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Author Topic: There are ONLY 6 REAL projects here on this entire board outside of the top 10??  (Read 986 times)
cau
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November 30, 2017, 06:29:08 PM
 #21

Your thread was a good wake up call to reassess the way I am building my portfolio. I tried to put my list, that's the time I realized majority (40-50%) of my chosen coins are still in paper as a concept. (I share few coins, which you already quoted).

Time for me to have this in my checklist while short listing the coins.
katlogic
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November 30, 2017, 07:36:51 PM
Last edit: November 30, 2017, 08:08:21 PM by katlogic
 #22

bitbay and blocknet and byteball to be clones of bitcoin?

Blocknet and Bitbay are, in the stringent sense, "just bitcoin base hacked a bit". The reason im averse to that is that these overwhelmingly can't transcend what bitcoin already does in any meaningful manner and you get grotesque supernode perversions like dash.

Don't throw ByteBall in that mix though. Byteball is perfectly fine and im quite fond of it (that's why its in honorable mentions), but it's not technically trustless cryptocurrency in satoshian sense. It's a web of trust DAG, semantically more related to Ripple. It's a notable difference from Iota, where each transaction carries PoW proof (you can reframe iota as bitcoin where each transaction has its own block, but you can't do that for BB).

Quote
Are you mainly trying to find NEW technology altogether that is real NEW from scratch development?

Indeed. It may seem asinine at first, but hear me out: People don't write new implementations just because they like the additional work, but because its often imperative to innovate. The only exception to the rule I've encountered is Sia, which for some odd reason is written from scratch, yet is technically very uninspiring and could work just as well as a bitcoin or some other codebase fork. The opposite is things like Ethereum - it'd be far more effort trying to bend bitcoin into that, hence why it is separate codebase from scratch.

Of course there's silver lining to the black and white thinking, and certain forks have proven innovative for one reason or another, but usually tend to be just mere extension of the original. A canonical example of this is Namecoin. It had its utility back then, and it was well engineered and everything, and it made sense to just fork bitcoin to do this. But it wasn't certainly that revolutionary, in fact, you could run the same service on bitcoin's chain, too.

Not everything is sunshine in the "from scratch" space. Tendermint and Maid come to mind as a massive clusterfuck of naivete and poor understanding, but it could be just growing pains.

edit: clarify why iota is trustless and byteball isnt
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November 30, 2017, 09:37:39 PM
 #23

bitbay and blocknet and byteball to be clones of bitcoin?

Blocknet and Bitbay are, in the stringent sense, "just bitcoin base hacked a bit". The reason im averse to that is that these overwhelmingly can't transcend what bitcoin already does in any meaningful manner and you get grotesque supernode perversions like dash.

Don't throw ByteBall in that mix though. Byteball is perfectly fine and im quite fond of it (that's why its in honorable mentions), but it's not technically trustless cryptocurrency in satoshian sense. It's a web of trust DAG, semantically more related to Ripple. It's a notable difference from Iota, where each transaction carries PoW proof (you can reframe iota as bitcoin where each transaction has its own block, but you can't do that for BB).

Quote
Are you mainly trying to find NEW technology altogether that is real NEW from scratch development?

Indeed. It may seem asinine at first, but hear me out: People don't write new implementations just because they like the additional work, but because its often imperative to innovate. The only exception to the rule I've encountered is Sia, which for some odd reason is written from scratch, yet is technically very uninspiring and could work just as well as a bitcoin or some other codebase fork. The opposite is things like Ethereum - it'd be far more effort trying to bend bitcoin into that, hence why it is separate codebase from scratch.

Of course there's silver lining to the black and white thinking, and certain forks have proven innovative for one reason or another, but usually tend to be just mere extension of the original. A canonical example of this is Namecoin. It had its utility back then, and it was well engineered and everything, and it made sense to just fork bitcoin to do this. But it wasn't certainly that revolutionary, in fact, you could run the same service on bitcoin's chain, too.

Not everything is sunshine in the "from scratch" space. Tendermint and Maid come to mind as a massive clusterfuck of naivete and poor understanding, but it could be just growing pains.

edit: clarify why iota is trustless and byteball isnt

Thank you for your explanation. I understand what you are getting at and yes you are correct it is different to my other thread trying to identify projects that have real development and use cases but are not essentially innovative ( creating new from scratch designs) at their core. Some (or most) are variations of already proven tech but given new overlays that add utility or make it easier to apply to certain use cases. I totally get what you say when you comment these things are not transcending what is possible with bitcoin. Although both of these projects you mention i accept like 99% of wave one alts are bitcoin hacks i do think both if completed will provide a nice trustless decentralised service for what they are aiming at and are part of a group of select REAL projects that exist with proven dev teams. I see that only the most innovative and creative new designs from the ground up are what interests you.

Have you read any of anonymints posts? regarding sia ( he posed the proof of storage idea years before anyone else i believe) i think he said sia can never work (well proof of storage not just sia) so he abandoned the idea*** if i am misrepresenting what he said then that is my fault for not understanding it... Not only him but a few top devs have said iota will eventually fail when the training wheels are taken off at some point. So these designs although they seem very interesting could be fatal.  Now of course I do not have the technical chops to know a good design from a flawed one but In time with wide usage I guess we will see if they work or not. I am not betting against either of them but it is perhaps to early to tell if they are good new designs (have enough advatages over btc to merit any down sides they may have) or just different designs to bitcoin. I mean if bitcoin did turn out to be the best design we still have after a few years then those running hacks on top of it to provide great use cases that are not immediately there with just bitcoin then they are hopefully still going to have great value.

Regarding bitbay however... although currently it runs on pos3 that code base is open to being altered. I believe DZ (bitbay dev) is in future looking at a few different possibilities. It hasn't as yet so i'm just talking dreams and talk until it has happened. I do think though he is capable of pretty much anything so when he tells me he is looking at doing it i do believe him.

There is radix coming out I think that could be of interest to you since i have heard this is a real project but as yet is only in test net. I think this will be a new design. He apparently tried dag years back but discounted it due to reasons beyond my understanding and seems a very good developer.

I hold to my belief so far though that there are very very very few Real developers here that have the chops to make something other than like you say a standard clone of what we have with straight forward bitcoin.

One point you did make which i think is valid too is that sometimes the key devs that develop something new don't always end up with the best project based on their design. I mean take monero... I am not sure exactly but are the devs that made bytecoin (was this the original) even involved with monero? I did hear that the main designer of crytponote was CZ the dev of boolberry. However a few years back he kind of abandoned it or rather just left it to start another project. He still posts here and there but not too much. Either way right now monero seems king of that code base and the others...not so much.

Anyway nice to hear what you had to say.

can i please know your opinion on xby and xrb ? these seem interesting but for a layman as myself impossible to tell if they have merit fully.








katlogic
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November 30, 2017, 11:34:16 PM
 #24

Have you read any of anonymints posts? regarding sia ( he posed the proof of storage idea years before anyone else i believe) i think he said sia can never work (well proof of storage not just sia) so he abandoned the idea*** if i am misrepresenting what he said then that is my fault for not understanding it...

No, you got it right. Sia and Storj are not proof of storage, closest existing thing atm is BURST, and even that is seriously flawed, and that's just mere proof of erasure.

Not only him but a few top devs have said iota will eventually fail when the training wheels are taken off at some point.

Although a bit better theory-wise, IOTA is currently in very bad shape (mostly thanks to shoddy implementation). It relies on node trust, otherwise you could take it down with a moderate GPU mining rig. My opinion on it is basically "another maidsafe, perhaps marginally safer this time".

Quote
So these designs although they seem very interesting could be fatal.

Definitely, especially if the implementation is new, it's to be expected to be buggy for few years. Out of the bunch it was probably NXT with most famous glaring holes which were (luckily) silently patched. By extension, incidents like TheDAO bring all this to another meta level.

Quote
I am not betting against either of them but it is perhaps to early to tell if they are good new designs (have enough advatages over btc to merit any down sides they may have) or just different designs to bitcoin.

Claims to "replace" bitcoin is to be viewed with extreme suspicion. Personaly I'm looking for things branching out into spheres Bitcoin definitely cant do in its current shape.

Quote
I mean if bitcoin did turn out to be the best design we still have after a few years then those running hacks on top of it to provide great use cases that are not immediately there with just bitcoin then they are hopefully still going to have great value.

Bitcoin is arguably not the *best*, the strength of bitcoin is it's *conservative* design. Bitcoin is, for all intents and purposes, the first, most minimal (in terms of theory) and most tested implementation of trustless CC. Which bank would you prefer, one with 100 year tradition with history of prudence as well as various conservative warts from 100 year ago, or a new flashy hip startup?

Quote
Regarding bitbay however... although currently it runs on pos3 that code base is open to being altered. I believe DZ (bitbay dev) is in future looking at a few different possibilities. It hasn't as yet so i'm just talking dreams and talk until it has happened. I do think though he is capable of pretty much anything so when he tells me he is looking at doing it i do believe him.

Even the major ones like NXT, MasterCoin, BitShares all lost against counterparty and later eth. It's a risky bet to think blackhalo could fare better this time.

In terms of pure sales pitch, CLTV implementations like blocknet (or something similiar with fancy UX) are better in the near term. In the longterm, every bitcoin fork and their mom pulled CLTV from upstream, making no room for any intermediary currency for x-swaps, it would just add to the spread.

Quote
There is radix coming out I think that could be of interest to you since i have heard this is a real project but as yet is only in test net. I think this will be a new design. He apparently tried dag years back but discounted it due to reasons beyond my understanding and seems a very good developer.

eMunie sure knows how to keep hype for 3 years. Whenever this is done, there's usually good reason for there being no single line of code in years, and when something finally shows up, the results tend to be underwhelming. Though I'd love to be proven wrong.

Quote
I hold to my belief so far though that there are very very very few Real developers here that have the chops to make something other than like you say a standard clone of what we have with straight forward bitcoin.

One point you did make which i think is valid too is that sometimes the key devs that develop something new don't always end up with the best project based on their design. I mean take monero... I am not sure exactly but are the devs that made bytecoin (was this the original) even involved with monero? I did hear that the main designer of crytponote was CZ the dev of boolberry. However a few years back he kind of abandoned it or rather just left it to start another project. He still posts here and there but not too much. Either way right now monero seems king of that code base and the others...not so much.

Monero is quite unique because of its bullshit inception story, luckily it's not that common. Indeed in terms of "original", it should be probably clarified "the most accepted by the community". Given that monero was the first non-scammy fork of cryptonote at the time (though even there rumors exist that monero devs knew about the AES exploit). Whatever, it's the "original" now.

Quote
Anyway nice to hear what you had to say.

can i please know your opinion on xby and xrb ? these seem interesting but for a layman as myself impossible to tell if they have merit fully.

XBY is generic rubbish. Didn't know about raiblocks until now, looks somewhat original, albeit not really sure yet as I had only cursory look at its cowboyish consensus code.




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December 01, 2017, 01:54:00 AM
 #25

@katlogic

thanks for those replies. Very helpful and informative.

Damn I thought xby had something novel going for it. This is the problem with trying to invest in things you really don't understand.

Would be excellent if new popular projects (ones with some hype and reasonable following) were all given a thorough deep analysis by persons with a proven skillset in this arena. I'm surprised that a group of savvy investors have not grouped together to engage the real minds here to give deep analysis to new seemingly exciting projects. Then again perhaps they actually have already done this. Or perhaps the savvy investors are the real minds who understand all of these designs and their real chances long term.

For now the best we can try to do is at the very least compile a list of real projects that even if long term do not at a deep level break free of being "hacks of btc" but do offer some specific use cases and demonstrate the developers do have some skill set that is relevant to working on trustless decentralised projects. Whilst keep looking for that new design that brings a real leap in solving some of the things that btc struggles with whilst not throwing up a lot of new issues or risks.






cau
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December 01, 2017, 03:30:55 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2017, 04:14:47 AM by cau
 #26

XBY is generic rubbish.

Hello Katlogic - the above statement is too generic, if you really don't mind can you please help me to understand more on the negative side of it, is your conclusion based on code review? I mean on technical side or fundamental of the project?

Positives in my view -
PoSign new consensus and every transactions need to be signed by their "static nodes".
Project is trying to build an ecosystem where anyone can build -
DApps,
X-Vault (decentralized storage)
X-change (decentralized exchange, with some incentive scheme)
SHA 512 algorithm
Few other concepts like Vitals, Pulse, DICOM and many more in their forum
10K transactions per second, nearly cannot have scalability issue
With PoSign concept said to be having attack proof (51% or Quantum)
XFuel is a proof of working PoSign and static node testing in progress

Negatives in my view -
Even to few of genuine questions, no direct answer
In other communities, usually community manager or project person speaks about project rather than coin price. In fact ceiling limit of 650K is also designed keeping in mind that there wont be inflation, so price will sky rocket.

It would be really nice, if you can help me with your findings....
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December 01, 2017, 03:38:58 AM
 #27

Rentberry... ICO starts next week, I think....
Already a successful business. They want to expand
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December 01, 2017, 03:54:57 AM
 #28

As far I can tell, current "real" projects are (roughly by date of conception).

* Bitcoin
* NXT
* Cryptonote (now Monero)
* BitShares (now Steemit)
* Ethereum
* Sia
* Iota
* Waves (reimplementation of NXT to be more ETH-like)
* Cardano
* Tezos

(i'm sure i've missed something, please tell if you know about others)

By real I consider complete and often highly innovative codebase from scratch, not just copying and bending previous stuff, nor piggybacking on existing networks (tokens).

Vast majority of alts out there is just bitcoin slightly tweaked.

Honorable mentions, as those are not satoshian BFT blockchains, but interesting nevertheless in their own right:
* Ripple
* Storj (modern seti@home for spare disk space)
* Byteball (TX DAG)
* Hyperledger ("Consensus" of non-deterministic contracts)
* Many chains like zcash or dash, though highly divergent, are still ultimately rooted in the bitcoin codebase

As for how to deal with the clones, those are not necessarily a scam, often it makes sense to just copy the base and slightly tweak it. Bitcoin had many influental forks (such as Litecoin, Peercoin or Blackcoin) and to a lesser degree NXT.

edit: added more OC implementations


These are great projects to mention.

Also, I would like to add some:
* Raiden (ETH scalability)
* PundiX (have a working product, terminals to pay and buy crypto, going to enter Chinese and Russian market)
* Blackmoon Crypto (connection between crypto and traditional investments)
* Wishfinance (already working credit service)
* Gladius (cybersecurity)

I believe these projects will shine in 2018
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December 01, 2017, 03:56:30 AM
 #29

Now this is the type of post that is productive and resourceful. Ill
katlogic
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December 01, 2017, 08:58:58 AM
 #30

Hello Katlogic - the above statement is too generic, if you really don't mind can you please help me to understand more on the negative side of it.  is your conclusion based on code review? I mean on technical side or fundamental of the project?

It's just renamed bitmox, fork of early dash with pos added or somesuch.

Quote
Positives in my view -

All marketing rubbish none of which exists at best, and probably for the better because most of it is just pretty hilarious wordsalad.

Quote
Even to few of genuine questions, no direct answer

This might be of some help:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1742783.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1793468.0

Chances are high the guy is the same one and just trying to flip the coins from ico scam by pumping the pony he's got, another common trick in the book. That CCRevolution guy seems to be responsible for one of the most insane technobabble buzzwords I've seen tho, I really want to smoke the shit he's doing.
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December 01, 2017, 12:30:52 PM
Last edit: December 01, 2017, 01:07:51 PM by cau
 #31

Thanks Katlogic for your time! I have some portion of holdings and I was contemplating myself to add few more to host a node, if I understand correct you have question on their funda itself

I see, X-Fuel is out there with working PoSign and "Static Node" in testing phase, these are the two main reasons why my confidence went sky high before I come across you.... its matter of time now to see where it is heading. For now, let me put a hold neither buy nor sell

Incidentally I have high hopes on Maid as well  Grin Grin (These two guys, sounds great in paper and I do wish they deliver what was promised)
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December 03, 2017, 09:22:17 PM
 #32

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2479595.0

I created this thread and yet there are no projects at ALL that meet the criteria in the OP ??

There are really only 6 real projects on this entire board that are not scams that are not in the top 10 that have real use cases?

That is totally crazy.

If true why isn't everyone investing in them then??

Surely there must be others??

Nobody can present even 1 other?

I think we should collate a list of REAL projects with REAL use cases.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2479595.0

if you want one added go there and structure your case for it to be added as others have done so other members can see why it deserves to be called a REAL project.



Waves and Sys are the only coins that I can agree upon. The other coins are just well...there.

 
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December 03, 2017, 09:28:35 PM
 #33

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2479595.0

I created this thread and yet there are no projects at ALL that meet the criteria in the OP ??

There are really only 6 real projects on this entire board that are not scams that are not in the top 10 that have real use cases?

That is totally crazy.

If true why isn't everyone investing in them then??

Surely there must be others??

Nobody can present even 1 other?

I think we should collate a list of REAL projects with REAL use cases.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2479595.0

if you want one added go there and structure your case for it to be added as others have done so other members can see why it deserves to be called a REAL project.



Waves and Sys are the only coins that I can agree upon. The other coins are just well...there.


Always good to hear other peoples POV.

Can you tell me why you don't think komodo, bitbay, blocknet and pivx are not REAL projects or that you dont agree.

There are no right or wrong answers. Everyones opinion is valid.

Have you examined any of the others and if so what made you decide they were not real projects or failed to meet one or more of the criteria in the OP.

I agree sys and waves are real projects so no argument there.

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