, Western Australia

[IMZ]

If a single CGB person in Australia is interested, we could look for merchants here. Coming months will be prime time, as The Bull Run gets underway.

Mark Blair, Western Australia

[elambert]

If a single CGB person in Australia is interested, we could look for merchants here. Coming months will be prime time, as The Bull Run gets underway.

Mark Blair, Western Australia

Mark,
I know we have some other Aussie's in the CGB family. I just tweeted a link to your Reddit posting. Hopefully this helps to catch their attention
https://twitter.com/cryptogenicbull/status/467623627521662976

[IMZ]

Thank you, Elambert. I am now on Twitter.

Next Wednesday, we will drop off five jam and chutney gift packs to Influential People in Denmark, with a note saying, 'These Yummy Products were paid for with Litecoin' -- the coin we started the development project with.

We are half way through our budget, and have four businesses in the district accepting Doge and Litecoin. But I think we will move to:

Litecoin = local alternative currency
Bitcoin = Big Gun to draw in tourists
CGB = Coin for Those Who Really 'Get It'

Latest tactic: I have bought $50 worth of CGB, and I am gonna give it to two local merchants. One is a Litecoiner (thanks to us). The other is a medical professional libertarian who has agreed to meet and discuss crypto-acceptance in his practice.

The important thing, we have learned, is to do the hard yards to get a solid stake in the ground -- like a Local Government Office accepting two cryptos.

Gonna wait 'til the Big New Wallet is out, and then launch a micro-network of CGB users 'woven into' the Project.

It will include a micro coin-exchange 'X-wipping' LTC/CGB.

All I need is a little community support (like I've been getting from PSD since Day One).

Mark Blair,

[kelsey]

I'm Aussie been in CGB from early on.
tbh though I don't know of many Aussie's using twitter, and don't know any using reddit (which I'd never even heard of until on this forum semi recently).

[IMZ]

Oh, wow! This is good news, Kelsey. My mob is not actually quite yet CGB-ers. What we are is 'regional developers' here in Oz, specifically on-da-street development.

We are -- tiny budget -- pioneering a range of innovative (human-based) development tactics. Now, it's unfair of me to simply expect you to jump through my hoop. I must make a good case. Here it is:

One: the coin is a fine one, and perhaps unique in its type. Two: more importantly, the (technical) dev team has been on board and active all along -- and a year is a long time in this game. Three: IndiaMikeZulu is looking for a small community, in which our energy and novel ideas will gain hold. Four: if that happens, we will be able to significantly influence CGB's price and viability.

I have started an Australian commercial-development workshop at gotcrypto over at Reddit. It focuses on our Denmark, Western Australia, Project.

H o w e v e r . . . if we can find just three or four CGB-ers here in Oz who have the moxy to do what we do (it's time-consuming and requires some fiat outlay; requires good people skills), then we could duplicate our Project in other places.

Ten months ago, we had a ten-oz bar of silver bullion for sale in crypto valued in Australian Dollars -- no takers. Ahead of our time.

And today? Goin' gangbusters, Kelsey -- an IGA supermarket comes on line next Wednesday. It's a trial -- what we call 'proto' -- but it's real.

Where you at?

Mark Blair, Unicup, W.A.

[BTCat]

Here's a good oversight of CGB marketcap. Plus some social media mentions.

http://www.cryptocoinrank.com/CGBullion

or

http://coinmarketcap.com/all.html  currently nr. 129
http://coinmarketcap.com/cgb_180.html  180 day chart

Ofcourse charts are also here:
http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/period-charts.php?period=alltime&resolution=day&pair=cgb-btc&market=cryptsy

[IMZ]

Btcat, this is awesome!! Thank thank you for your energy!!

And bingo!! IMZ owes a non-crypto-person supporter $500 fiat; but he suggested taking it in crypto. I will allocate half in Litecoin and half in CGB. He's not a merchant, but it's a start.

Strange thing: I only just learned that the reason we have had 'hung transactions' with Dogecoin is a fact of our geography. Now, I have a real respect for the vibrancy of the Dogecoiners. They taught us all a lesson. But Doge has gotta go from the Denmark Project. Having a trial-adoption merchant wind up with a bunch of unconfirmed transactions would be a bullet in the back of the skull for the Project.

This doesn't put CGB quite in the ring yet -- indeed, we are moving to Bitcoin because we need a Big Gun for the tourism trade -- but it certainly gives it more wiggle room.

Have any Australian CGB-ers considered a micro exchange for CGB in Australian Dollars? (and I am angling to sell 10-oz bars of silver bullion) We pioneered this ten months ago:

You register a '.com.au' Website. ($50) Then you open a super simple bourse, buying and selling 'packets' of CGB in Australia Dollars. It's unprofitable, time-consuming, and unprofitable; but it is an awesome commercial-development ploy.

You can remove the automated exchanges from the trial-adoption process. It's undoubtedly a major hurdle to commercial adoption.

My survey of Australian Bitcoin-accepting businesses (I spoke on the phone to about 25% of them, and have kept the network alive) revealed that the actual volume of sales at present is still low.

This means that you won't have to do a lot of trades on the micro bourse (but ya gotta update the prices every morning).

(The only place in the English-speaking world where you can 'X-wip' the 'Dokdo,' the South Korean national crypto, is on indiamikezulu's micro bourse. We don't expect to make a buck out of it, but it has been a fabulous experience in networking. There has so far been only one international commercial transaction in that currency, and it was between us and the Dokdo dev team. Think of how we might slot CGB in later!!)

Mark Blair, Unicup, Western Australia

[BTCat]

Australian crypto exchange (no CGB yet) :

https://www.coinspot.com.au/tradecoins